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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 23 Jan 19 - 04:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 19 - 05:09 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 07:07 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 07:10 AM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM
Jack Campin 23 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 10:50 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 10:58 AM
keberoxu 23 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 12:26 PM
DMcG 23 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM
Iains 23 Jan 19 - 01:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM
keberoxu 23 Jan 19 - 02:13 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 02:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 19 - 02:57 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM
Senoufou 23 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM
Jos 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 PM
Senoufou 23 Jan 19 - 04:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 19 - 05:39 PM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 19 - 07:50 PM
robomatic 23 Jan 19 - 08:35 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 19 - 09:10 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 01:46 AM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 01:55 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 02:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 03:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 07:50 AM
bobad 24 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM
The Sandman 24 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jan 19 - 09:41 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:50 AM

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC:

there was no intelligence pointing to an increased level of attacks after Brexit, but added: "What's most concerning me... is its potential to divide communities and set communities against each other."

But the loopy left also poses a threat!
Britain’s most dangerous export: Corbynism. From Europe's premium policy intelligence service

https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-left-uk-europe-britains-most-dangerous-export-corbynism/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 05:09 AM

Tory MP asks for help from Poland

What a twerp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:07 AM

Just in case anyone is wondering why a leading BrexShiteer would move his business to Singapore...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:10 AM

....should have said, "A leading BrexShiteer who preaches Patriotism to the rest of us". Like charity, Patriotism should begin at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM

Here's another idea - require all people who are paid to enter national public services (ie MPs, MEPs) to publish their tax returns for all countries in which they declare income for the rest of tier lives, with a 7 figure penalty for failing to do so, doubling each year. Although this would be an imposition for the majority of MPs, MEPs, it would show who does have their nose in the trough benefiting from the disarray caused by leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

Some more spiffing news about brexit!

The Remoaners at the ‘Fair Vote Project’ have suffered a humiliating legal defeat in the High Court in their attempts to force the Government to hold a “Mueller-style inquiry” into the EU referendum. The ‘Fair Vote Project’ was essentially set up as a front group for the so-called Brexit whistleblowers with the backing of the cranks at Byline and ultra-Remainers Best for Britain – the sole director, Kyle Taylor, was previously Field Campaigns Director for Best for Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM

Arts Council factsheet on the effect of Brexit on the arts in the UK.

You're fucked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM

I can’t see any reason why all tax returns aren't publicly accessible, the same way the details of wills are, and the prices at which houses have been sold.
..............................

Those like Theresa May who go on endlessly blaring out about how a fresh referendum would be an affront to democracy and will cause social disruption are in fact acting in a way that must encourage such disruption, by providing justification for it. I rather think that is intentional, pulling in the threat of the mob to intimidate opponents.

Other countries which compare very favourably indeed to the UK when it comes to democratic practices, and a commitment to democratic principles have had second referendum on related issues about the E.U. In the case of Denmark and Ireland the public voted the other way next time, in the case of Norway, they confirmed their decision not to join the EU.

Nobody knows what the majority view in the UK is now. If we think that matters, a referendum at least provides a mechanism for finding that out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM

After exploring the links within links in Jack's post below...
All you folks will probably be referred to 150 different websites to stay abreast of the new rules and the conflicting rules that you will still be subject to.

Better keep your smart phones charged if you even want to travel or buy bread and water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:50 AM

I'm encouraged to see the self control shown so far in this thread. It's quite easy really, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:58 AM

Now you've been and went and gone and done it! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

Gentlemen! gentlemen! -- and everyone else as well --

it's hugely entertaining for a USA ignoramus like me
to watch you working through all of this.

I was unaware that anyone had called some of you 'bastards.'
Not even Max, to my knowledge, called you that,
and at one point he was genuinely upset with you.

The phrase I heard from a moderator was
"sour testosterone."
Hmmm ... wonder if a UK moderator would make a difference?

Okay, I'll go back to keeping my head down, and listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM

keberoxu. Hilarious. More posts please!

Meanwhile back at the ranch:

Interesting polling by Number Cruncher Politics which asked voters to choose their least acceptable Brexit outcomes rather than just their favourites. The study reveals that remaining in the EU is the least acceptable Brexit outcome to the British electorate,

Another wily ruse is to suspend Parliament. That'll fix em!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:26 PM

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances. Please don't ask for any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM

Apparently Rees-Mogg has said it would be "a constitutional outrage" if the moves by Cooper et al end up with Parliament deciding it should block Brexit. To prevent this he raises the idea of proroguing Parliament if that outcome appears likely.

The whole rationale of Parliament is to agree on solution to problems like our current mess. If it looks likely to do so and then action is taken to shut it down to prevent it doing do - well, I know which looks a bigger constitutional outrage to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:02 PM

I'm not sure if it's different across the Atlantic, but here "bastards" isn't really particularly strong. Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

"Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke""
Suggest you look in your PM box Mac
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:55 PM

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances.
pack it in shaw. you are gettingh boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM

that would be a great advertising line

Fishermans Friends....not strong as fuck! But stronger than buggers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:13 PM

Big Al,
I shudder to think
what the Mudcat would be like, without you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:40 PM

If we were in Oz I suppose we'd have taken it as a backslapping term of endearment, as in "G'day, how's it all going, you old bastard!" Let's move on...

I note with amusement the lack of irony in May's claim that a second referendum would threaten social cohesion. Yeah, right, Treez, like the wrecking of social cohesion caused by your pointless ten years' austerity, your permanent Tory us-and-them syndrome, your million on zero-hours, your all-in-it-together lie of the century, your hostile environment, Windrush, Grenfell, your foodbanks... You ain't seen nuffink yet, Treez, things such as the loss of social cohesion that would result from millions thrown out of work by brexit or by the hard border that you're courting with by refusing to take no-deal off the table. A second referendum, in contrast to all that, would be a thoroughly democratic move. I'm not sure that I think it's the right answer to all this, but then democracy should never simply be in the hands of those who think it might turn against them. Should it, brexiteers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:57 PM

Old cricket joke.

Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM

Hey, Dave, that was no joke - it really happened! It was in the "Bodyline" Ashes series of 1932. The England captain was Douglas Jardine, the architect of the bodyline bowling strategy. In other words the biggest bastard among bastards* ever to disgrace a cricket field. He went to the Aussie dressing room to complain that one of the Aussie team had called him a bastard. Vic Richardson, the Aussie vice-captain, turned to his teammates in the room and said: "OK, which of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?"

*Unless Jacob Rees-Mogg has ever played cricket...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM

Could everyone stick to the subject of the thread please, and ignore attempts to divert attention to other topics, and provoke a reaction to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM

I saw a photo of the Queen and Theresa May today. It was obviously taken at one of the weekly audiences, and some wag had put a speech bubble above the queen's head saying, "Well, you've made a terrible mess of it all haven't you? Would you like me to get Philip to drive you home?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 PM

It was in a link in this thread, Eliza, posted by Bobad early on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:22 PM

Gah! So it was! I get more senile every day! Sorry about that Bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 05:39 PM

Just received a copy of "Wetherspoons news" in my letterbox. Packed full of stuff about how wonderful a no deal Brexit will be. The owner of Wetherspoons is really obsessed with Brexit - branching out from just plugging it in the pubs.

I've got a friend who's sworn off going to Wetherspoons, and is a bit shocked I won't. But I can't see boycotting makes much sense in this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:50 PM

Surely the Tory definition of cohesion is everybody consenting without question to their subjugation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:35 PM

Since my posts are educational and everybody loves them, I'm going to repeat my post to Mudcat Brexit 2 which was the last post before shutdown:

There's a pretty good National Public Radio Program called On the Media. Saturday I heard their presentation: "Why Brexit Shouldn't Have Been a Surprise"

It was good, particularly in explaining UK business to American ears. I especially appreciated the commentary by Matthew Goodwin, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent and author of National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy. He had a strong opinion that another referendum would be a bad idea.

I'm not so sure. It might not be a good idea, but it might be the best way out of the morass if it leads to a path forward.

There's a lot of reasons Democracy ain't lookin' so hot these days, but I'll argue considerably that nothing very much looks very good these days, and Democracy is still the best thing out there, compared to all the others, the kleptocracy that is modern Russia, the abject failure of whatever Venezuela called its shoddy form of government, the poor democractic selections on the part of the voters of the Philippines, Hungary, Poland, and Turkey. The digital/capitalist oligarchy/dictatorship running China, and the religiously intolerant regimes in India and Burma(Myanmar).

For relaxation I've been reading the Wikipedia entry on The European Union and the early reading part of it is so idealistic, harking back to days when Victor Hugo in previous centry and later Winston Churchill called for a "United States of Europe". Less relaxing is the recent Brexit movie full of current day fakenews digital realpolitick (although Benedict Cumberbatch is a national treasure).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 09:10 PM

Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:46 AM

"Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks."


I second all of that, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:55 AM

I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away. It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:43 AM

"I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away"
Pity - soundbites no longer sum up this catastrophe
pent some time yesterday enquiring about becoming an Irish national as the monster that is Brexit is threatening to lose us some of the privileges of living here if little England goes it alone
Some people really seem not to have got their head around the effect on other countries - never a high priority of the British establishment
We already have signs of a return to violence (from both sides)
NICELY SUMMED UP HERE
In the North and counties like Donegal are benefiting from the misfortuns of the Sic Counties - great for Donegal - not so great for relationships and peace
It seems that predictions of the break-up the UK is now becoming a reality
I've always welcomed the idea of a United Ireland, but not this way - please

"Wetherspoons"
Stopped drinking their piss when they stopped serving Travellers
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM

It was one pub in North London, Jim. Tarring the whole chain because of the actions of one manager, who has now been "re-educated", is akin to, well, tarring a whole group of people with the actions of a few :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 AM

Since i was obliged to be 'on the wagon' in 2005, pubs are of zero interest to me other than as sources of nourishment and opportunities to belt a few tunes and songs out.

But when I did indulge in alcohol, there was (still is) a lovely, welcoming, and well-patronised little pub round the corner from our local Wetherspoons, which specialises in traditional ales and beers - mostly from small, independent breweries, properly kept by a skilled and knowledgeable owner, and served properly by the owner and his experienced staff. Why on earth would I want to go to a soulless chain-owned barn selling crap beer, where they need bouncers on the door to keep an eye on the hordes of young people who go there to guzzle lager and shout at one another?

And if I want food, instead of Wetherspoons' microwave shite, I go to one of several locally-owned cafés or restaurants and have real food, properly cooked and presented in nice surroundings.

As far as I'm concerned, that dick can take his crappy Wetherspoons and shove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:48 AM

"who has now been "re-educated""
Fined, you mean
It was a joke Dave - never really liked Weatherspoons anyway - the nearest to us in London was right opposite Young's Brewery - the finest in the world until progress (pronounced "PISS") drove it out of business
Sorry lads - mustn't interrupt the flow - quite an apt phrase, don'cha think
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

I think with a company fine of £24,000 the manager was probably 're-educated' right out of the door :-) I

I must go in different Weatherspoons. All the ones I have been in have been fine with a good range of beer and food. But, yes, nowt to do with Brexit really so I shall leave it at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM

Dyson moving HQ to Singapore.

To put that in some kind of perspective: (from June 2016)

https://janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

"It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that."

Excellent point, DMcG. If we allow unelected mega-companies to rule the roost (as well as unelected, powerful lobby groups) we can kiss democracy goodbye, and individual little countries, far from wanting to regulate the corporations, will bend over backwards to cut their tax liabilities to get them in. Not saying that the EU can make much of a fist of it, as you say...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM

The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it. The first duty of a company is to look after the shareholders, i.e.maximize profit. Morality,charity and national allegiance is no part of the equation. Others explain it thus:
"Contrary to widespread belief, corporate directors are generally not under any legal obligation to maximise profits for their shareholders. Where directors pursue the latter goal, it is usually a product not of legal obligation but rather of the pressures imposed on them by financial markets, activist shareholders, the threat of a hostile takeover and/or stock-based compensation schemes."

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2016/11/modern-corporation-statement-company-law

I am sure it requires no explanation as to why a company may up sticks and relocate to a lower cost base, or a more amenable legislatory environment. It goes without saying that many eastern europeans welcomed the employment opportunities that came there way as a result of the above.
As I demonstrated in a previous link it is EU largesse that encouraged many relocations. To state that the poacher also becomes the gamekeeper seems a particularly bizarre socialist solution that inevitably will crash and burn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM

"Brittany Ferries have moved to slap down Remainer scaremongering about international travel beyond March, and reassure passenmgers. The iconic ferry company accused the BBC of peddling “nonsense” and reassured potential passengers that they can book beyond March.

    “The company would like to make clear that passengers can book crossings to France and Spain, and sail-and-stay holidays as normal. There is absolutely no truth in speculation that passengers are being advised not to book because all space has been allocated to freight.

    The reality is that Brittany Ferries has added 19 crossings on three of its nine routes leaving the UK. The additional sailings create more space for freight, as requested by the DfT. As a consequence, there is now more choice for passengers rather than less.”

Maybe it’s time for the BBC to start listening to the experts?"
(From Guido, of course!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM

Well the free movement of capital was largely welcomed, as I remember. It was a necessary adjunct to living in the EEC.

It must be a big temptation to rich people not pay any tax though, wouldn't you think.

I'm not really sure you will eventually sustain a stable society though, if no one invests in anything except real estate.

Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:50 AM


The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it.


Perhaps, but that raises the question of what is inadequate and why is it inadequate. From a business point of view, a law is not so much a question of "do/don't do this or suffer the penalty" so much as "if we do it and incur the penalty, do we still make a profit?" As example of that was Sunday trading - a number of the big supermarkets openly flouted the law because they thought that the most profitable in the long run. (I am not taking about whether Sunday trading is or is not a good thing - just how companies will ignore the law if the cost-benefit suits them)

Part of the reason they could do this was that they could cross-subsidize penalties from profits on other days, and in the end the law was changed to allow them to trade very much as they wished.

My claim is that any national law will be inadequate - either the company will ignore the law(*) if it is profitable to do so, or they will decide it is not worth trading in a country whose laws make it non-profitable. The only way to overcome this is to the set laws at a higher level than a national law, and have mechanisms that allow the countries in such alliances to reach agreements with each other that can be enforced.

(*) Because even the boards of companies are people, there are still laws they will abide by with little questioning, of course. But the principle that laws are treated as cost-benefit analyses than instructions is, I believe, a consequence of the stuff Iains was saying.

-----

Big Al: I, for one, do not think I have everything worked out - it is all a work-in-progress from my point of view. I have said before, and repeat again here, I would love to be completely wrong about the consequences of Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.

The minds of ideologues countenance no doubt, see religious fundamentalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

It is not a question of being right or wrong, or even ideology. It is more a study of the facts and their rational interpretation. All other factors being equal a company/corporation/organisation will locate where cost/benefit dictates. A case in point: Ireland
"Ireland was placed 11th out of 82 countries as one of the most attractive business locations in the world in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s (EIU) Business Environment Ranking for 2008-2012.

Experts say that Ireland is attractive because it has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world at 12.5 per cent"

https://www.eolasmagazine.ie/what-attracts-companies-to-ireland/

First they say this:https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/tags/corporate-tax_en

Then they sat this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-in-fresh-warning-on-irish-corporation-tax-base-1.3690699
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ireland-needs-to-upset-the-apple-cart-on-corporate-tax-1.3674289

So much for member state fiscal independence!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.
A sensible post at last


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

"The EU’s long-running duplicity over the Irish border has finally come to a head this week with the Commission wrapping itself up in knots trying to maintain its spurious position on the backstop. After Commission Spokesman Margaritas Schinas caused a major fuss on Tuesday by saying that the EU would force Ireland to erect a hard border in the event of no deal, Michel Barnier let the cat out of the bag yesterday while trying to reverse the diplomatic damage, admitting that in the event of no deal “we will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border”, going on to say that “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances.” Thus blowing apart the entire fiction that the backstop is necessary to avoid a hard border…

The Telegraph’s James Crisp grilled Schinas on this very point today, who ended up so flustered by the question that he eventually snapped back: “write what you like”. The sham of needing the backstop to avoid a hard border is finally starting to unravel in Brussels. Time the sycophantic British media and political establishment woke up too…"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:41 AM

Because a number of factors affect choices of where corporations locate, there comes a tipping point which fianally determine these decisions as it is not a simple as moving to the office next door, and it seems that a lot of tipping points have been reached in the last few months as no business is going to base strategic decisions on what may or may not happen and quite rightly up sticks to where there is more certainty about the future.


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