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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM
The Sandman 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM

You are both right :-)

Back to brexit now.

Philip Hammond has now said that "leaving without a deal would cause 'severe damage' to the UK economy".

Common sense from Tory. Wonders will never cease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM

"I don't like to say I told you so but..."
Don't lie - yes you do, we all do
We wouldn't me human if we didn't
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM

he embattled People’s Vote campaign are dismayed that Jeremy Corbyn won’t get off the fence and back their second referendum campaign. It’s funny how they’re now begging for his help when they’ve been some of his harshest critics for years:
What a joke!

    Tony Blair in 2016 said Jeremy Corbyn in power would be a “very dangerous experiment”.
    Peter Mandelson in 2017 said “I work every single day in some small way to bring forward the end of his tenure in office. Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene – every day I try to do something to save the Labour party from his leadership.”
    Alastair Campbell in 2015 called on Labour members to vote for “anyone but Corbyn” and said that his election as leader would show that Labour had “given up on being a serious party of government”.
    Chuka Umunna in 2015 said that Corbyn and his “nasty trolls” should be disqualified from office because of their pacifist views.
    Sadiq Khan in 2016 wrote that Labour “cannot win with Corbyn” and said that Corbyn had “proved that he is unable to organise an effective team, and has failed to win the trust and respect of the British people”.
    Tom Baldwin, the People’s Vote’s Director of Communications, wrote in 2016 that “people at every level of our party recognised a responsibility to bring Jeremy Corbyn’s experimental retro-70s leadership to a swift end” and tweeted that “getting rid of Corbyn would be a step in the right direction”.
    Anna Soubry just last week called Corbyn the “most hopeless opposition leader we’ve ever had” .
    Mike Gapes also directly attacked Corbyn just last week, saying “Apparently Corbyn is prepared to hold talks with Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Iran without preconditions. But not with the UK Prime Minister. Why?”
    Chris Leslie in 2015 accused Corbyn of “plucking figures out of the air” and said that his policies would hit the poor the hardest as well as keeping Labour out of power for a decade.
    Sarah Wollaston in 2016 said “Whatever your political views, we all benefit from a competent official opposition; that cannot happen under Corbyn”.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM

There is no dispute, it is a spiteful little goblin trying to get the thread closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM

I don't like to say I told you so but...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM

"but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough"
I think I do - I was trying to establish whether you were being ironic, which seems to eb the case
My posting wasn't aimed at what you said, which was clear enough - it was my summing up of what I believe needs to be established clearly

Does someone have the emergency number for Rainhill? (understandable only to Liverpudlians over a certain age)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Hmm! A gnome, a troll, or a vexatious little goblin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry.

Only if the business model indicates success. Otherwise it would be rather silly!

It is only the loony left that thinks finance falls like manna from heaven, off a magical money tree. That is why each time in power their economic policy creates an industrial wasteland of catastrophic proportions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

I don't think you are getting my point, Jim, but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough. I do not believe in a One True Brexit, but there are those who do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM

Irish troops threatened to the Irish border.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46998533

or according to Guido it is fast becoming a Brian Rix farce



https://order-order.com/2019/01/25/now-varadkar-threatens-put-troops-irish-border/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM

"was not done in line with the purists"
This disingenuous nonsense needs to be faced head on
The decision, my a minority of the British people, was agreed with no qualified set of promises - there is still no coherent map of where Britain will go when/if they leave
All this should have been laid before the British people before the vote was taken - instead they were given a magical mystery tour to vote on based largely on controlling the input of foreigners
If the people's opinion meant anything more than a fart in a hurricane to these no-marks, those who did would be given a chance to confirm that their decision remains the same and those who didn't should be allowed to vote on theirs and their childrens' future with the fuller facts at their disposal.
Democracy has only meant anything to them indoors when it can be manipulated to serve the haves and, at the same time, give the impression of being the peoples' will
It's at times like this that I thank the god I don't believe in for proportional representation, which, while not being fuly democrating, at leastt manages to keep some of the sharks at bay
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times


I won't get into whether it is ironic or not because that is a really complicated subject. But what I meant was that whatever sort of Brexit we end up with any problems will be blamed on the fact is was not done in line with the purists and so it will be, as McGrath said, someone else's fault. It will never be seen as a problem inherent in Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

Main thing is, they'll blame it all on those nasty foreigners who've ganged up against the UK. And of course Remainers who stopped us having a proper Brexitty deal. Always someone else's fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times
Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry - wonderful to see the patriots describing Britain's industrial pride in such patriotic terms - (sorry Dave, we would be neglecting in our duty to let that gem of national pride go un-commented on)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM

"I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."


Errrmm....you mean Jeremy Corbyn, surely? ;-)

May's already trying to blame him for the entire debacle, I'm sure the Brexshiteers will be happy to follow her lead...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM

I would masterfully point out that Ireland will be directly impacted by brexit. I would also point out thatIntransigence is not a clever negotiating tactic.

I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain

This is called progress.

the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry

Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies.

Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment,

Utter rubbish as you have been told repeatedly on this forum and given the supporting statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM

Just watched a number of interviews with Irish politicians of various parties - none of which I support
All have pointed out masterfully that the Border is Briain's chosen problem and it is Britain's job to sort it outinstead of constantly blaming the Irish for not co-operating
I think that goes for the few here who refuse to recognise the seriousness of Ireland's problem
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

"The regulations killed our industries. "
Utter nonsense - I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment, her motive, to smash the unions, the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry   
We in the North of England watched this happen before our eyes because we were the worst effected
Where did "regulations" come into any of this - most of it was deliberate because it was more profitable to buy foreign
You seem to be floundering around to find reasons to blame Europe
I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so
https://www.ippr.org/blog/if-you-think-brexit-is-going-to-be-bad-for-the-economy-just-wait-until-you-see-what-s-in-store-for-us-in-2020
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM

Big Al the world was changing prior to Thatcher. If you study the aircraft industry it was a world leader immediately postwar and into the fifties. Both political parties destroyed the aircraft industry ably assisted by management of the numerous aircraft companies. The reluctance to modernise and integrate was not restricted to the aircraft industry. The unions are a separate issue- governments rule countries not unions,( or cadres trying to redefine british democracy, as now). Thatcher created big bang and as a result the service sector exploded while traditional industries declined due to poor management, union activists, lack of investment and more importantly global competition. How you wish to explain it depends on perspective. The textile industry grew on the colonial market, now many of those markets manufacture and export. They also have the competitive advantage.
The industrial revolution started in the UK but on down the line others learn from our mistakes and did not have obsolescence to deal with. America also soon caught up and overtook the UK in innovation. The US industry for small arms was the first to perfect mass production techniques.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM

Dunno if that was for me, Al, or someone else? All I'll say is that you know my views on The Beast of Grantham very well, I've made them very plain on many occasions - she was the worst thing that's ever happened to this country in peacetime.

The point I was making in my comment to Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM, was that, despite being told that British industry, fishing, etc. was buggered before we joined the Common Market (i.e. 'long before marvellous Maggie even started secondary school'), you continue to blame the EU for their demise.

I simply hoped that hearing it from a fellow Brexshitter, you might start to believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

Other countries didn't exploit the regulations self destructively. A better analogy than guns here is cars. Cars driven sensibly are useful. There are some people who shouldn’t be allowed behind a wheel. Margaret Thatcher was someone who shouldn't have been trusted in charge of a country, and you can't blame the EU for that.
................


Here is an entertaining spin on the Brexit debacle


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM

The regulations killed our industries. Thatcher used them to take political power from the trades unions.

Saying that the regulations weren't to blame is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people ' shit. We all know if the guns aren't available people don't get killed in quite so many numbers. or maybe you disagree with that.

I saw it happen. I saw it was going to happen. I watched it happen as predicted.

You don't have to agree with me. You're free to tell me I'm an asshole for thinking as I do. many do.

But I 'm not going to take sides with the iceberg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM

"Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day."

I completely agree. Yet you Brexshiteers voted to remove the checks, balances and controls of the EU over the behaviour of the tiny, immensely wealthy, powerful cadre who, in order to further their own interests and increase their wealth and power, have driven the BrexShit process from the dark shadows, and to hand absolute power to them, no matter what damage it causes to the lives of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

Backwoodsman. The legacy of Thatcher was that she recognised the decline of UK industry and introduced de regulation and encouraged globalism as a counter.

How much of her policies led to pluses and minuses in society can be argued for ever. These changes impacted the entire world and the jack will not go back in the box.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-reagan-thatcher-revolution/a-16732731

https://www.ft.com/content/8f41da48-a05f-11e2-a6e1-00144feabdc0

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-impact-legacy-development

The real problem, well demonstrated by the referendum, is that there is a basic dichotomy between globalisation of trade by ever growing multinationals and retention of national identity and sovereignty. The overarching reality of the EU becoming a political union does nothing to combat the ever growing power of multinationals. Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day. This is well demonstrated by our present crop of mps. 500 voted for article 50. Who paid them to change their minds?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

""The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."
A strange indication that Britain has never regarded herself as part of Europe
Protectionism of their own industries surely includes British industries, which was what we agreed to when we signed up
When/if we leave, that "protectionism" will remain and be to the disadvantage of Britain - all Britain will do is remove its right to have a say in it (as with the fishing industry)
Crazier and crazier
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM

"The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."

The other way of putting that, Al, is that other countries used the flexibility built into the rules more intelligently than the UK, in such a way as to avoid unnecessary damage to their industries. The EU doesn’t have "their own industries". EU members do. And they didn't choose to elect a Margaret Thatcher and give her a licence to kill.

Blaming other people for our own cock-ups is very much the flavour of the times it seems. The same is done in the case of freedom of movement as interpreted by the UK government in a way that exploits both immigrants and natives in the interest of predatory employers.

And a pedantic point. "We are after all an island". No we aren't. England is not an island, nor is the UK. Great Britain is an island, but it has never been a country except between 1703 and 1801.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.

Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school."


https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!"


Could you explain all that to Big Al please, Iains? He seems to be under the mistaken impression they were destroyed by the EU, despite repeated explanations to the contrary by those of us whose memories are still in full working condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM

"of course we can revive our seas. We must."
Don't you think it strange that, despite the fact that Britain's fishing indistrt==y has been in steady decline for decades yet no Government, inside or out of Europe, has lifted a finger to help it ?
It has only surfaced now as an academic political ploy
The most likely scenario on the table now is that Britain will sacrifice the fishing rights to Europe in a deal benefiting other aspects of the economy
Britain's fishing will still remain in the hands of Europe, the only difference being that we will no longer have a say in it
Even if Britain crashes out of Europe, fishing will be way down the list of priorities, allowing the industry just to fade away completely
Crazy Al, crazy
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.
Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.


Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.
Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM

I'm not saying that your article is wrong about the way things are. I'm saying -its not the way it should be. We need to rip up everything that's gone before and get marine biologists to work out a way forward that is sustainable and good for the future.

We owe it to future generations to make our seas healthy. I won't say again - past generations didn't really have the global vision that is so natural to us now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
Another terrible Question Time. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience.

Freedom of Information request – RF20101013

"I would like to be supplied with the selection criteria the BBC use when it comes to deciding who to
select from among the many applicants to participate in the 'Question Time' audience."
Please note that your request is outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“ the Act”) but we are happy to explain that the programme ensures that there is due balance between the main political parties, as well as minor parties and unaligned voters in the audience.
We hope you find this helpful.

Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap?
Sovereignty is the word you mean!
Note:
control: the power to influence or direct people's behaviour or the course of events.
sovereignty: supreme power or authority. "the sovereignty of Parliament"
    synonyms:        jurisdiction, supremacy, dominion, power, ascendancy, suzerainty, tyranny, hegemony, domination, sway, predominance, authority, control, influence, rule, freedom

It should not be necessary to point out these vital distinctions! It was to escape external control and a re-assert sovereignty that the referendum was predicated upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM

of course we can revive our seas. We must.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM

You don't need a Sky box to watch Sky, Dick.

Do you use petro chemicals? Eat food? Wear clothes? Each one of those industries is culpable in any number of human rights abuses yet you witter on about someone watching football on Sky. I know where the epithets pathetic and hypocritical should really be applied.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM

Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning
I read it when I woke at about 5:50am. We nearly have 24h coverage of the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM

"Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning..."
Probably same as me - because the pubs are closed (:-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM

TRY THIS FOR SIZE AL
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM

"i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island."
So a Britain tied to Ecological vandal Trump is more likly to save the planet than being part of a group that is, at least, paying lip-service to co-operation and control - give us a break Al
We USED to be an island 0 one that controlled a large proportion of the world, but now we are totally reliant on others - we have no industries to speak of and no plans to develop any so on the one hand, we rely on cheaply produced goods manufactured in apalling conditions, from textiles to computers, while at the same time building walls to keep the people who make the goods we buy out
We fished the oceans empty before the days of Sam Larner so there is no chance of reviving our fishing industry, so instead of staying within a group where there is a chance of making the best of what's left cast ourselves adrift - crazy argument
Britain is totally incapable of "going it alone" for al the flag-wagging - it doesn't even have a united people or a Government capable of holding a whist drive, never mind leading a country
That is the referendum's legacy, and it hasn't even begun to bite yet
Jim   
If


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM

No , I don't know it.

Of course I have doubts when virtually every MP with an IQ above room temperature disagrees with me.

But I don't really see anyone actually countering my arguments. They just abuse them and me. And I remember the ten solid miles of steel factories outside Sheffield, I used to drive past on the way to gigs. And all the textile factories, where my father in law worked as a knitter and trimmer, round where I lived - making excellent goods like Viyella Shirts, and the skills that have been lost. And I see marks and Spencer shutting down stores everywhere cos they can't sell the cheap[ foreign made goods on their shelves at High Street prices. They offer Cotton Trader products at High Street prices.

And I think we've got it wrong and membership of the EU is part of the problem.

And I don't think we'll set it right til we're quit of them, and our MP's are answerable to US and not Brussels appointees, who keep our representatives of every party waiting and buggering about. And that is my sincere belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM

if you do not knowwhat a sky box is ask Jim, in the meantime you are still supporting rupert murdoch , which is imo hypocritical, you gave the impression in an earlier post that you paid for sky television just to watch a soccer match , bloddy pathetic


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM

Well I suppose that's a better way of fighting a world war than the previous two. I've been to several EU countries for my hols and I love them. I find people there with the same hopes, aspirations, McDonalds and M&S as we have in the UK. I don't see dark animosity or plots to get us or desires to screw the UK. I feel quite European, actually. I want to go there as often as I can, as I love their summer warmth, their lovely grub, their friendly people and especially their gelati, and I want them to come here if they want. I've never been called up to fight Europeans, neither has my son. That's cracking good stuff is that. I'm off to bed now. Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM

A lot of people in the UK seem to be still fighting the last two world wars , only with the EU taking the place of Germany .As with Big Al’s post above :
“The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM

The EU was not responsible for those losses and you know it, Al.

Thing is, Al, we have been sold a big lie about the EU ever since the time of Wedgie Benn and Michael Foot (both blokes I admired in most other regards), not to speak of a litany of Tory eurosceptics. People like them ensured via their oft-misleading propaganda that we believed Europe was under the undemocratic control of Brussels bureaucrats, which was never even remotely true. All EU decisions, whether or not suggested by the Commission, are either agreed to by common consensus among 28 sovereign nations, put to the vote in the European Parliament, or vetoed. And of course the EU is protectionist. Tell me one major trading bloc that isn't. Yet you're happy for us to ditch the sort-of-protectionist EU in favour of the uber-protectionist US and China. I mean, wassup, Al!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM

its not the point, Steve. The point is that after the war, we decided we wanted full employment.,,after alll the shit people went through in rhe 1930's.

Our industries weren't the most efficient in the world, but by subsidising them - we avoided having beggars on the street, a hard drugs problem, and all the other social ills that are commonplace in tough capitalist economies like the US.

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.

Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.

THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.

In Sutton in Ashfield, Notts. They have lost mining, mining equipment manufacture, textiles,   ceramics. The Eu has compensated them with an ornamental sundial. Go figure....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM

As I've said God knows how many times, Al, the amount we pay into the EU is around one percent of our GDP. We get some of that back in farm subsidies and regional development grants (Cornwall, where I live, has had half a billion). True, we are net contributors. Our money goes into stabilising countries with weaker economies, helping to maintain their democracy. One percent of our GDP, to help maintain peace and stability in what has been a volatile continent since the dawn of time. But you gib at that? Al, did you actually KNOW how little of our money is tied up with the EU, you know, the stuff you agitate to "take back control" of? Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap? Tell you what, Al. Once we leave we'll be under the control of massive trading blocs who are in no hurry to give us any deals (not a single one so far, despite Liam Fox promising us forty by now). Enjoy your new-found non-freedoms and your new-found non-opportunities!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM

i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island.

We need a planned approach to the seas around us. I just don't think the continued fishing by factory ships and even the big English fishing boats is sustainable.

Similarly I think we need to take charge of the wealth in the country, and subsidise the building of modern factories.

The EU law wouldn't allow the land grab this would involve. Then they wouldn't allow the subsidies.

I'm an old style socialist. I believe in a planned economy. Preferably planned by the English government. We need to get into government - unconstrained by Brussels,

In answer to Backwoodsman's point. Yes of course I have doubts. But I honestly believe we're in trouble if we don't change direction. The Blair government was heartbreaking for guys like me. After 18 years of tory intransigence and double-dealing. If we had reorganised then, we wouldn't be in this mess. Held to ransom by a tiny enclave in a highly unpopular government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM

I've never had a Sky Box by the way, and don't know what one is.


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