BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

I think it was a general question, Jim. No-one who wants to keep their sanity interacts with him any more.

Nice to see you BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

1300! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Obviously I hate Murdoch and The Sun (especially as a Liverpool fan), but if I may be allowed a moment of levity deep in this vale of tears I'd like to draw attention to today's Sun front page, which, referring to "Brexy's Midnight Runners," follows with the headline COME ON ARLENE


(Seen online, by the way. I'd rather hack off my gonads with a rusty machete than pay money for that despicable rag, but I've gotta applaud that headline writer).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Brexit: Police brace for disorder after far-right protesters threaten to riot at London rallies

Let's hope that is no more than nervousness and it all comes to nothing. But it will be a big contrast to the Leave march with 1,000,000 or so attendees if it does happen. Both sides are disappointed at the outcome, but their response could be very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Perhaps gnome but unlike you my reputation here is intact! Now how about a contribution to the discussion instead of your usual sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:48 AM

It's just not worth the effort with some people, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:12 PM

any fool can play games with statistics.

many of us on the left are totally scunnered with tony blair . however, he did pump billions into public services and working in the public sector we could all see the difference (just don't mention PPI!) the tories never stop reminding us of how much the labour party spent. but, proper jobs were there providing security for families and communities. people were able to access a welfare system largely without punitive and indiscriminate sanctions. etc etc etc.....

however, it hardly needs saying that tories will always work to dismantle the state for the benefit of their rich friends. and 'the left' should always work to support it for all our benefit. as michael foot said - something like - 'the rich have no need of government as they will always prosper' it's vital for the rest of society. it's our countries' tragedy that it is always the rich who run it and that so many of us believe the lies and continue to believe that only the toffs know how to run the show.

we need more faith and belief in ourselves. to believe in the tories and their lies is unforgivable when they are so shamelessly greedy and inept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 02:55 PM

Any fool can play games with statistics. Political parties come and go, as do economic cycles. To take one statistic and plot it against time is simplistic in the extreme. It needs to   be studied in context and trying to play party politics by simplifying the underlying realities achieves nothing other than a loss of credibility. There have been major changes in society over the last 20 years and in government policies. There were also depressions in the early 80's, 90's and 2008/9.

Interest rates generally declined during the recession from a peak of 17.0% at the beginning of 1980 to a low of 9.6% in October 1982.
Unemployment rose from 6.9% of the working population in 1990 to 10.7% in 1993.Annual inflation was 9.5% in 1990, 5.9% in 1991, 3.7% in 1992. and 1.6% in 1993. Interest rates were stubbornly high initially but declined from a high of 14.8% at the start of the recession to a low of 5.9% by the end of the recession
Manufacturing output declined 7% by end 2008 during the late 2000s financial crisis. The unemployment rate rose to 8.3% (2.68m people) in August 2011, the highest level since 1994.

All played a part.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

From the Child Poverty Action Group

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 800,000 children were lifted out of poverty

I can't remember who was elected in 1997 and 2010. Can you, Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

Twist it any way you want Iains. I care not which government it is.

The fact is occuring in 21st century England is an absolute travesty.

Your support for them is also known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM

t reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.
This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.
Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.
And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Shameful indeed! But the undeniable fact is that according to the Rountree foundation report child povery levels were higher under Labour.

If the Tory record is shameful what words do you suggest to summarise Labour's despicable record?

Terrible things facts. In fact poverty levels among pensioners were 15% higher under Blair.

Should we support and applaud Labour miserable efforts?
I rather fink not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

There was a comment posted by one of the pundits that the future of the UK is now in the hands of some 120,000 Conservative party members and how they are influenced by the campaigning of the potential leaders. It is true enough that I seriously looked into joining the Conservative Party for the scrap of influence on the future.

Two problems: the first, which I actually fully agree with, is that you only get voting rights after 3 months membership. That is sensible, and I might be in time, or I might not.

But the clincher is that they don't get to decide, really. They have a choice between two candidates, selected from on high. If the two have very different goals, then that would be, to coin a phrase, a meaningful vote. But if they are two people with a very similar viewpoint, which is by far the most likely thing, then is the vote is of no real significance.

No one need fear: I will not be joining the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

A report today on the BBC news websites gives yet another insight into the disgraceful conduct of the Conserative government.

It reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.

This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.

Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.

And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM

According to a live feed:

12:03

Raab calls for 'pragmatism' and says UK should return to EU to demand legally-binding changes to backstop

That looks like a textbook example of lack of pragmatism to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Lesson on the black arts from the EU.

MEPs tricked on vote for internet copyright directive

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM

Soooo, enticing the ERGs by dangling visions of a vacant No.10 before their starry eyes didn't work. Why waste the remains of your colours nailing them to a mast if it's just about to disappear beneath the waves? Rats and sinking ships come to mind. The perfect metaphor for their political integrity.

Not having managed to manipulate her Sunday-lunch clique with bribery, May now tries it on the whole nation. Only trouble is, it seems to be an equation. An equation with no date. Pass my deal = I will step down. Ahhh, those teensy little conjunctions "if" and "when".

What happens if the MPs don't? Or if Bercow disallows MV3? Ooops. Guess she doesn't have to abide by her word. Again.


Ian Dunt (editor of the site Politics.co.uk) writes:

"What an abominable circus. It's hard to know where the greater blame should be put. On the prime minister who has made her own eradication a bribe to force through the product of her failure? Or the great defenders of British sovereignty who have suddenly decided none of their principles mean anything if there is a chance to finish off a political rival?...

Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get it passed is by default not worth supporting. And any political culture which would require the author of a deal to step down in order for MPs to back it is plainly in a state of advanced decay. What followed was a masterclass in hypocrisy so severe that it was startling even in this golden age of consequence-free political lying...

It is the Nazi-Soviet pact of the Brexit debate: a deal so cynical it contains its own gravitational field. May is prepared to offer her resignation in exchange for the deal, on the basis that if it passes she probably won't have to see it through...

The indicative votes represented the fabled parliamentary sovereignty which [the ERGs] spent the referendum insisting the country had lost. They wanted our own parliament to pass our own laws. And yet when it started to do so, they preferred vassalage."

- Ian Dunt


https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

i think we are way past the point of the game where the victims of britain's imperial wars rise up with the great trees of sherwood and across the country, cut down for car parks and boxy wee houses for thatcher's zombie children, and sweep across the land behind ivor cutler on a unicorn.

'right everybody....i'm in charge for now so be quiet......'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

Brexit won the referendum, Parliament voted to implement that decision.
The only reason we have the present chaos is because MPs value their
sinecure more than their honour.
They may have to revamp their cvs in the not too distant future.

I see tin cans   skipping   down the road and into the very long grass

and it shall come to pass
Hosea 8:7

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

My MP voted for a no-deal (rejected by the House earlier) and for a variation of the Malthouse (explicitly taken back to the EU and trashed completely by them.) He voted against everything else.

Nice to see intelligent compromise at work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

They are not even trying to hide it any more.

May: Vote for my proposal. It is good.
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal. Pretty please
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal and I'll give you chance of more power
ERG: OK then!

As big a bunch of self-serving twats that ever (dis)graced a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Who is up for writing a new version of "The Vicar of Bray"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Well, nobody could accuse extreme-Right-Wing Tories like Jacob ("Call me Jake") Rich-Mong of putting country before party and their own personal wealth, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

It's all bloody Tory games. I'll go if you'll vote for me. I'll vote for you if the Ulster fascists vote for you, otherwise I might not. I hate your deal but I'll vote for it anyway otherwise my constituents will think I'm betraying "the will of the people." I've dragged you down twice but goddammit I'll vote for you even though your shit stinks because the one thing that'll save the country might happen if I don't.

Anyone for principles?

Anyone for what is actually in the interests of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:33 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Rees Mogg has switched again again again. Now he's in line with the DUP. Too bad they can't delete print newspaper headlines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM

Cross-posted with DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:05 PM

But the SNP didn't vote on any of them except for the Margaret Beckett amendment. They are sure to weigh in at some stage. And the customs union didn't lose by large margin.

If you crunch the numbers, there were a lot of abstainers keeping their powder dry.

Meanwhile the DUP blew out of the water May's hopes for backing her deal. If Bercow even allows it to be moved.

Far from done and dusted. This was just a knock-out round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM

Indeed all options were rejected, but not equally. There will be another vote on Monday, probably, and is is very likely that all options with, say, 150 or more voting against will not get anywhere. Options with say less than 50 adrift are much more likely to pass in future.

I would not be surprised to see May's deal with a confirmation vote being the winner in the end, partially because that does not cross any of May's red lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

9.45pm update: MPs reject all eight Brexit alternative plans

Motion B) No deal - defeated by 400 votes to 160, majority 240.

Motion D) Common market 2.0 - defeated by 283 votes to 188, majority 95.

Motion H) Efta and EEA - defeated by 377 votes to 65, majority 312.

Motion J) Customs union - defeated by 272 votes to 264, majority eight.

Motion K) Labour's alternative plan - defeated by 307 votes to 237, majority 70.

Motion L) Revocation to avoid no-deal - defeated by 293 votes to 184, majority 109.

Motion M) Confirmatory public vote - defeated by 295 voted to 268, majority 27.

Motion O) Contingent preferential arrangements - defeated by 422 votes to 139, majority 283

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM

Only in Westminster Hall, not in the House, and there will be no vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM

Basically after 3 years of prevarication it is all as clear as mud.

I understand that after being told that the on-line propostion would be ignored by the government that the issue, ie reversing Article 50, will now be discussed in Parliament after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:34 PM

Yeah, Mudcat has been a complete pig for a couple of days. I'm glad it's not just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I typed remain when I meant resign above. Sorry. This is my 4th time trying to say so - the site keeps timing out

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM

It is getting hard to keep track of all the U turns, but I think Boris declared May's deal an 8nacceptable straightjacket yesterday, that he would vote for it today and the with the DUP announcement it won't back or abstain, finds himself declaring he will back a deal the hardliners hate that may not take place at all. Sounds as if he is spinning so fast he has stabbed himself in the back.

Meanwhile, it looks as if Bercow will only allow the deal to come back if is significantly amended, probably by including something Parliament selects via indicative vote process, even though May would not commit to doing that. Meanwhile also May promises to remain if her deal (which she might not be able to vote on) is passed; and if has been amended she may not think it her deal anyway. Meanwhile the ERG is splitting with a number saying they will back her vote (which may not be voted on and if amended by, say, adding in a confirmatory referendum they may now be unable to support again
)

However both houses have amended the departure date so we are definitely NOT leaving on Friday - sorry, Nigel!

Everyone clear?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 10:02 AM

I don't think it does, Mossback, but he is confused about the difference between changing your mind and being given the opportunity to change your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 09:59 AM

At least he HAS a mind, apparently unlike the vast bulk of people who brainlessly voted for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM

No, but it makes you a jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM

I see no evidence of Backwoodsman changing his mind. Does this make him undemocratic?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

As I've posted elsewhere today...

David Davis (failed former BrexShit Secretary) in 2012 - "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

That simple sentence is the absolute answer to all of the confuscation, whataboutery, and plain, simple bullshit from the Brexit-Brigade.

End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 02:05 AM

Moreover, once Parliament has decided something and passed a law, they can revisit it at any time to see if it needs to be revised. This means the fact most MPs voted to invoke article 50 has little weight: what matters is whether they still think the process they put in place.is delivering what they intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 01:15 AM

nigel and ian ,it is the law that parliament has the last say , this datesback to the time of oliver cromwell, you can think what you like but this is a fact, and the referendum was asdvisory with parliameny having the last say that is the law of the land

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

I pay my plumber to service my boiler, install new taps and fix leaks. He's not perfect; he's been banned from driving for repeated excessive speeding offences. He managed to flood my kitchen once last year, but he's an excellent chap who makes mistakes and I'll keep him coming. The man who sweeps my chimneys and who maintains my stoves was fined £600 for driving without insurance. He managed to breach a certain building regulation once when he signed off the new wood-burning stove he'd installed for us, but it was a misunderstanding of the regs and there's no hazard or problem that can't be easily fixed if I ever sell the house. I'll be booking him again in the next few weeks. I don't care for my Tory MP at all but I accept the democratic process that elected him. I don't actually see him at his multifaceted work but I'm reasonably confident that he's fairly dutiful, even though he consistently supports policies that I disagree with. The thing is, he got elected to decide on those policies whereas I wasn't. He's far from perfect and I wouldn't expect him to be. Many MPs have been known to stretch points on their expenses forms and a few need to grow up sexually, and it would be nice if they put public interest above watching their backs. Same with some bank managers, doctors, professors, vicars and headteachers and a lot of others who we should feel are worthy of respect but who are somewhat less in the public eye than politicians. Thing is, we get the politicians we deserve. But suggest political education in schools and all of a sudden, according to Tories, every teacher becomes a potential red under the bed. So we have an electorate who are politically ignorant unless they educate themselves as best they can (given the generally warped and skewed resources at their disposal), and that is a small minority (have you asked those random boozers yet what a customs union is?) If every MP was as bloody useless as some suggest, we wouldn't have a country. They have a job to do, and the most that any of us see of it is their pronouncements on the telly. The tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:12 PM

We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues.

R U 4 REAL ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM

"Hoi polloi" is derogatory. That's the sense in which Nigel used it and it's why it's not my choice of words for the people of this country. "Forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is)" is what I said. Some of those forty million will be expert plasterers, builders, plumbers, bus drivers, electricians, orthopaedic surgeons and university lecturers. We pay them to be accomplished in those fields. We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues. I don't want to ask an MP to do my sink replacement and I don't want to ask my plumber to decide the fate of my children and grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM

I cannot believe I would say anything complimentary about MPs. You must show me where I said such an obvious untruth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:13 PM

'Lying, cheating' conniving.............'      


Surely this cannot come from the posts of one who told us we should have more respect for our politicians?

Or was it the other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:51 PM

Please ignore the above I was playing about in preview and forgot to tick the box

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM

font=color"yellow>CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 02:51 PM

Hoi polloi = the rank and file, the populace, the public, the people, the multitude,

It is also worth pointing out that MPs refer to themselves in the house as honourable. Lying cheating conniving is a more accurate prefix in my book.
If they cannot be trusted who has any confidence in them and who will re elect them.
What does a professional MP bring to the table?
They have never accomplished anything and have no knowledge outside their little Westminster bubble. Typical of the left to have complete faith in such people. They will be advocating 5 year plans next!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

"...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words..."
Wear it as a badge of honour Steve - you need to take into consideration the characters of the people who use it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words...