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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

SPB-Cooperator 07 May 19 - 07:37 PM
Backwoodsman 08 May 19 - 02:14 AM
Iains 08 May 19 - 03:28 AM
The Sandman 08 May 19 - 03:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 19 - 03:49 PM
The Sandman 08 May 19 - 05:20 PM
Iains 08 May 19 - 06:29 PM
DMcG 09 May 19 - 01:17 AM
DMcG 09 May 19 - 01:21 AM
DMcG 09 May 19 - 08:06 AM
Backwoodsman 09 May 19 - 11:31 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 19 - 02:15 PM
DMcG 09 May 19 - 02:17 PM
The Sandman 09 May 19 - 02:24 PM
Backwoodsman 09 May 19 - 05:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 03:54 AM
Iains 10 May 19 - 04:31 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 19 - 05:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 05:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 06:02 AM
DMcG 10 May 19 - 06:35 AM
Iains 10 May 19 - 07:24 AM
DMcG 10 May 19 - 07:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 07:41 AM
DMcG 10 May 19 - 07:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 19 - 09:09 AM
Iains 10 May 19 - 09:15 AM
Backwoodsman 10 May 19 - 09:44 AM
Iains 10 May 19 - 10:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 19 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 19 - 11:05 AM
Iains 10 May 19 - 12:21 PM
Stilly River Sage 10 May 19 - 12:24 PM
Backwoodsman 10 May 19 - 12:30 PM
DMcG 10 May 19 - 01:57 PM
Mossback 10 May 19 - 03:25 PM
Donuel 10 May 19 - 08:29 PM
DMcG 11 May 19 - 02:27 AM
Iains 11 May 19 - 03:28 AM
David Carter (UK) 11 May 19 - 06:14 AM
Iains 11 May 19 - 06:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 May 19 - 08:59 AM
Donuel 11 May 19 - 09:14 AM
DMcG 11 May 19 - 10:21 AM
Iains 11 May 19 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 12 May 19 - 03:10 AM
DMcG 12 May 19 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 19 - 04:21 AM
Iains 12 May 19 - 04:23 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:37 PM

I am finding it so hard not to feed he troll

Keep up the effort. It is much easier to thin out the troll droppings when people don't answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 19 - 02:14 AM

Pete, instructions on making Clickable Links (‘Blue Clickies’) are in the ‘Technical Advice’ section of FAQs. Or, if it doesn’t click with you (see what I did there?), just post the link as text and others can copy and paste it into their browser’s search box.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Sauce for the goose and all that! More tropes from a proper newspaper.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/01/jewish-labour-activists-call-jeremy-corbyn-quit-heendorsed-book/

No doubt young Jeremy will heed Abe Lincoln's advice:

"It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, -- than to open it and remove all doubt."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:41 PM

the referndum was advisory only and apparantly in viewof this had to have a two thirds majority that was the legal position so all this stuff about democracy is inaccurate, iains please check this, alot of people were misled


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:49 PM

Things are coming home to roost for the misleader general

Date set for court case which could prosecute Boris Johnson over £350 million EU lie


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:20 PM

a briefing paper 07212 was sent to all mps it said.. section 5 .the referendum was advisory it does not bind parliament or the government to act on it
section 6 says if there were any suggestion WHATSOEVER that there would be a change, such as leaving the EU A MAJOR CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE would involve A CHANGE IN THE RIGHTS OF THE CITIZENS OF THE UK then a super majority would be required, this document was sent in advance of the debate in 2015.
Iwas talking about this right at the beginning, but no one took any notice


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 19 - 06:29 PM

Having read the briefing paper 07212
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

I draw your attention to the section highlighted in red. The legislation contained no mention of a threshold. As the referendum was "advisory" there was no necessity, it was to be treated as indicative.
Had it been as you suggest the newspapers would have been on the case like rats up a drainpipe.

The Bill does not propose a threshold for the referendum. The only referendums held in the UK where a threshold has operated were the polls in Scotland and Wales in 1978 on the question of devolution.65
Discussion of the need for some form of threshold usually arises in the context of ensuring the legitimacy and acceptance of the outcome of a referendum. Certain states require constitutional change to be validated by a special majority in a referendum. This incorporates the idea that major constitutional change is something more important than the result of ordinary elections, and therefore should be the outcome of something more than a simple plurality of the votes. The UK does not have a comprehensive written constitution and so any requirement for a threshold has to be included in the individual referendum legislation. Standard Note 2809 Thresholds in Referendums gives further details and provides comparative examples of the use of thresholds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:17 AM

I detect some confusion about what a lie is and is not. Being wrong is not a lie. Nigel repeatedly said we would be leaving on March 29th but he said it in good faith. It turned out not to be true, but that does mean it was a lie, just false. Equally, when Teresa May said it - at least to begin with - it was said in good faith and so mistaken, but not a lie.

Thomas Aquinas back in the middle ages said that the essential characteristic of a lie was the intention to deceive, and in my book that is right: it is about deception, not whether something is true or not. So arguably if Teresa May continued to say we would leave on March 29th after she knew we couldn't that would be a lie, but while it was said in good faith it was not.

So it boils down to whether Boris' references to the £350m were believed to be an accurate representation of the benefits or were intended to mislead. In my opinion, it was intended to mislead. In short, a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:21 AM

Sorry, I should have said "but that does not mean it was a lie"

That was a particularly unfortunate word to omit. My apologies, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 08:06 AM

Labour's election manifesto is available here, and it makes very strange reading. It is all about what it has achieved in the EU and what its MEPs will be working for, while at the same time Corbyn says during the launch of the manifesto in a Q&A session:

====
Q: You say leave or remain are unhelpful labels. But many in your party want it to be a remain party? Is it definitely a leave party? Or could it be a remain party?
Corbyn says he fought the referendum on a remain and reform programme. But leave won.
He summarises the sort of Brexit he wants. And he says the Labour manifesto includes the option of a public vote.
====
Getting the Brexit he wants is still Brexit (even if some call it BRINO), so much of what is written in the manifesto saying what the MEPs would be doing evaporates.

The manifesto is written on the assumption we are leaving. For example, "Labour will campaign to secure the continued access to vital databases, which have helped take criminals off our streets and in the fight against terrorism" only makes sense if you have left: if we remained we would have that access.

I for one could not vote for Labour in the upcoming EU elections on the basis of this manifesto. However, I very much doubt if confirmed Leavers will either. I anticipate much of Labour's anticipated vote will move to other parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 19 - 11:31 AM

I’ve just completed my Postal Vote form. I was rather surprised to see that UKIP and the Brexit Party are fielding candidates - in view of their oft-repeated lie that the EU is run by ‘unelected bureaucrats’, I was under the distinct impression that they had no idea whatsoever that there was an electoral process, or that there were such people as elected MEPs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:15 PM

Election communication from the Brexit party received today. Large, rather distorted photo of Farage on it. It caused a terrible, apocalyptic raging row in our house. She wanted to burn it, I wanted to w*pe my b*tt*m with that image. Dammit. She won. The paper was a bit coarse anyway...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:17 PM

The third way is to do both. But please consider the order carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:24 PM

THE REFERNDUM WAS ADVISORY NOT LEGALLY BINDING ,iains please note


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 19 - 05:02 PM

Annunziata Rees-Mogg {{spit}} was standing for Farage’s BrexShit Party in our constituency. I desperately wanted to write an appropriate comment against the BrexShit Party box but, of course, that would have resulted in a ‘spoiled ballot-paper’ and my actual vote would be invalidated, so I resisted. It was a close-run thing though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:54 AM

rather distorted photo of Farage

How can you tell it was distorted? Did it make him look human? :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 04:31 AM

I did enjoy question time last night.

It was more like a party political broadcast for the Brexit Party.

I can't wait for the EU elections. I might actually celebrate with my first beer in several years.

The lefties cannot attack the message so resort to their usual trick of attacking the messenger. Meanwhile the tide is turning! Brexit 30% and rising.

and below is a jolly tune to sing along to. Just substitute brexit for water!

How high is brexit Momma


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:26 AM

Farage was shouty, rude, loud, crude and thuggish all the way through the programme. To hear him burbling on about "democracy" towards the end was positively risible. No light and all heat, the kind of steamy heat that emanates from a pile of fresh manure. Naturally, his braying, brain-dead disciples in the audience made the crowd calling for Barabbas over Jesus sound like a Women's Institute prayer meeting. Fiona is weak and arbitrary. She has to go, otherwise the programme is doomed. The icing on the cake was the UKIP bloke on Andrew Neil's programme defending Tommy Robinson. Thank God for those two epic nights of football earlier in the week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:58 AM

From late last year but, seeing as he has been mentioned, still worth a mention

Revealed: the hidden global network behind Tommy Robinson

He is a more obvious crook than the man toad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:02 AM

From a friend's Facebook page

"Today, on the impartial BBC News, we ask: are the far right really, actually racist, and when will terrorist-fellating anti-semite Jeremy Corbyn admit that he is in fact the reincarnation of Joseph Stalin? Over to our panel, consisting of Nigel Farage in his 58th BBC interview this week, Anne Widdecombe, a frantically masturbating colobus monkey, Enoch Powell's head in a jar and, to represent the Left, Margaret Hodge."

Thanks Simon :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:35 AM

At a recent Farage rally it is reported that there were chants of "Lock her up" directed at Teresa May.

At least in the case of Hilary Clinton there was a possible law being broken, roughly equivalent to our Official Secrets Act.   There is no law whatever that May is being accused of breaking. A mob calling for people to be imprisoned when they have broken no law does not sound to me as if rational argument will have any effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:24 AM

At a recent Farage rally it is reported that there were chants of "Lock her up" directed at Teresa May.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, 60 years ago May would have been tarred with the same brush as Philby Burgess and the rest of the Cambridge spies. ie. Treachery


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:38 AM

You claim May is passing state secrets to the Russians? In contravention of the Official Secrets Act? I.e. an actual law is being broken?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:41 AM

You should know better by now DMcG! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:43 AM

I know, I know, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 08:12 AM

I'll put it down to a kind heart, McG :-)

Moving on - best man toad article yet

Next episode of BBC Question Time to just be an hour of Nigel Farage masturbating

Always thought his followers were wankers. Maybe he is setting an example :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:09 AM

From Dave's link. A spoof maybe, but these extracts are all perfectly accurate:

"Nigel Farage – armed with about as many facts as you'd find in a Harry Potter novel – interrupted, harangued and blustered his way through the entire show, cheered on by a xenophobic section of the audience...

..."It was truly wonderful to see Nigel talk over Fiona Bruce, contradict himself and tell demonstrable lies on national television.

"I mean, the way he claimed that the UK is simultaneously losing jobs to low-skilled immigrants and also depriving other countries of highly-skilled immigrants – brilliant! How Farage attempts to mask his racism beneath a rhetoric of border control is masterful.

"And then there was the WTO question from the audience. Unable to answer, Farage spouted ill-informed nonsense about trade deals which demonstrated his sheer desperation to leave the EU at any cost to the British people."

Spot on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:15 AM

Is Theresa May guilty of treason? Plenty of readers think so. Politicians would be wise to listen up


almost a year ago

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/07/11/theresa-may-guilty-treason-plenty-readers-think-politicians/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:44 AM

”Is Theresa May guilty of treason? Plenty of readers think so.”

And a perfect illustration of the reason why we have highly-trained lawyers and judges to debate, and make decisions on, questions of law in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:06 AM

and the ballot box for when we disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:13 AM

John, I am disappointed in you :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 11:05 AM

"trason"
This is the braindead who considers criticism of elected politicians "Anglophobic"
Why is anybody even bothering responding to this ultra-extremist nonsense ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:21 PM

Now back to important matters concerning Brexit:

"THERESA MAY has lost the support of one of the Tory party’s most prominent financial backers to Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party following her failure to leave the EU on time.
The Conservative Party is on track for an “absolute mauling” and Labour is braced for huge losses in the EU elections as the Brexit crisis looks set to change the political landscape of the UK, a recent poll has found.

Brexit will rip support from the UK’s major parties as disillusioned parties turn to Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party in the May 23 elections in in protest against Theresa May’s handling of the UK’s exit from the EU.

Anand Menon, director of think-tank The UK in a Changing Europe, said Theresa May’s ruling government would not call an early election while the UK remains in the EU because they are expecting an “absolute mauling”.

In response to Mr Tusk's claim that there is a 30 percent chance Brexit will be cancelled, a Government spokesman said: "The British people voted to leave the EU in the biggest democratic exercise in our history and the government is focused on delivering that result.

“MPs have already voted on a second referendum a number of times and rejected it."

Both Labour and Conservatives will pay a heavy price for trapping us in the twilight zone!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:24 PM

At least in the case of Hilary Clinton there was a possible law being broken,

Nope. And it's Hillary. It was never was the case of a law being broken, just GOP and Trump bullshit to try to influence the election. And two years after the election he still feels the need to fight that fight, probably to try to justify the lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:30 PM

It’s hilarious seeing people queueing up to join, and vote for, the party of the person who, when the Referendum result became known, shat his nether-garments and ran for the hills - too much of a coward to actually take responsibility for the delivery of that which his lies had brought to pass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 01:57 PM

Nope. And it's Hillary. It was never was the case of a law being broken

Thanks for the correction, SRS. (Though by my typing standards having the name recognisable at all is a bonus *smile*)

You are closer to the US side than I am, of course, so obviously I will defer to you. But while I am clear no law was broken, wasn't there an accusation of a law being broken? Which there isn't with May.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:25 PM

wasn't there an accusation of a law being broken

That accusation and dozens more - all repeatedly proven groundless.

Unlike the documented cases of the law being broken by Trump and his acolytes.

The Republicans are now the party of utter bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 May 19 - 08:29 PM

My wife deals with over 200 federal emails per day. Hillary had over 500.
Mrs. Clinton WAS GUILTY of breaking a guideline, not a law or statute, not a grandfathered law, not even an official federal policy.

She was grilled by a republican congressional committee for an actual 12 hours until her voice gave out. It amounted to the same result as Bengasi, nothing.


If Trump had been successful in jailing Hillary, other Trump opponents and the Democratic Party could have been criminalized by now.
Instead you can visit some of his cabinet in prison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 19 - 02:27 AM

This thread os risking getting onto Trump and Hillary, rather than keeping with Brexit. All I intended to say is that Farage rallies appear to be using exactly the same techniques as Trump's did. Whether the UK cries of "Lock her up!" were simply aping Trump or were heartfelt as they certainly were at Trump's rallies I can't say, not having been at either. But both were meaningless unfounded emotional manipulation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Now for some facts about brexit:
A poll of polls showed that more than half of voters who backed the Conservatives in the 2017 general election now intend to vote for the Brexit Party.
        The analysis indicates that the Conservatives are on course in this month’s European Parliament elections for the lowest share in history for the governing party in any national vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 May 19 - 06:14 AM

Conservatives are worried they might come sixth in the European Elections. Why so high? Given that their headbangers have deserted to the Brexit party or UKIP, the more reasonable among them will go with either Change UK or the Lib Dems, Scottish and Welsh to SNP or Plaid, even if lifelong Tories cannot vote Labour, there is loads of choice. And its not meaningless as a FPTP election would be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 19 - 06:29 AM

Why so high?

Ask the Financial Times. They wrote the article!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 19 - 08:59 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:17 AM

I detect some confusion about what a lie is and is not. Being wrong is not a lie. Nigel repeatedly said we would be leaving on March 29th but he said it in good faith. It turned out not to be true, but that does mean it was a lie, just false. Equally, when Teresa May said it - at least to begin with - it was said in good faith and so mistaken, but not a lie.


Ah, that old story again.
Assuming that I am the ´Nigel´ referred to, do you not recall checking the basis of your claim, and finding that I hadn´t actually used the claim you attributed to me?
If it´s too much trouble I´ve scrolled back, and it´s in your earlier statement:
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:07 AM

Nigel and I have been comparing predictions, which I summarised as

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing.


Since it is now 1st April, I thought I would check up where we were. I think we will all agree that my half was right: we are still trying to decide what to do. However, it turns out I don't have Nigel's prediction quite right. What he said was:

====
Subject: RE: BS: Predictions for the coming new year
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:46 PM

UK will leave EU on WTO terms.


I´m still hoping that my prediction will be correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 19 - 09:14 AM

We have reached a point where we can not stomach our vices or its cure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 19 - 10:21 AM

As I was emphasing the difference between being mistaken and lying, and said you were NOT lying, that is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think, Nigel? The date was implicit because no one was talking about any other date at the time. I acknowledged I knew of no post where you had explicitly said it and am happy to do so again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 19 - 01:08 PM

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 34% (+6)
LAB: 21% (-7)
LDEM: 12% (+5)
CON: 11% (-3)
GRN: 8% (+2)
UKIP: 4% (+1)
CHUK: 3% (-4)

Looks like the village idiots have a clear lead, and in a democracy no IQ test is required for voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 03:10 AM

Evidence, if any were needed, of what BREXIT IS ALL ABOUT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 19 - 03:47 AM

That a lot of Brexit supporters are prepared to vote for the Brexit Party in the EU election is no surprise. However, that it seems a lot of them might be prepared to vote for it in a general election when, apart from a hard Brexit, it has not yet published any policies at all does give the 'village idiot' epithet credence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 04:21 AM

"'village idiot' epithet credence."
Self identification Mac
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 19 - 04:23 AM

Why have a link entitled "What Brexit is all about" that merely discusses upcoming EU elections?

We all know that Brexit now is all about reclaiming democracy from parliament. It is no longer merely Brexit that people are voting for.

I would say Farage has far more chance of becoming PM than steptoe senior and with each successive poll support grows for the Brexit party. Very very dramatic implications for the future of UK politics seeing as the party was only created weeks ago.
A clear reaction to Parliament defying the will of the people. The conclusion is undeniable!

The present numbers beat Labour and Conservative combined and that still leaves the tactical voting for the libdems looking for a useful home in order to further smite the two parties defying the electorate.

The EU elections will definitely create a "popcorn" evening of entertainment when the results come in. The subsequent wailing and gnashing of teeth will be a joy to behold!


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Mudcat time: 13 December 2:23 AM EST

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