BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:41 PM

More project fear from the gruniard

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/john-bolton-trade-deal-uk-colonise

But if it ever became a choice between becoming a US state with a clearly stated bill of rights, or an EU vassalage, the answer is obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM

So the other thread did get closed then?

I will transfer my lack of response to this thread, but I could not let this wonderful sentence in an email from my MP go by unrecorded:

We are on our third Prime Minister since the referendum, I place the responsibility for that at the EU’s door.

Everything is the EU's fault, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:38 PM

It is absolutely patently Trump's primary intention
is to do everything in his power to weaken all other nations..
..whether they be competitors or allies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

"This will continue after leaving, however we leave."
Surely the point is not what Trade will maintain but how will they replace tTHAT WHICH WILL BE LOST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM

So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:20 PM

”We do lots of trade already with the US without a deal. This will continue after leaving, however we leave.”

I’m sure you’re right, Stan. But that’s not the worry, is it? The worry is that Bozo and his cohorts are in cahoots with Trump’s bunch and desperate for a ‘deal’, and that any deal the Americans are prepared to enter into with the UK will be very heavily weighted in the US’s favour. Don’t forget Trump’s election battle-cry - “America First!”.

Get ready for a diet of chlorine, steroids, and vaccines, and a privatised health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:01 PM

We do lots of trade already with the US without a deal. This will continue after leaving, however we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:40 AM

NEW WARMONGER IN THE WHITEHOUSE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:24 AM

Nancy Pelosi has said that the chances of a trade deal getting through Congress on the back of a crash-out, leaving the backstop trashed and the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy, are nil. A trade deal with the US anytime soon is in the realms of clouds and cuckoos. Johnson doesn't appear to be relaying that bad news. But he wouldn't, would he?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:57 AM

I also note that no matter how many friends Ireland has in the US congress, those in that congress won't stand up to trump and if they tried he'd just go around them anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:56 AM

Bolton has the EU sussed with referendums. They take the Robert the Bruce approach of try try and try again until the right answer is given.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:10 AM

I note that the US, with the horrid John Bolton at the helm (arguably at least twice as vile as Trump), is gleefully pursuing us for when we leave the EU, which Trump hates with a vengeance. It isn't about giving us a good deal (which will take many years and which will come laden with unpalatable conditions). It's about driving wedges on this side of the Atlantic. Long may the US be a waning force in the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

An interesting poll of how MPs think they should act and how most of their electorate think they should act.


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/13/are-mps-elected-exercise-their-own-judgement-or-do?utm_source=t

"As Burke found 250 years ago, constituents have very different ideas, with 63% of Britons saying that MPs are elected “to act according to the wishes of their constituents, even when this goes against their own judgement”. In contrast to the system Burke proposed, this is the ‘delegate model of representation’."

But it must be pointed out that Burke only flourished in his later career because he was elected to rotten boroughs.

Today more people are enfranchised and far better educated and capable of insisting their representatives represent them.
The next General Election will clarify this stance to the nth degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:52 AM

Not directly connected with Brexit but very much a part of the unelected Nigel Farages attempts to create an image as a straight- talking, beer swilling man-of-the-people in order to become part of Brexit's populist Government
Farage has made a speech in Australia where he humiliated members of the Royal family (Gawd luv them)
He ridiculed Megan and Harry's decision to have only two children in oder to highlight the dangers of overpopulation, sneered at Prince Charles's take on Global Warming, saying it would be better if he died before the queen and described the late Queen Mother as an "overweight, gin-drinking chainsmoker
Apparently it all went down very well in republican-minded Australia.
Amazing what political ambition does to patriots who wish to climb the greasy pole
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:23 AM

Of course I should have added that you may not want a compromise that partially satisfies most people. You may be of the "like it or lump it" school and say that just crashing out is best. I don't like that idea for a number of reasons, most of which I have already covered. If that is your opinion then, fair enough. If it does all work out for the best, take the credit. If it all goes pear shaped though will you take responsibility or just blame someone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:47 AM

Headline voting figures
Con 31 +2
Lab 27 -3
TBP 16 +1
LD 16 NC
Grn 4 -1
SNP 3 NC
UKIP 1 NC


"All the 17/18c declarations about parliamentary supremacy are mostly penned by lawyer MPs. And they were writing about parliament as a way of countering the power of the monarch.
Until the 1832 Reform Act, the franchise was so sketchily minimal that nobody could claim the people had any way of exercising popular sovereignty, and education was so basic among the majority that it was not considered desirable.
After 1832, the people made their wishes ever clearer, forcing governments into the Repeal of the Corn Laws, social and electoral reform (prodded by the massive wave of Chartists).
The monarchy retreated from power - Victoria became progressively more arms length with governments, letting them legislate.
At no time in the 19th or 20th centuries did anybody say, oh never mind the government, we'll just leave it to parliament. George V enterprisingly banged the politicians' heads together in 1931 when the parties were fighting internal civil wars, and ordered them to realign and form a National Government to pass legislation the majority of the voters desperately demanded and needed, to deal with the slump.
If power did not come from the people, those MPs would not be sitting in that chamber at all."


Rees-Mogg addressing the "only advisory" element of the referendum. Bearing in mind, all referenda, bar the AV one in the UK have always been advisory and the result enacted upon (simply because the status quo won on the day).He said "Ah, those opposite and those in the court are claiming 'But it was only advisory'. Advisory to whom? Were we to advise ourselves? After all, we, in this house, voted overwhelmingly to allow the referendum to take place, so advising ourselves on what to do would be a pointless task if ever there was one. No, we were asking for the British people to advise us what to do, and their advice was given plainly that we must leave the European Union. Do we ignore their advice? Never. Only at our peril. "

"By passing the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill 2017 Parliament and the government ruled that the result of the Referendum 2016 was to be formally and unswervingly enacted.
Passing the Withdrawal Act 2018 enacted the full process. Parliamentary opposition to its own legislation is pointless. It has no further role, and remainer MPs have left themselves no more time to change their little minds yet again. The government is not minded to request a treaty change, and parliament cannot in law insist it does so.
Parliament has in fact just demonstrated that it is not supreme or sovereign at all. Even with the most bigoted bully the Speaker's Chair has ever seen, it is powerless to squash the people's vote to re-establish our national sovereignty - and It must now sit back and gnash its teeth helplessly."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM

I am no longer asking for any positive predictions as, over the last 3 years, that has proved useless. I was asking on the last thread for ideas which may help to get what is right for the country and will satisfy the desires of most people. I know we cannot sway opinion from here but I am interested in what our resident leavers, particularly Stanron and Nigel, think is a good way forward.

Yes, this is a theoretical exercise. The ideas may not be achievable.
But neither was the internet not long ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:20 AM

MPs are not in Parliament to follow ‘the wishes of voters’. That’s not how Representative Democracy works. Why do Leave supporters find it such a difficult concept to understand? How many times does it need to be said before it sinks in?

The Responsibilities of an MP

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:43 AM

My disparaged post about a poll clearly stated it was by Ipsos Mori.
Strangely enough they have their own website, just like YouGov.
There you can double check the results to your heats content.

A more recent result yesterday:
A ComRes poll found 54 per cent of the public agree that the Prime Minister Boris Johnson 'needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending Parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it' . The poll also uncovered a widespread disillusionment with the political process, with 88% of respondents feeling MPs were 'out of touch' with the public, and 89% saying they 'ignore the wishes of voters and push their own agendas' on Brexit. Asked whether they thought Parliament was more in tune with the public than Mr Johnson, 62% disagreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM

Thanks, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:56 PM

Re-opened. Play nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

Copy and paste the first sentence into your browser. The post was lifted straight from the Express, that left-wing bastion of fair comment and unbiased reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

Once again no link, so we cannot check the veracity of his post.

This is despite being asked to provide links on numerous occasions.

If he is so confident of what he posts why is he so relucant to supply the origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM

An unattributed copy and paste from the Express from Iains, pretending it's his own work. How honest. How Lord bloody Haw-Haw. He was told what to say too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:42 AM

Tidings of great Joy! Poll wants to exile compo to the cabbage patch.

Since taking over as leader of the party in September 2015, Jeremy Corbyn has attempted to put Prime Ministers David Cameron, Theresa May and now Boris Johnson under as much pressure as possible in his quest to win the keys to 10 Downing Street. He has upped the ante since the EU referendum in June 2016, looking to take advantage of the Brexit chaos that has swept through the Government and Westminster over the past year years.
In his first heated clash with Mr Johnson in the House of Commons last Thursday, Mr Corbyn again called for a general election, raging the British people should choose the next Prime Minister and not the 160,000 Tory members.

But a major new poll has revealed a growing number of voters want the Labour Party to axe their current leader before the next general election.

The survey by Ipsos Mori of 1,0007 UK adults found 62 percent now want the party to replace him before the country next goes to the polls, compared to 55 percent a year ago.

I prefer him   where he is- he is the epitome of uselessness!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 08:11 AM

More 'gpod' news from Brexit
The Bank of England has cut its predictions of economic growth because of the continuing deteriorating situation - they have also declared that the economy will be hit severely if Britain leaves without a deal
Javid has announced that the Tories will use £2 billion of the taxpayers money in order to leave on time "we don't want to but we see no alternative"

The real 'good news is that the Tories stand to have their majority reduced to one if the Welsh by-election goes as predicted
So not all bad news then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 06:18 AM

That is correct, David. Trying to assess "benefits" or otherwise in purely money terms is dismal. What about the cultural benefits brought about by easy travel, or the fact that we will never have a pan-European war again? And I didn't hear too many complaints fifteen years ago when all those highly-skilled dentists, plumbers, electricians, and healthcare workers flooded in when we didn't have enough of our own...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:55 AM

Quite amusing in its way to see the Treasury are now discussing the possibility of an emergency budget because of Brexit. Project fear, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:43 AM

There is no net cost of the UK being in the European Union. Only a net benefit. You must include the benefits to citizens as well as to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

One of the early predictions of Brexit was that it would be the end of the United Kingdom
It has made a United Ireland a distinct possibility, the SNP are calling for a new referendum on devolution, Welsh farmers are talking about civil unrest after Johnson's descending on them.... seems like there was some substance to the suggestion
Should cheer up the little Englanders no end - wonder if they'll adopt the title sinn fein ("ourselves")
Interesting days
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:47 AM

Ah, the Beeching approach....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:38 AM

Well if it costs all that dough to keep Northern Ireland, let's get rid! And while we're at it, let's get rid of all those other costly areas too, such as Tyneside, Merseyside, Wales, West Yorkshire and Cornwall! In fact, let's get rid of everywhere except London!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 03:44 AM

"An interesting snippet regarding Brexit and the possibility of Irish reunification."
An extremly edited and manipulated quote which carefully leaves out the important bits

On Brexit, Gosling believes that it “will clearly be damaging”. He predicts that the Northern Ireland economy will be between 2.5% and 10% smaller than it would have been without Brexit.
He explained to the Féile audience why big companies like Bombardier and Wrightbus are worried about markets in Great Britain as their trade tends to be east-west, and their individual transactions have the greatest value.
Meanwhile, SMEs – who have the greatest volume of transacitons – are more worried about north-south trade.
Paul reminded the audience about the scale of pubic spending in Northern Ireland, the area with the highest public spend per person in the UK.
Official figures explain that the annual net cost to the UK being in the European Union is £8.1 billion. Whereas the size of the annual subvention to Northern Ireland is a whopping £9.2 billion.
It costs more for Northern Ireland to be within the UK than for the UK to be in the EU!
He asked: “why does the United Kingdom pay £9.2 billion a year to keep Northern Ireland?”
While supportive of a border poll, Paul explained during the Q&A that he believes that there is no rush. Better to wait for the impact of Brexit to hit, show how the Irish economy weathers it while the north struggles, and then make a call for a poll.
Any exit from the UK should not be “big bang”.
“We need to get to a negotiated solution in which we move stage-by-stage to a United Ireland because it is in the interest of the Great Britain taxpayer that they reduce the cost of Northern Ireland.”
Paul calculates that the subvention would be somewhat lower if Northern Ireland belonged to the Republic of Ireland rather than the United Kingdom. Some costs wouldn’t transfer across, or would be substantially lower: eg, contribution to defence spending, paying off the UK debt, smaller matters like the Royal Family.

THE ARTICLE IN FULL

A rather spectacular example of teh shyster way that Brexit is being sold to teh gullible, I would say
MORE GOOD NEWS FOR BREXIT BELFAST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 03:22 AM

An interesting snippet regarding Brexit and the possibility of Irish reunification.
Official figures explain that the annual net cost to the UK being in the European Union is £8.1 billion. Whereas the size of the annual subvention to Northern Ireland is a whopping £9.2 billion. It costs more for Northern Ireland to be within the UK than for the UK to be in the EU

Of course for any vote on unification to occur the republic must give consent.(and be prepared to dig deep in their pockets) Typical of the media to only give a partial story.

I find all this of rather more pressing concern than the resident pedant's focus on straws, but then if he cannot construct links it rather betrays an inability to think clearly or to follow simple rules.
Really best ignored in fact. He only pops up to insult flame and troll.
Just look at his recent contributions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:51 PM

Fine. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

My appreciation is that the idiot is you, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:43 PM

Sometimes the invocation of "pedantics" is an amazing way of exposing idiots. Try to not align yourself too closely is my advice, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:16 PM

Pedantics clutch at trivialities. The broad sweep cuts the hay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:14 PM

"I detect a clutching of straws!"

It's clutching AT straws, old chap. Even Mr Staines wouldn't have made that elemental mistake. And the straws in question are not, as you appear to suppose, drinking straws, but straws of the dried grassy variety. Tsk. He's going to be very cross with you...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:55 PM

As I said earlier, it takes a special kind of mental dwarfism to gloat over the troubles of others
I was half-joking when I first came to that conclusion - it seems first impressions are often the most reliable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM

"Fianna Fáil, "
Formed and led by Eoin O'Duffy who was President of the Executive Council; Éamon de Valera dismissed O'Duffy as commissioner; O@Duffy that July, O'Duffy was offered and accepted leadership of the ACA and renamed it the National Guard. He re-modelled the organisation, adopting elements of European fascism, such as the Roman straight-arm salute, uniforms and huge rallies. Membership of the new organisation became limited to people who were Irish or whose parents "profess the Christian faith". O'Duffy was an admirer of Benito Mussolini, and the Blueshirts adopted corporatism as their chief political aim.

I spoke to Dooley before the last election ahd he told me why he believed Donald Trump should be welcomed to Ireland
Someone whose opinions should be taken very, very seriously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:15 PM

I agree, Raggy, the Brexiteers are not showing much confidence that no deal will be a great success. They sound really desperate to blame someone - anyone - if it doesn't work out. Boris will tell them off for lack of optimism, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

Timmy Dooley, Communications Spokesman for Fianna Fáil, blasted Varadkar’s “failure to engage in basic diplomacy over the past 2 years” in a now-deleted tweet:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:24 PM

It takes a special sort of mentality to gloat over other people's problems (especially those caused by the Party they support) and ignore those being caused daily to your own country
Maybe it's something they put in the water !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM

There is another US factor that so far I haven't seen discussed. If you cast your mind back to 'The Troubles' a very large number of - mainly east coast - Americans were quite willing to contribute to 'the cause'. And all those people have votes in upcoming presidential elections. Trump is certainly opposed to the EU as a concept, but he is also in favour of getting votes where he can. I would not be surprised to see quite a few comments from both sides trying to win the support of these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:13 PM

There has been a marked shift in recent days to start laying the blame for a "no-deal" with anyone who just happens to be there. Leo Vadarkar, Angela Merkel, the European Union in general.

Just so Johnson can try to claim it wasn't his fault. Will the British public fall for those lies. Sadly many will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:49 PM

I detect a clutching of straws!
Are they the stainless steel killer variety?
or the Blond bombshell re elect me plastic straws?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:26 PM

And that's no empty threat. Ireland has many friends in Congress and Trump will find it impossible to get a deal past them if they feel the the Good Friday Agreement is threatened. Which ditching the backstop will definitely do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

Looks like Boris & Co. can forget any sort of a trade deal with the U.S. if the Backstop is ditched.

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:16 PM

Nonsense. Varadkar represents a population not even the size of Yorkshire and he cannot even play cricket!