BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 11:02 PM

Correct, Steve. During the Referendum campaign in 2016, Every sentence Bozo uttered ended with the vile Cummings’s mantra, “Take Back Control”. Now, every sentence includes, “Get Brexit Done”.

I just wonder why people fall for meaningless slogans. Don’t Brexiteers actually think about what they hear?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 09:10 PM

"Get brexit done" is the latest Cummings mantra. You'll hear it a hundred times a day from here on in.

Great piece by Catherine Bennett in today's Observer (probably on the Guardian website too but I haven't checked) about the Beeb and its vox pops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 08:53 PM

The only way "to be done with it" would be to abandon the whole Brexit enterprise.

In fact that needn't even involve reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. All we voted for was to leave the European Union. Nothing to do with getting out of the Customs Union or the Single Market, or ending freedom of movement around Europe. Brexiteers have repeatedly said that just leaving the EU without those things wouldn't be Brexit. Fine, no one never voted for "Brexit".

In fact undoubtedly for a lot of people their vote had nothing to do with Europe at all. Voting to Leave was a great way to kick out at David Cameron and the Tory government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

Absolutely correct, DMcG. I do have to smile when I hear the rhetoric of Johnson and his cronies, when they go on about ‘Getting Brexit over and done’ on 31/10/19. Of course, it will be no such thing - it will be just The Start. The start of years and years of negotiations.

There is no such thing as a ‘No Deal Brexit’ - the deals have to be done? It’s a question of whether they are done pre- or post-Leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:08 AM

I was talking recently with a local florist - a one-person business, not part of a huge chain. They are not really interested in politics and don't follow it much, but are desperate for 'this mess' to be over: they do not know what it will cost them to provide tulips for a wedding next year, for example.


For interest, this is what a florist magazine site thinks, which seems to be trying to keep a fairly neutral stance to me.

So what this person wants is for it to be over, and that is more important than anything else. Which is why the 'no deal' rhetoric is so appalling in my view: those proposing that know that gets nothing 'over': it is necessarily the start of long periods of negotiation of new deals, which are, by definition, uncertain in their outcome. But it may deceive some people like this this to think it ends the uncertainties that are damaging their small businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 08:18 PM

There would be nothing in the British "constitution" that would make it unlawful to abrogate any treaties. Given an obedient Parliament there are no limits on what a British government can do. So long as the government stays within the law, as appropriately amended if need be, there is nothing the courts could do to stop it.

Where Mr Boris Johnson tripped up was that he did not stay within the law, and hadn't been able to change the law so that it allowed him to do what he wanted to do.

The only thing that in theory could get in the way would be a refusal by the Head of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:32 PM

Jsonon's behaviour linked to Labour MPs office (friend of Jo Cox) being raided by Brexit criminal screaming "fascist"

I think he was a remainiac. The clue is in the name!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

Jsonon's behaviour linked to Labour MPs office (friend of Jo Cox) being raided by Brexit criminal screaming "fascist"
Johnson says he deplores violence but refuses to apologise for hs violence inciting language
Nice to see our PMs are still setting a good example
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:07 AM

According to the BBC Live feed "If Johnson does skip PMQs, that would be seen as a gross courtesy to the Commons."

I am sure there will amend it to 'discourtesy' in a minute or two, but they may have been right first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:40 PM

One advantage of EU membership has been that it has guaranteed continued membership of the Council of Europe's Convention of Human Rights Conventional.

The statement above seems to pay no heed to the fact that the UK is a signatory to The seven UN treaties :

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights             (ICESCR)
International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD)
Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)
Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment (CAT)
Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC)
Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD)

By ratifying the treaties, the UK has pledged to make sure its domestic laws and policies comply with them. This means the Commission, Parliament and civil society can hold the Government to account against the terms of the treaties.

Formal monitoring of the UK’s treaty obligations is done by the relevant UN treaty body.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:27 PM

The irony is that in certain situations the absence of a written constitution can be less dangerous than having one. Our combination of having no written convention, but with Human Rights legislation that has put a limit on the powers of the government. One advantage of EU membership has been that it has guaranteed continued membership of the Council of Europe's Convention of Human Rights Conventional.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:27 PM

Good to see Corbyn is still avoiding the Elephant Trap, even though the Government has built the same obvious trap three times now. It smacks of a lack of imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:14 AM

Back in Charter 88 days, it had a written constitution as an objective. Margaret Thatcher responded with one of her wiser comments "Some of the most oppressive regimes have written constitutions."

Written constitutions have a major flaw: a determined wrecker can find loopholes. With an unwritten one, there is scope for addressing them at the time, as has just occurred.

That doesn't mean we should not have a written constitution, but it is no panacea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

A constitution can be dangerous too though. Look at the US second amendment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

The barrier in front of politicisation of the Supreme Court is that most of its decisions can be reversed by the executive through the legislature, if it can command a a majority.

It would be perfectly possible to pass a law that would make it legal to prorogue Parliament for any length of time and for any reason. In the same way it would be perfectly possible and perfectly legal to abolish any human rights legislation or sommon law rights. Getting out of the EU would make that a lot easier.

Not having any Constitution does have its dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:49 PM

What these judges have very clearly achieved is the politicisation of the judiciary. This will mean that the higher levels of the judiciary will inevitably follow the American pattern and become political appointments. This is as sure as night follows day. I am not convinced this is such a good idea.The Supreme Court finding has put a distinct twist on the 1688 bill of rights and smacks of judicial interference into the political realm.
This will have consequences yet to be seen. I suspect after the next general election the judicial interference in politics will be stopped in it's tracks by legislation clearly ringfencing what the judges can and cannot do. Similarly the actions of the speaker will be curtailed in such a way that legislation can only be passed with the consent of the ruling party. Parliament already has remedies it is called a general election. As it stands Parliament is in opposition to the people.
This can only be a shortlived affair before the people assert their rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

There seems to be some confusion amongst the Brexit-Bunch about the prorogation and the Supreme Court’s decision...

Not right bright are they, these Brexiteers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 11:09 AM

Under normal circumstances if a minister is found to have acted unlawfully they resign (or are asked to resign)

Is anyone taking bets that Johnson does not such thing.

He said he disagreed with the courts decision.

I suspect that most people found guilty of misdemeanors also disagree with the courts decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:37 AM

"because that is what we are mandated to do."
These pricks can't stop themselves lying - this is what they were mandated to do - this year, next year, sometime - and as things have obviously turned out - NEVER
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Don't the Tories here care what their leader continually lies on their behalf ? - Nigel !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:12 AM

What sense can there be having a Queen's Speech about the plans for the next session and then promptly having a General Election? That just means treating the Queen's Speech as Party Political Election Broadcast, and that sounds distinctly unconstitutional.

There is a strong case for impeaching Mr Boris Johnson for "high crimes and misdemeanours", with the House of Lords deciding on "the appropriate punishment within the law" - which rules out chopping his head off, as might have been his fate in the old days in the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:05 AM

I've just heard Johnson, speaking in America, saying that we have to get the UK out on the 31 October "because that is what we are mandated to do." Dunno whether to put that down to mere sloppy talk or a downright extra lie...

No binding referendum, no mandate, no parliamentary consent, no majority, no integrity, no respect for the rule of law...

Why we should ever hold this particular political promise sacred, above all the other broken ones, is anyone's guess... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:48 AM

Indeed. And the fact the Parliament will.ait tomorrow DURING the conference season is evidence that you cannot simply strike out the conference season as a time Parliament does not sit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:42 AM

Nigel, Parliament was prorogued (or not) for five whole weeks. When conferences are going on, parliament is recessed by general consensus, and may be recalled. It was open to Johnson to announce the usual few days' prorogation before the intended date of his Queen's Speech. He chose to do what the Supreme Court has soundly bollocked him for instead. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the difference between a recessed parliament and a prorogued parliament. They are a very long way from being the same thing in constitutional terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

If Johnson isn't finished Britain is - he's debased everything it claims to stand for
He should do what Powell did and apply to join the DUP
What a ***** shower
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:07 AM

Nigel. That was all discussed and reviewed in court and the judges have decided you are wrong. Disagree as much as you like, but it has be ruled on and simply repeating the argument that was judged faulty is a waste of effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

But that is exactly what Johnson did, prorogued Parliament for 'just a few days'. The rest of the 5 weeks (often claimed as the length of the prorogation) is just the usual break for the Party conferences.

The UK Parliament site gives details of the normal timings of Parliamentary recesses:
The House has breaks during the year when it doesn’t meet. The precise timings of recesses vary each year and dates are announced by the Leader of the House. The recess calendar lists the published dates.
Even if the dates haven't been announced yet, you can usually work out roughly when they will fall because recesses follow a general pattern (assuming that the State Opening of Parliament is at its normal time in May):
Whitsun recess: a week in late May to early June
Summer recess: late July to early September
Conference recess: Mid-September to early October (accommodating the party conferences)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:43 AM

I can't see him, in light of this judgement, daring to do it except for just the usual few days for a Queen's Speech. If we actually need one right now, that is...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:16 AM

It does leave open the possibility of proroguing the Parliament immediately. What poor old Queenie is supposed to do then when the judges said he prorogued specifically to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny is not exactly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:07 AM

Good old enemies of the people, eh! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:06 AM

What's on offer from Labour is reasonable and clear, and it's been Labour policy for months.

You're avin a laff boy!

1)only a slim majority of current Labour voters (52%) actually understand their own Brexit policy. Is it any wonder the omnishamblic party’s now languishing in third place?..

2)Labour voted for the referendum, and to trigger Article 50. Their manifesto promised to “accept the referendum result”. And they swore repeatedly that they wouldn’t overturn the decision made three years ago, by the many, not the few. Now, Labour’s true colours are showing

3)Banning private schools.It contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights, Protocol 1, Article 2:the right of parents to have their children educated in accordance with their religious and other views, allowing groups to educate children without being impeded by the nation state.

4) As the Independant eloquently states:
“We are committed to legislating for a second referendum within six months. Before that we’re going to go back to Brussels and negotiate a completely new deal in the space of a few weeks even though the last one took years.

“Then we’re going to have a special, one day conference in which the party will decide whether to back its own deal or whether to back Remain in the second referendum.

“But whatever that conference decides, the prime minister Jeremy Corbyn probably isn’t going to take any notice of it. He, the actual prime minister, is going to sit it out entirely. But it won’t just be him. After we’ve had this special, one day conference, nobody in the government will be expected to take any notice of it. They’re going to be free to campaign for whatever they like.”

As I have frequently stated they are the hokey cokey party

This labour fiasco will simply drive supporters to either the Libdems or Brexit party in the coming election and Labour will be destroyed.
Bring it on, I say

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:44 AM

"Though I'm viscerally opposed to referendums,"
I think this is important Steve
An access to referenda has changed the face of Ireland for the better - they have done what politicians have refused to do, on, pregnancy termination and homosexuality have been most noticable; in both cases they have not only achieved what they set out to do but they have loosened the grip of the Church on Irish politics forever - not bad for a country in the grip of religious fear
I look forward to ones on the rights of women and on the church's ownership of the Irish education system
A referendum can be the nearest working people ever have to a say in their lives - if it is constructed and run and policed responsibly and not allowed to be used to replace democracy with populism, as Brexit has

I think Corbyn is boxing clever in, rather than campaigning to overturn what is deliberately passed off as a democratic exercise, he is playing it by ear
He has to keep all the different facions of the Labour party together if it is ever follow the Socialist dream again
He also has the same contradictory problem that any Socialist has in being asked to support an organisation of Capitalist States on the decline (think about how they manipulated Greek Politics)
The EU is the best on the table at the present time, but that won't remain the case forever
I'm happy to support Europe - 'as the rope supports the hanged man' - for the time being
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

Anyone remember that Fox character, back in 2016, telling that huge whopper that the Brexit deal would be “The easiest deal ever”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:33 PM

Campaign as they wish except for no deal. That would be a mortal sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:20 PM

Though I'm viscerally opposed to referendums, I remember saying months ago, reluctantly, that I couldn't see any other way out of this mess. What's on offer from Labour is reasonable and clear, and it's been Labour policy for months. I'm disappointed that there won't be a concerted campaign to remain and I'd hope that the issue could be dealt with harmoniously. I should like to see Corbyn giving all his MPs, cabinet members included, free rein to campaign as they'd wish. He could say that right now. That would be a bold move and might just help to heal the rifts a little bit. Any instruction from on high to "stay neutral" would be divisive, and would have what few MPs who complied telling fibs about their own sentiments. There would be massive disobedience. I suppose the EU has to stay out of our party politics, but I'd bet they'd be itching to say that Corbyn's ideas for a deal, which keep us in a customs union and close to the single market and which would obviate the need for a backstop or any other of the nonsense we're being peddled about how the Tories would like to handle the border, would be a damn sight better and far more acceptable all round in the EU than anything they've heard so far. It still wouldn't be in the best interests of the country, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:55 PM

I find it strange that the suggestion that many people didn't really understand what was involved in the choice offered at the referendum is seen as insulting those who voted for Brexit - but that the policy Labour purposes to offer the voters is far too difficult for ordinary people to understand. That's surely a hell of a sight more insulting.

What's difficult about it? Let the people decide whether they prefer a Brexit deal that has offered by the EU or for the UK to remain in the EU and keep working to improve it.
A binding referendum this time, and on a real option, not on a mere slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

Thanks Nigel but it was the one that DMcG linked too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

This one sounds more likely to me to be the one referred to

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:03 PM

This one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM

The EU chief negotiator pours scorn on the recent attempts by the UK Governments at solutions to the problem of the Irish border issues.

Describing them at unacceptable.

So much for Johnson cautious optimism!!

Could someone please link to the article in today Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 11:42 AM

CHEER YOURSELF UP HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM

Generally, as I understand it, men with Johnson's level of hubris have very tiny poles. Like boy racers really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 08:17 AM

"dancing on his pole?"
There's me thinking Brexit was about keeping The Poles out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:52 AM

Wonder if it was payment for dancing on his pole?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:49 AM

Boris overruled the advice of Council Officials to award his pole-dancing friend £126,000 of Londoners hard-earned taxes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

Revealed this morning
Johnson failed to declare his friendship with American model turned consultant when he helped her acquire funding when he was mayor of London
Wonder if discussion on that will be prorogued until after Brexit !!
It's not what you know.... as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:52 AM

Methinkinks Brexit is quite likely to produce a whole batch of DAVID IRVINGS when blaming the people for this crass, self-harming decision wears thin
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

YET ANOTHER POSSIBLE BREXIT FATALITY

As Mandy Rice-Davies eloquently expressed it:

THEY WOULD SAY THAT WOULDN'T THEY?
The true reasons are far more complex, for anyone bothered to search.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:26 AM

YET ANOTHER POSSIBLE BREXIT FATALITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:17 AM

"And the Tory one … well, let's see."
I have little doubt that, if he thought he would get away with it Johnson would proroge this year's Tory conference
Why not - he's ripped democracy to shreds everywhere else
REMINDER OF THE LEVEL OF POND LIFE WE ARE DEALING WITH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

Well done, Jeremy. Now let's get on with what Labour conferences should be doing - ripping the bloody Tories to pieces!