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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Jim Carroll 18 Sep 19 - 02:31 AM
DMcG 18 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM
DMcG 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Sep 19 - 05:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM
DMcG 19 Sep 19 - 01:51 PM
Iains 19 Sep 19 - 02:12 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 02:51 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Sep 19 - 08:03 PM
Stanron 19 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 19 - 03:18 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM
Iains 20 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM
Iains 20 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 19 - 05:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 19 - 07:14 AM
DMcG 20 Sep 19 - 07:42 AM
DMcG 20 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 19 - 06:35 PM
DMcG 21 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM
Iains 21 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Sep 19 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Sep 19 - 06:26 AM
Iains 21 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Sep 19 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 19 - 06:49 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Sep 19 - 06:52 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 19 - 08:17 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 19 - 11:42 AM
Raggytash 23 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Sep 19 - 01:03 PM
DMcG 23 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM
Raggytash 23 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 19 - 08:55 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Sep 19 - 09:20 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Sep 19 - 09:33 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 19 - 03:44 AM
Iains 24 Sep 19 - 04:06 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 02:31 AM

Not won - that was the exit poll suggestion
Still too close to call
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

In one of the live feeds is the text of a motion that the MEPs are voting on. Assuming this passes, this is the EU undersanting of what some are calling 'a clean break':

The European parliament ...
Notes that there can be no transition period in the absence of the withdrawal agreement nor any ‘mini-deals’ put in place to help mitigate the disruption of a disorderly withdrawal of the UK from the EU;
Stresses that further negotiations between the EU and the UK after the UK has withdrawn from the EU without a deal can only take place on condition that the UK honours its obligations and commitments in respect of citizens’ rights, the financial settlement and the Good Friday agreement in all its parts;
Notes that in the case of a ‘no-deal exit’, the UK’s financial and other obligations will still exist; affirms that in such a case it will refuse to give consent to any agreement or agreements between the EU and the UK unless and until the UK honours its commitments;
Recalls that, once such commitments are met, future EU-UK relations negotiations will require strong safeguards and level playing field provisions with a view to safeguarding the EU’s internal market and avoiding placing EU firms at a potential unfair competitive disadvantage; reiterates in that respect the conditions set out in its resolution of 14 March 2018 not least as regards ensuring high levels of environmental, employment and consumer protection; notes that any free trade agreement that fails to respect such levels of protection would not be ratified by the European parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM

From the BBC live feed this morning:

=======
BBC Andrew Kerr
?
Final day of Supreme Court hearings into the legality of Parliamentary suspension. A top source from the UK Government said: "we’re stuffed". The other side remain optimistic - thinking it might go their way with 7/4 or 8/3 judge majority in their favour.

=======

The live feeds are interesting, though of course they absorb quite of a lot of time in monitoring. And as you would expect, the argument some Brexiteers have been making about the Bill of Rights has been raised, will be duly considered, and will influence the decision appropriately when it is reached.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:57 AM

Never thought I'd agree with this man -

Sir John Major has compared Boris Johnson to a dishonest estate agent,
saying that he had “ulterior motives” when he prorogued parliament.        
The former Tory prime minister,        whose lawyers will intervene today at the Supreme Court, has said in written submissions that Mr Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament was “unlawful”.
He argued that Mr Johnson’s justification for prorogation to bring forward        a new legislative programme “makes no sense and cannot be the true explanation”.
In a clear suggestion that Mr Johnson should not be believed, Sir John wrote that it would be “artificially naive” for the court to accept the prime minister’s stated reasons for the prorogation.

Talk about thieves falling out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM

Is this the same John Major who 'prorogued' Parliament for 3 weeks (not just 4/5 days) to avoid claims about "Cash for questions"?
Details https://fullfact.org/online/john-major-proroguing/, and is now saying that parliament has not been prorogued in the last 50 years?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:51 PM

Is this the same John Major who 'prorogued' Parliament for 3 weeks (not just 4/5 days) to avoid claims about "Cash for questions"?

Yes, and that was raised and discussed during the Supreme Court hearing. So it will be duly considered by senior judges and taken into account when they make their decision,

But greatly simplifying the argument presented, when John Major prorogued Parliament it made the Government and Parliament accountable to the electorate, whereas this occasion makes the Government less accountable. I am not a lawyer so I am sure that is a crude representation, but no doubt the transcripts will be available in due course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:12 PM

Labour slips to third place in the polls.

Why this bit of information was deleted earlier escapes me. Does a moderator not like the poll result, or simply displaying a bias?


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-election/liberal-democrats-overtake-the-labour-party-in-a-potential-general-election-p


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM

Iains: Maybe it's because your link goes to "Page not found".
Here is the story: Labour now third


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Not sure what that proves Nigel apart from the growing unpopularity of Brexit, given the Lib Dems's decision to kick in into touch without a second referendum
I Don't trust them any more than I do your now self-decimated minority party, but maybe they've found their way to winning the people's hearts your mob are happily losing
Maybe the opinions of those people are less important than the wafer thin majority that squeezed though this now provenly destructive decision

Your dumb and dumbest friend seems totally incapable of working out that THE MODS ON THIS FORUM HAVE NEVER, IN MY EXPERIENCE, DELETED ANYTHING ON POLITICAL GROUNDS - IT'S MORE THAN THEIR JOBS ARE WORTH - WHAT THEY DO DELETE IS THE PERMANENTLY ABUSIVE POSTINGS WHICH SOME PEOPLE SEEM INCAPABLE OF REFRAINING FROM POLLUTING THIS THREAD WITH - MORE POWER TO THEIR ELBOW
He needs to consider himself very lucky he hasn't been kicked out on his abusive arse long ago
Pass it on please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:51 PM

Nigel Farage on what's on offer
If you let it run, it gives views by Tony Benn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Not sure what that proves Nigel apart from the growing unpopularity of Brexit, given the Lib Dems's decision to kick in into touch without a second referendum


I was not trying to "prove" anything. Just replacing Iain's link with one that actually works.
Some of your colleagues seem to think that I never try to correct anything of Iain's. I have in the past, and I may again. But generally I agree with his viewpoint on Brexit, although we may be in the minority (against a vociferous majority) here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM

By your friends shall we know thee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:03 PM

"I was not trying to "prove" anything"
I didn't suggest you were - I asked what the link preves and as Iain's is obviously incapable of carrying out a conversation without vomiting abuse, I thought you might be able to help
Must say, I have never noticed you either supporting nor criticising Iains - I have suggested on numerous occasions that you and Stanron avoid many of these discussions because you might not wish to be associated with his behaviour - who's to blame you ?
I've also suggested that these threads might benefit from some articulate, intelligent responses from those who support the crazy rabbit hole Britain has fallen into
We are no nearer to getting that than we were at the beginning
For me, Brexit was launched on an immoral and totally undemocratic platform and the longer it has gone on the more immoral and the less democratic it has become
I have enough faith in humanity to believe that not all of those on the right support how Brexit was sold, the damage it has already done to our society, and the further damage it is almost set fair to continue to do
I came here in the hope of sharing agred and contrasting ideas with others - why are we not able to do it on the subject that is going to leave its mark on all out lives ?
Help me out - instead of providing links to meanless non-information, why not tell us what you think ?

For the record - even Boris Johnson's colleagues and supporters believe he deliberately lied about not knowing the press was at the hospital yesterday
on tonight's Questions Time - the lady from The Daily Telegraph said he lied - shouted it even, and the incredibly evasively dishonest legal lady refused to deny he had and spoke about everything other than the questions put to her
Guilt as charged Bozza
I fell deeper in love with Fiona tonight as she nodded vigorously when someone said Johnson couldn't be trusted - wonder if she's married !!

It was a relief that none of them sang as low as the bum wipe Press (and our own own equivalent here) in describing the father of the very ill three month old child as anything but - "the father of a very ill three month child"
Only the lowest scum and shitwaders would have described him as anything else - certainly not a "Labour activist"
Only scum-buckets of the lowest order would sink that low, wouldn't they!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM

The idea that Boris 'lied' about the press is ludicrous. It's a matter of inaccurate definitions. The clue is in the word 'press'. You know, the Gutenberg press. The device that transferred ink from a copper plate or a reverse text composite to paper was a screw thread driven press. It became the default name for newspapers.

Cameras are 'media'. Younger generations than me might think of TV and film as press but I don't. Cameras and TV are newer versions of the press but to me they are not the same.

Johnson has spent a large part of his working life employed by the press. He looked around and saw no journalists. He said there were no press and he was right. He was right because he can tell the difference between text based press and moving visual media. Of course to be able to discern differences requires an ability to discriminate. We all know what Labour thinks about discrimination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM

So the father of the child mistakenly used the wrong word to describe the assembled multitude of photographers? Doesn’t alter the fact of Johnson’s purpose for being there one iota. He was there for a photo-opportunity, to pretend that he’s doing something worthwhile, nothing more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:18 AM

So, Stanron, you believe Boris did not lie but chose chose to play word games with the distraught father of a seriously ill child. How is that any better? Then his supporters, including you presumably, chose to add to the suffering of the same distraught father by slagging him off and saying he was using his child as a political pawn.

Politics has become critically sick itself and Boris is the epitome of that illness. I hope it is terminal and when it passes this incarnation is replaced with something more caring and compadionate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM

"The idea that Boris 'lied' about the press is ludicrous."
It was openly admited by the Daily Telegraph woman last night, who, after trying to make excuses for him, shouted over the jeers "OK - he lied, I don't deny it"
The other tory refused to comment but instead, entered into a diatribe about how much money they were spending on The NHS
They are proving over and over again that they care more about their place in Government and the privilege it brings than they do the people who elect them
I watched the original interview on Sky on the night it happened - he lied and he lied stupidly
The interviewee actually pointed to the press camera and Johnson grinned and shrugged - in his lovely oafish way
The whole thing was a disgusting photo-opportunity for him and his few mates - he can't even claim to be acting for his party any more - having sacked the best of them
Instead of preening in front of the cameas, every last one of these people need to be locked in deep discussion tying to dig Britain out ogf the mess their antics has sunk it into - on the instructions of the unelected cummings, he silences the only voice the British people have and ponces off electioneering
Is that reall what you believe Britain's leaders should be doing at a time like this ?

A summary of the trustworthiness of hand-on-heart Johnson
JOHNSON'S HONESTY IN 37 EPISODES

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html

Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

Nigel the first link I posted was by Guido

https://order-order.com/2019/09/19/lib-dems-leapfrog-labour-latest-poll/

Quoting guido seems to upset people, including a politically motivated moderator.
As yet I have seem not one suggestion that Guido's factual content is inaccurate, a charge that the Guardian is guilty of on occasions!

Therefore I will ask all the moderators Why was it deleted?
It was a reference to a respected polling organisation.

We have had very recent postings on clearly Brexit threads commenting on the Israeli elections.

Why are they not deleted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

I asked what the link preves and as Iain's is obviously incapable of carrying out a conversation without vomiting abuse

Examples please!

What I do is correct many of your more asinine statements. Sometimes this requires pointing out that you are a fool. If you regard that as abuse so be it.
You are not capable of making a post without being both provocative and insulting.

It is the classic definition of trolling.
You are far and away the biggest troublemaker on this site. If not for your folk music 'contributions' your arse would have been grass on this forum years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:00 AM

Examples please!
Try "politically motivated moderator."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM

Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM

Anyway, chaps...

It could be that the ordure will collide with the rapidly-whirring blade at the Labour conference this weekend. The left are going to press Corbyn to campaign all-out for remain. Looked at in the round, his plan to get a deal that keeps us in a customs union (thereby, among other things, eliminating the border issue) and close to the single market seems like a decent compromise, but the stubborn fact remains that that would still not be in the country's best interests. That could only be served by staying in the EU. As we know, no-one on this board or anywhere else has managed, in three years, to tell us how we'd be better off out. If he gets a deal to sign up to, he can hardly then campaign for remain. This has got to be sorted before an election campaign otherwise we're stuffed. What we don't need is a bust-up this weekend. Unfortunately, the left are pretty good at doing that. And I'm one of 'em...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:14 AM

Dave
If he's not going to be shifted for attacking the Mods, he's never going to go
Some of us believe he has been planted to sabotage this forum - his love affair with T.R. suggests who that might be -
His undermining of this forum by attackings its officers adds to that suggestion
I have no more to say on this matter
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:42 AM

I think all the party conferences this year are going to be fairly dramatic. The LibDem ones occasionally have great enthusiasm ("Prepare for Government", Cleggmania) which ends up not getting very far, but the Remove decision is I think in a different league: it could have a major effect. Admittedly splitting the remain vote and letting the Leave groups in by default, but a major effect nevertheless.

As you say, the Labour one will have a great deal to fight about over its Brexit policy statement that will drive the next Manifesto.

And the Tory one … well, let's see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM

"Remove decision"?? Revoke, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:35 PM

We could be in for a major rumpus over Tom Watson. Damn...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM

We could be in for a major rumpus over Tom Watson. Damn...

I would say we are already in one, simply by tabling the matter at the NEC. It is a completely unnecessary battle, naturally. Have the real and significant battle over the Brexit policy, then Tom either falls in line with it, or can be "regretfully stood down" on a matter if principle if he opposes conference's decision. Tabling an NEC motion before the Brexit composite is even written immediately creates charges of manipulation and says the party is vulnerable to internal pressure groups for whom control of the party outweighs any other matter. Red meat for the tabloids...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

Indeed. On Brexit and another referendum I find meself more in agreement with Watson than Corbyn. I think that Labour should uncompromisingly campaign for remain. But Watson has spent several years unfailingly trying to undermine Corbyn. He's a pain in the arse, a disloyal thorn in the side and a bloody lightweight to boot. It speaks highly of the democratic values of the party that he's been allowed to try to damage the leader for so long. But these manoeuvres reek of a car crash. Daft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

New polling by Ipsos MORI today has revealed Jeremy Corbyn is solidifying his position as the least popular Leader of the Opposition in the history of British politics. No surprise he keeps voting down an election…

At the end of June, Corbyn dropped to the lowest ever LOTO rating with -58 approval, but today he has surpassed even that – dropping a clear four points behind Michael Foot’s personal best. He went on to lead Labour to its worst defeat since before the second world war, granting the Tories a 144 seat majority…

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1175021691124236289

Looks like magic grandpa needs to pull a few rabbits out of the hat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

Well done, Jeremy. Now let's get on with what Labour conferences should be doing - ripping the bloody Tories to pieces!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:17 AM

"And the Tory one … well, let's see."
I have little doubt that, if he thought he would get away with it Johnson would proroge this year's Tory conference
Why not - he's ripped democracy to shreds everywhere else
REMINDER OF THE LEVEL OF POND LIFE WE ARE DEALING WITH
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:26 AM

YET ANOTHER POSSIBLE BREXIT FATALITY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

YET ANOTHER POSSIBLE BREXIT FATALITY

As Mandy Rice-Davies eloquently expressed it:

THEY WOULD SAY THAT WOULDN'T THEY?
The true reasons are far more complex, for anyone bothered to search.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:52 AM

Methinkinks Brexit is quite likely to produce a whole batch of DAVID IRVINGS when blaming the people for this crass, self-harming decision wears thin
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

Revealed this morning
Johnson failed to declare his friendship with American model turned consultant when he helped her acquire funding when he was mayor of London
Wonder if discussion on that will be prorogued until after Brexit !!
It's not what you know.... as they say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:49 AM

Boris overruled the advice of Council Officials to award his pole-dancing friend £126,000 of Londoners hard-earned taxes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:52 AM

Wonder if it was payment for dancing on his pole?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 08:17 AM

"dancing on his pole?"
There's me thinking Brexit was about keeping The Poles out
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM

Generally, as I understand it, men with Johnson's level of hubris have very tiny poles. Like boy racers really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 11:42 AM

CHEER YOURSELF UP HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM

The EU chief negotiator pours scorn on the recent attempts by the UK Governments at solutions to the problem of the Irish border issues.

Describing them at unacceptable.

So much for Johnson cautious optimism!!

Could someone please link to the article in today Guardian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:03 PM

This one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

This one sounds more likely to me to be the one referred to


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

Thanks Nigel but it was the one that DMcG linked too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:55 PM

I find it strange that the suggestion that many people didn't really understand what was involved in the choice offered at the referendum is seen as insulting those who voted for Brexit - but that the policy Labour purposes to offer the voters is far too difficult for ordinary people to understand. That's surely a hell of a sight more insulting.

What's difficult about it? Let the people decide whether they prefer a Brexit deal that has offered by the EU or for the UK to remain in the EU and keep working to improve it.
A binding referendum this time, and on a real option, not on a mere slogan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:20 PM

Though I'm viscerally opposed to referendums, I remember saying months ago, reluctantly, that I couldn't see any other way out of this mess. What's on offer from Labour is reasonable and clear, and it's been Labour policy for months. I'm disappointed that there won't be a concerted campaign to remain and I'd hope that the issue could be dealt with harmoniously. I should like to see Corbyn giving all his MPs, cabinet members included, free rein to campaign as they'd wish. He could say that right now. That would be a bold move and might just help to heal the rifts a little bit. Any instruction from on high to "stay neutral" would be divisive, and would have what few MPs who complied telling fibs about their own sentiments. There would be massive disobedience. I suppose the EU has to stay out of our party politics, but I'd bet they'd be itching to say that Corbyn's ideas for a deal, which keep us in a customs union and close to the single market and which would obviate the need for a backstop or any other of the nonsense we're being peddled about how the Tories would like to handle the border, would be a damn sight better and far more acceptable all round in the EU than anything they've heard so far. It still wouldn't be in the best interests of the country, of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:33 PM

Campaign as they wish except for no deal. That would be a mortal sin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

Anyone remember that Fox character, back in 2016, telling that huge whopper that the Brexit deal would be “The easiest deal ever”?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:44 AM

"Though I'm viscerally opposed to referendums,"
I think this is important Steve
An access to referenda has changed the face of Ireland for the better - they have done what politicians have refused to do, on, pregnancy termination and homosexuality have been most noticable; in both cases they have not only achieved what they set out to do but they have loosened the grip of the Church on Irish politics forever - not bad for a country in the grip of religious fear
I look forward to ones on the rights of women and on the church's ownership of the Irish education system
A referendum can be the nearest working people ever have to a say in their lives - if it is constructed and run and policed responsibly and not allowed to be used to replace democracy with populism, as Brexit has

I think Corbyn is boxing clever in, rather than campaigning to overturn what is deliberately passed off as a democratic exercise, he is playing it by ear
He has to keep all the different facions of the Labour party together if it is ever follow the Socialist dream again
He also has the same contradictory problem that any Socialist has in being asked to support an organisation of Capitalist States on the decline (think about how they manipulated Greek Politics)
The EU is the best on the table at the present time, but that won't remain the case forever
I'm happy to support Europe - 'as the rope supports the hanged man' - for the time being
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:06 AM

What's on offer from Labour is reasonable and clear, and it's been Labour policy for months.

You're avin a laff boy!

1)only a slim majority of current Labour voters (52%) actually understand their own Brexit policy. Is it any wonder the omnishamblic party’s now languishing in third place?..

2)Labour voted for the referendum, and to trigger Article 50. Their manifesto promised to “accept the referendum result”. And they swore repeatedly that they wouldn’t overturn the decision made three years ago, by the many, not the few. Now, Labour’s true colours are showing

3)Banning private schools.It contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights, Protocol 1, Article 2:the right of parents to have their children educated in accordance with their religious and other views, allowing groups to educate children without being impeded by the nation state.

4) As the Independant eloquently states:
“We are committed to legislating for a second referendum within six months. Before that we’re going to go back to Brussels and negotiate a completely new deal in the space of a few weeks even though the last one took years.

“Then we’re going to have a special, one day conference in which the party will decide whether to back its own deal or whether to back Remain in the second referendum.

“But whatever that conference decides, the prime minister Jeremy Corbyn probably isn’t going to take any notice of it. He, the actual prime minister, is going to sit it out entirely. But it won’t just be him. After we’ve had this special, one day conference, nobody in the government will be expected to take any notice of it. They’re going to be free to campaign for whatever they like.”


As I have frequently stated they are the hokey cokey party

This labour fiasco will simply drive supporters to either the Libdems or Brexit party in the coming election and Labour will be destroyed.
Bring it on, I say


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