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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 07:42 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM
DMcG 14 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Mar 19 - 05:50 AM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM
DMcG 14 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM
DMcG 13 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM
Iains 13 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 19 - 04:32 PM
DMcG 13 Mar 19 - 03:43 PM
DMcG 13 Mar 19 - 03:42 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Mar 19 - 02:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 19 - 01:48 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM
DMcG 13 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM
Mossback 13 Mar 19 - 11:48 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM
Iains 13 Mar 19 - 11:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 08:29 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 05:49 PM
DMcG 12 Mar 19 - 04:04 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM
DMcG 12 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM
Mrrzy 12 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 03:21 PM
DMcG 12 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 12 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Mar 19 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM
Iains 12 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 19 - 09:49 AM
Iains 12 Mar 19 - 09:47 AM
DMcG 12 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM
Iains 11 Mar 19 - 05:25 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM
DMcG 11 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM
Raggytash 11 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM
David Carter (UK) 11 Mar 19 - 06:11 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

I find it hilarious that the resident wannabe 'tough-guy' who is making scarcely-veiled threats of violence on this thread, is defecating building-blocks on another thread over the prospect of a 19-year-old girl, who is an abused, brainwashed rape-victim, being allowed to return to the UK - her country of birth - from Syria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:42 AM

Just put it up o the Irish tread but worth repeating here as Ireland is the main issue of Brexit
Michael Gove has announced that a Brexit crash-out will need to involve a re-establishment of Direct Rule from Westminster Britain's the interests of Britain and the Six Counties are to remain the same
This is tantamount to throwing way all the gains thet have been made since The Good Friday Agreement and will almost inevitably bring violent conflict that much nearer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM

Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

You know, Iains, it is posts like that which make people decide there is no value in engaging with you. I do so because it think it is valuable to know other peoples views, but there does come a point where the return on investment is too low to bother.

You say both parties campaigned for Brexit.

The Tories campaigned for a Brexit where having a customs partnership was ruled out.

Labour campaigned for a Brexit where a customs partnership was essential.

To suggest they are the same is on the level as claiming 'dead' and 'alive' are the same because they both contain an E and an A.

Add in the repeated dodging of the point I repeated in bold for your convenience and throw in some hint that violence might be acceptable and I find myself drawn to the group who don't respond at all.

As with Keith, it is your hands to decide if you want to raise things to discuss, or are only interested in scoring points in a competition where you are the sole entrant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

The extremists are those that refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the democratic vote.
This was by referendum
An overwhelming vote for article 50
A general election with both main parties having brexit as a major part of their manifesto.

Remainiacs are a bit like democrats. They just don't get it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:50 AM

Well we have had veiled threats of violence from Farage and others, and they don't impress or scare me. Our grandparents faced down Mosley's thugs, and our parents faced down Powell's, are our generation goint to be the once to cave in to threats of violence from brexit extremists?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

“Those who make peacful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”
JFK


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM

It amazes me how people are still falling this 'will of the people' bollocks. 17 million people voted to leave Europe. There are 66 Million in the UK. Less than 1/3 voted to leave. Of the remaining 2/3, 16 million voted to stay. So that leaves over a 1/3 of the 'people' who's will is entirely unknown. How can this be the will of the people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

That is a really interesting possibility, Backwoodsman. It is being suggested that the justification for bringing it back is that Cox's advice is changed because of the Vienna Convention. Now, it is true that is not in his written advice. But it was raised in the debate and his advice on the matter sought and given. So the claim the advice has changed is on very shaky ground indeed. Also that clause of Vienna Convention concerns fundamental changes in the parties concerned. A change of Prime Minister is not such a fundamental change. A change of governing party is not such a fundamental change. A complete collapse of the finances of the UK would be, but presumably those seeking to invoke it do not think that is likely. So this a fig-leaf of an excuse, not a genuine one.

Now, if Teresa May agreed to change her red lines and adopted a more consensual approach, that would be an actual change to the deal, so it could be brought back without doubt.

Some ERG members have said they would vote for the deal on condition May resigns. That takes us into, as far as I know, other uncharted constitutional waters. There is a convention that no parliament can bind its successor, so it cannot pas a law directly restricting its successors actions. It is not clear if that applies to Prime Ministers. For example, if May agreed to adopt some of Labour's ideas, and that so-amended deal was passed with those changes to the parts of the agreement that are *not legally binding*, to what extend would a PM Boris be bound to follow them? I don't think anyone knows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

A suggestion this morning that Bercow might use the ancient rule that a Motion may not be voted on more than once during a session to prevent May's agreement being debated and voted on for a third time.

Fingers crossed. And maybe then we will see the complete lunacy of BrexShit kicked out for good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM

So you think "what is at stake" entitles MPs to try to encourage the EU to thwart Parliament's will if it decides to ask for an extension?

I believe I understand what is at stake as well as you do, Iains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.

A total misunderstanding of what is at stake:
As things stand we crash out on the 29th of this month.Regardless of what Parliament may vote in the meantime, only a changer in the law can negate this. There is not sufficient time to frame the required legislation,debate it in both houses and obtain Royal Assent. That is the reality.
An extension beyond the date of the European elections means the UK quota of MEPs must be elected.(This could be quite entertaining as the seats have already been re-allocated.)
More significantly, an extension gives the remainiacs more time to plot and plan their treasonous betrayal of the democratic will of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:32 PM

I can just see the headlines in the Daily Heil.

Corbyn behind anti-semitic plot to keep us in Europe.

And the idiots will believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:43 PM

The hoo-hah. Ornate pipes not required.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:42 PM

I am pleased to see the Malthouse compromise has been rejected by even more than May's deal. Given the EU was clear about how insane we would be to vote for somwthing rej3cred so often in the negotiations, it is one bright spot in the hookah.

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:21 PM

Pretty sure it's a different NP Dave.
And I'll pass your regards on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:48 PM

That was exactly as I read it DMcG. I

Send my regards to Ian, BWM. Not sure what to send to the other :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

And I'll be meeting up with one of the Muskets- I'll give him everyone's best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

"In the faint hope of warding off Nigel"

I'm going to a gig on Friday evening, just noticed the support act is some guy called Nigel Parsons...ve-e-ery interesting!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM


Nobody wants this Brexit

Perhaps he could explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then?


17.4 etc voted for A Brexit, But did they vote for THIS Brexit, which is what the phrase you are commenting on says? No one at all knows: neither you, nor I, nor any of the leave campaigners, nor Parliament. In fact, it is highly likely that even at the time they were voting with different understandings of Brexit.

In the faint hope of warding off Nigel, I read 'Nobody wants this Brexit' in the common, ordinary, everyday sense of the phrase. That is, I am sure out of the 17.4million there will be a few who did, but the numbers are dwarfed by the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:48 AM

explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then

Easy. That was then, this is now.


Aw, shit - I responded to the fool. My bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

The antithesis to "Great minds think alike" is, of course, "Fools seldom differ".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:10 AM

Nobody wants this Brexit

Perhaps he could explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then? or perhaps he uses the same abacus as Diane Abbot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

Nobody wants this Brexit - it's time to grow up, and ditch this miscarriage of democracy


Not much respect for the tabloids but this article tells it as it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:29 PM

Oops, sorry, SPB, I misread your point about blue badges so my comment about my mum is irrelevant. However, when I looked into it a while back I thought I found that the blue badge scheme has a reciprocal agreement across the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:49 PM

Piling disgrace on disgrace, May is failing to whip her MPs tomorrow to oppose no-deal.

I use my mum's blue badge everywhere, SPB (only when she's with me, of course). I wasn't aware of the issue you mention. I think I'd better check...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:04 PM

EU needs to ... pull their fingers out and come up with a deal that...

I am afraid not: the EU does not have to come up with anything. The UK has to come up with something that is at least good enough to convince the EU it merits an extension. I agree with you the proposed deal should protect those rights, but it is up to the UK to say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM

And UK parliament must prioritise legislation that legally enforces car park attendants/local authorities to recognise blue badges issued across the EU in all UK car parks that recognise UK blue badges.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM

EU needs to forget about the self-serving Tory party politics which were responsible for the referendum, and pull their fingers out and come up with a deal that protects all the rights of UK pro-Europeans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM

So, does this latest vote mean Remain? I am unclear.

No, nor do the votes tomorrow or the day after mean remain. It is, perhaps, a step in that direction, but equally it could be a step towards the no-deal brink if Parliament fritters away the few days left on irrelevancies or agreeing things that the EU cannot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM

So, does this latest vote mean Remain? I am unclear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:21 PM

She's not bloody giving in. That's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM

In answer to May's speech saying she would be holding the votes on Wednesday and Thursday, Corbyn said he would be bringing the previously rejected Labour version of Brexit back to the house. Even if the house were to accept it, which is very doubtful, the question arises whether the EU will be prepared to enter another long period of negotiation. As I have said before, I don't find red unicorns any more believable than blue ones. There are things in the Labour proposal that will be as objectionable to the EU as the ones from the Tories.

I think the probability is we will need more than this lets-talk-about-something-else approach to stop a no deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM

Well, I see she has blown it again. Will no one rid us of this turbulent pest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM

Hopefully!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM

> people in real life who you can't have a proper conversation with because they're not listening

Like the current PM. And I think the consequences are just about to rear up and bite her on the butt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

Indeed he did. I know a few people in real life who you can't have a proper conversation with because they're not listening to you. Instead, they're thinking of the next "clever" thing to say. It's not very grown-up, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:59 AM

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

And I think, silly boy, you completely misunderstood Steve's post. Not 'arf as clever as you try to pretend you are, are you?

Stick to quoting 'Semen' Staines - that's about your level.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM

Please don't feed the animals Steve - they'll only come back for more :->
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

An observation worth repeating and further reinforcing.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

"Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming."

Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

"Backward man you are a tad behind the curve."

And then:

"Not only besandled and besotted but also oblivious"

And just now:

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

By the way, folks, if you can read this thank a teacher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

Another amusing exchange from the same Comments section:

"The backstop needs to be well oiled, greased, lathered with WD40 and shoved well and truly up ERG arses, that should shut them up for a while."

"Really? Do we have to pre-lube the thing?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM

he's not going to channel his inner Border Collie. He sees dinner."

I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:49 AM

I know there's nothing even remotely amusing about all this, but I loved this one, from a Comments section under a Guardian article:

"By the way, if anyone is under the misapprehension that Trump is going to help Britain with a favorable trade deal after Brexit, they've got another thing coming. When the wolf sees a lamb straying from the herd, he's not going to channel his inner Border Collie. He sees dinner."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:47 AM

Good news about brexit. We dodge the biometric ID cards.



http://www.statewatch.org/news/2019/feb/eu-frontex-visas-ilos-id-cards.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM

If the French suggestion works for Calais, why not for Ireland?

You mean apart from the fact a port is completely different in scale to a 499km border, that all the French system achieves is to separate the traffic into red and green channels where the red have to be checked, that building such infrastructure as the channels is expressly prohibited by the withdrawal agreement and that the police of Ireland have expressed serious security concerns about any attempt to have such infrastructure? Give me a minute and I will think of something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:25 PM

If the French suggestion works for Calais, why not for Ireland?

As any self-respecting Brexit pundit will be more than happy to remind us, smart borders featuring mythological things like remote customs declarations and automated number plate checking are simply “unicorns” which aren’t likely to be possible for hundreds, if not thousands of years. They certainly won’t be suitable for any post-Brexit border crossings…

Which is why French Customs have just unveiled a “smart border” – an “innovative technological solution” which will be implemented on 29 March 2019 “at all points of entry/exit to/from the Calais region and at border points from Channel-North Sea to maintain smooth circulation of your goods.”

From Guido of course

https://order-order.com/2019/03/11/france-unveils-technological-smart-border-solution/

and for the nonbelievers, some french unicorns below!

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a16171-the-smart-border


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

I am waiting for May to
make a gaurantee that if EU 27 denies fredom of movement to a single UK national that this will be treated as a major diplomatic incident. If not then May, and everyone who voted for her party is a racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM

Well, one of them repeatedly says "we are leaving on 29th March" when asked. That is possible but hardly certain, so I wonder what replaces that non-answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM

Stanron, all the others Brexiteers have refused repeatedly to respond to any of my questions regarding if the UK will be as well off, if not better off, post Brexit.

Almost every report from every source to date has been negative. The Banking, Insurance and Finance Industries are setting up offices overseas, the car industry is in disarray, multiply other industries are moving at least some of their operations into the Eurozone and even arch Brexiteer Rees Mogg has opened on office of his Somerset Investment company in Dublin.

So tell me how is the UK going to benefit from Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:11 AM

I think that there are some leavers who are not stupid or dangerously stupid, but just dangerous, because they see brexit as an opportunity for personal financial gain at the expense of the rest of us. Such as hedge fund managers shorting the British economy.


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