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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 15 Jul 19 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 19 - 10:05 AM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 09:55 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM
DMcG 14 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM
Iains 14 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 14 Jul 19 - 03:55 AM
DMcG 13 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM
Nigel Parsons 13 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM
DMcG 13 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM
David Carter (UK) 12 Jul 19 - 08:04 AM
DMcG 12 Jul 19 - 06:56 AM
Iains 12 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM
DMcG 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM
DMcG 11 Jul 19 - 05:55 PM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 05:09 PM
DMcG 11 Jul 19 - 04:59 PM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 04:43 PM
DMcG 11 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM
Nigel Parsons 11 Jul 19 - 04:26 PM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 04:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM
DMcG 11 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM
Nigel Parsons 11 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 09:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Jul 19 - 06:22 AM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 02:41 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Jul 19 - 04:28 PM
DMcG 10 Jul 19 - 04:03 PM
Stanron 10 Jul 19 - 03:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM
Raggytash 10 Jul 19 - 02:49 PM
Iains 10 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM
David Carter (UK) 10 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM
DMcG 10 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:49 AM

The EU may have the shiny clockwork car but it appears the UK may have the only key to wind it up. I cannot put it any more simply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:05 AM

"the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out."
Britain chose to leave - it was their decision to "freeze themselves out"
Having your cake and eating it or what !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 09:55 AM

The EU’s Galileo navigation system, set up as a competitor to American GPS and much-trumpeted by Remainers, has now been broken since Friday. Users were sent an advisory notice instructing them to avoid the service. Given that many key parts of the system involve the UK, the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM

Should have been “...but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the fouls Widdecombe hag specifically, from...”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

A superbly-written piece about politics in general, but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the foul Widdecombe hag, from I See You


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM

Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice

When Sir Simon McDonald responded to the resignation letter he said
I understand your wish to relieve the pressure on your family

What do you think that meant, in a land of widespread gun ownership? It could mean his family being subjected to loud and vocal mobs harassing them. Or it could mean 'offed with extreme prejudice'.

Not a phrase to use lightly, I feel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM

Seems that the sewer press are getting their bought and paid for lackeys in Parliament to lean on the Met to go soft on the leakers and publishers of the ambassador's accurate and confidential communications. Such as paid Telegraph columnist Boris Johnson, occasional Times columnist and spouse of a Mail hack Michael Gove, and Murdoch lackey Jeremy C Hunt. The weasels are closing ranks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM

Doesn't seem that the ambassador said anything that wasn't in the Muller report anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

Judging by today's papers there are yet more delights to be had from the ambassador's leaked "postbag". For example: Support for the dodgy dossier on trump/russian collusion.
Seems we went to war on bliar blairs dodgy dossier.
What was the real intent of the trump/russian dossier? Destabilise his presidency and aid a deep state coup?
Jus' like:
the notorious 1953 coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq and nothing to do with the AIOC/BP nationalisation.
Have to admit though, that one went better than the suez fiasco a few years later!

When caught interfering in another country's affairs, simply getting fired is escaping lightly. Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice. To try to argue Trump interfered in sovereign affairs of the UK is risible. BOOT is on t'other foot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 03:55 AM

According to today's Sunday Times:


The chairman of Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party was last night embroiled in the "Trump files" leak scandal as it emerged that he is in a relationship with the writer whose story brought down Britain’s ambassador to Washington.
Richard Tice, a Brexit Party MEP, is dating Isabel Oakeshott, who last week published leaked diplomatic cables in which Sir Kim Darroch branded Donald Trump "clumsy and inept", forcing Darroch’s resignation when the president announced he would not work with him.

Security sources said a suspect had been identified for the leaks amid "panic" in Whitehall that a "pro-Brexit Kim Philby" figure has been trying to undermine officials not deemed supportive enough of leaving the EU. Scotland Yard and the intelligence services believe a civil servant with access…


(Because it is behind a paid firewall, the article is truncated at that point. The Guardian's comments on the Times article say:


According to the Sunday Times, which cited unnamed government sources, a suspect had been identified and suggestions that it could be the result of a computer hack by a foreign state had been ruled out.
"They think they know who did the leaking," an unnamed government source told the paper. "It's now a case of building a case that will stand up in court. It was someone with access to historical files. They went in and grabbed a range of material. It was quite crude."


I am reminded that on Newsnight a few days ago, Richard Tice was against a police investigation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on.

No you didn't. Trump sounds off, Boris - who now admits he didn't do enough to defend Kim - is more concerned with pleasing Trump than supporting his staff, and Kim sees that his [probable] boss will not support him. That was my argument. It would be a naïve interpretation to think that just because the lack of support from Boris was the immediate cause of the hostile environment that Trump played no part in its construction.


In any case, I am not interested in games of 'who wins the argument'. I make my points, which people can agree with or not. Its up to them. That is one reason why, as I say often, I try to make a point, explain it once (mainly to clarify what it seems I was unclear about first time) and then try to leave it. That allows you, or Iains, or anyone else to have the last word. I don't care either way, I am not keeping score.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter
Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.


Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on.

What more can be expected?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM

Diplomats are supposed to be subservient to world leaders otherwise it would be their fingers on the button
Q - What's the difference between a patriot and a Qusiling
A - ****** if I know, given the sample here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM

I think, Jim, the response will be that Trump does not claim to be a diplomat. Of course, then they have all the diplomatic reports released by the WikiLeaks business, plus all the commentary from current diplomats that there was not exceptional whatsoever in the language and style of writing of Darroch. Which will be deemed irrelevant, I expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM

"He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered."
LIKE THIS ?
Arsekissers of the world unite !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM

One of the saddest things about BrexShit is the way it has emboldened and given a voice to racists and xenophobes who think it's OK to do things like this.

No doubt written by a Yaxley-Lennon Fan-Boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:04 AM

The ambassador's communications were confidential. Trump has no business even knowing about them. The person who leaked them deserves the most severe punishment. If he had said something uncomplimentary to Trump's face, even something as blinding obvious to everyone as the material he did send in confidence, then I agree that he would have had to go. But he didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:56 AM

That's how you see it. To me, it looks more like the Brexit supporters are unwilling to reflect on how Trump throwing his weight around and our apparent willingness to capitulate shows the vacuousness of the sovereignty claims they have been making.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM

The MPs are all wriggling trying to shift blame.Sovereignty does not enter the equation. The ambassador's goose was cooked. He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered. His was not. Once it hit the public domain his position was untenable. That is what caused his termination regardless of whether he jumped or was pushed.
Diplomacy is about being diplomatic, the ambassador was not. Had he described you in such terms would you want anything to do with him?
Sovereignty has absolutely nothing to do with the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter

Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.


Nice quote about 'constructive dismissal', but it doesn't appear to support your argument. It describes such dismissal as caused by the employer, and you were saying Trump caused the registration/dismissal. Trump is/was not the employer of Kim Darroch, so this definition doesn't fit the situation.


As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter. The UK can still appoint an ambassador, but the country he/she is sent to can still choose whether to interact with that ambassador. The chosen person then needs to be mutually acceptable to the two countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:55 PM

And. I see you cannot mention sovereignty either, Iains. Here is an extract from the Hansard debate. The views expressed here are quite typical of the whole debate:

===

Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
May I first welcome the comments of my friend the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my right hon. Friend the Minister? This has been a very difficult moment for British diplomacy, and it is worth thinking about why that is so.

This is a direct challenge to a sovereign nation and its ability to nominate its own representative. If sovereignty does not allow a nation to choose its own representative, frankly, what is it but servitude? That is why Britain must stand up for our envoys. If we do not think that they are up to it, we must replace them, but we must not be bullied into seeing them kicked out or silenced. May I therefore ask my right hon. Friend to assure me, and everyone in this House, that Her Majesty’s Government will always stand up for those we send abroad, military or civilian, and back them as necessary, in the interests of the British people and no one else.

====

Most people agree that the leaker should be found and suffer any relevant penalty. Richard Tice, the Brexit Party MEP, speaking on Newsnight last night, did not think the police should be involved in investigating this, and was very much of the "move on and let's appoint a businessman instead of a civil servant" mind set, but almost everyone else seems to take the leak more seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM

I wonder what a knobwhappet is? Even the internet does not offer an explanation. Obviously run out of counter arguments so resorts to the fallback position of the left, so I presume it is some kind of insult.
What a sad little fellow.Most people try to find constructive things to do in their retirement.

I find it no surprise the ambassador resigned. His cover was blown and his usefulness thereby finished. Who in their right mind thinks he could just carry on as normal after trashing the head of state of the country he was assigned to? They must be living in a fantasy world.
    The real question to be answered is who leaked the document and was it transmitted by electronic means or by diplomatic bag. Opinions of that sort of sensitivity should have had the highest levels of security.
It is expected that ambassador's opinions are candid, that is an essential part of their remit. But, by the same token such findings should not be on public view to accompany the bacon and eggs of a sunday breakfast. Those guilty of the leak must be identified and severely punished. Secrecy is an essential part of diplomacy and it is essential that it is maintained, regardless of what his opinions were. They were never meant for public consumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:09 PM

Who's the fool indeed. I'm not the one going to great lengths to prove a completely nonsensical argument. Knobwhappet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:59 PM

Here is a link to the Hansard record of the Parliamentary debate on Kim Dorroch

Most MPs of all parties seem to agree that there is more to it than 'he chose to resign'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:43 PM

Proof of the pudding!
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/downloads/download/755/referendum_results
Numerically by Ward, Constituency and political party

Sadly not all councils were as "thorough".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:26 PM

Since I said --
I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

--- Nigel, Stanron and Iains have all posted on other topics. I assume I was right in thinking they might not want to discuss what this shows and suggests about our sovereignty when dealing the the US.


I didn't comment because it was a false premise. Trump didn't force Darroch to resign. That was his own decision.
However, the fact that Trump was no longer willing to deal with him after his comments were made known makes it unsurprising that Darroch chose to resign.
If any one person (apart from Darroch) was responsible for causing the resignation, I would suggest it was whoever decided to leak the earlier comments, or the newspaper which decided that they were worth publishing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:15 PM

Show us how to post a screen dump on Mudcat. PIllock.

1) Take screenshot
2) paste into paint and save as jpeg or any other common format
3) use any suitable ocr freeware to convert the text saved in the paint         file
4) Copy final product into mudcat text box

eg from my laptop

Battery
Overview
100%
See which apps are affecting your battery life


Simples! as Martin said to his man "who is the fool now!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for introducing a bit of sanity cousin McG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM

Since I said --
I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

--- Nigel, Stanron and Iains have all posted on other topics. I assume I was right in thinking they might not want to discuss what this shows and suggests about our sovereignty when dealing the the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM

Show us how to post a screen dump on Mudcat. PIllock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM

How about s screen dump. Sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

BTW. Just noticed my tablet power is at 65% but I cannot offer any proof so I guess I could be imagining it.

Sheeesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM

I don't claim 65%. A YouGov survey does.

Nigel. Fair argument. Unlikely as it seems, there is a slim possibility that some were less than 50%. As there is no proof either way I think we are down to opinions. So, who do I believe? One that is more likely to be correct, given by someone who is not prone to making things up. Or that of a nitpicking pedant with no proof then other way?

Hmmmm. Tough one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

Nigel. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. Discount Scotland and NI because they all wanted to remain. To have more Labour voters for leave in any English or Welsh constituency it means that in others the remain vote amongst Labour voters must have been massively over 65%. By no statistical or linguistic trick can that be true.
No statistical or linguistic trickery required.
To put it very simply (as that seems to be necessary), if the average Labour vote to remain was 65% (and that is just the result of a poll, not a verified figure) then 65% is an average when considering constituencies. To see one constituency drop below 50% would not seem unlikely. Nor would it be unlikely (in view of the total number of constituencies available) for several constituencies to have less than 50% of their Labour supporters voting remain.
Whether the extremes which make up that 65% average are as broad as I suggest they may be, there is nothing to confirm Steve Shaw's contention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM

Very nice Iains, but it does not tell us which members of the public voted to remain or to stay.

Well let us make an assumption that those that voted for a Labour MP in the 2015 election also maintained their majority vote one year later in the referendum.
I take as an example Birmingham Northfields These figures are actual.

Labour         Richard Burden         17,673         41% in 2015 election
Labour         Richard Burden         23,596         53.2% in 2017 election         Increase 11.6 %
June 2016 Referendum result by wards of Northfields constituency:

       WARD            Renain Leave   Total   Remain Leave

        Kings Norton        4,275        6,643        10,918        
       Longbridge        4,269        8,157        12,426        
        Northfield        5,005        8,151        13,156                
        Weoley         4,785        6,695        11,480        7        18,334   27,256

        59$ voted leave                        
       53% voted labour
That succinctly demonstrate a labour stronghold that voted leave


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

But overall Leave had 17,410,742 votes which equates to 51.89% of those that voted. What colour shirt or dress they wore on the day is but a distraction, similarly with what way party members voted. It is of no significance that you claim 65% of labour voted to remain
(It is only a polled figure anyway) Remain still lost so the argument is of no significance, as carefully explained on the other thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 09:20 AM

Nigel. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. Discount Scotland and NI because they all wanted to remain. To have more Labour voters for leave in any English or Welsh constituency it means that in others the remain vote amongst Labour voters must have been massively over 65%. By no statistical or linguistic trick can that be true. You are clutching at straws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 06:22 AM

There is no way in which: Just look at the oft quoted Survey on how the country voted. In case you have not got the sense to find it yourselves, here it is again. in case you cannot be arsed to even follow that, the key point is that 65% of Labour voters chose remain. Steve has it right. I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.
can be taken as confirmation of Steve's contention that: There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain.
The fact that the YouGov survey says that 65% of the national Labour vote was for remain does not mean that this was the case in every single constituency.
Maybe a Ladybird book is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM

Raggtash The figures are very clear, In Birmingham the Brexit vote was broken down into wards and constituencies enabling the breakdown to be studied very thoroughly. Not all councils followed suit so statistical methods had to be employed leading to slight inaccuracies as highlighted in my previous link
It should be obvious to anyone the votes are spread among constituencies.
The only time a gross figure is of any relevance is in a referendum where leave won! In the case of constituencies it is the majority vote within the constituency dictates outcomes as you very well know.
If it makes you feel better to argue what the different figures mean fair enough, but constituency majorities determine outcomes- nothing else. Distorting the outcomes by including those that did not vote may plump up your figures but we can all see the absurdity of such meaningless pastimes


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:41 AM

It makes sense, Stanron. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. If the party is not fulfilling their wishes it is little wonder that they will lose some members. Hopefully they have now addressed that issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:28 PM

”I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.”

Put it on the side of a big red bus Dave, they’ll believe it then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:03 PM

Well, Stanron, I begin by noticing it is from September 2016.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:57 PM

OK I see what you are saying. What do you think of this?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/09/23/labours-losing-leave-voters

from the same source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM

Just look at the oft quoted Survey on how the country voted. In case you have not got the sense to find it yourselves, here it is again. in case you cannot be arsed to even follow that, the key point is that 65% of Labour voters chose remain. Steve has it right. I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:49 PM

Very nice Iains, but it does not tell us which members of the public voted to remain or to stay.

Furthermore it does not tell us which of those people who may or may not be labour voters voted to stay or remain.

May I suggest that you go back to Steve's original post and try (I know it may be difficult for you) to comprehend exactly what he was saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.
As the pantomime dame is wont t osay: OH YES THERE IS !

As I frequently say: I believe in posting facts.
One example Birmingham

Birmingham is divided into ten parliamentary constituencies, each of which elects one Member of Parliament (MP) to the House of Commons.
EU Referendum Results 2016 by Constituency and Ward
    Edgbaston - Preet Gill (Labour)Voted leave
    Erdington - Jack Dromey (Labour)leave
    Hall Green - Mr Roger Godsiff (Labour)
    Hodge Hill - Liam Byrne (Labour)Leave
    Ladywood - Shabana Mahmood (Labour)
    Northfield - Richard Burden (Labour)leave
    Perry Barr - Mr Khalid Mahmood (Labour)leave
    Selly Oak - Steve McCabe (Labour)
    Sutton Coldfield - Mr Andrew Mitchell (Conservative)
    Yardley - Jess Phillips (Labour)

Time for a little reminder:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:31 AM
I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. It’s what we do to politicians, Nigel. I find it devilishly amusing and I don’t expect anyone to think I’m telling the literal truth

Now if we wish to discuss insults;

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:34 PM

Come on, mods. You did it with Teribus and you did it with akenaton. This bloke is worse. Make the place sweeter and get rid of him. Surely you've seen enough. And Jim, no responding this time, right?

Noy even your gig and you presume to dictate! You really are insufferable at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Stanron, that link gives no information about which way Labour voters voted in the referendum. That is simply not addressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM

… And, of course, how it demonstrates we will be able to assert our sovereignty when it comes to any US trade deal.


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