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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Raggytash 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM
Raggytash 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM
Iains 27 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM
Raggytash 27 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM
Stanron 27 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM
Iains 27 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 19 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 19 - 04:13 PM
Iains 28 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 04:05 AM
Iains 28 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 04:43 AM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 06:01 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 08:12 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 08:17 AM
Stanron 28 Jul 19 - 08:30 AM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 08:31 AM
Bonzo3legs 28 Jul 19 - 08:47 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 08:57 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 09:05 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 19 - 09:19 AM
Stanron 28 Jul 19 - 09:44 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM
Jack Campin 28 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM
Mossback 28 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 19 - 12:33 PM
Nigel Parsons 28 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM
Iains 28 Jul 19 - 01:47 PM
DMcG 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 19 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 19 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM
Iains 29 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 19 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jul 19 - 08:48 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that. I would like positive grounds for me to change my position.

Unicorns, fairies and elves just don't cut it in my world, so provide some positives or better still join the campaign to remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that. I would like positive grounds for me to change my position.

Unicorns, fairies and elves just don't cut it in my world, so provide some positives or better still join the campaign to remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

leftist twaddle- encourage
Facts = Delete

The leftard wonderland.
ain't life wonderful?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

More intellectual gems from our resident fundamentalist
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

I was a tad surprised yesterday Iains when you stated that you back up your statements with links.

The only links I can recall are to the Guido website and he, in particular, deals entirely in "soundbites" and he seldom, if ever, provides links.

I have asked you on numerous occasions to use quotation marks when you use someone else's words, you never do so.

I have also requested on numerous occasions that you provide links to your "quotes" I cannot recall ONE occasion when you have done so.

May I suggest that you put your own house in order. You may find that is not only more acceptable to other posters but also to the Moderators.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

Raggytash wrote: So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that.
Well let's see, I'm going to give you A+ for creative imagination and Z- for accuracy.

I would not be comfortable with your first sentence either, but I think on different grounds. The construction is awful and the content is a mixture of pure imagination and poor comprehension.

Never mind, it may never happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

pink unicorns, candyfloss, rainbows...

Here is a gem from Guido:


https://order-order.com/2019/07/27/commentariat-versus-reality/

A perfect summary of fact versus waycism accusations.

Despite all the protestation of the left:
Trump is the President
Bojo is the PM
and Bob Wills is still the King


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:04 PM

The king is Elvis and you are so obviously someone's puppet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:13 PM

Pinocchio maybe, and I'd wager that, in view of your dishonesty, your nose is at least a foot long (do you use it as a rule?) Howzat, IP flitter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM

Howzat, IP flitter?
You made the allegation rather more forcefully in a recent post saying you had proof I was using multiple IP addresses.
The only proof of your unfounded allegation that I am using multiple IP addresses would be by you having access to the mudcat servers. That is not something you can do, only moderators have this facility.

Now on a totally separate matter I did have communication with Mudcat recently about a post allegedly from my IP address that I am confident I did not author. Those communications independently verified a consistent IP address that I was using.(This covered a period of several months where an update of firefox deleted my cookies each time I shut my computer down,thus there were times where inadvertently I would be posting as a guest above the line, unless I reset my cookie)

So this leads me to conclude you are but a troublemaking liar, and by your lies you are trying to intimate that at least one moderator is colluding with you by supplying data about a mudcat member that you could not independently access

So Shaw, you have a little explaining to do, to all of us

I trust the moderators will suitably chastise you for impugning their integrity and not simply delete this email.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM

I confess to being a serial IP flipper. Every time I use my mobile phone on wifi on a different cafe, hotel or otherwise out and about it will have a different IP address. Because that is how the Internet works.

Now can we talk about Brexit? Gove is saying the government is now assuming a no deal which is a shade different to one chance on a million a few days ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM

It seems to me this thread has been treading water for some time
The two genuine Brexiteers here seem to not want to comment on what is happening to Britain for fear of incriminating themselves, and this clown offers nothing (as is his wont) and is intent in sabotaging any attempt to seriously discuss what is, in fact a serious situation.
Anybody who has insulted and maligned the decisions and integrity of the Mods, accusing them of censorship and bias, as often as he has recently, and then makes the statement he just has, should not be allowed to take up space here
WE are behaving like a bunch of indulgent adults looking on fondly while a disturbed child wrecks the place
I suggest we either move on and discuss the subject or stop taking up space on this forum
Tolerating this shit is allowing us to sink to this guys level
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:05 AM

"Now can we talk about Brexit? "
Amen to that
Sorry Mac - cross posted
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM

FYI I use the same phone tethered to my laptop in the same place for the last three years.
Stop making malicious allegations and we can get back to brexit
Simples!

A shame you do not get on your collective high horse when the cabal is hijacking threads and babbling on about wine, weeds and wandering.
Oh but I forgot lefties are incapable of offending ! What a shower.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:42 AM

Ok, on Brexit. Javid has said today (or maybe yesterday)

Under my leadership, the Treasury will have new priorities and will play its full role in helping to deliver Brexit,” he said. “In my first day in office as chancellor, I tasked officials to urgently identify where more money needs to be invested to get Britain fully ready to leave on October 31 – deal or no deal.”

He added that he planned to fund 500 new Border Force officers and look at new infrastructure around the country’s ports to minimise congestion and ensure goods could flow.


How many poor managers have I heard say things like this throughout my lifetime, I wonder. So focused on money they can't think of anything else. So he makes money available. Now you have to write and negotiate contracts. The contractors may have to recruit. The infrastructure required has to be assessed and designed. Any goods required have to be ordered, manufactured and then assembled. All this takes time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:43 AM

"Oh but I forgot lefties are incapable of offending ! What a shower."
Point proven, I think, for which, mant thanks
Let' move on
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:11 AM

to get Britain fully ready to leave on October 31 – deal or no deal.

Perhaps we need our Brexiteers to flesh that out a bit. I accept Britain could leave on Oct 31, whatever state we are in. I accept the politicians can be fully committed to do so.

Do you think that is all that is needed to say 'Britain is fully ready to leave on October 31"? That there is no distinction to be made between willingness and readiness?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM

The headlines in this morning's Sunday Times are reminiscent of the daily reports during WW2 - terms like "war footing", "war cabinet" and Brexit has to be delivered "at any price" (a term borrowed from Malcolm X)
A strange photo shows Boris (wrote "boorish" by mistake") in conversation with a colleague, with a somewhat scruffily dressed feller leaning on the wall, in a logoed tee shirt and slacks who is identified as "having been especially appointed to deliver Brexit - maybe he is a Parcelforce' employee !!
This is obviously a Prime Minister with his hand firmly on the pulse of the nation's needs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:47 AM

I have not seen the photo, but by the sound of it that is Dominic Cummings, credited with creating the "take back control' slogan and the bus quote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 06:01 AM

"Dominic Cummings,"
That's the feller
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM

From the superb musician and activist, Joe Solo, on FB today. His FB post permits ‘Sharing’ so I’m reproducing his piece here in good faith because I believe that, no matter which side of the Brexit argument anyone stands on, he raises a point which should be very important to everyone who believes in democracy...

”So this morning it's not police or trains, but back to Brexit.

Gove writes in the Sunday Times that the new government is now assuming a No Deal scenario and is working 24/7 to that end.

And in order to overcome the arithmetic against that in the House, they are prepared to suspend parliament.

Many on the Leave side will applaud that.

There will be weary Remain voters too who just want the damn thing done so we can all move on, who will grudgingly admit it seems a satisfactory means to an end as a one off solution to a one off problem.

Yet quite aside from the glaring irony of suspending UK democracy in order to facilitate the outcome of a democratic vote, once a government has suspended democracy for one reason, what is to stop them doing it for the next, and the next?

In a country divided, with parliament in stasis, with no clear numerical majority for seemingly anything at all, wouldn't it seem like a natural solution in the 'national interest' in such a time of crisis, when a 'dynamic response' is required to a 'rapidly changing situation'?

I'm using those phrases because so would they. Whether you believe a No Deal Brexit is the best outcome, or whether you believe it would be catastrophic, I don't care. We've read it all before. What I'm trying to say is that whatever you believe, the world post 31st October will throw up challenges unprecedented in our history, and a government as right wing as this one will seek to take advantage of the ensuing confusion to exploit that for their own ends. So if the resulting changes are not properly scrutinized by due process in parliament, because democracy is repeatedly suspended in order to 'get things done', what will we have become?

Because alarmist as that may sound, this is how it happens.

Proroguing parliament is a blueprint for dictatorship.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:12 AM

And, once that precident is set, it is set for all governments. It is not just the Brexit issue, it is everything, left wing or right wing, an alt right government or an alt left one. Anyone who cares about democracy should be very concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:15 AM

Indeed they should, DMcG. We live in dangerous times, very dangerous times indeed...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:17 AM

The above ia confirmed by today's News
The Government is now set on a course for a no deal Brexit, whatever the consequences
I have little doubt that, when the inevitable happens and Britain's future goes into a tail-spin
the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of the British People "nuffin' to do with us guv - we were only doing what you asked us to do"
This has been a massive con trick by bigots and pseudo patriots from start to finish
It's about time we all realised that and stop blaming those who were conned
Some of us here (me included) were naive enough to believe this could never happen
Coincidentally, we spoke to Peggy Seeger last week who told us that many of the American people and Trump
We dropped our guard and the rats crawled in
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:30 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: And in order to overcome the arithmetic against that in the House, they are prepared to suspend parliament.
Consider the argument that Parliament would be suspending democracy by preventing the implementation of current legislation. Preventing Parliament from doing this would be implementing democracy.

Consider the argument that you are looking at it the wrong way round.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:31 AM

the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of the British People "nuffin' to do with us guv - we were only doing what you asked us to do"

I doubt it. It will be blamed on the EU, and those who asked them not to do it. I would like to see some of our Brexiteers saying "We take all responsibility for this, good or ill. We won't blame the EU, or May, or the judges or anyone else. We decided and insisted on this, knowing all the predictions and the EU's likely stance. We are willing to accept anything arising. It is no-one else's fault."

I don't expect to hear it, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:47 AM

Congratulations to Gavin Barwell on his peerage, very well deserved, a very hard working man indeed. Lives 5 minutes drive away!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:57 AM

Face like a slapped arse. Obnoxious little cunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:05 AM

”Backwoodsman wrote: And in order to overcome the arithmetic against that in the House, they are prepared to suspend parliament.”

Wrong. Backwoodsman did not write that at all. It was quoted from a piece elsewhere, written by someone else.

Attention to detail - always important.

”Consider the argument that Parliament would be suspending democracy by preventing the implementation of current legislation. Preventing Parliament from doing this would be implementing democracy.

Consider the argument that you are looking at it the wrong way round.”


Wrong again. The basis of our Parliamentary Democracy is that Parliament, and Parliament alone, can pass legislation, and Parliament, and Parliament alone, has the power to revoke legislation. Look it up.

I repeat - attention to detail, always important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM

It’s called ‘The Sovereignty of Parliament’ - something you Brexit-Bumpkins claim to be fighting to ‘reclaim’.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:19 AM

Your interpretation of democracy is a long way from mine, Stanron. Several things:

This country enjoys Parliamentary democracy. The referendum should never have been called.

The referendum was not binding on the government, and no amount of a Tory prime minister's parroting that he would take it as binding/an instruction/a mandate from the people could make it binding. The binding claim was unconstitutional.

We were lied to by Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson both about the amount of our contribution to the EU and about what it could be used for if we refused to pay it.

We were lied to by Nigel Farage, who provided a racist message about uncontrolled immigration by posing in front of a poster showing a queue of non-white refugees who had nothing to do with immigration into this country.

We were fearmongered to death by the remain campaign about a brexit future, the cheerleader of which was your shrill and greasy little man, Mr We're-all-in-it-together- austerity-man, the git who now edits the Evening Standard.

We were lied to about how easy it would be to forge dozens of new trade deals.

The Irish border issue was de-emphasised during tbe campaign in a most dishonest way, and look where we are now with that.

38% of the electorate voted leave. The leave vote was skewed by the votes of older people who will be unaffected by brexit.

We have another vote to choose a government every few years, a move that is regarded as the bastion of democracy. Every few years we are afforded that rethink. Yet you would deny the people of this country a rethink about what is arguably a far more critical and certainly a far more permanent sea change in this country's future. I'll tell you what, Stanron. You're no democrat. If you thought you'd definitely win a second vote you'd be all for it. You'd jump at it. But you're afraid that you wouldn't win, so you oppose it. For no other reason. You wouldn't recognise democracy if it jumped up and bit you on the family jewels. Get honest, why don't you.

And I don't even bloody want another referendum. I don't want any bloody referendums.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:44 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Your interpretation of democracy is a long way from mine
At last! Something we can agree with.

Steve Shaw wrote: This country enjoys Parliamentary democracy. The referendum should never have been called.
Do you realise that your sentence contradicts itself? The same for the next sentence.

Steve Shaw wrote: We were lied to by Nigel Farage, who provided a racist message about uncontrolled immigration by posing in front of a poster showing a queue of non-white refugees who had nothing to do with immigration into this country.
There were no more lies from leavers than there were from remainers.

Steve Shaw wrote: We were fearmongered to death by the remain campaign about a brexit future, the cheerleader of which was your shrill and greasy little man, Mr We're-all-in-it-together- austerity-man, the git who now edits the Evening Standard.
What's that all about?

Steve Shaw wrote: We were lied to about how easy it would be to forge dozens of new trade deals.
Difficult to prove or disprove as we are still part of the EU we are not yet able to complete any deals.

Steve Shaw wrote: The Irish border issue was de-emphasised during tbe campaign in a most dishonest way, and look where we are now with that.
The Irish border is a complete red herring. We are currently 100% compliant with all European law. On the day we leave we will be 100% compliant with all European law. There will be no need for border control until we change our laws and taxes and duties.

Steve Shaw wrote: 38% of the electorate voted leave. The leave vote was skewed by the votes of older people who will be unaffected by brexit.
How to lie with ststistics by a sore loser.

Steve Shaw wrote: We have another vote to choose a government every few years, a move that is regarded as the bastion of democracy. Every few years we are afforded that rethink. Yet you would deny the people of this country a rethink about what is arguably a far more critical and certainly a far more permanent sea change in this country's future. I'll tell you what, Stanron. You're no democrat. If you thought you'd definitely win a second vote you'd be all for it. You'd jump at it. But you're afraid that you wouldn't win, so you oppose it. For no other reason. You wouldn't recognise democracy if it jumped up and bit you on the family jewels. Get honest, why don't you.
Rubbish.

Steve Shaw wrote: And I don't even bloody want another referendum. I don't want any bloody referendums.
I am happy to not have another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM

"Do you realise that your sentence contradicts itself?"
I have little doubt that Steve meant it should not have been called in the manner it was
t has more or less been admitted that there was no plan for leaving when the proposal to do so was put forward - even most of the Tory press condemned this as utter stupidity
This left the voters to rely on things like THIS AND LITTLE ELSE
Turning one section of the population against another is as undemocratic as it gets and it verges on illegality.

As the poster shows a line of people somewhere in Eastern Europe, it is a blatant lie - I cannot remember a remainer argument which any where near approaches that level of hate-filled dishonesty
One of the first effects of this was a spike in racist incidents which took them to the highest level ever - they continue
Feel free to produce an example
The nonsensical claims about the damage that was being done and will be done continues
Britain is now facing loss of industries and trade which would not have occurred had Britain decided to remain

I don't agree with Steve's view of referenda - they have transformed Ireland and have brought about rights that would never have been given otherwise
I certainly don't agree with the dishonestly dangerous way this one has been carried out, but knowing what we know now I believe the people have a right to revisit the mess and have a say in what should happen
Even if there is a General Election and a decent party wins, whoever is elected is going to have to mop up this appalling mess and we know your lot are only capable of standing on the sidelines jeering
You have sunk Britain - god save us from Patriots
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

”You have sunk Britain - god save us from Patriots”

Especially Gammon ‘patriots’ who have no understanding whatsoever of the meaning of ‘democracy’ within the political system of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, nor of the meaning of ‘Sovereignty of Parliament’ which they continue to pretend they seek to ‘reclaim’ (despite never having given it up).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM

On FB a few days ago from the Scottish singer Alan Hunter:

Thankyou Brexiteers for enabling and encouraging racist scum.
Tonight, at the bus stop, a brown-skinned bloke asked me for a light.
I obliged, then his bus came.
Immediately after this, I was punched in the face and told that I was a “traitor to Britain”.
This bloke had a Yorkshire accent.
I feel sick.


That happened in central Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

In the "enabling and encouraging racist scum" sweepstakes, would it be the Brexiteers or the Trumpist Cult that would come out on top?

Or are they pretty much the same thing?

Just askin'---


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Jack, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been told by Brexiteers - mostly on Internet forums and social media, but also face-to-face - that I’m a ‘Trailor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason’.

You can't reason with that kind of ignorant stupidity.

Sorry to hear about Alan's experience, hope he makes a quick and full recovery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM

Well, Jim, in a referendum you may be asking a mass of people, most of whom are ignorant of the complexities of an issue that has been sold to them as a simple yes/no, to make crucial decisions affecting generations to come far more than it affects them. Qualifications not required. If you want to know how ignorant, just read the posts of any brexit supporter here. Quite simply, there is no way that they can have properly assessed, or even tried to assess, the pro and cons of what they're being asked to decide on. This was a Tory referendum called by a lily-livered Tory who was running scared of Farage, one of the biggest racist scumbags in the country. The vast majority of Tories voted leave, and a survey showed that 48% of Tory voters consider themselves to be racists. A Tory referendum with a campaign that pandered to the xenophobic sentiments of Tory voters and disaffected (by years of Tory austerity) working class people. That's why we're leaving, and that's why I don't bloody believe in referendums. A referendum is a manipulator of ordinary people which puts them at the mercy of raving zealots on either side of the argument. We choose politicians to gen up on issues and we pay them to know what they're doing. If we don't like what they do we boot them out. We never need to sidestep parliamentary democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:33 PM

Same thing, Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM

Well, Jim, in a referendum you may be asking a mass of people, most of whom are ignorant of the complexities of an issue that has been sold to them as a simple yes/no, to make crucial decisions affecting generations to come far more than it affects them. Qualifications not required. If you want to know how ignorant, just read the posts of any brexit supporter here. Quite simply, there is no way that they can have properly assessed, or even tried to assess, the pro and cons of what they're being asked to decide on. This was a Tory referendum called by a lily-livered Tory who was running scared of Farage, one of the biggest racist scumbags in the country. The vast majority of Tories voted leave, and a survey showed that 48% of Tory voters consider themselves to be racists. A Tory referendum with a campaign that pandered to the xenophobic sentiments of Tory voters and disaffected (by years of Tory austerity) working class people. That's why we're leaving, and that's why I don't bloody believe in referendums. A referendum is a manipulator of ordinary people which puts them at the mercy of raving zealots on either side of the argument. We choose politicians to gen up on issues and we pay them to know what they're doing. If we don't like what they do we boot them out. We never need to sidestep parliamentary democracy.
What this totally ignores is the fact that following the (non-binding) referendum the matter was put to Parliament, where the question of whether to issue article 50 was supported by a large majority, from both sides of The House.
I know you will say that to do otherwise would have been political suicide, but that means that you think that 'remain' MPs who voted to issue Article 50 are as self-serving as any others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM

It is highly patronising to suggest that people have to have decisions taken for them because are incapable of understanding it - somebody capable of making the wortld go around, as working people do on a daily basis are capable of understanding anything, given the right information
The only message that was fed to the people - certainly the one that won minority who voted it through was "vote for Brexit and we'll get rid of the immigrants for you" - Farage's claim was as crude as that.
The referendum was not democratic in any way - it was the opposite - populist - based o the lie that controlling immigration would solve everything   
The Brexiteers could hardly promise that a nooo longer existing industry would put us back on our own feet" and thee have been no plans put forward to rebuild an industrial base
The benefits of immigration have been pleaded for for severl years ago - underlined by the announcement last week by the Scientific Community that it will be in crisis after a hard Brexit as badly needed scientists will no longer be able to enter Britain

We can't kick Brexit out as your lot have refused to allow Britons to vote on it now the consequences have become obvious - and largely admitted

Thank you for your good wishes, by the way - mine to you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:47 PM


In the "enabling and encouraging racist scum" sweepstakes, would it be the Brexiteers or the Trumpist Cult that would come out on top?


Neither I am afraid.The only organisation undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitic racism is the Labour party. This is being carried out by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. This is hot on the heels of an official internal Labour party enquiry led by chucklbutty, who subsequently was floated into the Lords on a sea of Whitewash. Adding to labour's woes is the news, several weeks ago, that GORDON NARDELL QC, the lawyer hired by Labour last year to oversee its response for dealing with the escalating crisis over anti-Semitism, has sensationally stood down from his role, plunging the party deeper into chaos.

We brexiteers regard the rank and file labourites as mislead and misguided rather than scum.
Terrible things facts!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1149844/labour-party-news-gordon-nardell-qc-anti-Semitism-jeremy-corbyn-chris-williamson
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/equality-body-launches-investigation-of-labour-antisemitism-claims
not forgetting the beeb of course

https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/holocaust-promoters-labour-party/

I could have used Guido of course but see no point in rubbing in salt. Who in their right mind would wish to depress the freezing point of a snowflake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 PM

A wonderful metaphor has arisen. Apparently the Brexit bus has been abandoned for the time being:

Although Brexit Party candidate Des Parkinson said the bus broke down last night, Derek Jeffs, a local removal company boss, told Wales Online that he saw the bus stranded on Saturday afternoon.

"It looked as if the bus had turned into the layby but there wasn't enough room to turn it around. However, the driver couldn't reverse because the road dipped down,” he said.

(Report from The Independent)


Not like the Brexit Party to get into a situation with no proper plan of how to reach their destination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 03:32 AM

"Neither I am afraid.The only organisation undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitic racism is the Labour party. "
Nothing found so far, nor will there be - No attacks on Jews, no Antisemitism, despite efforts to re-define the term by those who are not happy with humanitarian left politics

The police refused to act against Farage's obviously racist poster, though the force has admitted from time to time to being "institutionally racist" itself - shows the advantage of the right to be "tried by your peers"
The could only get Scumbag Robinson on attempting to pervert the course of justice, otherwise he and his numerous organisations are free to spread their filth whenever they please   
Maaybe Boris will make a difference OR MAYBE NOT

Nice summing up of who is WELL OUT IN FRONT in the Ravism/Anitsemitism Stakes
BREXIT ISN'T TOO FAR BEHIND

Incidentally
"antisemitic racism "
The labour Party may have been accused of antisemitism (and then, only since Corbyn expressed his disgust at what is happening to the Palestinian People) - they have never at any time been accused of having a racism problem - that lies only with The Other Side of the Chamber.
Perhaps those who can't tell the difference should invest in a good book on the subject and get someone to read it for them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:15 AM

ALSO WORTH A REVISIT
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM

'Bout time someone who uses terms like 'bogtrotter' and thinks Tommy Robinson has been hard done by calls it a day on accusations of Antisemitism, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM

I think the Equality and Human Rights Commission know a tad more about the labour party and accusations of antisemitism than a disenfranchised sparky. The accusation has remained unaddressed by the party for years.
The last internal enquiry is regarded by many as a complete travesty and whitewash.
If there was no possible case to answer then there would be no enquiry.
Simples!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:16 AM

Now jeas no antisemitism - doesn't get mor difficult than that ever
You inability to control your personal abuse when you have no valid arguments is showing again - 'simples' just about sums you up

More good news on Brexit
Vauxhall has stated they will pull out of Britain if there is a no deal Brexit
Johnson has given yet another bung to Norther Ireland to secure its support - this time only a "multi-million pound one, but open to negotiation, no doubt!
If this goes on the N.E. of Ireland will be the richest part of Britain without work or businesses (apart from the body-bag trade when all these shenanigans reopens the sectarian violence)
AN ASPECT OF BREXIT OFTEN FORGOTTEN

Pip-pip
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:48 AM

Should read NO JEWS NO ANTISEMITISM
By the way
"If there was no possible case to answer then there would be no enquiry."
Utter crap, of course - the Commission is obliged to investigate all such enquiries if there are enough of them 'The Labour Friends of Israel' have made sure there are since they first started their campaign
Similarly, The Labour Party is obliged to treat all such accusations seriously - as it has done
Since the Muslim leaders made similar accusations against the Tories, nothing whatever has been done and Islamophobia not only remains a major problem among the Conservatives, but it was the driving force which let the Brexit Genni out of its bottle
Stop uses the long-suffering Jewish People for Political Propaganda
Some of us are old enough to have been around to remember what right wing politics did to them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM

Tory Right-Wing Extremists getting ready to throw the vast majority of U.K. citizens under the bus following their recent coup...


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