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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Steve Shaw 13 Apr 19 - 01:16 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Apr 19 - 01:03 PM
DMcG 13 Apr 19 - 12:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Apr 19 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Apr 19 - 08:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM
Iains 12 Apr 19 - 05:26 PM
Raggytash 12 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM
DMcG 12 Apr 19 - 08:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Apr 19 - 08:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 19 - 06:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Apr 19 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 19 - 07:05 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 19 - 07:04 PM
Jeri 11 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 19 - 01:43 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 19 - 01:07 PM
Jeri 11 Apr 19 - 12:12 PM
Nigel Parsons 11 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 19 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 19 - 09:51 AM
Jon Freeman 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM
Stanron 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 19 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Apr 19 - 08:37 AM
DMcG 11 Apr 19 - 08:07 AM
DMcG 11 Apr 19 - 08:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 19 - 07:02 AM
Stanron 11 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 19 - 05:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM
Stanron 11 Apr 19 - 04:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 19 - 04:38 AM
DMcG 11 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM
DMcG 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM
David Carter (UK) 11 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Apr 19 - 03:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 19 - 09:55 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 01:16 PM

It's vital that Labour doesn't become seen to be facilitating brexit. The overwhelming majority of Labour voters, and an even bigger majority of party members, voted remain. Talking to the Tories is one thing (sheesh). But any agreement reached must be predicated on ratification by a public vote. And I'm saying that as a long-time opponent of referendums...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 01:03 PM

You could very well be right Kevin. Personally, although I object to referendums on principle, I’d go for it if it was the only way out. I’m not at all certain, though, that the result of the first referendum would be reversed - Leavers’ attitudes seem to have hardened and I don’t believe many would be won over to the Remain side.

From my perspective, absolutely the last thing I want is a GE. I think the Conservative Smear-Machine would go into overdrive in an attempt to finally and completely destroy JC’s reputation, and therefore wreck the chances of a Labour government being voted in. And, to be honest, I really wouldn’t want Labour to inherit the Tories’ mess - they started it, let them finish it. With any luck it will destroy them and see them out of office for years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:55 PM

Perhaps, but it could be an awful lot rides on this EU election. Pick a bunch of Greens, LibDems and co who are pro-EU, and Macron could see them as bulwarks against Le Penn and similar groups. Elect an unholy alliance of Farages and Rees-Mogg supporters out to obstruct the EU in every way, and we might see any appetite for a further extension severely curtailed.

I was reading a couple of interesting articles today about Heath and Wilson bringing into the (predecessors of) the EU. In "The Lady" magazine as it happens...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM

Unfortunately, while Parliament has said there shouldn't be a No Deal, that remains the default outcome if we come to a deadline with no agreement to a deal and no extension. Unless of course Parliament compels Article 50 to be revoked - which we can't depend on it doing.

A public vote, either a referendum or a General Election, seems the only way out. Even if Labour were to sign up to a deal with May, there is no reason to think it would be any more likely to be approved by the Commons. More Labour MPs might vote for it, but fewer Tories would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:25 PM

‘I’ve said it before on various Brexit threads, but I’ve thought right from the start that it is the intention of The Praying Mantis to obfuscate and prevaricate until the UK is unable to leave the EU at all, but she will leave herself in a position where she can shrug her bony, hunched shoulders and say, “Not my fault, guv - it was them lot over there wot dun it!”.

I’ve seen nothing in recent months to change my view, she’s already managed to get the possibility of a No-Deal Brexit kicked into touch by Parliament, all that remains now is to run the extension down until an agreement becomes an impossibility.

And I wish her every success.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

A distinct possibility.

May: Give us another extension
EU: Piss off. Either leave or stay but stop buggering about
May: See, we tried our best to leave with a good deal but that nasty EU would not let us. Not my fault.

We can but hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:05 PM

There's barely enough time for another referendum even if May gets her skates on, which she won't. The probable outcome is another extension. Which would mean no brexit. Bring it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM

I'd hoped that might have made the extension dependant upon a referendum or a general election. I can't see how May could have refused that. Maybe when she's back on Halloween. With nothing to show for the six months, they'll do that then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 05:26 PM

Daily Express poll.
Voting intent for EU elections:
Results of the poll:

    Brexit Party: 15,797 or 82 percent
    UKIP: 976 or six percent
    Change UK: 635 or four percent
    Labour Party: 600 or four percent
    Liberal Democrats: 380 or one percent
    Conservative Party: 361 or one percent
    Other: 237 or one percent
    Green Party: 209 or one percent
    SNP: 178 or less than one percent
    Plaid Cymru: 33 or less than one percent


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM

I am surprised that the EU has allowed any extension to the date of the UK leaving.

Having had the best part of three years, with all the 'deadlines' that that has included, why on earth would they consider another six months will make a difference.

Time for another referendum in my opinion, give all the new voters (some 2 million of them) the opportunity to voice their say.

They will be the ones who are most impacted by any future changes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

I think you’re probably right, DMcG. Plus the Tories are still at each other’s throats about their own leader, and they’re still making noises about a change. I wouldn’t be surprised if that becomes their main focus over the next few months, in which case look out for plenty of Diversion-Tactics - “Jeremy Corbyn - Anti-Semite/Terrorists’ Friend/Enemy of the State/Ally of the Russians/Allotment Association Show Cheat/yadda yadda”.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:26 AM

Well, I have had other things on my mind for a few days, so Brexit has not been on my agenda much. And with the MPs off on their hols I don't think there will be too much news for a little while. But I think there is a good chance of the time for the extension being wasted, because of attention on the local elections, EU elections and then several sets of holiday. So I could see us losing focus until early September


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:16 AM

It is, Kevin, but when posters get either too silly or abusive it does warrant bringing up the subject of how to deal with them. As to stopping other bits of thread drift, well, you might as well try to push butter up a hedgehog's arse with a hot needle!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 06:44 AM

Isn't this thread about Brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 04:50 AM

That is the best advice, BWM. As I said earlier, kicking shit only gets your shoes dirty and creates a nasty smell. Just step over it!

Dealing With Flamers and Trolls


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:05 PM

Reflect on


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:04 PM

Brexit, Jeri. Which is what I wanted this thread to be all about. And it's my thread, if ownership of threads is allowed. And the chap you are affecting to scratch your head about had an agenda that was anything but. Good work on your friend bobad, but you might like to reflect your earlier post. And, before you say it, I know I've been no saint. But I'm trying, whether you see it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM

Bob, you don't actually know, but it's good to have something to fight about, isn't it? This is the mindset here now. Forget the subject and go after people because it's fun, and it makes your ego happy.

What's the subject again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Guys, the mods are working to prevent the Resident Right-Wing Extremist from wrecking the thread any more than he's already done. Let's not let his cronies and supporters take over where he was forced to leave off, eh?

Ignore the Agents Provocateurs, please!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

"The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out "
Actually, the guy I wa referring to was President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan
Iaian's tripped over himself denying it was his friend Bashar Hafez al-Assad who had been arrested - he likes to defend those he supports, no matter what it takes
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:43 PM

Steve beat me to it. I could also add that a cut and paste of the complete post seems rather superfluous when a simple reference will do, but I won't because I am no nitpicker :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM

Words like ‘Birds’ and ‘Feather’ spring to mind. {{{heartfelt sigh}}}


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

It seems the provoked is the guilty pary in the eyes of some (noticeably the racist provocation features nowhere on some people's Richter scale
Little wonder we have no Muslim and few Irish contributors here
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

You certainly don't seem to know of a really effective way of keeping this website decent and clean, Jeri. I for one am exceptionally grateful that his gratuitous and routine nastiness, which you never criticised or acted against, is no longer accepted here. "Simple presence" my fat bottom. Or perhaps you agreed with his detestable opinions and his attack modus operandi...

Nigel, well done for your best nitpick ever. Everyone and his dog knows that the term "roaming charges" refers to the EXTRA charges you used to incur for using your data outside your own country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:07 PM

From Today's Irish Times (apologies to S.T.C.)
Jim Carroll


The Rime of the Ancient Brexiter
(Scene: The entrance to a polling booth, somewhere in England, in the distant future. A trio of Eurosceptic voters is interrupted by a bearded old man, who looks like a strange mixture of Michael Gove, Nigel Farage, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
He grabs one of them by the hand.)

It is an ancient Brexiter
And he stoppeth one of three
“By thy long gray beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp’st thou me?”

He holds him with his skinny hand,
“There was a bus,” quoth he.
“Hold off! Unhand me, greybeard loon!”
Eftsoons his hand dropped he.

“The bus was cheered, the Bo’sun* steered,
From Finchley to Furness
Three-fifty millions we would save:
‘Let’s fund the NHS’.” (*old nautical abbreviation for “Boris Johnson”)

The Sun came up upon the left
The Mail came up the right
And though the vote was sorely cleft
We won, and danced all night

The bus it powered on, pell-mell
On hardest Brexit bent
We’d triumphed, so we sent to hell
The forty-eight per cent

But now another ’lection came
Twas early (Missus) May
And yet we froze in icy wastes
And somehow lost our way

The ice was here, the ice was there
The ice was all around
The Bo’sun said if May were gone
We’d once-more forward bound

“God save thee, ancient Brexiter
What memory haunts thee thus?”
“I backed the Bo’sun’s plan at first,
Then pulled a double-cross!”

Yet still the sunlit uplands loomed
And soon the ice did crack
We passed the Irish Border line
With two words: “stop” and “back”

And now a great bird hove in view
As if sent by the gods
Its wing-span covered ten MPs
Its name was Nigel Dodds

The back-stop was a hellish thing,
It warned - and would work woe.
If Dodds would fly behind our ship
The back-stop had to go.

And so we tried to ditch that stop
To th’ task we downward hunkered
But our enemies did anchor drop
Till we were Jean-Claude Junckered

Then the wind - alas! – it droppeth too
How to move we had no notion
Ours a tainted ship of state
Upon a tainted ocean

Day after day, day after day
No mast or top-sail flew
And all the while to Captain May
We were a ghastly crew

Yet flew we still the Brexit flag
For something drove us on
Till another spectre made us sag
Its name was Bercow, John

“Order! Order!” everywhere
It said, as hearts did sink
“Order! Order!” everywhere
It drove us all to drink

We tabled motions by the hour
The votes were chock-a-block
“Aye-aye”, “nay-nay”, and so it went
“The ayes have it - unlock!”

But still no sign of breakthrough came
The crew remained at odds
Until despairing - and for shame!
I shafted Nigel Dodds!

The old man gazed with countenance sad
His eyes nine fathom deep
It looked as if a conscience (bad)
Had long disturbed his sleep

But now he grabbed the hand again
And bade once more be heard
He’d leave the Eurosceptic
With this, one final word:

“He playeth best, who loveth best
All creatures great and small
Yea - even the forty-eight per cent
God loveth them and all.”

The Brexiter, whose eye is bright
Whose beard is aged with hoar,
Is gone, and leaves the voter
Shook at poll-booth door

He went in like one that hath been stunned
His face was creased with pain
A sadder and a wiser man
He voted to remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 12:12 PM

The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out before his post was deleted for god-know-what-reason (except maybe his simple presence in a thread provokes people who are not in enough control of themselves to not be provoked, and go down that off-topic rabbit hole pulling the whole thread in with them, but what do I know?)

As for Brexit, I wonder if that will be delayed until forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand


I'm not sure where that was copied from, or whether it was made up on the spot. I've just checked a couple of the points for accuracy:

...the EU has
ended roaming charges

This should be 'limited roaming charges to the roaming charges you pay in your home nation, with limitations' Here There can still be additional charges if you use the internet above a certain level.


...the EU has
given free rail travel to teenagers

This should be 'given 30 days free rail travel to 18 year olds' details: Here

Usual remain tactics of make enough statements and hope the gullible will take them all at face value.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 10:53 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

...the UK has
got through 3 Brexit ministers
changed UK passports to blue
spent £66 billion on failed Brexit
given MPs two payrises

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

"Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir"
That makes sense Jon - pity
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:51 AM

it does not change the fact that the EU would not discuss anything before the money

I don't blame them! The UK owes the EU billions. If someone owed me that much money I would not begin negotiations unless they agreed to pay what was due either!

Here is a simple explanation of why the UK should pay this money.

Everything you need to know about the Brexit “divorce bill”

That we would not have to pay anything was yet another lie by the leave campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir. He has been arrested


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

DMcG wrote: Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Quite a lot of criticism of the BBC, especially John Humphries, in giving David Davis an easy ride while showing no ability to recognise the reality that it is not up to the UK to say what can be done, but it needs a joint agreement where the UK is the supplicant:

Your use first I think, and it does not change the fact that the EU would not discuss anything before the money. That was not a 'Little Englander' ploy. It was an EU ploy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:25 AM

Sorry to be the brearer of bad news, but the report suggests the Army has arrested Assad
I'f it's true you've lost ANOTHER ROLE MODEL
Fingers crossed eh !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:37 AM

Nothing to do with all this, but don't want to open another thread yet
Did Pat mishear a news report or has Assad been arrested ?
JIm


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:07 AM

...that their motivations ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:05 AM

According to COllins dictionary:


A supplicant is a person who prays to God or respectfully asks an important person to help them or to give them something that they want very much.


Whether money is offered as part of that plea has no bearing on the relationship. I agree with DtG that the money is already owed, but even if it was not, its presence merely showed the intensity of the plea.

It is odd that Brexiteers often state their there motivations are due by principles other than money - such as sovereignty - but somehow assume the EU is only interested in the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:02 AM

So why did the EU refuse to discuss anything until Mrs May agreed to cough up the cash?

Not sure what you mean here, Stanron. By 'cough up the cash' do you mean pay the money that was rightly due to the EU in long term commitments or something else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: This is just more little-Englandism.

So why did the EU refuse to discuss anything until Mrs May agreed to cough up the cash?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM

The brilliant John Crace hits the nail on the head once again! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 05:37 AM

"The EU is the supplicant and Thereasa May's big failure is to not use this to her advantage."

This is just more little-Englandism. Now let's suppose that May can somehow concoct a threat to the EU that they won't get our money. Blackmail, sort of thing. Exactly how do you think that would help in future trade negotiations? I'll tell you what: the little offshore island of 66 million would suffer a damn sight more than the bloc of over 400 million that has Germany as its engine room. Something like half our trade is with the EU, not to speak of the heavy involvement of the services sector. You want to compromise all that by doing a Rees-Mogg and playing all awkward. You're living in the 19th century, mate. Britannia don't rule no waves any more. Hubris goeth before a fall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

Posted by a Facebook friend

I wrote this post just before the referendum in June 2016, just before the referendum. It went sort-of viral, with over 5,000 shares and lots of 'likes'. I said I would re-post after a decent interval. I got some things wrong; for instance, I missed the Irish border question completely. For information really.
Brexit research 17th June 2016
I've been fairly quiet on the Brexit question for a few days. That's because I've been putting in some serious time running down the facts behind the hateful rhetoric that is being spewed by both sides (although principally by the 'leave' campaign). Those of you who know me well will know that I'm something of a data freak. I like facts, not opinion, especially verifiable, reliable facts. I've tried to look for credible sources, including official data from here and overseas, articles and books by established experts, independent research and properly audited and/or peer reviewed economic data. Posting all the data would take too long; even a list of references would mean that no-one would read this post, since the attention span of a butterfly seems standard these days. Instead, here are my conclusions.
1. The leave campaign exists primarily to serve the political ambitions of a small group of far-right politicians. Leaving Europe will, in their view, overturn our already far-right government and allow them to seize power, shifting the country towards a one-party state. This conclusion is based on the lack of evidence for any economic, social or national security benefit from leaving the EU.
2. The NHS will cease to exist in a very short space of time; all of the likely wielders of power in a post-Brexit country (Gove, Johnson, Duncan-Smith, Farage, Fox et al) are on record (repeatedly) as being strongly in favour of dismantling the NHS, selling it to private companies (many of which they have a financial interest in) and moving to a grossly inefficient and unfair insurance based model like the discredited pre-Obamacare US model.
3. If we leave the EU our economy is likely to go swiftly into recession, as there are no plans to replace our trade deals with the EU; just vague hopes that the EU will be nice to us. That's highly unlikely; if we leave, and it appears that we are doing well, the EU itself may break up completely. The big players are not going to let that happen. It's far more likely that they will make it as hard as possible, so they can say to any wavering nations 'see, look how awful it is if you leave'. Expect punitive and harsh trade barriers from day one. (If you want evidence of this, it's worth looking at what French and German politicians are saying). The Americans will not treat trade deals with the UK as a priority, as stated by President Obama and both the current candidates for the Presidency.We already trade with India and China, and there is no good reason why this trade would suddenly increase. In any case, most of the trade is imports.
4. Our economy is heavily dependent on the financial services sector. One of the main reasons for the growth and success of the City of London as a financial centre is the close links with other European centres like Paris and Frankfurt. Major players (including most of the big banks, insurance companies and hedge funds) are looking at shifting their operations elsewhere if the UK leaves the EU.
5. There will be little or no change in the rate of immigration. Free movement of EU nationals will stop, but this is a small part of immigration as a whole. There will be no effect on refugees from Syria, Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, other than to shift our border from Calais (under an agreement with France) to Dover. This is likely to make it much easier for refugees to get here, and will probably swamp our already inadequate immigration appeals system. Why immigration is an issue is puzzling. All the credible and current research says that immigrants are net contributors to the economy (around £20 billion since 2006), are less likely than UK born people to use public services like the NHS and schools, are much less likely to claim benefits, commit crimes at a lower rate than UK citizens, do not take jobs away from UK citizens (there is strong evidence that they actually create jobs by starting and running businesses) and do not drive down wages (Wages are linked to government fiscal and economic policy, not immigration rates).
6. We will be governed by institutions that are less democratic than those in the EU. Our parliament currently has over 800 unelected lawmakers, and a cabinet that can include people who have never stood for election in their lives. The EU parliament is an entirely elected body, and is the only EU body that can pass and ratify legislation.
7. The so-called 'third sector' in this country (including most charities, housing associations and voluntary organisations) are heavily dependent on funding from EU sources such as regional development grants. The people who actually write the bids for such funding, and those who run such organisations, are speaking with pretty much the same voice. The current austerity measures have slashed their budgets to the bone, and EU funding is in many cases the only thing that is keeping them afloat. This will disappear, and the leave campaign has no plans at all for how this will be replaced. The most likely scenario (according to those who actually work in this sector) is that many organisations will simply disappear, and their services with them. It should be noted that Cameron's 'big society' idea meant that many services that were fully funded by the government now reside in the the third sector, following swingeing cuts in public services. The third sector is now doing stuff that is essential for the well being of many people, including children, old people, disabled people and the mentally and physically ill.
8. We currently have excellent security processes in place in conjunction with other EU governments. Most of these are not bilateral agreements between governments; they exist within frameworks and treaties negotiated through the EU itself. Upon exit, these fall, and will need to be replaced. There is no clear idea how this will be done from the leave campaign. The best we can hope for is a long interval with no such agreements until something can be cobbled together. The risk of terrorism and organised crime during this period is likely to increase, according to senior police officers in this country and elsewhere.
9. Scotland is likely to vote in favour of remaining in the EU, as there are clear benefits for doing so in terms of the economic support they receive. If that is the case, then there is a wholly legitimate reason for a second independence referendum, and the likelihood is that this time it will be won.
10. Universities benefit from EU funding, especially for research. This will disappear, and there are no plans for how this will be replaced.

I've fact checked all this as far as I can, including some fairly remote (but credible) sources. I've spoken directly to people involved, and to researchers and others who have expressed views. The overwhelming conclusion is that there is no good reason for leaving, other than ignorance, gullibility and bigotry, fanned by a right wing press drunk on the idea that they have the power to bring down governments. They have formed an unholy alliance of the far-right, the racists, the power hungry politicians either too extreme or incompetent to gain power by legitimate means, the ill-informed, the misinformed and those too idle to become informed. We are sleepwalking into a right-wing coup that will change our country forever. I'm appealing to those of my friends who are even contemplating a 'leave' vote, and to those who are not intending to vote. This is a last chance, and failing to preserve much of what makes us a country will be on your heads. Please think again. If anyone wants to de-friend me after this, I would understand, but I hope that the hard work I've put into this will make some people change their mind


A perfect summary as to what is happening. Well predicted, Tim :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:59 AM

DMcG I didn't catch the interview but I disagree with your suggestion that the UK is a supplicant. The UK is the bearer of many billions of currency units. Billions of currency units that the EU desperately wants. The EU is the supplicant and Thereasa May's big failure is to not use this to her advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

BWM - Love the photo of brexit piece :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:38 AM

I don't know what world Davis is living in, but it sure isn't the real one. To quote one comment in the Guardian:

"Maybe the BBC, by interviewing David Davis, are trying to show that's it's possible to be really very, very stupid and still hold a senior post in government.
Equal opportunities and all that."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM

Given the latest extension, perhaps Nigel wants to say whether he has changed his mind on his prediction that we will leave on WTO rules? And, perhaps, attach a date to the prediction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Quite a lot of criticism of the BBC, especially John Humphries, in giving David Davis an easy ride while showing no ability to recognise the reality that it is not up to the UK to say what can be done, but it needs a joint agreement where the UK is the supplicant:


The former Brexit secretary, David Davis, has called for the withdrawal agreement to be renegotiated and for technical solutions to the Irish border issue to be revisited under a managed no deal.
To the incredulity of MPs and commentators Davis insisted that the Malthouse compromise still offered the best solution to the Brexit deadlock.

...

Reaction to the interview has been scathing:

===
David Lammy

David Davis stuck on a loop on #r4today.

Once again spouting the same nonsense about reopening May's deal and claiming every expert is wrong about No Deal being an economic catastrophe.

Brexiteers have run out of ideas and their lies have been exposed. Let's #PutItToThePeople

1,456
8:30 AM - Apr 11, 2019
Twitter
===
Ben Bradshaw

Oh God! On such an important morning @BBCr4today thinks the answer is to get the clueless David Davis on for its main interview to witter on about the dead as a dodo “Brady compromise”. #BrexitShambles #FinalSay #PeoplesVote
====
Angus B MacNeil MP

John Humphreys allowing David Davis to make all sorts of sweeping assertions on the EU in a cosy fireside chat on #r4today ..
Just allowing misinformation
...reality is UK controls own migration and most "migrants" come from outwith EU

37
8:25 AM - Apr 11, 2019
===
MichaelWhite

Listening to Brexit Bulldog, David Davis, on @r4Today is to be reminded just how hopeless Team Brexit has been in putting together and sustaining a coherent position for more than 2o minutes: cheerfully casual, as usual

33
8:37 AM - Apr 11, 2019


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM

I’d add to that, the hugely simplified system for the intra-community movement of goods and services. My entire working life was spent in companies which traded internationally, and trading (both directions) with EU Member-States was infinitely easier and cheaper than with non-EU countries. And the consolidated banking system provided a considerably simpler and safer system for payments between traders in Member-States.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM

To me the main benefit of EU membership is Freedom of Movement and the opportunities that this gives to our young people. Other major benefits such as Erasmus, Horizon2020, depend to some extent upon our underpinning right of Freedom of Movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:39 PM

Newsflash - Scientists have released the first-ever photograph of Brexit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:55 AM

The main point is, David (C), that we are, or should be, discussing whether the benefits of the EU outweigh the disadvantages. I believe they do and am firmly in the remain camp. But other people have the opposing viewpoint. Up to now, however, no one on here has been able to articulate why they feel that leaving would be better other than by producing vague claims about sovereignty and repeating the lies told during the leave campaign.

BTW - I clicked this thread instead of the 'Black Hole' thread inadvertently. I think it was probably Freudian... :-)


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