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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Stilly River Sage 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 09:37 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 19 - 09:20 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM
DMcG 01 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 07:24 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 06:16 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 19 - 05:46 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 19 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 05:40 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 19 - 05:33 AM
DMcG 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 19 - 04:27 AM
DMcG 01 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 09:00 PM
Nigel Parsons 31 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:13 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 07:47 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 07:42 PM
DMcG 31 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 07:14 PM
Nigel Parsons 31 Oct 19 - 07:11 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 01:55 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM
Nigel Parsons 31 Oct 19 - 12:53 PM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM
peteaberdeen 31 Oct 19 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 19 - 05:37 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM
DMcG 31 Oct 19 - 03:10 AM
robomatic 31 Oct 19 - 12:01 AM
Stanron 30 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM

All of the rational portion of the United States offers an apology with profound sense of shame that the meddlesome Resident of the United States has set his sites on supporting xenophobic racists in other countries. The only reason we can figure is that he has a thing for dictators who refuse to consider human rights. He is also willfully stubborn in refusing to accept advice from experts or about trying to educate himself regarding what the job of President is supposed to perform. He will never be your ally, he's only in it for himself, probably to inject revenue into any property he owns within your boundaries. #HeadsUp


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:37 AM

Racist Farage has demanded that racist Johnson abandons his proposals for Brexit otherwise his racist Brexit Party will contest every seat in the General Election
Racist Trump has suggested an leadership alliance between Farage and the Tories - and what we know what Trump's "suggestions" mean - ask Greenland
So a disgraced right-wing inept and disgraced political opportunist stands to joing up with an inept clown to guide Britain though the greates threat to its future that it has faced
Happy days      

"So you are suggesting the present enquiry is spurious?"
ABSOLUTELY
No atatcks on Jews - no antisemitism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:20 AM

If anyone here wants to resurrect that tired old antisemitism stuff, sod off and start a thread on it, please. Now if not sooner. I want this one to keep going, thanks.

Good to see that Jeremy has two new friends, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump!

The latest Tory lie is that a Labour win would generate two referendums in 2020. Even if Labour and the SNP form some sort of alliance, there is no chance of an independence referendum next year. It's just bullshite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

May's Deal aka Boris's deal is a reparations treaty with worse terms than staying in the EU.


There has never been a shred of evidence that Labour has a major problem with discrimination against the Jewish People

So you are suggesting the present enquiry is spurious?
Do not be ridiculous! If the enquiry is nonsense, as you suggest, why is the Labour party scared it might face bankruptcy? As usual your arguments are but hot air, and merely trying to provoke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

The greased albino piglet vs the nicotine stained toad.

Should be an interesting match. Who will out-lie who?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM

I see Farage has just declared the Johnson deal to be so bad it would amount to "the end of Brexit."

it would be interesting to see how the Brexiteers on this site think they should vote then. Of course, a vote is secret so they are under no obligation to tell us, but they could still indicate whether they think the proposed deal is 'great' as Johnson claims, or 'the end of Brexit' as Faeage thinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:24 AM

There has never been a shred of evidence that Labour has a major problem with discrimination against the Jewish People - all accusations of "antisemitish have come from 'Friends of Israel' in various forms and right-wing political opponents of Corbyn
There was not a single complaint made against Labour until Corby gave his support to The Palaestinians - not one
Israel has deliberately blurred the lines between attacks against Jews and criticsm of Israeli policy, which has harmed the Jewish Poeple as much as it has harmed the Labour Party - synagogues have now come under attack by right-wing groups in Europe - from the right - never from the left
Israel has over the last 18 months killed three times more unarmed demonstrators than were shor down at Sharpville and the press has been totally silent about this fact for fear of being branded "antisemitic"
No attacks on Jews - no antisemitism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:16 AM

With all the unsubstantiated claims of racism being hurled about, instead of reasoned argument, let us look at the facts.
In May, the Equality and Human Rights Commission announced an inquiry into whether Labour had "unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they are Jewish". (clearly an accusationof waycism)
From the Independent:(Oct.12 2019)
Members of Labour’s ruling executive have privately voiced fears that the party could be bankrupted as a result of an official inquiry into antisemitism, The Independent has learnt.

Members of the National Executive Committee (NEC) have expressed concerns that a damning verdict from the equalities watchdog about Labour’s handling of antisemitic abuse could open the party up to a slew of lawsuits from Jewish members and former members, possibly resulting in hefty damages having to be paid.

It is understood that the issue was discussed at a recent NEC meeting, with members of the committee voicing major concerns about the fallout from the probe and who would be financially responsible.


This would suggest chuckleberry's previous enquiry on the same matter was a whitewash.
Terrible things facts!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:46 AM

Heheh. Was that little HMV doggy peering into the sound-horn really a poodle, Jim? That would be very appropriate!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:44 AM

We had Liam Fox doing "dither and delay" this morning. I tell you, that stupid expression will be all over the place like a rash in no time at all. Ironic, really, when you think that Boris could have had his deal through by now if only he'd allowed a sensible period of time for scrutiny. Doing his deal then pulling it when things were going swimmingly was an excellent example of dither and delay, I'd say. Still, if you want an election you have to have someone to blame for something, I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:40 AM

".Farage (the racist) and Johnson (the other racist)....""
Whoops - sorry
To a degree it doesn't matter what Johnson is when he becomes Trump's glove-puppet - his (Britain's) role will be confined to obeying HMV
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:33 AM

"Trumps deliberate support for Farage (the racist) and Johnson..."

You misspoke, Jim. You should have said "...Farage (the racist) and Johnson (the other racist)...." Piccaninnies, watermelon smiles, letterboxes, bank robbers - remember?

It feels like the morning after one of those end-of-the-world predictions that didn't come true. I wonder whether our brexiteers would like to turn the clock back. Tock, tick...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

if Johnson wins, with a strong hard Brexit majority we could leave by 31st January 2020, or even perhaps 1st January. At which point he will be in power for the next five years. so it is perfectly right and proper to focus on the time after Brexit day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

The Labour strategy is to try almost to divorce Brexit from the other issues, arguing that can be settled further down the line in a referendum with a "credible" Leave option and Remain on the ballot.

Labour policy in a nutshell: Fiddle about, fiddle about.
We all know what happened to Rome when Nero had the same policy.
The turkey roast should be a stunner in December!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:27 AM

"You mention 'foreign interference'. Where have I supported that?"
Trumps deliberate support for Farage (the racist) and Johnson and his attack on one of the main candidates in the forthcoming election ids totally unprecedented - it is a blatant attempt to influence the selection o the party that will have to clean up the mess of Brexit and put Britain on its feet again
What Trump has said so far is a step away from saying "If you elect this man there will be no Trade Deal" - given his track record that is on the cards as a next step
Given the unstable monster that Trump has proven to be, the silence of you and yours at his behaviour (and the open support from your running mate) is an utter disgrace - "traitorous" to borrow a phrase now being bandied about by your lot
As I said - you shoud be ashamed of yourself for lying down and allowing this to happen without comment
Shame on you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM

Despite what some people claim, Labour's position is very clear, as Steve says. But in fact you can go further. Labour is trying to get a deal *precisely because* it is respecting the referendum result. If they did not, there would be no need to seek a deal. And any deal they negotiate will be to leave and therefore 100% compatible with the 2016 result, which did not insist on any specific kind of leave, whatever Brexiteers would have you believe. Then they will put it to a confirmatory vote *precisely because* the 2016 did not say how we should leave so it is desirable to ask the question "Did we get this right?"

Also, we can anticipate future criticism that they will deliberately negotiate a bad deal to try to make people vote it down. They are aware the outcome of a second referendum could go either way, so they want all options to be as good as possible because they may have to implement it and live with the consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:00 PM

If there are any thickies still reading this thread, the Labour position can be easily understood by anyone with a CSE grade five in Media Studies, etc, or even by those who narrowly missed passing the eleven-plus. It is thus: if Labour gets power, they will negotiate a deal with the EU which they will then put to the people, with the alternative of remain on the ballot. How hard is that, chaps? And when it comes to that deal, it will involve a customs union, alignment with the single market and full rights for EU citizens. The EU will love it.

It's been as clear as that for ages. Any questions, leavers? Please let me know if it's too hard for you. Perhaps you'd be better employed trying to work out the plot of Spot The Dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM

Jim:
For what am I supposed to be ashamed?
You mention 'foreign interference'. Where have I supported that?
If it is just that I haven't railed against it, then that is a very strange view point for you to take.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:13 PM

Isn't it strange that our resident flag-waggers don't give a toss about foreign interference in the forthcoming British election
Maybe they can persuade Putin to send one of his agents with some of their magic potion to rub out the opposition
Nigel - you should be ****** ashamed of yourself - I expected you to rise above your running-mate, who has welcomed it but - no - a matched pair!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:47 PM

The deal did not go ahead because Boris Johnson pulled it petulantly, because he tried, undemocratically, to force it through with a totally unreasonable programme motion. Who knows, had he consented to two or three more days for scrutiny, we could have been out of the EU tonight. A Tory issue, aTory problem, a Tory delay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM

It's a bit like science, Nigel. Close scrutiny and a search for corroboration. Nothing's perfect, but I was fine with Full Fact on this occasion. Next time could be different. I wonder whether you apply the same principle to your Mail reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:42 PM

Instead of attempting to make an issue of brexit not happening, (because we all know it was sabotaged by remainer MPs aided by a biased Bercow), why not give us a summary of compo's position on Brexit. I confess that I am a little confused and the long awaited election gets closer by the day. Labour's wobbling is going to eviscerate them at the ballot box.
Libdems to the left, brexit party to the right, the middle ground will will be a blasted wasteland of the shattered remnants of shell shocked labour. Wishful thinking or reality?
I predict the brexit party will now rise in the polls now the die is cast, especially after a ringing endorsement from President Trump.
Meanwhile back at the ranch - another bad day for compo:
On the first day of the campaign trail, Jeremy Corbyn suffered three major election blows. For the first time in its 100-year-history, the Jewish Labour Movement effectively went on strike, saying it would no longer send out activists due to the 'culture of anti-Semitism'. Labour also lost a battle with the BBC after attacking their anti-Semitism documentary and its presenter John Ware for apparent inaccuracy . To make matters worse for Corbyn, Nicola Sturgeon described him as 'completely and utterly useless'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM

Jonathon Lis in Guardian commented:

We know Halloween is overhyped, but it did promise to be genuinely terrifying this year. Jacob Rees-Mogg warned that the Conservative party would cease to exist. Boris Johnson declared that he would die in a ditch. Mark Francois informed daytime television viewers that the country would explode


Well, did the earth move for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:14 PM

Bugger. Ten past eleven and nothing's happened. Still, never mind. Boris has PROMISED that we'll leave on 31 January. So that's all right then. A Boris promise. Woohoo! I'll restart the clock. Tick tock...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:11 PM

If you find anything wrong with what Jim and I have reproduced from Full Fact, Nigel, let's be having your alternative take. I read it carefully and couldn't find any defects in the piece. So it's over to you.

It is a fairly long piece, and I have not found problems with it.
My comment was much shorter, and you appear to have ignored the final paragraph:

And do remainers trust the "Full Fact" website?


If so we should not have further comments from remainers that the only reason (or even main reason) for Brexit is a forthcoming change in EU tax law:

If so we should not have further comments from remainers that the only reason (or even main reason) for Brexit is a forthcoming change in EU tax law: Full Facts >Full Facts


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:40 PM

As I sit here typing this it's 24 minutes to Brexit. I know this because Boris promised me. No ifs, no buts, do or die (he needs to reread that poem properly, actually), or belly-up in a ditch. I'm awaiting with bated breath. Will there be a loud siren? Will every church bell ring out? Will the mountains of the earth be laid low? Or shall I moisten this squib that I bought specially for Guido Fawkes - oops, sorry, GUY Fawkes night - next week? Anyway, I'll miss the moment as I'll be watching the Question Time bearpit, fool that I am! Tick bloody tock!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

"And do remainers trust the "Full Fact" website?"

If you find anything wrong with what Jim and I have reproduced from Full Fact, Nigel, let's be having your alternative take. I read it carefully and couldn't find any defects in the piece. So it's over to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM

Boris and Farage have Trump on their side. Far more useful doncha think?

and even more importantly the polls ( not that they mean much this far from polling)
Ipsos MORI: CON: 41% (+8) LAB: 24% (-) LDEM: 20% (-3) BREX: 7% (-3)
YouGov: CON: 36% (-) LAB: 21% (-2) LDEM: 18% (-) BREX: 13% (+1)
Survation: CON: 34% (+2) LAB: 26% (+2) LDEM: 19% (-2) BREX: 12% (-1)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM

JOHNSON HAS GOD ON HIS SIDE

Don't suppose Nigel and his democrats would care to comment on this !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:55 PM

BREXIT AND OFFSHORE ACCOUNTS
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:40 PM

Full Facts is a website set up by Tory Donors and is backed by a network of major investors with their spoons dipped deeply into the Tory soup-bowl so any support for it's findings needs to take that into consideration
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM

The Full Facts about Full Facts Claim
Jim Carroll

We checked Boris Johnson's claim that a Brexit extension will cost £1bn a month – and yes, it's wrong
Full Fact: The PM is misleading you. If you’re going to make such a comparison, then you do need to actually compare the costs of both things
Tom Phillips @flashboy
Thursday 5 September 2019 12:50

In Boris Johnson’s first prime minister’s questions yesterday he claimed it would cost a net £1bn per month for Britain to stay in the EU beyond 31 October.
The claim echoes similar comments from foreign secretary Dominic Raab. Speaking on BBC Radio 4 earlier this week, he also said that the bill put forward by Hilary Benn and others – intended to rule out a no deal Brexit unless parliament consents – would cost British taxpayers £1bn a month. That’s based on the fact that we would be paying into the EU budget for longer.
This is an example of how a claim can be misleading without necessarily being incorrect. It needs more context.
The figure is based on a comparison with a no deal scenario – something that the government itself has said it doesn’t want. It relies on the assumption that under no deal, the UK won’t pay the “divorce bill” agreed with the EU. And it completely ignores a pretty fundamental point: that no deal itself would have significant costs.
The “divorce bill” agreed by Theresa May’s government already includes the UK’s normal payments into the EU budget until December 2020. The legislation currently before parliament itself proposes an extension only until January 2020.
As such, any payments into the EU budget following an extension during this period would reduce the final “divorce bill” paid upon leaving the EU by the same amount. And so, leaving with a deal in January 2020 wouldn’t cost more in EU budget contributions than leaving with a deal in October 2019 would.
This has already happened once: the original settlement was around £39 bn, but this is now down to £33bn, largely as a result of extending Brexit from March to October this year.
The government could of course plan to try and renegotiate this financial settlement before 31 October, but we aren’t aware of any indication so far that they hope to do this. The government position is that it still wants to leave with a deal, and any renegotiation efforts are focused on the question of the Irish backstop.
If Johnson is comparing the cost of any extension to a no-deal exit at the end of October, then his figure of £1bn for monthly EU contributions is in the right ballpark. However, as BBC Reality Check has pointed out, this doesn’t factor in payments received from the EU, which would reduce the amount by about a quarter.

It’s also not entirely clear that leaving with no deal would mean we could avoid paying the “divorce bill”, something which Boris Johnson has said several times would be his plan in a no-deal scenario.

When Full Fact looked at this question earlier this year, we found that under international law it’s not clearly set out that the UK has to pay anything once it has left the EU. However, the EU would be within its rights to take the case to the International Court of Justice on the grounds of the UK’s repeated commitments to pay, and the outcome of such a case would be hard to predict.
Like a lot of what’s said by all sides in the Brexit debate, context is everything. While not necessarily wrong to compare the potential cost of an extension to a no-deal exit, it’s misleading to do so given that the government’s stated intent is still to leave with a deal.
And if you’re going to make such a comparison, then you do need to actually compare the costs of both things – you need to factor in the fact that no deal itself will have both direct costs, and a broader economic impact. Most studies predict that the negative economic effects of leaving the EU will exceed the benefits of not having to pay the EU membership fee.
Tom Phillips is editor of Full Fact, the UK's independent fact checking charity


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:53 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:09 AM
And Johnson has repeatedly lied by claiming that every month of brexit delay costs the country £1 billion. From the Full Fact website:
In the House of Commons this week, Boris Johnson has twice repeated his claim that extending the date of Brexit for three months would cost £1 billion a month.



And do remainers trust the "Full Fact" website?


If so we should not have further comments from remainers that the only reason (or even main reason) for Brexit is a forthcoming change in EU tax law: Full Facts


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

More of Johnsons supporter's are jumping ship.
This is a fine example of what happens when relabeling a newspaper article and not having a clue as to what is going on. One of tho MPs had the whip withdrawn and the other, a staunch remainer in a leave constituency, voted against the government in several pieces of recent legislation.
Along with many other denizens of the swamp they are leaving before being unceremoniously pushed by their constituents.
Neither, by the wildest stretch of the imagination can be regarded as Boris supporters.
So the attached link, as it is retitled, is simply false news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM

"Unfortunate things, facts, aren’t they Steve?"

Dunno, John. Know anyone here I could ask? :-). Oddly, I thought I could hear a clock ticking too but it appears to have stopped...Maybe the battery was only designed to "do" until October 31, then die...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM

MORE OF JOHNSON'S SUPPORTERS ABANDONING SHIP have had enough and are doing a runner
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

Unfortunate things, facts, aren’t they Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:09 AM

And Johnson has repeatedly lied by claiming that every month of brexit delay costs the country £1 billion. From the Full Fact website:

In the House of Commons this week, Boris Johnson has twice repeated his claim that extending the date of Brexit for three months would cost £1 billion a month.

This is false, as we have said repeatedly. A three month extension costs the UK the same amount in EU budget payments as leaving under Boris Johnson’s own deal on 31 October would have.

Mr Johnson should correct his untrue statements to the House.

Why it’s wrong

The claim is based on the amount that the UK pays into the EU budget. Those payments are worth roughly £1 billion a month, although this doesn’t take into account some money that the UK gets back from the EU, as BBC Reality Check has pointed out.

But under Boris Johnson’s proposed deal, the UK will pay these budget contributions even after we’ve left the EU, until the end of December 2020. This is part of the financial settlement (better known as the “divorce bill”).

This is the same situation as under Theresa May’s deal—Boris Johnson’s government did not renegotiate the financial settlement.

That means the budget payments made during a Brexit extension to January 2020 simply have the effect of reducing the total divorce bill upon the UK’s departure. This has already happened before: the divorce bill was estimated at around £39 billion in March 2019, but is now down to around £33 billion as a result of extending the Brexit date by six months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM

I note that the latest Dominic Cummings edict to all prominent Tories, in every soundbite to come, is that they must characterise Corbyn via the words "dither and delay." If they can work in "get brexit done" as well, that would be a bonus. Be prepared to hear both expressions emanating from the mouths of Tory sheep 20,000 times in the next few weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

The conservative party have reported momentum to the Electoral Commission. Tory vice-chairman Paul Scully has written to the Electoral Commission to raise their concerns about Momentum’s failure to register as a non-party campaigner for the upcoming election. In less than 12 hours, Momentum claimed they’ve already raised £100,000.

If a non-party campaigner intends to spend more than £20,000, the law requires that they should be registered with the Electoral Commission. Momentum have already been spending money over the last couple of months so could well have already committed a technical breach. The law clearly states that under Political Parties Elections Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA) non-party campaigners are required to register with the Electoral Commission if they incur ‘controlled expenditure’ over a prescribed threshold during the ‘regulated period’ prior to an election. We are now in the regulated ‘long campaign’.
I wonder how long it takes the electoral commission to react?

It should be pointed out that The electoral watchdog has been accused of anti-Brexit bias for having raided Nigel Farage's party HQ within hours of Gordon Brown demanding an investigation back in May.

No doubt many will be watching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:49 AM

me too, steve. and also your own post at 5.37


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM

And I fully agree with DMcG's post of 03.10am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:37 AM

"Steve Shaw wrote: Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain"

"And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave."

This is completely skewed. We can't "ignore" the 17 million, because they are getting their way. What they decided impacts leavers and remainers equally. We challenge the referendum result because we see it as illegitimate. We make the argument that the question asked was way too simplistic with regard to the sheer complexity of the issue. We contend that the successful leave campaign was predicated on xenophobia, even using racist material at times, and was essentially a pack of lies and propaganda intended to deceive the large numbers of the electorate who have a tangential transaction only with politics and who are thereby vulnerable to that propagandising. I hasten to add that I don't defend the remain campaign in the slightest, a point which actually reinforces my contention that the referendum was illegitimate. On the other hand, remainers have been told, including on a number of occasions here, that we lost, even that we're losers, our desire to remain will be completely ignored and that we should get over it. I could predict that this post will provoke that response yet again. Losers are easy to ignore. Winners impose their will on winners and losers equally and can't be ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

Interesting survey a couple of days ago
When do you think the UK is most likely to leave the European Union?
On 31st January
10%
Before 31st January
13%
After 31st January
23%
Not at all
22%
Don’t know
32%

I would treat all polls as suspect until the last minute, and even then if percentages are close the outcome cannot be predicted.
The joker in the pack this time is the Brexit party, and perhaps the millar tactical voting site.


I hope Compo's clutch of clots is obliterated. We shall see!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Wot's a compromise between in or out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jFGjC2MpUU
A ghastly thought!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM

Tuck off is of course the famous correction by the more prudish spell checkers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM

And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave.

I never have, Stanron. My preferred outcome is not to leave but I have said from the outset that 17 million people should not be ignored and some sort of compromise is needed. Not only have I been told that "you lost, get over it" but I have been told to tuck off to Poland where I belong, that I am a traitor and that I should be shot. Not by you, Stanron, but that attitude seems prevalent amongst you brave brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:10 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain

And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave.


Brexiteers also ignore what is probably a big chunk of the 17.4 million (perhaps even a majority of it if there was any way of checking.) Many who voted leave wanted a Norway-style deal, as was talked about at the time. They are ignored as well: only the hardest of Brexits or no deal is allowed) That is one of the reasons I try (in vain it must be said) to distinguish Brexiteers from those who voted leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:01 AM

I think given the gravity of the subject and the extension into 2020 another thread is warranted sequential-like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain
And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave.


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