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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Backwoodsman 10 Sep 19 - 01:10 PM
Iains 10 Sep 19 - 04:58 PM
Backwoodsman 10 Sep 19 - 05:28 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Sep 19 - 05:58 PM
peteaberdeen 10 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM
DMcG 11 Sep 19 - 02:32 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 02:56 AM
Iains 11 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM
Rain Dog 11 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM
Iains 11 Sep 19 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 07:16 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Sep 19 - 07:30 AM
Rain Dog 11 Sep 19 - 07:37 AM
Jack Campin 11 Sep 19 - 07:54 AM
Stanron 11 Sep 19 - 07:58 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Sep 19 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 08:22 AM
Rain Dog 11 Sep 19 - 08:44 AM
Iains 11 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 19 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 09:42 AM
DMcG 11 Sep 19 - 10:44 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM
Raggytash 11 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM
Iains 11 Sep 19 - 12:40 PM
DMcG 11 Sep 19 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 19 - 04:33 PM
DMcG 11 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 19 - 05:45 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 19 - 07:45 PM
Iains 12 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM
Iains 12 Sep 19 - 05:08 AM
Iains 12 Sep 19 - 05:42 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Sep 19 - 06:09 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Sep 19 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 19 - 07:04 AM
DMcG 12 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 19 - 08:16 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM
Raggytash 12 Sep 19 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 19 - 11:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Sep 19 - 01:50 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Sep 19 - 02:11 PM
peteaberdeen 12 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 12 Sep 19 - 02:54 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:10 PM

”17 million voted for brexit without knowing what it was, D ;-) “

Yes Dave, but MPs are supposed to be intelligent and rational, whereas.... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:58 PM

”17 million voted for brexit without knowing what it was,
!7.4 million actually. But they knew sufficient to put the x in the right box,
Presumably the losers did not. That is probably why they lost.
No matter what arguments you continue to advance, the fact remains that you lost. I would have thought that after more than three years you would all be aware of that fact by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 05:28 PM

Looks like a terminal Brexit ‘Bump in the Road’ for the Isle of Skye Chocolate Co. pretty sure there will be a lot more small businesses finding themselves in this position once Dom & Dumber have run us over the no-deal cliff-edge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 05:58 PM

The LibDems, nationalist parties and Greens are all united in wanting a referendum and calling for remain. I'm not happy that Labour are keen to get their own deal (yeah, sure...) then have a referendum with no remain policy. We're going to have half the bloody party campaigning against their own deal. A split. It won't do. We need a degree of unity on this among all opposition parties in order to beat the bloody Tories. Priority numero uno. I should like to see Labour solidly in the remain camp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

i'm just back in from my labour party branch meeting - it was really good. we had a long discussion on how to mandate our delegate to conference on the brexit question. we had a range of views, the question is not simple but we were very respectful of *all views and did not argue - or reach a decision . so pretty much typical labour party then.

i say *all but my own suggestion was to say we have left, to change the passports back to dark blue, say a few au revoirs and auf wiedersehns and missing you already. then carry on exactly as before. we remainers could carry on smugly while brexiteers could say 'you remoaners said it would be a disaster and it's not bad at all, losers'

really, how would we know if we had left. or not? everyone is happy


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:32 AM

We will have to see what comes out of the conferences but the current Labour policy to me sounds intellectually and morally sound.. Summering it, we believe in and recommend remain, but if you reject that we are duty bound to offer the best version of leave we can, even though that is not our preference.

Sound.
Moral,

Disastrous as a campaigning message.

I have already had messages from people who are not necessarily on either side who find campaigning against what you have negotiated incomprehensible. It will exploited to the full as if it is confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:56 AM

"Disastrous as a campaigning message."
It seems to me that, whatever happens over leaving Europe, politics are never going to be the same again in British Politics
Johnson and his wrecking gang have more or less wrecked any pretence of democracy now and whatever party replaces him (he can't possibly continue) can forget about taking over as if nothing has happened
What should Labour campaigning on ?
It seems to me that if the UK is to survive, in or out of Europe, its political structures have to be rebuilt

I gave up voting when Blair's mob removed any chance of a better society from Labour's aims - I became interested again when Corbyn became talking about changing society - it seems to me that could be lost by compromising on those changes with a coalition of the same-cold, same old, with the shelving of the ideal that Labour has, or should have stood for

Rather than narrow the gap between haves and have-nots, the loss of investment and yet more British industries has widened it considerably

THe last coalition Ireland's Labour Party entered into set it back decades - I would hate Corbyn to fall into the same trap
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

The Labour Party has shifted position on an election so much that their website currently hosts a page published less than a week ago that says Labour will back an election as soon as their Surrender Bill passed. The bill passed. Not a single Labour MP voted for an election.
The Labour Brexit policy is vaguely reminiscent of three not wise monkeys
Hear no sense
See no sense
Speak nonsense

They have an extensive nationalisation program planned(against EU Law)
They want to commandeer houses and forcibly sell them below market value( I look forward to seeing that one fly as it is in direct conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights as amended by the provisions of Protocol No. 14 (CETS no. 194) as from its entry into force on 1 June 2010)

According to McDonnell Labour has finally come full-circle on their ever-shifting Brexit policy; from respecting the result of the referendum to saying their second referendum will be a choice between no Brexit and Brexit in name only. The next election will be a very stark choice…

How magic grandad expects to win an election when they are all at odds on Brexit totally escapes me. I am sure their party conference will be like an audition for the GOON show, presumably borrowing elements from the Monty Python 'Dead Parrot' sketch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM

Jim Carroll posted on the 9.9.19 in answer to an earlier post of mine

""I personally think that if do have another referendum it will be close again and could go either way."
On what to you base this RD. and how on earth will that solve the problems Brexit has already caused and will continue to cause ?
Do you really believe that the British People are a bunch of lemmings ?
I don't believe they would be so suicidally stupid and if they are we deserve everything we get, but at least it would be a decision taken with some knowledge, which is what democracy entiles us all to"

Why do I think if we had another referendum again it would be close?

I live in the largest European Parliament constituency here in the UK. In the last election Brexit won 4 of the 10 seats with 36.1% of the vote, the Lib Dems were second with 3 seats, 25.7%.

In Kent, where I live, 9 areas they got mid to high 40s percent. 2 areas low 40s and 1 area 51.1 %. There were only 2 areas where they got under 40. Granted it was the usual low turnout but it is only those of us who turn out that get counted.

In the referendum here in Kent, with a turnout over 70%, the vote was near enough 2 to 1 in favour of leaving. Before the referendum I had little doubt that it would be close, going on talking with people locally.

Now when I talk to people about the mess that we are now in, I have yet to come across one leave voter who has changed their mind. I should add that unlike some of you here, I am able to talk in the pubs with leave voters. I always tell them that I voted to remain and have to admit that one or two have given me some strange looks but that was it. Admittedly I did get strange looks before the referendum.

Like I have said, there has always been a number of people who were opposed to us joining the EU and remaining in it. Both parties were split before we joined and also in the 1975 referendum.

Here in Kent, 100s of jobs were lost as a result of us being in the EU, especially after 1993 and the free movement of goods. One of the prime movers for this initiative was a certain Margaret Thatcher.

That is why I think it will be close again.

You and some of your friends here can say that all leave voters are stupid, Nazi, racist people. Some of them may well be but the majority are not.

The language that is used here at times is appalling. You are forever going on about Nazi dictatorships and saying that people should be beheaded. What the hell is that all about? If we met in a pub and you came out with that sort of talk, I would just walk away. You appear at times to display the same traits of the people you disagree with.

You are far too quick to label people racist. You yourself made a comment back on the 7th August which I found unbelievable and insulting to my parents, my cousins and all other Irish people. You should be ashamed of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:20 AM

Nice bit of grandstanding off the Scottish Courts. Totally meaningless finding of course.
We now kick the circus off to the supreme court and after that the ECJ just for added comedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:16 AM

The home Counties - 'the soft underbelly of Britain' is no indication of what will happen elsewhere - it never has been
The hardest hit so far are the Northern Areas, particularly the North East
It would be little less than self harm to continue voting for Brexit up there
Wales voted to leave but the talk among Wesh farmers is of civil unrest if things on the path they are moving
Members of my family, in the North West and on the South Coast voted to leave - they regret it now, especially the one who has a lucrative job involving trips to Italy
Personal experiences such as these are meaningless in the ligh of a now proven disastor course Britain is on
I don't think leavers are stupid - I've recently warned against the error of describing them such
I say they've been lied to, starved of information, and bullied - it would be a very 'stupid' individual to claim otherwise

The racism speaks for itself - from Farage's disgusting poster to the massive spike in racist incidents immediately following the referendum
Britain already had a racist problem - when a right-wing-scum bucket like the Daily Mail publish a nationwide survey indicating that between a quarter and a third of British people hold and have expressed racist opinions you need to look around you with more critical eyes
I know from having lived in three of Britain's major cities how racist Britain is
We even have our own "bogtrotter", "Froggies" and "Traveller thieves and slaveowners" on this forum as examples of the worst of what's happening to the British people   

Good to see YET ANOTHER KICK UP THE ARSE turned into a victory
Things get better and better by the minute
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:30 AM

”You are forever........saying that people should be beheaded.”

Sorry, Raindog, that’s nonsense. I have never seen, or heard, here or anywhere else, a Remainer make death-threats against Leavers. However, Internet forums, FarceBook, and Twatter are littered with examples of Leavers telling Remainers they are ‘Traitors who should be arrested, marched out, and shot at dawn for Treason’, and other expressions to similar effect.

It’s been said to me - both on FarceBook and face-to-face - on a number of occasions. I see just as many, if not more, ‘sore winners’ on the Leave side as I see ‘sore losers’ on the Remain side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:37 AM

"The home Counties - 'the soft underbelly of Britain' is no indication of what will happen elsewhere - it never has been"

Guess it has been quite a while since you were down in Kent then Jim. Like most places there is a mix of people. I am sure that the ex miners of Kent would have had something to say about your comment. Here on the south coast there are quite a few deprived areas

Again you go one about racists? What about your own racist comment about the Irish? Do you repeat that to all your neighbours and expect them to agree with it?

Seems like a few people should be taking medication to treat their hysteria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:54 AM

More on the planned mass murder by medicine shortage.

the Black Dot campaign


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:58 AM

email attachment from my online pharmacist today

https://www.pharmacy2u.co.uk/news/superintendent-pharmacist-phil-day-on-brexit/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:06 AM

Something for the Dom & Dumber devotees to think about...

https://www.facebook.com/276638585821743/posts/1415479091937681?sfns=mo


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:22 AM

"email attachment from my online pharmacist today"
The denials and whataboutism in that e-mail give it an extremely biased aspect Stan.
If "steps have been put into place" to avoid shortages it would have been blazened over every front page in Britain - Brexit would be proudly announcing it in Parliament if he hadn't shut it down
Give us a break - you're nearly as bad as our Guido adherent

"Guess it has been quite a while since you were down in Kent then Jim. "
I have family living on the South coast
Anywhere within reach of London is considered a suburb and is much further from imminent damage that the rest of the country that Thatcher deliberately alienated in her creation of 'Britain's two states'
To a great degree, that has always been the case, which is why I was forced to move from the north nearly half a century ago.

There are now calls to reopen parliament as Johnson's Junta has just recieved yet another kick in the goolies with the Scottish Court's decision
The decision to close it was described as "an attempt to stymie democracy"
Johnson has said he'll appeal of course - why wouldn't he - the taxpayer will foot te bill and the British economy is doing so well it will only have to SACK SOME MEDICAL STAFF to cover the cost
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:44 AM

Jim Carroll posted

"
"Guess it has been quite a while since you were down in Kent then Jim. "
I have family living on the South coast
Anywhere within reach of London is considered a suburb and is much further from imminent damage that the rest of the country that Thatcher deliberately alienated in her creation of 'Britain's two states'
To a great degree, that has always been the case, which is why I was forced to move from the north nearly half a century ago."

Ah I see. As we are in easier reach to London than other areas we don't have any deprivation then?

I told you earlier about the loss of 100s of jobs down here in 1993, directly related to the EU. You ignored that though as usual.

Incidentally why did members of your family vote for Brexit? Are they racists too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

Brexit U-turn: More than a third of Remainers now want EU exit in huge turnaround
A NEW poll has revealed that 35 percent of Remainers now want Brexit to be delivered


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1176414/brexit-latest-news-eu-uk-exit-no-deal-latest-boris-johnson-uk-politics

This will not be well received on this forum by the Enid Blyton Famous Five


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 09:29 AM

I hate to say this, but I'm finding myself agreeing with Tom Watson on strategy. But I really wish he would cut out the serial breaking of rank with Corbyn. Yes, Tom, we know you hate him. But the general idea is to get rid of the bloody Tories, no? Grrr...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 09:42 AM

"Ah I see. As we are in easier reach to London than other areas we don't have any deprivation then?"
Please don't distort what I say - I did not say that, nor do I believe it
Working people everywhere will be hit by the Brexit steamroller , those within the reach of London, where you can usually find half-decent work, even if it's in the 'Black Economy' will be less so that the rest of Britain
" Are they racists too?"
Unfortunately, some of them are
We all grew up in a post Empire Britain where foreigners were to be pitied and exploited becaiuse they were inferior' - we even sang hymns saying just that
I spent enough time with people from abroad - first on the docks in Liverpool, then with refugees and Holocaust survivors in Manchester and finally in gloriously multicultural London - all of which allowed me to form my opinions of hands-on experience
The north of England is just as prone to being used by being told that foreigners were likely to take our jobs, houses and women, wby those who it suits to spread that noxious message

" Are they racists too?"
A drop in the ocean comared to what is being lost br firms pissing off to avoid the damaging effects Brexit
100 obs - there are probably as many firms that have been forced to close already or are thinking of closing because of the uncertain future that has been created
Just wait till when Brits start pouring in from Europe because they can no longer work there
It was estimated that somewhere around 11,000 Brits are claiming dole in Europe   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 10:44 AM

BBC news: Why the Scottiah Court ruling is so significant

There are some Brexiteers who greeted the orignal case with acclaim when they won, and who now say this ruling is unimportant. Not the least of these is Dominic Raab, who as a lawyer should well understand this is a long process with appeal upon appeal, as I said in a post of a few days ago: it is a long game. (Apologies for not referencing the post, but my ability to look this up is hampered by a very limited Internet connection at the moment.)

No one should regard this as settled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 11:12 AM

"No one should regard this as settled."
I go along with this completely Mac, but what I think it shows quite clearly is that the proroguing of parliament has tried democracy and legality to the extreme limits limits
THis has been the case with this ***** referendum from day one
Even though the case failed to come to court, Farage's poster, which was the main influence in winning a vote even he didn't expect to win, skated the edges of Britain's incitement to race hatred laws
Like everything Populism touches, British democracy has now been tainted and made questionable
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Didn't finish
What I just posted is confirmed by Gove's describing Laws passed by Parliament as "a pig in a poke" to be adhered to only when it suits the Government
That is an extremely dangerous attitude for any Government to be allowed to adopt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM

It is rather strange that the party who pride themselves on being "the party of law and order" are so keen to circumvent the law when they don't like it.

Although I realise it is not a done deal yet I was very happy with this mornings ruling.

Whatever happens now this will certainly damage any relationship between Johnson and the Queen, if they actually had one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 12:40 PM

Scottish law may run writ in Scotland. English Law runs writ in England.
The scottish judges decision is merely grandstanding and had no meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 01:02 PM

Whatever else this Scottish legal opinion does, it has greatly strengthened those who argue for Scottish Independence. Even more so if the Supreme court reverses the decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 01:26 PM

Y'knoww folks - could have sworn Brexit was about the UK - not Britain leaving Europe
You learn something every day, don't you
More Brhysterincal knee -jerk I suspect
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 01:41 PM

If the appeal next week is successful every prediction of the destructive nature of Brexit will have been confirmed
It will set England and Scotland in direct legal conflict with each other and will mean there is no basis for maintaining the UK - certainly if England is given a free hand to make laws that are in opposition to those in Scotlad
Full house for remaining in Europe, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Just musing (probably an "am in front of thet more descriptive) this latest farce of events
If someone points out that Northern Ireland and Scotland chose to remain in the EU, these clowns line up to point out the both are part of the UK and subject to a wafer-thin majority (by those who voted) decision, whether its suits the Irish and the scots or doesn't
When it comes to the law governing how our democracy operates, "English Law Eules Rules, OK)
No wonder the world is pissing itself laughing at these antics
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 04:33 PM

The Supreme Court will not endorse today's ruling. Listen to Jonathan Sumption, the ex-Supreme Court judge. He hates what Johnson has done but can't see illegality, unfortunately. I've always found his opinions to be incredibly measured. I'll be amazed if I'm wrong. It'll be around two weeks before we hear the Supreme Court's decision. The only thing that really matters now about the prorogation is that we use it to demonstrate Johnson's utter dishonesty and sense of Etonian entitlement. It will work to his disadvantage in any case. Already has, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM

I will wait for the ruling. The documents the Scottish courts had were not available before. Nor anything that may be revealed by the humble address.

You could easily be right, Steve, but it may not be clear cut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:45 PM

Not only that, the release of the Yellowhammer papers reveals not only the panic in government circles about no deal but also the lying nature of this administration. They told us that the previous leak, which had a policeman marching an innocent adviser out of Downing Street, was out of date. It wasn't. What came out tonight is virtually the same. Shocking dishonesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:45 PM

"Shocking dishonesty."
And far more likely to happen than was claimed was the case
Delays at ports - weeks long, shortage of medical goods immediate, food shotages, wage cuts, public disorder....
They have been caught deliberately lying to the electorate they claim to be working on behalf of
Despte this, they still refuse to release the full documents they have been ordered to make public
If it looks like a coup. if it goosesteps like a coup - it's probably a coup to overthrow Parliamentary democracy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM

The outcome of the Supreme court judgement will revolve entirely around what fresh material may be uncovered by the enforced release of material by the Parliamentary request. I doubt any private communications will be released as this would be in breach of EU law on data protection.
The Independent sets it out thus:
Only a summary of the Scottish Court’s reasoning has been released, with the full judgment to follow on Friday. Meanwhile the High Court in London has today released its reasons for rejecting Gina Miller and John Major’s legal challenge to prorogation. Its judgment is a powerful restatement of the orthodox legal view, and firmly and rightly rejects the constitutionally dubious argument that parliamentary sovereignty permits or requires the courts ‘to exercise hitherto unidentified power over the Executive branch of the state in its dealings with Parliament.’ The circumstances and reasons for proroguing Parliament are for the Government to decide.

The Government is bound by law in Scotland and Northern Ireland, just as much as in England and Wales, which is partly why litigation was commenced in all three places. It will now be for the Supreme Court, which hears an appeal on Tuesday, to decide whether the advice to prorogue Parliament is for the courts to decide and, if it is, whether Tuesday’s prorogation was unlawful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:08 AM

It is axiomatic that Democracy can only function when the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary remain entirely independent of one another.

Very clearly these lines have been blurred in recent weeks by unscrupulous MPs usurping the role of the executive and involving the Judiciary in decisions that rightly are the remit of the executive.
A partisan speaker has colluded with the executive opposition to enable these outrages to occur.
    Remainiacs may find it very amusing to be scoring all these supposed goals but the law of unintended consequences may well create innumerable own goals in the future besides creating havoc within our unwritten constitution.
    Erskine May was written for a time when MPs had honour and integrity. The need for a written Constitution becomes more compelling by the day.

This is not a new problem. Oliver Cromwell had it in a nutshell:
It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:42 AM

A stunning article in the Express today:
Diplomats and officials are “tearing their hair out” at the prospect Jeremy Corbyn winning the keys to Downing Street amid political chaos in London. They simply can’t understand why Labour have pledged to negotiate a “credible” Brexit deal with Brussels before campaigning against it in a referendum. Brussels sources also revealed they regret forming tactical alliances with Remain campaigners during the Brexit negotiations.


“They want us to negotiate a ‘credible’ deal and then they will campaign against it in a referendum? That is mad,” an EU source told the Times.

“How can we negotiate with people like that? Their divisions and magical thinking are as bad as anything the Conservatives produced – perhaps worse.”

Luvvin it !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:09 AM

What was the redacted section 15 about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:20 AM

it is disturbing that the Yellowhammer report talks about minimising the number of people impacted. So, who has decided that they have to god=given right to determine which of us will be impacted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:04 AM

"about minimising the number of people impacted. "
Which is an admission of the contents of this document which was claimed to be "out of date"
This is now serial lying to the people

"What was the redacted section 15 about?"
It is claimed to be about the details of why these pricks closed down Parliament
Again, doing so was claimed to be standard practice and nothing out of the ordinary - obviously a can of worms they don't wish to open
They'll probably send it to Croydon, where it will be "disappeared" as were the 'Windrush' documents
These people are OUTBLAIRING TORY BLUR
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM

The best way of guessing what the redacted section about - short of getting the original - is to compare it to the leaked version. However, I have been unable to find a copy of that; just articles derived from it that do not preserve that level of detail. Of course most searches now show the latest version. If anyone has access to the full leaked version, or a link to it, I would be grateful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 08:16 AM

I was under tehe impression that Yellowhammer had not been edited - what has not ben released is the correspondence and records of the discussion regarding redaction
May have this wrong - it's pretty difficult to keep up with this farce
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM

EU: Backstop stays. End of.

Johnson: No backstop. End of.

EU: Northern Ireland-only backstop will be OK with us.

Johnson: Over my dead body.

Johnson: I'm full of good ideas about a deal.

EU: not a dickie bird from Johnson about his good ideas have we heard.

Johnson: we're leaving at Halloween, even with no deal.

Rest of the world: Oh yeah? How's that work then, Bozza?


Every morning I wake up thinking, nah, it's not real. But every time I find out that it's real all right. Are we actually paying this man wages?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 11:18 AM

Apparently Defra has refused to disclose details of potential disruption to food supplies saying there was a "strong public interest" in keeping the information secret.

What!!!!

Could someone please link to the article in the Guardian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 11:32 AM

SEEING IS BELIEVING
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 01:50 PM

While some on Mudcat continue to bleat about hard done by the valiant brexiteers are, the death threats to their opponents continue.

They say you can tell a man by the company he keeps. When was the last time there was a death threat made by the remain factions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:11 PM

Well I, for one, am not surprised in the slightest. However much the passive/aggressive victim-wannabes on the Leave side whine about ‘insults’ and ‘abuse’, Leavers resort just as frequently to that kind of behaviour, and my experience is that making death-threats is very much their domain. Never heard of a Remainer telling a Leaver they ‘should be arrested, marched out, and shot at dawn for treason’, but I’ve seen plenty of instances of Leavers telling Remainers precisely that.

Glasshouses, stones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

i'm struggling at work just now . i am a remainer with 2 children working on the mainland. i would stand up against racism anyway but with our children's (we have 5) friends and partners being from all over i feel i must stand up and could have a daily argument with the racists and ukip 'tommy robinson types. of course, i have become used to it around town and in the pubs and have to suffer people assuming their racism and brexit nonsense is 'how it is round here' but it is horrible to be called a traitor or 'hear 'you are going to end up in hospital saying stuff like that' when i questioned the ethics of a shop near us selling nazi memorabilia i was told 'i'll fucking kill you if i see you anywhere near my shop again' So , for me, it's a daily problem and not just a controversy in the press. i was going to stand for council but decided not to as i'm scared to be more visible here - especially as 10 ex bnp/edl types have recently been elected to our local council. our house is for sale - we want to move to scotland or lancaster. it's tragic what has happened to england - we are decent people are regularly bshouted down by the bigotry and aggression of the tories and their far right followers. in what sort of world would the likes of nigel farage or mogg or johnson have any sort of influence in a modern democracy? anyone else remember the opening ceremony of the london olympics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

I am determined that it should never be forgotten that Jo Cox was the first victim of Brexit
I feel the same about the memory of Blair Peach for a different reason, but racism played a part in both
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:54 PM

Dame Caroline Spelman is on record as saying she has been driven out of politics altogether due to abuse and death threats.

Regarding the blanked-out Item 15, Rosamund Urwin, senior reporter at the Sunday Times, tweeted the redacted content yesterday, which she got from her original leaked copy, received in August. It's in her Twitter feed:

- - -

@RosamundUrwin

So lots of people asking what the redacted part is... Here goes:

What's different about the new Yellowhammer document that the government has just published compared with the one I got hold of last month? The heading.
What did the version I had say? BASE SCENARIO
Now what does the new one say? HMG Reasonable Worst Case Planning Assumptions

15. "Facing EU tariffs makes petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability but UK Government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans." [More to come]

"This leads to significant financial losses and announcement of two refinery closures (and transition to import terminals) and direct job losses (about 2000). (2/3)

Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions directly supplied by the refineries." (3/3)

https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1171872961944571905


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