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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Big Al Whittle 31 May 19 - 09:47 PM
Backwoodsman 31 May 19 - 12:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 19 - 12:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 19 - 12:22 PM
Backwoodsman 31 May 19 - 10:09 AM
David Carter (UK) 31 May 19 - 08:41 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 08:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 19 - 08:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 19 - 08:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 May 19 - 07:38 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 07:22 AM
Iains 31 May 19 - 07:18 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 07:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 19 - 07:03 AM
Iains 31 May 19 - 05:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 19 - 05:02 AM
Iains 31 May 19 - 04:42 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 04:36 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 04:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 19 - 04:15 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 04:02 AM
Iains 31 May 19 - 04:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 19 - 03:51 AM
Iains 31 May 19 - 03:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 19 - 02:51 AM
DMcG 31 May 19 - 02:08 AM
Backwoodsman 31 May 19 - 01:59 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 19 - 11:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 19 - 09:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 19 - 07:01 PM
DMcG 30 May 19 - 05:38 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 May 19 - 05:13 PM
DMcG 30 May 19 - 04:17 PM
DMcG 30 May 19 - 04:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 19 - 03:28 PM
Iains 30 May 19 - 03:21 PM
David Carter (UK) 30 May 19 - 03:16 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 19 - 03:09 PM
David Carter (UK) 30 May 19 - 02:14 PM
Iains 30 May 19 - 01:28 PM
Mossback 30 May 19 - 01:15 PM
DMcG 30 May 19 - 12:45 PM
Iains 30 May 19 - 12:14 PM
Iains 30 May 19 - 04:59 AM
DMcG 30 May 19 - 03:27 AM
Iains 30 May 19 - 02:56 AM
DMcG 30 May 19 - 02:29 AM
Iains 29 May 19 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 19 - 06:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 19 - 05:58 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 09:47 PM

I don't think you can have it both ways.

Let us say you are right - a no deal Brexit will raise many problems. Driving over a cliff. Walking into lamp post. Poor Elton John is consumed with shame with his fellow Englishmen.

The land prey tp pestilence and famine.

Well if that is the case, you can't really make plans and policies, if things are going to be as bad as that.

So why do it?

Well I suppose, yes its that important. I think we're at a table where the game is rigged, and we need to walk away.

Donald Trump has been criticised for his measures towards Mexico, but I think he has a point. If you want to to sell your goods to a country - you should not be pursuing policies which will affect the prosperity of that country. You can't treat a trading partner like a milk cow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 19 - 12:28 PM

No problemo, senor!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 12:23 PM

A- ha! Many thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 12:22 PM

Thankyou for help. BWM. If I find that number of the total number of posts I will let you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 19 - 10:09 AM

”i dunno if its just my cheap computer but i keep flying past the message i want to see. its so long this thread that my computer can't cope with it.”

Al, if you click on the number showing the total number of posts instead of clicking on the thread title, the thread will open in ‘pages’. If you then click on the highest bracketed Page no. at the top, it will take you to the most recent posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:41 AM

Democracy is voting, sovereignty depends upon who is talking. I don't have any less sovereignty if I am answering to someone in Brussels, than if it is someone in London.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:27 AM

Really? "The price of democracy and the price of sovereignty is high. People have died for this.
The economics of this sometimes isn't as important as the principle of it" is not suggesting we will pay a price?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:20 AM

You have the right initials, Nigel. What else do you think NP could stand for? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:14 AM

i dunno if its just my cheap computer but i keep flying past the message i want to see. its so long this thread that my computer can't cope with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:38 AM

That link is scary, DMcG. When even the brexit part are saying leaving will hurt the UK economy for 30 years we begin to see why no one on here has come up with any good news yet.
Assuming you mean the Lucy Harris link.
To paraphrase she says Brexit at any cost, and answering points being made by several persons:
Campbell then asked Harris to try and elaborate on her comment and it wouldn't exactly fill your heart with hope and prosperity, even if you were the most staunch of Brexiteers.
Well...I don't...I mean...are you looking for a number...or?
I think short term there will be an effect on the economy. Short-term yes.
Campbell:
How long is short term?
Harris?
How long is short term? I don't know. The next 30 years?
I think short term there will be some effects on it
.
A flabbergasted Campbell seemed shocked that she would predict such an extensive length of time, who quickly figured out that things wouldn't start to get better until three years before his 90th birthday.
Harris replied again:
The price of democracy and the price of sovereignty is high. People have died for this.
The economics of this sometimes isn't as important as the principle of it.


Assuming she was giving her honest answers to the points being put, there is a distinct lack of any comment that there would be 30 years of negative effects. Clearly we have taken over 40 years becoming entangled with EU. Getting clear of that influence will also take time.

The transcript certainly reads as if the presenter is not being impartial, but siding with the two pro-EU activists Femi Oluwole and Madeleina Kay against the single pro-Brexit spokesman.


The Independent does make one comment (before the transcript starts) which appears even handed:
During an appearance on BBC Radio 5 Live, Lucy Harris a member of the Brexit Party who is running in the European Elections in Yorkshire and Humber claimed that we might not see any benefits for another 30 years.

That is quite different from predicting 30 years of doom & gloom, but clearly a paragraph (encapsulating what the quotes actually say) which will be ignored by Remainers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:22 AM

That might come across as more aggressive than I intended. Let's try again. I presume you are at least willing to accept no deal. Certainly many Brexit supporters are. But there are even varieties of no-deal. For example, a large number of fridges, we are told, have been bought to stockpile medicines to prevent a shortage in the event of no-deal. Grayling, for all his incompetence, appears to have tried to arrange alternative transportation for goods in the event of no deal.

So you can have a no deal, while simultaneously trying to identify risks in it and then taking steps to minimise those risks.

At the other extreme, is no-deal with no attempt to mitigate any effects at all. And in between are thousands of variations depending on what you see as risks and how great you assess them to be.

While my personal opinion is of course that remain would be better, I do not regard anyone who wants no deal and is prepared to assess the risks and then act to mitigate them as stupid. And fully own the consequences of Brexit, good or bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:18 AM

The Brexit party have concentrated on Brexit. They are focused, unlike Labour with their ridiculous campaign poster in Peterborough emphasizing law and order in a campaign caused by the dismissal of a criminal labour Mp. (To steal a phrase: You could not make it up!)
When the two "has-been" parties are forced into an election, then is the time for a slick party manifesto. Unlike the career politician amateurs in the other parties Brexit will have candidates with real world experience, honed in the cut and thrust of business, bringing a level of professionalism their opponents can only drool over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:07 AM

well if you're correct and the brexit party have said nothing of their intentions ...

I am quite happy if you correct me, Al. Can you detail some of their stated intentions apart from leaving the EU?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:03 AM

well if you're correct and thehe brexit party have said nothing of their intentions...what a story it tells of disillusion with the two main parties.

cue for Corbyn fans to blame the wicked media....

This is it though, we ordinary people are so stupid, Keep on telling us that. It will really get us on your side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 05:35 AM

Betting odds sky news for Peterborough


Brexit Party 2/9
Labour         7/2
Liberal Democrats 22/1
Conservatives         25/1
Greens         100/1
UKIP         100/1

Realistically a 2 horse race if the odds are correct. We shall see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 05:02 AM

That link is scary, DMcG. When even the brexit part are saying leaving will hurt the UK economy for 30 years we begin to see why no one on here has come up with any good news yet.

Still, I suppose when we get are cuntry back we will have unlimited wealth, good weather all year round and unicorns in every garden. It will all be worthwhile. Shame no one on here will be about to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:42 AM

Big Al
Mathermagic is the secret weapon of remainers. With all these threatened shortages in a post brexit world I cannot see why they worry. Ample precedent has been set with loaves and fishes!

As an aside George Galloway has announced he will seek advice to launch legal action against Alastair Campbell over his alleged "misconduct in public office" during the run-up to the Iraq War.

Who will take aim at the Bliar I wonder?
Are the floodgates about to open?

These remainer wrecking tactics have a potential to backfire in a spectacular fashion.

I must study the futures market in popcorn!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:36 AM

Having just checked The Electoral Calculus prediction for Peterborough, they put Labour with the highest chance, then Tory, with LibDem and Brexit party in the doldrums. I think that is wrong - Farage will certainly be doing his damnedest to get the Brexit party as high as possible, and the more he succeeds in that, the stronger the anti-Brexit response will be, which will primarily help the LibDems. And neither Labour nor Conservatives are being too convincing at the moment.

We will just have to wait and see how it plays out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:28 AM

I would not be in the least surprised if the Brexit Party candidate won in Peterborough. But nor would I be surprised if the LibDems won. I would be surprised if anyone else did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:15 AM

what if Boris is found innocent and five million people sign a petition saying he's guilty....

another crushing victory for the remainers...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:02 AM

That 22% of the population is prepared to vote for a party which gives no information on what it would try to do in power apart from leaving the EU, which some of their party say might take 30 years to recover from ( Lucy Harris, Brexit party) is hardly 'spiffing'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:01 AM

Brexit party goes for the jugular in the upcoming bye election for the seat of disgraced Ex-Labour MP Fiona Onasanya.

Distinct lack of joined up thinking by Labour. Why bring up law and order as the party wicket when their own representative's contempt for same created the need for the election?            DUUUUUUUUUUUH!!!!!!



brexit 10 Labour nil


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 03:51 AM

It's a shame Rory Stewart is behind the baboon and the viper in the leadership race.


An honest Tory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 03:26 AM

Simply spiffing news!

Yougov poll with a choice of

Con
Lab
Lib
Other.

LibDem poll 24%
Brexit poll 22%
Tory poll 18%
Labour poll 18%
UKIP poll 2%
CHUK poll 2%

Deliberately play down Brexit by classing them as other yet they come number 2.

The pundits claimed brexit would fade after the EU elections. I think not!

and for some icing on the cake:
Tory second referendum campaigner Phillip Lee is facing the music at a Special General Meeting of Bracknell Conservative Association this Saturday morning, they will vote on a no confidence motion in him.

He may be as slippery as cat sh*t on linoleum, but I doubt he will slither out of this little contretemps


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 02:51 AM

I see the CBI have now thrown their cap in the ring.

Business lobby group CBI warns Tories over no-deal Brexit

Any good news yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 02:08 AM

I am not attributing honesty to either side, Al. Both sides lied on some occasions and told the truth on some occasions. That is no reason to overlook an influencial lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 19 - 01:59 AM

The Brexshiteers don’t want to see it, Steve - confirmation bias - so they continue, not only to ‘justify’ the Leave lies, but also to continue to push them.

Fortunately, some of us have very long memories and working brains, capable of original thought and resisting bullshit and bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 19 - 11:34 PM

If you say that we give the EU £350 million a week without saying that we get much of that straight back, and you know it, in order to make your case that we give the EU a lot of money, you are being deliberately misleading and you are lying by omission. I honestly can't see why that isn't crystal clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 19 - 09:12 PM

Do we run the trial again if we don't get the verdict we want....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 19 - 07:01 PM

I think it would be a mistake ro attribute honesty to anyone in this fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 05:38 PM

I am happy for the court to examine the matter. We have, in my opinion, covered all the relevant points about the bus many times so I don't see this advancing until we can react to whatever the court gives its view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 19 - 05:13 PM

Yes, the previous post was from me. I'll state it again just in case it gets deleted as a 'Guest' post in BS: I was signed in when I started typing. [It got deleted. Thanks for re-posting it. -Mod]

As I pointed out back in 2017, when this matter was last raised, the figure of £350m was an official figure (Although a gross rather than net figure) provided by the UK Statistics Authority. They wrote to Boris, complaining that he was misusing official figures. The wording makes clear that it was an official figure.
In his letter, Sir David once again repeated the explanation that the £350m statistic relates only to what the UK currently pays to the EU, and does not include the money that Britain receives in return.
(the above)From: The Independent
The side of the "Boris Bus" said "We send the EU £350 million a week"
Apart from the comment differentiating between net & gross, David Norgrove's comment is the same as the bus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 04:17 PM

Let me illustrate that with an example which does not involve Brexit. Two salesmen go along to a company and try to sell them a product. The potential purchaser is reluctant: he is not at all confident he can get the funds, or that it will really that beneficial to his company, and anyway they have found something maybe as good but a little cheaper from elsewhere.

Each salesman reports back. The former says they seemed quite reluctant and not at all promising and estimates 10% chance of getting the sale. The second salesman reports back that they were wildly enthusiastic, and were begging to get the product ASAP. He estimates 90% or better chance of the sale coming off.

Surely it is obvious the first is speaking in good faith and the second is lying? And that that is what is taking place, irrespective of whether the company does buy the product or not in the end?

Nothing academic about it, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 04:02 PM


I'm no defender of boris, but the difference saying something misleading and unrealistic and outright lying seems a bit academic


Not at all. It is all about whether statements and predictions were made in good faith and believed at the time they were made, or were made knowing full well they were not. Whether a prediction turned out to be accurate in the end is different from whether it was made in good faith at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:28 PM

I'm no defender of boris, but the difference saying something misleading and unrealistic and outright lying seems abit academic. Is the bus the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:21 PM

Good to see remainiacs applying the same sleight of hand that emanates from the abbaccus school of mathermagic. Was Hogwarts their alma mater?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:16 PM

Why to you think that those predictions were unrealistic Steve? We don't know yet, if we ever will. I would suggest that George Osborne's predictions of the hit that the average family would/will take might have been a touch short of reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:09 PM

The remain campaign undoubtedly made misleading and unrealistic PREDICTIONS about the post-Brexit world. Political campaigning is predicated on predictions and it's up to an educated electorate (or should be) to distinguish between realistic projections and far-fetched extrapolations based on ideological bullshit. That's the name of the game and 'twas ever thus. What Johnson did was to tell a deliberate lie, which he painted on the side of a bus. It was a lie and he knew it was a lie. That was no prediction. It was a stated false fact, writ large. Defenders of Boris appear not to be able to tell the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 19 - 02:14 PM

There is a difference between a promise which is not kept, and a downright lie on matters of fact. Boris is bang to rights. The maximum sentence for misconduct in public office is life imprisonment. And may I recommend Walton Gaol, Liverpool. And when he goes in, every single prisoner should be given a copy of this article. Pick up the soap, Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 01:28 PM

Should the politically motivated court case against BORIS have merit, I have no doubt absolute clarity will be given to both interpretations.
The Crown Prosecution Service could throw it out right now. I suspect had a remainer been accused the result would be no case to answer and produced faster than you could say timmy robinson.
It is a dangerous path when the judiciary show political leanings, as it is when the speaker is no longer impartial, as it is when a convicted criminal is given a ridiculously abbreviated sentence and thereby allowed a casting vote on crucial legislation.
The EU, I notice, has no qualms in banning the duly elected Catalan MEP from taking his seat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 30 May 19 - 01:15 PM

He, and they, understand perfectly well.

They just don't give a shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 12:45 PM

I am afraid, Iains, you are just demonstrating that you and whoever made that video do not understand the difference between being incorrect and lying. But relax: I am not about to repeat the monologue my wife had to sit through.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 12:14 PM

Brexit Betrayal from their own words

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcmebRH904

If Boris is convicted we might need to refurbish the Tower for multiple long term residency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 04:59 AM

You realise that all MPs that signed up for article 50 and stood for election on a leave ticket would be open for challenge, as would May's inveterate lies about brexit, not to mention dodgy dossiers and possible war criminal charges. We could of course add all the remainer false claims about instant interest rate rises, the economy tanking etc stc.
All deliberate misrepresentations.
Could be some rather nasty unintended consequences from such actions.
Be careful what you wish for!

From your perspective it could be argued brexit has occurred by default because of endless lies enabling postponement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:27 AM

My wife was subjected to a tedious lecture by me yesterday on the differences between truth value, lying and rhetoric. The third is the natural ground of politicians and is about persuasion, rather than about whether things are true or not, or whether they are misrepresentations of the truth intended to deceive. She is long-suffering, I am afraid.

I think making politicians challengeable on whether they are deliberately misrepresenting something in order to deceive is no bad thing and falls a long short of destroying democracy. Without is we are really in the world of 'who shouts louder', which is a far greater threat to democracy in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 02:56 AM

An interesting bit on the chappie crowdfunding the court case accusing Boris of lying:

The man behind the case to prosecute Boris Johnson has been saying his case is not about stopping Brexit, just about stopping 'lying in politics'. That will come as news to the original backers of Marcus J. Ball's first (now deleted) crowdfunder which was set up from "within a Facebook group called The 48%" in order to reverse the result of the referendum.

"Once these prosecutions have established that politicians did indeed lie to voters our next step will be to take other action to prevent Brexit. This may be in the form of a judicial review… We will also work to reverse Brexit and ensure our membership of the European Union is not lost"

Ball deleted his original blogs, seemingly to hide his original intentions and then launched a new site claiming that he was "motivated by a desire to challenge the national problem of lying in UK politics." In late 2018 a new 'Brexit Justice Prosecution' page was launched, a new financial target established, and new Twitter and Facebook profiles were set up as old ones are deleted. The old 'Brexit Justice' Page now reroutes to the new page, with all references to Ball's political views removed. (what a sneaky fellow he is!)

What started as an attempt to prosecute the Leave campaign turned into a campaign against the man who led it, which if successful would have hugely destructive consequences over our democracy, enforcing government regulation of political speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 02:29 AM

The idea of a parallel currency that Italy is raising is remarkably similar in some ways to Brexit. Yes, you can run a campaign to convince people it is a good idea, and they can vote for it and perhaps win it. Or, as a government you can introduce it with the persuasion but without having a vote (at a somewhat greater risk to your personal future if it all goes bad.) But if you do introduce it, you get the whole package. You don't get to choose the bits you like and reject the bits you don't.

I visited Madagascar a few years ago and it uses a curreny called the 'ariary'. At the moment, 1 arity = 0.00022 pounds sterling. When I left, I came home with around £25 worth of currency. It is a wad of notes about 3cm thick. It is a perfectly useful currency for internal trading - paying for a hotel room, for example - but try to buy any foreign goods - a can of coke, rather than the local version for example - and it has very little value at all. Try and buy arity before you go to the country and it is unheard of - the banks don't even recognise it. (While India won't allow the banks to buy and sell their currency, at least the banks know it exists.)

So Italy can introduce a parallel currency if it likes, and hope to get some advantages out of it. But, whether they like it or not they would also get any disadvantages that come with it. And primarily they would probably turn out to be huge difficulties of trading with other countries, in or out of the EU, because it is those countries that decide on the value to attach to the parallel currency. And it could turn out to be virtually none.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 19 - 06:34 PM

Potentially even more damaging events are coming to the fore in the Euro wonderland. Italy is threatening to play hardball !


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/05/29/epic-clash-building-italys-triumphant-salvini-brussels/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 19 - 06:05 PM

Don't worry about Boris. The establishment will look after him. The big guns are already out. As for Portillo, well his railway programmes are very nice. But his true colours all too frequently show through on the Thursday night Andrew Neil programme. Deep down, he's a dyed-in-the-wool unreconstructed right-wing Tory. A leopard who can't change his spots. A wolf in sheep's clothing. The iron behind the velvet. Choose your own metaphor. Know thine enemy. Thine enemy is any Tory, and he's one of the unthinking worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 19 - 05:58 PM

its all a bit reminiscent of when everyone was predicting the SDP was going to be the biggest party in parliament. Thatcher was a bastard and Foot/Kinnock unelectable. So people were going to vote SDP.

Then there was the Falklands and . And everyone went back to voting Tory/Labour.

it was personality led that time too. And to be honest ... i didn't like the personalities then either.


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