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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Raggytash 04 Jul 19 - 01:54 PM
Iains 04 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM
peteaberdeen 04 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM
David Carter (UK) 02 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM
David Carter (UK) 02 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM
peteaberdeen 02 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM
Mossback 02 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM
David Carter (UK) 02 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM
Iains 01 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM
Raggytash 01 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM
Iains 01 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM
DMcG 01 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM
Raggytash 01 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jul 19 - 07:07 AM
Iains 01 Jul 19 - 07:02 AM
Raggytash 01 Jul 19 - 06:23 AM
Iains 01 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Jul 19 - 04:25 AM
DMcG 01 Jul 19 - 03:54 AM
DMcG 01 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Jul 19 - 02:39 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Jul 19 - 02:37 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 19 - 07:46 PM
DMcG 30 Jun 19 - 06:05 PM
Iains 30 Jun 19 - 04:11 PM
David Carter (UK) 30 Jun 19 - 02:06 PM
DMcG 30 Jun 19 - 01:43 PM
Iains 30 Jun 19 - 01:10 PM
David Carter (UK) 30 Jun 19 - 12:17 PM
Stanron 30 Jun 19 - 12:10 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jun 19 - 11:44 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 Jun 19 - 10:31 AM
DMcG 30 Jun 19 - 07:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jun 19 - 07:55 AM
Stanron 30 Jun 19 - 06:54 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 Jun 19 - 06:30 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jun 19 - 04:52 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jun 19 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 30 Jun 19 - 04:25 AM
Raggytash 30 Jun 19 - 04:00 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 Jun 19 - 03:57 AM
DMcG 30 Jun 19 - 02:23 AM
DMcG 30 Jun 19 - 02:19 AM
Iains 29 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM
Raggytash 27 Jun 19 - 04:31 PM
DMcG 27 Jun 19 - 02:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 19 - 02:35 PM
Iains 27 Jun 19 - 02:25 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:54 PM

What a sad case gentlemen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM

The High Court has issued its final judgment on Boris and the bus and it makes many telling arguments against the laddie that tried to prosecute Boris. It starts by stating the magistrate should have quashed the attempt. The wheels were off this particular bus before the journey even started.
The full text brought to you via that excellent purveyor of accurate reporting MR Guido Fawkes:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2019ewhc-1709-admin-johnson-v-westminster-mags-final.pdf
The judgement totally destroys the arguments on here submitted by the lefties and Boris has his reputation as a fine fellow restored, all buffed up and shiny again. A spiffing summary from the judiciary.
Will Halloween bring us Samhein and the attendance of the ghosts ofBrexit past or Brexit future? Will it be the beginning of a winter of discontent for valiant brexiteers or remainiacs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

i've just watched a film of a brexiteer MEP haranguing the parliament - comparing them to slave owners and such. also claiming to speak for britain. this brexit is far worse than futile = its ridiculous, deeply damaging and very embarrassing. they have no shame and no understanding that the fundamentalist no deal they crave would only represent at most a quarter of the views of our more aged and more closed-minded little englanders. sadly - this seems to include both the PM contenders. who will save us all from these eejits?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

This is a blog I read quite often, because I share a profession with the blogger, or did before I retired. Quite stunning similarity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM

There are people around still fighting WWII in their own minds. Even though they were born years after it ended. And they seem to have forgotten that most of the French and the Polish were on our side. Its lunacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM

Brexit Party - a futile gesture?

...and childish and embarrassing. Are there really people around who see the EU as our enemy? you can negotiate a deal beneficial to both parties if you remain on good terms. Or just remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM

And childish into the bargain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM

I never sing during the national anthem. I never sing during anything. Anyone who ever heard me singing would know why.

But I would not turn my back on the national anthem, even of a country whose policies I profoundly disagreed with.

So "shameful, ignorant, disrespectful scrotes" is about the least you could say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM

Brexit Party {{puke}} turned their backs on the playing of the EU Anthem - Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’ - at the opening ceremony of the EU Parliament this morning.

Shameful, ignorant, disrespectful scrotes.

I won’t wait for howls of protest from the mob who bayed for Corbyn’s blood when he didn’t sing during the U.K. Anthem, even though he demonstrated respect by standing when it was played.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM

My time is far far too valuable to waste making futile attempts to cure other's peccadilloes.
Meanwhile:Jeremy Hunt has just given a speech on ‘No Deal’ preparations at Policy Exchange, setting out his ten point plan to leave. It is well known that Hunt campaigned for remaining in the EU in 2016, Hunt now says he accepts the outcome of the referendum and Brexit must be done. Today he is going further and says he wants to ramp up planning for no deal, yet even over the course of the last few months, he has repeatedly hit out at ‘No Deal’
Politician speak with forked tongue? Surely that cannot be so! Anything to get elected. Although I would say if Hunt is elected massive defections will occur to the Brexit party. With Boris this is less likely. Either way my runes suggest a General Electon is in the offing. On current polling the outcome of that is far from certain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM

Yet another example of "oh look over there" Iains, frankly a disgrace.

I am not anyone's keeper, if you have a problem with someone's post please address that person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM

John Seymour (12 June 1914 – 14 September 2004) was a prolific early author in the self-sufficiency movement. He had multiple roles as a writer, broadcaster, environmentalist, agrarian, smallholder and activist; a rebel against: consumerism, industrialisation, genetically modified organisms, cities, motor cars; an advocate for: self-reliance, personal responsibility, self-sufficiency, conviviality (food, drink, dancing and singing), gardening, caring for the Earth and for the soil.
I can think of instances in his books where he would be liable for prosecution for the illegal burial of waste and possible contamination of water courses, although he masqueraded as an ecoloon. Having Q A'd
landfill sites all over the UK from initial construction phase to capping and subsequent gas gathering installations I take a keen professional interest in waste disposal.
Ragwort your time would be better spent instructing your little mate in the construction of links. It would help us separate fact from whimsy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM

And that the farmer who owns the fields, who probably voted leave like most farmers, receives massive EU subsidies. Crazy world, innit.

And who Hunt is now promising to insulate from their decision by making everyone donate a good part of £6billion to them. Ditto for fishermen.

Crazy world indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM

It is considered normal, at least amongst intelligent people, to place quotation marks around a quote and provide a source.

I presume you had an education, despite the limited evidence, and had you not used quotation marks and provided a source your work would be marked down. You may even be accused of plagiarism.

So no change there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:07 AM

Er, John Seymour was involved in agriculture for most of his life, actually, including long spells spent as a sheep farm manager in Africa, a smallholder-farmer in the UK, then later owning and working a farm in Wales and then in Ireland. Like lots of farmers do these days, he found ways of supplementing his income, largely in his case by writing. But before that he showed that it was possible to be self-sufficient on a five-acre parcel of land via good husbandry and diversity and by farming organically before it became fashionable. Others do B&B and holiday cottages, or stable horses, or make cheese, or open up farm shops or cafes. To suggest that he was not a farmer is utterly laughable. However, glad to see that you confirmed in your mind that around half of our barley production is fit only for animal feed. When you marvel at the fields of waving barley this month, reflect on the outrage underlying many of them that's hidden from view. And that the farmer who owns the fields, who probably voted leave like most farmers, receives massive EU subsidies. Crazy world, innit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:02 AM

I am sure if you disputed the facts you would use google. Why should I link, others have no need to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:23 AM

No quotation marks there Iains or reference to your source. Very poor could do better 4/10.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM

Seymour may have been a self styled self sufficiency guru, but farmer he was not. He made his money from writing. Real farmers make their money from farming. This dictates they use techniques to maximise growth and hence returns.
   If they did not you would likely starve.


Barley is the second largest arable crop in the UK (after wheat). It remains an important cereal because of its ability to survive in cold and wet conditions, so although it is grown throughout most of the UK, in the north, where growing conditions are most difficult for wheat, it is often the dominant arable crop.

Of the 6.5 million tonnes produced in the UK each year approximately 2 million tonnes are malted by the brewing and distilling trades. About 1.5 million tonnes are exported for the same purpose, often to countries like China that have developed the western taste for beer. The remaining 3 tonnes, i.e. almost half of what we grow, is used for animal feed
The UK is one of few countries in the world that has grown its barley area in the past few decades, with the global barley area declining by 23% in the past 20 years.

More than 93% of malting barley globally is used for beer production, but half the UK crop is used for distilling, feeding the expanding Scottish whisky sector, which is expected to use 1m tonnes of malting barley annually by 2020.

The other half supplies domestic brewers such as Carling brewer Molson Coors, but also underpins exports to maltsters in Europe, who rely on British growers in the south of England to iron out supply deficits from growers on the Continent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 04:25 AM

Sssssshhh....I think you got away with it, DMcG. Someone kindly fixed before Nigs got his arse into gear... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:54 AM

SORRY, SORRY, SORRY.

I typed cakism. Not racism!

As auto text fixes go, that is a real humdinger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM

It is mainly about US multinationals applying different standards to their products in Eastern and Western Europe

Moreover, both interpretations are in accordance with the EU regulations, so the debate being raised is whether the EU regulations need to be stricter to reduce this variation. And we all know how supportive the Leavers are of more regulation from the EU. A strong hint of racism, I think, to object to the variation and object to the means to reduce the variation.

But, to stress, both interpretations are to the current EU standards, which are in many cases higher than from outside the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM

Of course our resident right singers have not mentioned the cost to the planet. It may cost less to buy some things from outside the EU but how much damage does it do to the environment to get them here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 02:39 AM

And US food poisoning deaths are up to 10 times higher than those in the UK:

https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_US_foodpoisoning/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 02:37 AM

That link Iains, is to an article with a question mark at the end (which doesn't of course appear in the link). And it is mainly about US multinationals applying different standards to their products in Eastern and Western Europe. It is not about locally produced food. And the horsemeat issue (not right to call it a scandal, horsemeat is as you say not harmful, and in certain countries is the most expensive item on the menu) was an issue of non-compliance by UK and Irish and Romanian producers which was detected by the EU testing regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:46 PM

"Bigger and more efficient farms produce more food per Ha."

Well now, let's see. My view on this was formed decades ago after I'd read an amazing little book by that self-sufficiency guru John Seymour. The title was Bring Me My Bow. John, Gawd bless 'im, was a devoted right-winger who didn't believe in old age pensions or other state benefits. But he told the truth about our food production. To update him, at least half of the barley and wheat production in this country, most of it produced on huge farms that receive astronomical EU subsidies, is unfit for human consumption and is used for animal feed. Poor animals. That production is possible only by dint of massive chemical input. Not only by artificial fertiliser, much of it won via the Haber process, one of the most polluting systems on earth, but also by the use of lethal neonicotinoid insecticides. On the other hand, "smaller and less efficient" farms, often organic, produce excellent quality food though in slightly less amounts than the chemical systems. But it's all useful as human food and it is not produced via highly-polluting inputs. I know which I prefer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:05 PM

Exercise left to the reader: There is a proposal from the US ambassador that we should have EU/UK chicken and US chicken both available to the end customer to let them choose which they wish.

Show how this implies either a hard border between NI and the Republic, or one at ports, otherwise known as 'a border in the Irish sea'.

Also explain how the US negotiating objectives on labelling are compatible with this idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:11 PM

We buy food from the EU because of its quality.

Food Apatheid in the EU brought to you by the mouthpiece of the left so it's veracity is unassailable. I wonder what side of the divide the UK lies?

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/sep/15/europes-food-apartheid-are-brands-in-the-east-lower-quality-than-in-the-west

This is the same regime that allowed horse meat into the foodchain masquerading as prime beef. (2013 Roumanian horses ended up   as prime beef over parts of Europe. The meat in itself is not harmful other than fraudulent, the concern is phenylbutazone entering the food chain.)
Chickens also pose a risk. Cases of Salmonella Enteritidis acquired in the EU have increased in humans by 3% ... Levels of Campylobacter are high in chicken meat.
US farms are allowed to dip or wash chicken carcasses in water containing chlorine dioxide in order to kill potentially harmful organisms such as E coli, campylobacter and Salmonella on the surface of the meat.
The false argument against chlorine washing is that chlorine is part a processing method that makes up for poorer welfare standards on poultry farms that have sacrificed hygiene for increased production. And so chicken is washed with chlorine to kill off harmful microorganisms that may be present on carcasses.
Animal welfare and food hygiene are two totally separate issues. Conflating the two to play one regulatory regime against another is mendacious


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:06 PM

McCluskey has been in hock to the far right for years. Just because you are a trade union leader, doesn't mean you are in any sense a progressive. Look at Jimmy Hoffa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 01:43 PM

From the BBC website:

Mr McCluskey dismissed reports about Mr Corbyn's health as "fake news".
Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show, he said some people were in a "rush" to change Labour's position of "respecting the 2016 referendum and trying to negotiate a deal which would unite the nation".
He blamed "huge mistakes" by Prime Minister Theresa May, a government "incapable" of delivering Brexit and a "well-funded Remain lobby" for turning the Brexit debate "toxic".


I don't know about anyone else on here, but no 'well funded Remain lobby' is paying me anything. Nor are my views set by a propaganda campaign, as I was making the same points before, during and after the referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 01:10 PM

At the moment, the UK imports about 30% of its food from the EU and another 10% from the rest of the world. How that equation may change after Brexit will be anybodies guess. The EU will still want the trade but will we?
The single market shows amazing disparities from country to country when it comes to food prices, Ireland is the fourth most expensive country in the EU for Food, costing 20% more than the EU average.
The UK by contrast ranks about 18th, similar to Slovakia, Croatia and Estonia.(I find this ranking surprising but the source is Eurostat)
I also find it surprising the prices in Ireland are so high. With the CAP it would be expected prices would even out over time. This is obviously not the case.
Of the 10.3 million farms in the EU, two thirds are less than 5ha in size, by contrast in the UK av farm size is 57ha. Agricultural land in the UK ranks 4th in the EU by area.
Bigger and more efficient farms produce more food per Ha. I suspect food provision after brexit is a non issue. The EU and CAP both need serious reform. In the UK we need to decide if farmers are to remain farmers or morph into grant aided landscape custodians(like many Irish sheep farmers)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 12:17 PM

We buy food from the EU because of its quality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 12:10 PM

We buy food from the EU because, in part, The EU puts tariffs on non EU food. IF we were no longer bound by EU rules, non EU food would be cheaper. The price of French, Italian, German and Spanish food is kept artificially high because they can't compete on a worldwide stage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 11:44 AM

“Awkward things, facts!”, as our RR-WE is so fond of telling us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 10:31 AM

"The EU sells more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU."


Which goes to show that the UK relies far more on the EU for the goods it needs, than the EU relies on the UK. That stuff they sell includes a large fraction of our food.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:57 AM

David C is right. No one trades to lose money, they trade to get the shiny new things. Any form of trade analysis that leaves the shiny things out of the comparison is at best misleading, or potentially worse than useless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:55 AM

It's not just profit and loss in business though, Stanron. The balance sheet showing your assets and liabilities is just as important. If you buy something it may be a consumable or it may be capital expenditure, in which case your assets increase. Trading "deficits" are also affected by this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:54 AM

In trade the 'deficit' is the difference between how much you buy and how much you sell. You do not make a profit when you buy. You might buy with a profit potential but you can only make a profit when you sell.

The EU sells more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU. If trade fails between us, not that anyone wants that to happen, but if it fails the EU will lose more profit than the UK. You might try some sleight of hand with proportional statistics to make it look less but you would only be fooling yourself.

Also there are at least two types of buying. If you buy to consume there is no profit and no profit potential. If you buy to manufacture, develop or invest you have a potential profit, but that might be seen as a lesser potential profit than if you keep your money in your pocket and wait for a better chance.

Between countries there is always a possibility of trade deficit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:30 AM

Trump is one who fails to understand the point of trade, talking about "trade deficits". There is no such thing as a trade deficit, trade is always a two way process. And if money flows one way, lots of nice shiny goods flow the other. Western consumers benefit greatly from trade with China, painted as a deficit by Trump and other western politicians. We get lots of nice shiny products, and all we have to give them is money, which we have, and if we don't we can create.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:52 AM

That should have been “one of the founding principles on which Conservatism is based”.

AKA the ‘Robin Hood in Reverse’ principle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:32 AM

”Lots of people talk about trade solely in terms of benefits to the producer, as if a consumer is just a resource there to be milked.”

Bingo! The principle of ‘The Upward Flow of Wealth’ - the opposite of the myth of ‘The Trickle-Down Effect’ - on which Conservatism is based.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:25 AM

I agree that we often tend to leave consumers out of the calculation, Dave C. And I am hardly pro-Brexit. But if you consider the situation that a high tariff is in place, so we have that negative impact on the consumer already, then my cheese maker is making things cheaper for the consumer, compared to the alternative.

What I wanted to bring out, though, is that many remainers talk as the only beneficiaries are those trading with off shore accounts. It is possible for very much smaller businesses to benefit.


Anyway, that is enough from me about advantages to Brexit. I will return to the positions I regard as tenable: remain or very close alignment with the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:00 AM

Complete and utter cop out Iains, you do not have the answer, you have never been able to answer any of the points put to you re Brexit, ever. Now you are trying to pass the blame onto the Moderators.

The act of a scoundrel. Shameless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 03:57 AM

(b) and (c) are definitely not advantages for the consumer. Higher prices for continental produce, and higher prices for UK produce because producers see "opportunities". Inflationary pressures, and a hit on the hard pressed UK consumer. Lots of people talk about trade solely in terms of benefits to the producer, as if a consumer is just a resource there to be milked.

As for me, I will continue to buy French cheese and German and Italian meat products, even if the prices are higher. I will fund this by buying less British stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:23 AM

... tend to employ ....

That post was inspired by the thread 'Understanding you political opponents', which unfortunately seems to be everyone defending their own PoV. I thought it was raising some points my opponents might raise that are not simply straw men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:19 AM

As one who thinks we should have remained, and as a poor second to keep as closely aligned the the EU as possible, I don't think it is up to me to point out some possible benefits of Brexit. But since no-one else is, here are a couple that could come about. I am not saying they will, but they could.

(a) All pro-Brexiteers talk about getting trade deals far and wide, and all remainers talk about the importance to EU trade. In terms of environmental considerations, there is something to be said for having less international trade - less aviation pollution, for example.and less waste- the fast fashion may be hard hit, but wearing a tee shirt more often is not inherently a bad thing. Of course, even a 40% rise in costs moves a £10 item to £14, so it is quite possible this just continues. For some time I have been thinking about protectionism as a mechanism for protecting the environment rather than primarily jobs, and it could have a role to play, I feel.

(b) IA while ago I was talking to a local cheese maker who is very small scale - perhapa a hundred chees sales a month.They cheeses are Camembert-Brie style, and mainly sold to the middle classes because of the high cost, relative to supermarket equivalents. He was very happy with the idea that French cheese was more expensive due to tariffs as it opened opportunities for him. He was considering expanding if the market looked right.

(c). In a similar vein, while UK companies that trade internationally may be hard hit, those who trade solely in the UK could do well because of high tariff and waste-avoidance pressures. Of course, should the tariffs be low, or zero, the opposite applies.

Naturally, these local companies rely on having customers with money, so if there are high tariffs there could be a gradual loss if the people employed by international companies lose jobs and then because of their having less to spend the local traders lose customers .. a trickle down effect which may actually happen. Numerically are vastly more such local traders than international companies, though of course they tend to empty very few if any staff, whereas the international companies often employ thousands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM

No point in answering your question. My responses seem to be automatically deleted. I guess the truth hurts.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/26/voting-intention-brex-22-con-22-lab-20-lib-dem-19-


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 04:31 PM

Ooooh Iains, you're still avoiding my question :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:40 PM

I'll tell you another
About his brother...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:35 PM

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:25 PM

As things stand we leave at the end of Oct. This is the saint day of St. Wolfgang bishop and Reformer How apposite is that. By that date we will either have a deal or not. The Brussels goblins will have to start proper negotiations.
According to some sources leaving with no deal will lose the EU one million jobs and cost £228billion if Britain rejects deal.


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