BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:03 AM

Intransigence costs jobs!

No doubt you will recognise that if Boris takes us into a no deal through HIS intransigence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 10:32 AM

The Central Bank of Ireland has sounded off about potential ‘cliff-edge’ risks in the event of a no-deal, no-transition Brexit:

    “The main outstanding source of risk to financial stability in Ireland stems from a worse-than-expected macroeconomic shock. This could arise if the expected negative impact through trade channels is compounded by a sharp increase in uncertainty and a fall in confidence, with knock-on effects to Irish employment, incomes and investment. Ireland’s relatively acute exposure to Brexit may also negatively alter investor sentiment towards Irish assets, with adverse implications for financing conditions of an already relatively indebted private sector. Given the extent of direct and indirect exposures, this would result in unanticipated losses for the domestic financial system.”

The Central Bank forecasts that in a No Deal scenario Irish economic output could be approximately 6% lower in 2020. In the understated language of central bankers they warn of

    “… severe financial market dislocation and have potential knock-on effects for financial stability in Ireland.

Yesterday’s third quarterly report report from the bank predicts there will be around 34,000 fewer jobs by the end of next year and more than 100,000 fewer jobs over the medium term compared to their forecast in the event of no deal. The Irish workforce is only two and a quarter million – one fifteenth the size of the UK. This would be like the UK losing 1.5 million jobs, almost 5% of the workforce…

Intransigence costs jobs!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 05:07 AM

He was referring to Dominic Cummings, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:35 AM

Interesting report in The Times this morning
Nigel Farage has said that Johnson’s right-hand man on Brexit is not to be trusted as he “is not a true believer”
Hallelujah !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 03:01 AM

If you think about the functions of government, from ensuring peace to emptying the bins, there is an appropriate level for all of them. And the level that seems appropriate for the least is actually the national government. Nationalism has been responsible for as much conflict in the world as religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:13 AM

Rer3ading his post, Inrealise that Walkabout may have meant some of that when he said "some local government" and therefore addressed the three levels I gave as examples. So take the UK with its four components. Or the US with its local admin, state wide rules and federal rules. These are driven by the need for an organisation higher than local and lower than world wide.

Then think about the unification of Italy. They had regional 'nations' and that was replaced by a unified nation. Which was more appropriate in your scheme.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:49 AM

I agree, Steve. The premise is that the best solution for any problem is either very local or world wide. It seems fairly self evident to me that that is not the case. Sorting out my bin collection, planning and maintaining motorways and climate change are on three inherently different levels I would say. So two levels seem inadequate just on that example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:10 PM

Who's this "we"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:08 PM

We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the UN; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM

Interesting analysis of Google searches about no-deal

If, as we sometimes told, everyone understood they were well aware of the no-deal option at the time they voted in the referendum, it seems many may have forgotten until fairly recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM

"No, it said that the jobs may go, "
Jobs have already gone
Britain needs to plan for creating jobs, not planning for losing more and certainly not adopting a "wait and let's see what heppens" policy
No system can survive such an approach to its economy

From reports form Wales, it seems that an adverse effect on Framing is now being planned for
Johnson has promised that farming will receive government help if this happens
He has been warned that if Brexit is damaging to Welsh Farming there is likely to ve civil unrest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:55 PM

I am hearing a lot of comments from the PM and various ministers that it is up to the EU whether we leave with no deal. That sounds like laying the ground that it will be the EU's fault if we leave with no deal.

Sounds very juvenile to me. If people think a no deal is fine, stop trying to blame other for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:15 PM

"A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable."
If Brexit has had anything to do with this, as it is claimed, then Brexit is causing the "unprofitability"
That unprofitability is taking 1000 jobs out of a part of Britain which historically has major unemployment problems - the work will go to Europe
Tell the workers at Ellesmere Port that is a perfectly fair viewpoint

No, it said that the jobs may go, if it proves impossible to trade profitably at the Ellesmere Port site.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:11 PM

THESE FIGURES ARE FOUR MONTHS OLD
THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME ???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM

"A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable."
If Brexit has had anything to do with this, as it is claimed, then Brexit is causing the "unprofitability"
That unprofitability is taking 1000 jobs out of a part of Britain which historically has major unemployment problems - the work will go to Europe
Tell the workers at Ellesmere Port that is a perfectly fair viewpoint
Bexit is supposed to enable Britain to "stand on its own two feet" - where does taking jobs to Europe fit in with this grand plan ?
It is difficult to discover how many jobs have been lost following Dyson's move to Singapore and India, but Wiltshire seems to have been one of the areas affected
Dyson invested millions in gettig Brexit through and immediately pissed off
It has been announced that 3,500 jobs at Hongda will be lost in the next 18 months
And teh bea goes on
All good business practice, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

I don't think it has been lower against the Euro. Remember, we could have gone in to the Euro at 1.6,
Currently 1.0988
12 Oct 2009 1.07866
22 Dec 2008 1.0549.3
Better to look it up rather than going on personal feelings: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:43 AM

From Jim:On the heels of Vauxhall declaring it will pull out of Britain after a no deal,Sterling takes a nosedive, thanks to Brexit
The only quotes I heard (including on the anti-Brexit BBC) were that the company would pull out of Ellesmere Port (Not out of UK as there would still be Luton) but only under certain circumstances:
"Frankly I would prefer to put it [the Astra car] in Ellesmere Port, but if the conditions are bad and I cannot make it profitable, then I have to protect the rest of the company and I will not do it," (accurate quote from BBC)

A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:39 AM

We are having a democratic candidates' debate tonight [we=Mrricans]. I actually feel worse for y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:36 AM

I don't think it has been lower against the Euro. Remember, we could have gone in to the Euro at 1.6, not doing so was the one thing that Gordon Brown got seriously wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:44 AM

Feb 26, 2019 - In the summer of last year it was reported, to the surprise of many, that Vauxhall/Opel was returning to profit under new PSA Peugeot/Citroen.
Realistically the company has been a basket case for decades.
One swallow does not a summer make

The pound has actually traded lower in the past. Uncertainty leads to volatility. Most people know that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:24 AM

On the heels of Vauxhall declaring it will pull out of Britain after a no deal,Sterling takes a nosedive, thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM

"I think you will find Jim that "teapot"is a euphemism for a homosexual man in some quarters"
Didn't know that Rag
So we can add raving homophobia to this clown's CV
What an apology for a human being - he goes from depth to depth whenever he visits his keyboard - a great representative of right politics, if ever there was one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:59 PM

I think you will find Jim that "teapot"is a euphemism for a homosexual man in some quarters. If it has been meant in that way it would not surprise me one iota. We have seen other homophobic comments from him before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:42 PM

Following on from earlier comments about the "Brexit Bus", here is the news from Wales Online

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:15 AM

"Irish teapot" - another gem from your racist repertoire no doubt
IT SEEMS YOU'RE IN GOOD COMPANY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 10:36 AM

Looks like the Irish teapot is losing out on the popularity stakes.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1159021/Brexit-news-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-poll-UK-Boris-Johnson-no-deal-latest-update

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:59 AM

Another astute piece about the Right-Wing Extremist Gang’s Coup and the effect it’s going to have on ordinary people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:54 AM

While I have a few minutes from cutting the ****** grass
A FEW QUOTABLE QUOTES FOR OUR RIGHTIST FRIEND
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM

RE: Brexiteers for enabling and encouraging racist scum.

Could be worse in Britain, of course - the President of the United States -and his entourage - ARE racist scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM

Tory Right-Wing Extremists getting ready to throw the vast majority of U.K. citizens under the bus following their recent coup...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:48 AM

Should read NO JEWS NO ANTISEMITISM
By the way
"If there was no possible case to answer then there would be no enquiry."
Utter crap, of course - the Commission is obliged to investigate all such enquiries if there are enough of them 'The Labour Friends of Israel' have made sure there are since they first started their campaign
Similarly, The Labour Party is obliged to treat all such accusations seriously - as it has done
Since the Muslim leaders made similar accusations against the Tories, nothing whatever has been done and Islamophobia not only remains a major problem among the Conservatives, but it was the driving force which let the Brexit Genni out of its bottle
Stop uses the long-suffering Jewish People for Political Propaganda
Some of us are old enough to have been around to remember what right wing politics did to them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:16 AM

Now jeas no antisemitism - doesn't get mor difficult than that ever
You inability to control your personal abuse when you have no valid arguments is showing again - 'simples' just about sums you up

More good news on Brexit
Vauxhall has stated they will pull out of Britain if there is a no deal Brexit
Johnson has given yet another bung to Norther Ireland to secure its support - this time only a "multi-million pound one, but open to negotiation, no doubt!
If this goes on the N.E. of Ireland will be the richest part of Britain without work or businesses (apart from the body-bag trade when all these shenanigans reopens the sectarian violence)
AN ASPECT OF BREXIT OFTEN FORGOTTEN

Pip-pip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM

I think the Equality and Human Rights Commission know a tad more about the labour party and accusations of antisemitism than a disenfranchised sparky. The accusation has remained unaddressed by the party for years.
The last internal enquiry is regarded by many as a complete travesty and whitewash.
If there was no possible case to answer then there would be no enquiry.
Simples!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM

'Bout time someone who uses terms like 'bogtrotter' and thinks Tommy Robinson has been hard done by calls it a day on accusations of Antisemitism, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:15 AM

ALSO WORTH A REVISIT
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 03:32 AM

"Neither I am afraid.The only organisation undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitic racism is the Labour party. "
Nothing found so far, nor will there be - No attacks on Jews, no Antisemitism, despite efforts to re-define the term by those who are not happy with humanitarian left politics

The police refused to act against Farage's obviously racist poster, though the force has admitted from time to time to being "institutionally racist" itself - shows the advantage of the right to be "tried by your peers"
The could only get Scumbag Robinson on attempting to pervert the course of justice, otherwise he and his numerous organisations are free to spread their filth whenever they please   
Maaybe Boris will make a difference OR MAYBE NOT

Nice summing up of who is WELL OUT IN FRONT in the Ravism/Anitsemitism Stakes
BREXIT ISN'T TOO FAR BEHIND

Incidentally
"antisemitic racism "
The labour Party may have been accused of antisemitism (and then, only since Corbyn expressed his disgust at what is happening to the Palestinian People) - they have never at any time been accused of having a racism problem - that lies only with The Other Side of the Chamber.
Perhaps those who can't tell the difference should invest in a good book on the subject and get someone to read it for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 PM

A wonderful metaphor has arisen. Apparently the Brexit bus has been abandoned for the time being:

Although Brexit Party candidate Des Parkinson said the bus broke down last night, Derek Jeffs, a local removal company boss, told Wales Online that he saw the bus stranded on Saturday afternoon.

"It looked as if the bus had turned into the layby but there wasn't enough room to turn it around. However, the driver couldn't reverse because the road dipped down,” he said.
(Report from The Independent)


Not like the Brexit Party to get into a situation with no proper plan of how to reach their destination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:47 PM


In the "enabling and encouraging racist scum" sweepstakes, would it be the Brexiteers or the Trumpist Cult that would come out on top?

Neither I am afraid.The only organisation undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitic racism is the Labour party. This is being carried out by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. This is hot on the heels of an official internal Labour party enquiry led by chucklbutty, who subsequently was floated into the Lords on a sea of Whitewash. Adding to labour's woes is the news, several weeks ago, that GORDON NARDELL QC, the lawyer hired by Labour last year to oversee its response for dealing with the escalating crisis over anti-Semitism, has sensationally stood down from his role, plunging the party deeper into chaos.

We brexiteers regard the rank and file labourites as mislead and misguided rather than scum.
Terrible things facts!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1149844/labour-party-news-gordon-nardell-qc-anti-Semitism-jeremy-corbyn-chris-williamson
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/equality-body-launches-investigation-of-labour-antisemitism-claims
not forgetting the beeb of course

https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/holocaust-promoters-labour-party/

I could have used Guido of course but see no point in rubbing in salt. Who in their right mind would wish to depress the freezing point of a snowflake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM

It is highly patronising to suggest that people have to have decisions taken for them because are incapable of understanding it - somebody capable of making the wortld go around, as working people do on a daily basis are capable of understanding anything, given the right information
The only message that was fed to the people - certainly the one that won minority who voted it through was "vote for Brexit and we'll get rid of the immigrants for you" - Farage's claim was as crude as that.
The referendum was not democratic in any way - it was the opposite - populist - based o the lie that controlling immigration would solve everything   
The Brexiteers could hardly promise that a nooo longer existing industry would put us back on our own feet" and thee have been no plans put forward to rebuild an industrial base
The benefits of immigration have been pleaded for for severl years ago - underlined by the announcement last week by the Scientific Community that it will be in crisis after a hard Brexit as badly needed scientists will no longer be able to enter Britain

We can't kick Brexit out as your lot have refused to allow Britons to vote on it now the consequences have become obvious - and largely admitted

Thank you for your good wishes, by the way - mine to you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM

Well, Jim, in a referendum you may be asking a mass of people, most of whom are ignorant of the complexities of an issue that has been sold to them as a simple yes/no, to make crucial decisions affecting generations to come far more than it affects them. Qualifications not required. If you want to know how ignorant, just read the posts of any brexit supporter here. Quite simply, there is no way that they can have properly assessed, or even tried to assess, the pro and cons of what they're being asked to decide on. This was a Tory referendum called by a lily-livered Tory who was running scared of Farage, one of the biggest racist scumbags in the country. The vast majority of Tories voted leave, and a survey showed that 48% of Tory voters consider themselves to be racists. A Tory referendum with a campaign that pandered to the xenophobic sentiments of Tory voters and disaffected (by years of Tory austerity) working class people. That's why we're leaving, and that's why I don't bloody believe in referendums. A referendum is a manipulator of ordinary people which puts them at the mercy of raving zealots on either side of the argument. We choose politicians to gen up on issues and we pay them to know what they're doing. If we don't like what they do we boot them out. We never need to sidestep parliamentary democracy.
What this totally ignores is the fact that following the (non-binding) referendum the matter was put to Parliament, where the question of whether to issue article 50 was supported by a large majority, from both sides of The House.
I know you will say that to do otherwise would have been political suicide, but that means that you think that 'remain' MPs who voted to issue Article 50 are as self-serving as any others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:33 PM

Same thing, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM

Well, Jim, in a referendum you may be asking a mass of people, most of whom are ignorant of the complexities of an issue that has been sold to them as a simple yes/no, to make crucial decisions affecting generations to come far more than it affects them. Qualifications not required. If you want to know how ignorant, just read the posts of any brexit supporter here. Quite simply, there is no way that they can have properly assessed, or even tried to assess, the pro and cons of what they're being asked to decide on. This was a Tory referendum called by a lily-livered Tory who was running scared of Farage, one of the biggest racist scumbags in the country. The vast majority of Tories voted leave, and a survey showed that 48% of Tory voters consider themselves to be racists. A Tory referendum with a campaign that pandered to the xenophobic sentiments of Tory voters and disaffected (by years of Tory austerity) working class people. That's why we're leaving, and that's why I don't bloody believe in referendums. A referendum is a manipulator of ordinary people which puts them at the mercy of raving zealots on either side of the argument. We choose politicians to gen up on issues and we pay them to know what they're doing. If we don't like what they do we boot them out. We never need to sidestep parliamentary democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Jack, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been told by Brexiteers - mostly on Internet forums and social media, but also face-to-face - that I’m a ‘Trailor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason’.

You can't reason with that kind of ignorant stupidity.

Sorry to hear about Alan's experience, hope he makes a quick and full recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

In the "enabling and encouraging racist scum" sweepstakes, would it be the Brexiteers or the Trumpist Cult that would come out on top?

Or are they pretty much the same thing?

Just askin'---

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM

On FB a few days ago from the Scottish singer Alan Hunter:

Thankyou Brexiteers for enabling and encouraging racist scum.
Tonight, at the bus stop, a brown-skinned bloke asked me for a light.
I obliged, then his bus came.
Immediately after this, I was punched in the face and told that I was a “traitor to Britain”.
This bloke had a Yorkshire accent.
I feel sick.

That happened in central Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

”You have sunk Britain - god save us from Patriots”

Especially Gammon ‘patriots’ who have no understanding whatsoever of the meaning of ‘democracy’ within the political system of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, nor of the meaning of ‘Sovereignty of Parliament’ which they continue to pretend they seek to ‘reclaim’ (despite never having given it up).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM

"Do you realise that your sentence contradicts itself?"
I have little doubt that Steve meant it should not have been called in the manner it was
t has more or less been admitted that there was no plan for leaving when the proposal to do so was put forward - even most of the Tory press condemned this as utter stupidity
This left the voters to rely on things like THIS AND LITTLE ELSE
Turning one section of the population against another is as undemocratic as it gets and it verges on illegality.

As the poster shows a line of people somewhere in Eastern Europe, it is a blatant lie - I cannot remember a remainer argument which any where near approaches that level of hate-filled dishonesty
One of the first effects of this was a spike in racist incidents which took them to the highest level ever - they continue
Feel free to produce an example
The nonsensical claims about the damage that was being done and will be done continues
Britain is now facing loss of industries and trade which would not have occurred had Britain decided to remain

I don't agree with Steve's view of referenda - they have transformed Ireland and have brought about rights that would never have been given otherwise
I certainly don't agree with the dishonestly dangerous way this one has been carried out, but knowing what we know now I believe the people have a right to revisit the mess and have a say in what should happen
Even if there is a General Election and a decent party wins, whoever is elected is going to have to mop up this appalling mess and we know your lot are only capable of standing on the sidelines jeering
You have sunk Britain - god save us from Patriots
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:44 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Your interpretation of democracy is a long way from mine

At last! Something we can agree with.

Steve Shaw wrote: This country enjoys Parliamentary democracy. The referendum should never have been called.

Do you realise that your sentence contradicts itself? The same for the next sentence.

Steve Shaw wrote: We were lied to by Nigel Farage, who provided a racist message about uncontrolled immigration by posing in front of a poster showing a queue of non-white refugees who had nothing to do with immigration into this country.

There were no more lies from leavers than there were from remainers.

Steve Shaw wrote: We were fearmongered to death by the remain campaign about a brexit future, the cheerleader of which was your shrill and greasy little man, Mr We're-all-in-it-together- austerity-man, the git who now edits the Evening Standard.

What's that all about?

Steve Shaw wrote: We were lied to about how easy it would be to forge dozens of new trade deals.

Difficult to prove or disprove as we are still part of the EU we are not yet able to complete any deals.

Steve Shaw wrote: The Irish border issue was de-emphasised during tbe campaign in a most dishonest way, and look where we are now with that.

The Irish border is a complete red herring. We are currently 100% compliant with all European law. On the day we leave we will be 100% compliant with all European law. There will be no need for border control until we change our laws and taxes and duties.

Steve Shaw wrote: 38% of the electorate voted leave. The leave vote was skewed by the votes of older people who will be unaffected by brexit.

How to lie with ststistics by a sore loser.

Steve Shaw wrote: We have another vote to choose a government every few years, a move that is regarded as the bastion of democracy. Every few years we are afforded that rethink. Yet you would deny the people of this country a rethink about what is arguably a far more critical and certainly a far more permanent sea change in this country's future. I'll tell you what, Stanron. You're no democrat. If you thought you'd definitely win a second vote you'd be all for it. You'd jump at it. But you're afraid that you wouldn't win, so you oppose it. For no other reason. You wouldn't recognise democracy if it jumped up and bit you on the family jewels. Get honest, why don't you.

Rubbish.

Steve Shaw wrote: And I don't even bloody want another referendum. I don't want any bloody referendums.

I am happy to not have another.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:19 AM

Your interpretation of democracy is a long way from mine, Stanron. Several things:

This country enjoys Parliamentary democracy. The referendum should never have been called.

The referendum was not binding on the government, and no amount of a Tory prime minister's parroting that he would take it as binding/an instruction/a mandate from the people could make it binding. The binding claim was unconstitutional.

We were lied to by Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson both about the amount of our contribution to the EU and about what it could be used for if we refused to pay it.

We were lied to by Nigel Farage, who provided a racist message about uncontrolled immigration by posing in front of a poster showing a queue of non-white refugees who had nothing to do with immigration into this country.

We were fearmongered to death by the remain campaign about a brexit future, the cheerleader of which was your shrill and greasy little man, Mr We're-all-in-it-together- austerity-man, the git who now edits the Evening Standard.

We were lied to about how easy it would be to forge dozens of new trade deals.

The Irish border issue was de-emphasised during tbe campaign in a most dishonest way, and look where we are now with that.

38% of the electorate voted leave. The leave vote was skewed by the votes of older people who will be unaffected by brexit.

We have another vote to choose a government every few years, a move that is regarded as the bastion of democracy. Every few years we are afforded that rethink. Yet you would deny the people of this country a rethink about what is arguably a far more critical and certainly a far more permanent sea change in this country's future. I'll tell you what, Stanron. You're no democrat. If you thought you'd definitely win a second vote you'd be all for it. You'd jump at it. But you're afraid that you wouldn't win, so you oppose it. For no other reason. You wouldn't recognise democracy if it jumped up and bit you on the family jewels. Get honest, why don't you.

And I don't even bloody want another referendum. I don't want any bloody referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM

It’s called ‘The Sovereignty of Parliament’ - something you Brexit-Bumpkins claim to be fighting to ‘reclaim’.