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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 18 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM
DMcG 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Mar 19 - 02:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM
DMcG 17 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM
Iains 17 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM
skarpi 17 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM
DMcG 17 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 17 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM
The Sandman 17 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM
SPB-Cooperator 16 Mar 19 - 06:21 PM
DMcG 16 Mar 19 - 01:33 PM
peteaberdeen 16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM
DMcG 15 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM
Mrrzy 15 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM
DMcG 15 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM
Iains 15 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM
DMcG 15 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM
DMcG 15 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM
DMcG 15 Mar 19 - 06:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM
DMcG 15 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM
DMcG 14 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 PM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM
Mrrzy 14 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM
robomatic 14 Mar 19 - 02:19 PM
DMcG 14 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM
Iains 14 Mar 19 - 10:56 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM

There is another little subtlety that is easy to overlook. What was agreed last week was that May's deal was this:

===

(2) agrees that, if the House has passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then the Government will seek to agree with the European Union a one-off extension of the period specified in Article 50(3) for a period ending on 30 June 2019 for the purpose of passing the necessary EU exit legislation; and


(3) notes that, if the House has not passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then it is highly likely that the European Council at its meeting the following day would require a clear purpose for any extension, not least to determine its length, and that any extension beyond 30 June 2019 would require the United Kingdom to hold European Parliament elections in May 2019.

===

What is easily missed is that clause (3) applies if the negotiated agreement has not even been put to MV3. Couple this with Hammond's statement:
=======

"We will only bring the deal back if we are confident that enough of our colleagues, and the DUP, are prepared to support it, so that we can get it through parliament. We’re not going to keep presenting it if we haven’t moved the dial," said the chancellor, Philip Hammond.

=======

and the likelihood of asking the EU for a long extension increases significantly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?

Yes, since you ask. Remember that the Commons have already voted to change the date. That if the date is not changed we get a no deal which the House has also already voted against. That the change has been promised by the Government as part of the debates. That the process is via a statuary instrument, which is not necessarily a new law:

====
Mr Grieve
Just to remind the Secretary of State: there was a second part to the question, which is equally critical. It is that the Government will have to bring a statutory instrument to the House to alter the departure ?date set out in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. In those circumstances, I assume that the Government are undertaking to do exactly that.

Michael Gove
The Prime Minister and others have said that previously, and I am happy to place on the record once again at this Dispatch Box exactly that commitment.
====

Of course, the ERG will do its damnedest to disrupt the will of Parliament as expressed in its earlier votes. I would expect nothing less of them. And the Government's inability to organise anything is a significant risk. But given that it is not rare to get such things through in less than 24hours, certainly it can be done, assuming the EU have agreed an extension date.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

"Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit "
Grasping at straws tantamount to "We've dropped you in the klarts but it's too late to do anything about it"
The people who are fighting for this are nutters like
LORD SNOOTY who, with one hand wags the flag and with the other, makes sure his own investments are safe by shifting them out of Britain
It's great to see Dyson and AND HIS FELLOW BREXITEERS doing similar - rats and sinking ship springs to mind.
THIS FELLER ACTUALLY MADE IT A PIECE OF ADVICE
UP TO DATE PICTURE HERE
What a fine mess you and yours've got Britain into Nigel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:46 AM

Well, the March edition of The New Yorker has a pretty unequivocal view of the idiocy of BrexShit and its supporters, who seem to have completely lost contact with reality and crossed into a parallel universe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM

In the past, laws have gone through the entire process in less than 24 hours. Amending the date if it turns out to be required can be changed by a much simpler process than a new law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

The default position is that we leave on the 29th, deal or no deal. Until the law is physically changed we leave on the 29th.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: skarpi
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM

This is the BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR UK EVER , your bank loans are going to cost more , the food is going cost more , everything is going cost more , and the space between the poor and rich are going to get bigger , Iceland may not have EU ..but it´s hard living up here , everything cost so much ...and there is a saying in Iceland , which is : Þetta reddast ,it mean it will be ok some how ? ..but it does not ....if you want to go this there so many things that has to change before you do .

all the best and best of luck
Skarpi Iceland .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

Well, Steve, as the Brexiteers insist she is a Remainer, I suppose that proves what they claim about remainers and repeat voting ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM

I think this will have to be the last vote (which is probably why Bercow didn't make a ruling on it) because the European summit is on the 21st.

For weeks she's cried Wolf. Now there really IS a wolf. And a real bullet in the chamber of the gun she's been holding to the nation's head and spinning (in both senses of the word) round and round.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

Funny to think that she will keep having votes on the same thing until she gets the "right" result. Precisely the sentiment expressed by fear-laden brexiteers when there's a suggestion of another referendum...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

“Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.”
? Fyodor Dostoevsky
“It's funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to.”
? J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

what a state of confusion, it was never explained to people that the referendum was advisory that parliament had the last say., these people could noit organise a piss up in a brewery


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:21 PM

May should not bring her deal back to parliament for a third vote until she has pulled her finger out and caught up with ALL the legislative programme that has been on the back burner - including the care act green paper which is nearly 2 years late already. Until then we stay in the EU - NOT NEGOTIABLE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:33 PM

I can't say about any mudcatters, but Nigel Farage has been pretty clear he has no intention of doing it. Photo-ops at the start, end, and perhaps a couple along the way, but the idea of dong the whole thing - no way!

I don't know, but my guess he has left them to it already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM

i see nigel farage and chums have set off from sunderland on an epic march for brexit and freedom. are any mudcatters accompanying the nicotine-stained man frog? can anyone update us on their progress? How many pubs passed so far?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM

Once again, a Brexiteer blames Remainers

You may remember Tim Martin decided to go round his pubs giving speeches in favour of Brexit. It is *just* possible, is it not, that some remainers decided to drink elsewhere as a consequence? Or that people in general don't want to be lectured when they go out for an evening out?

Pubs in general are not doing well, but for those I have seen, Martin's baby is doing appreciably less well than the average.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

A feudal gesture?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

We've yet to reach 1984 - sobering thought
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM

We should dread reaching post 1415, as Agincourt may by then have been avenged...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Hahaha- well observed, Bonnie.

But there is a long way to go to get to 1688...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

This BBC report from about half an hour ago sheds a bit more light. Sort of. A little.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47579033


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d432e7a81b83c24fbadf2c94f9e9535a3dd1500c387028be3d06996de64ad150.jpg?w=600&h=261


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

I think Bercow will have to allow MV3 - it's encoded in the motion that passed yesterday. This from the Guardian at lunchtime Thursday 14th, i.e. before the results were decided:

> Parliament will vote on a motion that sets next Wednesday as the deadline for MPs to pass a Brexit deal. If a deal is passed by then, the government will seek an extension of article 50 until 30 June. But if the deal is not passed by then, the government will need a longer extension, requiring the UK to take part in European elections.

The European Council is meeting on the 21st. So there won't even be time for a MV4. I think that's why Bercow was being so cagey in his wording.

Interesting times...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Actually, we could both be right :)

Or indeed both wrong, such is the clarity of the moment!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM

Some of the right wing press is reporting that with the defeat of the amendment calling for a second referendum, this is no longer an option.

This is mindless balderdash. What Brexit (or indeed its revocation) is deciding is the long term relationship between the UK and the EU. A referendum can never BE that: no-one sensibly claimed it could. A second referendum is a mechanism to choose between alternative relationships. It is not, once again, a relationship in itself.

I do not support a second referendum for the same reasons I did not support the first: it is something Parliamentarians should decide. But if they cannot, votes not withstanding, SOME means of deciding is required and a referendum is one of the few choices available.

Also, that part of the press is tends to ignore that the groups arguing for a public vote requested this should not be voted on at this time, and that was clearly stated several times during the debate itself. That, along with some parliamentary rules about amendments led to Labour abstaining en mass.   It takes a deliberate obtuseness to claim this shows there is no support for the idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:29 AM

I said '15 May' in my earlier post. Obviously I meant '15th March'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

Latest news. Brexit delay could be the end of May.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

BBC live report about 9:55 On 15th May"

 Ms May's hopes of persuading Eurosceptics and the DUP were dealt a hammer blow after the so-called star chamber of Brexiteer lawyers rejected attorney general Geoffrey Cox's latest assessment.

Led by veteran Tory Sir Bill Cash, the group said his idea that the UK could use the Vienna Convention - the international agreement that lays down the rules about treaties - to unilaterally pull out of the backstop was "badly misconceived".

======

It will be even harder to claim something has changed now as justification for Bercow to allow MV3. He will, I an sure, but I think evwryone will try to avoid explaining on what grounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM

Good news for April though. Going to see Stanley Accrington on the 1st to get a good laugh about Btexit and seeing Steeleye Span on the 2nd to forget about this nonsense altogether.

Who says it's all bad :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM

I thought I would have a look at a betting site to see the options, knowing that 30+ names have been suggested.

People are putting money it seems on some odd choices for next Prime Minister. David Cameron, for instance. George Osborne. Chris Grayling (????), Simon Cowell, Tony Blair, Ann Widdecombe, Arron Banks ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 PM

Is May a goner after these votes? Who is going to grab the PM position next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

Even less straightforward!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouthshire_(historic)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

Fascinating!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

Some reading for you - it's not straightforward...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:19 PM

So, how old is Britain anyway?

In America we have a birthdate for the United States. It's when we offically thumbed our nose at you guys. But who did you guys thumb your noses at? The Romans? The French? Actually it was kind of the other way around. The took Caratacus back home and paraded him through the streets in a Triumph. The French arrived (as Normans) and taught you a new language. Which you successfully absorbed in one of the great turnabout conquests of all time. (Good job on that, by the way!)

So, whence do y'all date from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM

So May will be asking for an extension. It may not be granted, of course, but if it is it will either be to 30 June or later.

Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM

Here's one for the remainiacs to chew on (hot off guidos press)

Sarah Wollaston’s amendment calling for a long extension to provide time for a second referendum has been crushed this evening by 334 votes to just 85


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

If this vote was democratic in the first place it would have been based on full information of what people were voting for
It was not democratic in any way, it was based on turning one group of people against the other - the worst kind of populism.
The very first result of this was an immediate rise in racist incidents
THat is now even been acknowledged by the extremist right who have realised the necessity to CLEAN UP THEIR IMAGE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

I repeat....

"Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?"

Well....??


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM

Knife crime in the UK is a serious issue. 17.4,000,000 people were stabbed in the back yesterday.

"I know people voted for Brexit for a range of reasons, but many of us did so to regain sovereignty - i.e. to take back control from an EU political elite who seem arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic. Can someone please help me understand why our own government would wish to inflame that sentiment and become the focus of it by thwarting Brexit through being arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic?!?! Populism (actually anti-establishment-ism) is on the rise all across the West, and politicians seem astonishingly blind to their role in causing it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:56 AM

I seem to recollect the gnome being publicly rebuked for his abysmal behaviour. The pots twould appear to vastly outnumber the "alleged " kettle.
Your posts are all archived, even some you thought deleted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM

Precisely, Dave! Just waiting for more abuse. It's all he's got. At least I get a good laugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

Rhetorical question I presume BWM :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

So, having received no reply the first time (other than the usual abuse)m I'll ask again - why are the Brexshiteers, who constantly and vociferously proclaim their profound belief and faith in their perceived version of 'democracy', so fearful of granting the electorate their undeniable, actual democratic right to a re-vote in order to confirm their earlier opinion or, alternatively, demonstrate that they have changed their collective mind?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

That's just another invitation for him to continue. Just don't encourage him. It really is very simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM

The pub must have closed - let him sleep it off
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

Don't respond
Don't fall for his nonsense
Don't even read his posts if at all possible

It is proven to work but some keep encouraging him. Just stop it please. It is beyond a joke.


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