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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Jim Carroll 28 Feb 19 - 07:10 AM
Iains 28 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM
DMcG 01 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 01 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM
KarenH 01 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM
KarenH 01 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM
KarenH 01 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM
DMcG 01 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
KarenH 01 Mar 19 - 08:32 AM
KarenH 01 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM
KarenH 01 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 01 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 19 - 03:23 AM
Iains 02 Mar 19 - 03:36 AM
DMcG 02 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM
DMcG 02 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM
KarenH 02 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM
Iains 02 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM
Raggytash 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM
Iains 02 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM
Raggytash 02 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM
peteaberdeen 02 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM
Iains 02 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM
Raggytash 02 Mar 19 - 03:31 PM
Iains 02 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM
Raggytash 02 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 19 - 06:27 PM
bobad 02 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Mar 19 - 08:33 PM
KarenH 03 Mar 19 - 01:17 AM
KarenH 03 Mar 19 - 01:19 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM
DMcG 03 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 07:29 AM
KarenH 03 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM
Raggytash 03 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM
SPB-Cooperator 03 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM
Iains 03 Mar 19 - 10:06 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 19 - 10:51 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Mar 19 - 03:39 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:10 AM

"I am merely responding in kind to your posts."
I have never imn my life racially attacked anybody - there id no excuse for your behaviour here Karen
Nor have I insulted anybody personally - certainly not you
Finis
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM

Nor have I insulted anybody personally - certainly not you


and I am the christmas fairy that fell off the tree!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM

Euro tunnel start legal challenge to ferry deals

It seems the Government has set aside 800K for this. When they talked about money being set aside to address no-deal issues, this was not what I had in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

The government has already settled, to the tune of £33 million. They can't defend the case, and they know it. More money hemorrhaging out, over asshattery that never should have happened.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47414699


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM

I'm another fairy. Pointing out that Irish tendency to murder eachother isn't racist. Poet Seamus Heaney did it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

Just a bit of evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Real_Irish_Republican_Army_actions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Cemetery_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_Volunteer_Force


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM

And I stand by my point: if there is a return to what JIM has called 'sectarian violence' on a large scale (because I am not convinced it ever completely went away) then this will not be 'because' of Brexit or 'because' of some failure of the Good Friday agreement but 'because' some people, maybe 'bigots', as JIM described loyalists but I think Catholics can be just as bigoted, CHOOSE violence.

And I for one don't think they should.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

Meanwhile, The US repeats what it hopes to get from a trade deal

As I said earlier, this in line with what Raab and co published as characterizing the ideal trade agreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:32 AM

And I have read a fair bit of Irish history, which is how I know that in Medieval times there was a collection of warring chieftains and not a united country. There was a warrior aristocracy. Plus of course the bits ruled by Vikings who founded quite a lot of towns. There may have been some sort of 'high king' but this seems dubious and the position was contested at the time. I think I have this right.

In so far as the country was Catholic (and at one time it was at odds with Rome about the form of Christianity) then it cannot complain about the Pope giving it to Henry VIII of England and I don't suppose many did so at the time.

Not sure whether Jim would count descendants of the Anglo-Normans as Irish, they used to be called the 'Old English'.

etc etc etc


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

Wolfe Tone? Robert Emmet? Descended from incoming 'planters'.


And the 'celtic revival' was largely brought about by wait for it writers of a protestant or Anglo Irish background.


So now who's over-simplifying? Not to mention being a tad patronising eh Jim lad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM

And what do the English make of all this? Well, I won't generalise, but I do recall at the height of the troubles people saying angrily we should just nuke the lot of them. But I think that might be going a tad too far :)_


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM

> Meanwhile, The US repeats what it hopes to get from a trade deal

and Britain socks it back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47418505

The US wants "comprehensive market access" for its farmers' products that would see more US-made food on British supermarket shelves. European Union rules currently limit US exports of certain food products, including chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-boosted beef. If free of EU trade rules, the US wants the UK to remove such so-called "sanitary and physiosanitary" standards on its farm exports.

Yeah, that always ends well.

Trump "also demands that the pound not be 'manipulated' to improve trade income or make UK products cheaper in the US." The pounds that are really going to get manipulated are those that measure body-weight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:23 AM

Medieval history -
Ireland was reluctantly colonised for eight centuries - religion divided the world and burned its opponents alive - Henry VIII bulti the biggest bonfires so he could get his leg over - which sums pup the clonisres rather than their victims
Try reading up The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years
Your remarks were racist and inexcusable
Please don't repeat them - there's already too much of that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:36 AM

Try reading up The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years

HORSE SHIT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

For Brexit, all that matters is that the Irish border question is highly significant to both sides and has been an area of violence very recently. All this historical stuff is good background, but it is all about WHY the border is significant. The important thing from now on is THAT it is significant.

For example, the recent US ideas on what a trade deal would involve in changes of standards will be of vital importance to NI/Ireland and would still be even if none of that history had happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

There was a particularly unthinking Brexiteer on Newsnight a few evenings ago talking about the difference in standard on both sides of the border - he was happy to be on US standards whatever the Government might say. All you have to do, apparently, is to agree to recognise each other's standards.

The spirit of "The easiest deal in history" lives on, I see. Just reach an agreement, that's all. Which we are doing so successfully for every aspect of Brexit.

Just reach an agreement. I could barely contain my laughter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

'HORSE SHIT' seems a tad extreme. But it does seem to me that Jim is not one to let a nuanced and carefully researched historical view of the tragedy that was the potato famine get in the way of a bit of irrational bile.

'sums pup the clonisres'. Gaelic? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

I can accept the Irish Famine was a tragedy caused by ignorance, incompetence and misplaced Victorian morality. To attempt to portray ir as an act of deliberate genocide is the irrational delusion of a venomous old man witha massive chip on his shoulder concerning all things English because in modern parlance his father would be declared a terrorist.
      For deliberate read the Highland Clearances


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Back to Brexit.

Something that has slipped under my radar. Rees Mogg the arch brexiteer moved some of his investment company Somerset Capital Management to Dublin last year.

So much for "we're all in this together" eh!


Rees Mogg

Any good news yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

"irrational bile."
The only irrational bile is your revealing racist outburst and Iain's persistent ""bogtrotter" hatred
Let's leave it where it is eh
Behaviour like this puts Brexit exactly where it belongs - ignorance besed bigotry
PROBABLY MORE BOGTROTTING IN_FIGHTING

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

"irrational bile."
The only irrational bile is your revealing racist outburst and Iain's persistent ""bogtrotter" hatred
Let's leave it where it is eh
Behaviour like this puts Brexit exactly where it belongs - ignorance besed bigotry
PROBABLY MORE BOGTROTTING IN_FIGHTING

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg claims that the European project proves “the more Europe, the worse you do” - amid mounting fears over economic collapse
in the EU.

The EU Titanic


Unless betrayed we will not be part of such nonsense. Spiffing News!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM

Betrayal eh ......... strong word.

But not quite as strong an indication as moving some of your investment company to a eurozone, or as some may term it a betrayal of one's principles.

If he ever had any.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

i read that the nicotine-stained man frog is planning a 'leave means leave' march from sunderland to london. that's 281 miles in 20 days. how marvelous! what unlimited comic potential (or possibly a 'Slow TV' opportunity. Carry on Brexit? or'Triumph of the Will' as half a dozen puffing 50 somethings manage to wobble past the 3rd open pub of the day's journey. i look forward to seeing NF (just noticed that connection...hmm) giving up the tweed for a tracksuit and sweatband.

any opposition to this carnival would i hope be entirely jovial piss-taking with no aggression - any suggestions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

And now for something completely. The font of accurate facts and critical analysis!

https://order-order.com/2019/03/01/eurozone-suffers-worst-manufacturing-slump-since-2013/

Oh Dear what can the matter be
   German cars are stuck in the factory
They'll be there for many a saturday
   destroying the EU budget with flair!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:31 PM

Meanwhile one of your hero's is moving his wealth out of the UK into the EU to ensure that he doesn't suffer financially and you continue to act like a simpleton and say that is fine for my lords and masters.

Once again Idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM

Once again Idiot.    A fine example of a well structured leftard reply. To acknowledge others as your Lords and Masters suggests a massive inferiority complex, or perhaps a meek acceptance of your perceived place in society. The "rich man in his castle" and all that.
Never mind! keep buying the scratch cards!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM

One. I have never bought a scratch card in my life.

Two. I haven't bought a lottery ticket for over 15 years or perhaps more. I do acknowledge I very occasionally bought them when the lottery first started, though many years ago. (I now consider them to be idiot taxation)

Three. (and most importantly) If someone tells me that we should leave the EU and then that self same person moves some of his vast wealth to a EU based country I ask myself why.

Four. You post like an idiot and ........thus

Five. I can only conclude you are an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:27 PM

I don't even know what a scratchcard is. My old mate and I have jointly done the lottery for the last 25 years using the same numbers I used in the very first draw. Thirty bob a week each. Apart from that, it's the Grand National, a quid to win on one horse and a quid each way on a long shot. That's me lot when it comes to gambling.

I've been discussing Iains with the mods lately, Raggytash. The best policy is to blank him out and let him expose himself without response from us. He's a bit of a bobad when it comes to shifty dealings, so ignore him and let's see how it goes. I admit that I've been a fool on my own climate change thread but I'm reining meself in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM

I've been discussing Iains with the mods lately

Lololol............a sure sign he's feeling threatened by someone who's mounting a convincing counter argument to his position. He's done to others before so beware.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:33 PM

Inexplicably, the pound has done quite well this week. Bought another couple of hundred euros, I have... I just hope the buggers will let me into Europe! I hear that a no-deal brexit could lead to passport delays amounting to five hours per aeroplane load. Didn't see that on the side of a bus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:17 AM

Irrational bile sounds good to me. Now let's leave this where it is eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:19 AM

It could be argued that people who dismiss as Irish people who came from Scotland several hundred years ago are 'racist', and, indeed, at least one Irish (as apparently defined by Jim) historians have suggested that at times Irish Nationalism has been tainted by 'racist' views of what being Irish is. Do people whose origins were, say, Muslim count as Irish in Jim's 'origins' based definition I wonder?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM

"It could be argued that people who dismiss as Irish people who came from Scotland several hundred years ago are 'racist', and, indeed, at least one Irish (as apparently defined by Jim)"
I have called nobody but you and Iains racist Karen - you both have sterotyped Irish people - you are "killing each other" - Iarins as "bogtrotters" - as racist in my book as it gets
In 1922 Britain forced through a treaty which deliberately created a sectarian (not racist) state giving the power to the two thirds majority - an unequal state in terms of property ownership, voting rights and employment.
That led to nearly half a century of sectarian based violence and culminated in open warfare
Members of my own family, including two small children, were driven from their home with only what they could carry in suitcases and on a pushchair containing th youngest child
When protests demanding Civil Rights broke out in the late sixties, peaceful demonstrators were directed by the police, through screaming mobs of Loyalist bigots - the result, several years of open warfare
None of this was racist - it was down to a sectarian state created and supported by Westminster
Now the same Westminster is still using the same sectarian group to keep its Government in office, sing teh British taxpayers money to do so
The consequences of Brexit are quite likely to lead to a renewal of violence between the two communities and until the Little Englanders over the water get their head around that fact, that will remain a threat
This has never been about race - the ordinary Irish people get on well together when they are not being used by England (Westminster is equally well-able to use the other national groups in Britain when it suits their purpose
Yours and you new friend's stereotyping of the Irish people is a disgrace
I suggest your go read a book, I doubt if your friend is able
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM

Of course Jim is clearly guilty of being in violation of The European Union Framework Decision for Combating Racism and Xenophobia (2007)

The text establishes that the following intentional conduct will be punishable in all EU Member States:

    - Publicly inciting to violence or hatred, even by dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.

The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years
This is a thinly veiled accusation of genocide and should be dealt with accordingly.
I trust the bitter old racist bigot feels proud of himself! He stands condemned by his own words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM

It is quite amusing in its way that 'senior Tory MPs soften opposition to Brexit deal' in the Guardian's phrase. In short, Brady of amendment fame has recommended the acceptance of the deal to the 1922 committee if Cos can come back with a form of words to reassure them the border agreement is temporary. They seem to have forgotten that it was declared to be so 8 December 2017 "JOINT REPORT FROM THE NEGOTIATORS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED KINGDOM GOVERNMENT ON PROGRESS DURING PHASE 1 OF NEGOTIATIONS UNDER ARTICLE 50 paragraphs 42-56, which make use of phrases like "In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union" which make plain that these arrangement would end if an agreed alternative is in place.


There can be as much flannel as you wish says that the EU and UK do want to reach such an alternative agreement, but I think it is 100% certain any new words Cox brings back will keep that line: everything stays in place until a new agreement is reached.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

TO NO-ONE IN PARTICULAR
A WIDER VIEW - NOT PARTICULARLY FOR "BOGTROTTER RACISTS"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

Can I just hastily add a comment aimed at those of us who agree that we don't respond to a serial abuser
The Irish Question has once again become a major feature of British politics
We have two posters who have decided to adopt a racist attitude towards the Irish (one always has done)
For the sake of clarity, the subject needs to be nipped in the bud now before it gets a toe-hold
I have said what I believe needs to be said - as far as I am concerned, it ends there
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

"But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide."


Now are you paying attention jimmie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:29 AM

An interesting clip

EU army?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uggLsHDEk4

Oh what a twisted web we weave........


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

It is not 'racist' but a matter of historical fact that Irish people have killed other Irish people. Much of this happened in what was called 'The Troubles'. Jim himself accepted this when he said he supposed that Brexit might lead to a return to 'sectarian violence'. Note the word 'return'. On that basis he accepts the historical facts, which are that Irish people have killed eachother. I think I might have used words such as 'murdered' and also 'tarred and feathered' and 'punishment shootings' as well, none of which makes me racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM

"It is not 'racist' but a matter of historical fact that Irish people have killed other Irish people."
As Brits have killed Brits and any other nationality that gets in their way
You used your racist accusation to justify partitioning Ireland yet it was the creation of a sectarian state by Britain along with the propping up of a sectarian minority that seet one group against the other
"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder each other"
Your Little Englander ignorance of the Irish question is breathtaking in its shallowness and your suggestion that the Irish would continue to slaughter each other is as racist as it gets
I really thought that sort of mentality died with the empire that used it to control most of the world
It is [petty significant that throughout the Troubles, despite claims such as yours, that the troops were only there to keep the peace, the Army carefully chose which side it was on and assisted that side in every way possible
The British establishment is still sprinting around like a blue-arsed fly attempting to cover up some of the atrocities it was part in and prevent the perpetrators having to stand trial for their actions

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/northern-ireland-backstop-the-troubles-theresa-may-brexit-european-union-red-lines-a8803336.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

Let's all leave the deluded old fool in the wilderness where he belongs.

Meanwhile little gems from Guido the font of all political truths!

Strong competition within the Shadow Cabinet this morning for most brazenly dishonest line on a second referendum…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

Like every post from Guido it's says absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM

It would be misleading to suggest that Ireland was the only place British rule left a mess being it of course
The Empire left a mess for the residents to mop up WHEREVER THEY PUT THEIR BIG FEET
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM

My partner has informed my that Czech businesses are expecting to face losses of 30 billion Korun (about £1 bn) if UK leaves the EU. If that happend, UK tax payers must compensate Czech companies for the damage the nasty British little shits are doing to their betters. If they don't then they are no better than excrement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:06 AM

https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/long-bailey-labour-arent-looking-overturn-referendum/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM

900!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:51 AM

Happy Birthday Baccy
You don't look a day over 89
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:39 PM

Back to the thread topic.

Restaurant critic A.A. Gill writing about Brexit in the Times before his death in Dec 2016. Words of great wisdom which our resident Brexit-Brigade would do well to consider, educate themselves, and get back to reality...

“It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me.
She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

"It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

"Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

"We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

"The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity. And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

"All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

"There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them. The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

"Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty

"We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

"Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

"When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

"Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

"Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’

"You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

"Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

"The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

"No time for walls: the best of Europe, from its music and food to IM Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre, depends on an easy collision of cultures.

"There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

"The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

"Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

"I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.”


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Mudcat time: 14 October 5:55 AM EDT

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