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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 14 Aug 19 - 02:12 PM
Stanron 14 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM
The Sandman 14 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 19 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM
Iains 14 Aug 19 - 12:59 PM
peteaberdeen 14 Aug 19 - 12:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Aug 19 - 12:10 PM
Iains 14 Aug 19 - 11:17 AM
Stanron 14 Aug 19 - 11:06 AM
Mrrzy 14 Aug 19 - 11:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Aug 19 - 03:05 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 19 - 07:40 PM
Nigel Parsons 13 Aug 19 - 06:52 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 19 - 06:04 PM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 04:44 PM
Stanron 13 Aug 19 - 04:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 19 - 04:37 PM
Stanron 13 Aug 19 - 04:31 PM
Raggytash 13 Aug 19 - 03:49 PM
Stanron 13 Aug 19 - 03:32 PM
Raggytash 13 Aug 19 - 03:22 PM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 03:16 PM
Stanron 13 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 01:41 PM
DMcG 13 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Aug 19 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Aug 19 - 12:20 PM
Stanron 13 Aug 19 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 19 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 19 - 11:24 AM
Mrrzy 13 Aug 19 - 10:57 AM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 10:56 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 19 - 09:10 AM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 19 - 05:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 19 - 04:23 AM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 03:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Aug 19 - 03:20 AM
Iains 13 Aug 19 - 02:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 12 Aug 19 - 09:56 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM
Raggytash 01 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:12 PM

non elected campaigners (like Farage) and are deciding to override Parliament

I hate to point out that the electorate gave Mr Farage and the Brexit party the largest number of seats of any one party in the EU.
You are 'avin a laff surely?

A recent yougov poll clearly demonstrated that MPs should do the bidding of the people. The majority voted for brexit. It is the MPs who are trying to overturn the people.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: You'll have to pay a lot more for your veg and wine, though.
Because the EU puts tariffs on foreign wine and food, after leaving we have the option to pay less for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

"... it would be a very great gamble to remain in the EU. I see it as a nascent empire of evil. At it's base is deceit and a contempt of the individual. This is charmingly counterpointed by a clumsy incompetence and what I suspect will turn out to be a rather stupid intransigence."

And you're comparing this unfavourably with our putative major trading partners of the future, the US and China? And don't pretend to think that we won't "lose our sovereignty" in our dealings with them. We'll certainly lose our sovereignty over food standards and the NHS and we'll certainly have to toe the line over Hong Kong and hold our noses as we deal with the most repressive regime on earth. We will be minnows in a sea of sharks. We will do as we're told. Why, we might soon have to ditch the nuclear deal with Iran as a condition for trading with Trump. All this for kicking up a big fuss over the one percent of our GDP and none of our domestic laws that are tied up with the EU (and even that isn't all one-way: ask those stupid farmers who voted leave but who are about to lose their subsidies...), and an immigration policy that has overwhelmingly benefited this country. You're old like me, you have your house and your pensions and your savings and you don't have to find a job, and brexit won't bother you. You can fiddle while the country burns. And you know that, don't you. You'll have to pay a lot more for your veg and wine, though. You'll manage, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM

well some people who voted leave did not envisage a no deal brexit.
mean while I feel it is necessary to criticise the EU For signing MERCOSUR AGREEMENT.The EU bangs on about emissions and then signs an agreement with Brazil, a country that apparantly has 23 per cent of the cattle population of the world, second behind India 32 per cent. Ireland has 0.07 per cent. However while i am very critucal of the hypocrisy of the EU , I DO NOT AGREE WITH LEAVING IN A NO DEAL BREXIT


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

Agreed, Pete. Cameron will forever be known not just as pig sticker but also the man who ran from a fight with the nicotine stained man-frog and then abdicated all responsibility for his failure.I

Stanron, thanks for the civil and honest answer. We may disagree but at least we can discuss. Who will share the responsibility if it does go wrong though? As far as I am concerned the ball is entirely with you - I.E. The leavers. Who else will be to blame for crashing out of the EU? Well, I suppose there is porky prick and the toad... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:12 PM

"Johnson (in fine Trump style) "
He tweeted his accusation, byt the way
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM

Brexit has now undermined Parliamentary DEmocracy in Britain
Hammond and other leading Tories have accused Johnson oand the Brexiteers of betraying the people by bringing taking up policies from non elected campaigners (like Farage) and are deciding to override Parliament
Johnson (in fine Trump style) has accused Hammond of colluding with the EU to stop Brexit
The Tory Party seems to have entered into a state of Civil War with each other, leaving Britain ungoverned
Up lads and at 'em
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 12:59 PM

And now the insults start! What part of majority escapes your understanding? Maybe I can help!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 12:15 PM

i reckon it is interesting to think that no-one (on here anyway) seems to have changed their mind (in fact i have been introduced to another phrase - along with backstop and proroguing - 'double-down') the nearer we get to halloween the more us remainers get angry and worried and the brexiteers double-down on their unshakable faith in leaving.

no matter what happens i'm angry that we are engaged in this massively expensive and risky nonsense. and all because cameron never had the guts to call out nigel farage for the creepy little fascist that he is.

ho hum


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 12:10 PM

Chicken à la industrial chemicals.. yum...

.. and Boris playing chicken with the EU and all our futures..

Wot a silly clucker...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 11:17 AM

The EU and the US have a long-running dispute over imports of chlorine-treated poultry, which EU member states have refused to accept since 1997. The feud has resulted in proceedings before the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and remains a major bone of contention in EU-US trade relations.



According to a report from the Adam Smith Institute (which argues in favour of allowing PRTs), “immersing poultry meat in chlorine dioxide solution of the strength used in the United States reduces prevalence of salmonella from 14% in controls to 2%. EU chicken samples typically have 15-20% salmonella.”

The US disputes this, says the ban is not based on scientific evidence and little more than wilful protectionism designed to protect EU poultry producers from more competitive imports.

So is it safe?

US regulators are unequivocal: yes, it’s safe. The USDA has approved several antimicrobial rinses for use in poultry processing, including chlorine dioxide, acidified sodium chlorite, trisodium phosphate and peroxyacids, and meat treated with such rinses is considered safe for consumers to eat.

And, in fact, their EU colleagues agree. The European food safety regulator EFSA looked at the issue of chlorine treatment and found “chemical substances in poultry are unlikely to pose an immediate or acute health risk for consumers.”

The Adam Smith Institute says there are good reasons for the UK to scrap EU rules that currently ban chlorine-treated poultry in this country.

In a new briefing paper called Chlorinated chicken - Why You Shouldn’t Give A Cluck, it argues British consumers could enjoy much cheaper poultry if the ban on chlorine treatment were lifted. “US methods produce fresh chicken at 79% of the price of equivalent birds on British supermarket shelves,” it says.

It also points out American consumers eat about 156 million chlorine-treated chickens a week, and are fine, and that the risk associated with chlorine treatment are tiny. “Adults would need to eat 5% of their bodyweight in chlorinated chicken each day to be at risk of ill health from poultry alone,” it says. “Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm.”

And propaganda from: It’s fair to say the British Poultry Council is not at all impressed by all this talk of American chicken imports. In fact, chief executive Richard Griffiths flatly rejects the notion of importing chlorine-washed chickens as part of a makeweight in trade negotiations with the US.

“We are proud to produce wholesome, nutritious and affordable food for the UK population. We also know that British consumers trust nothing other than British chicken,” he says. (and we will make them pay through the nose for it.)



All this information from “The Grocer” no less. No leftie axe to grind with them, just wholesome facts!(Chlorine dipped of course)


Also just under a year ago the EU decided Millions of chickens could soon be sold across the EU without being individually inspected for contamination or signs of disease after being killed, in a move some experts believe will put consumers at increased risk of food poisoning bugs. Campylobacter is Europe’s biggest cause of food poisoning, with up to 9 million cases estimated to occur annually, although most are not reported. Rates of the disease – which can prove fatal – are known to be rising, with high levels found in chicken meat. This would seem a good example of EU joined up thinking.

Is a jug of well chlorinated water required to accompany a meal of chicken in this brave new world of the EU?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 11:06 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: If it all goes pear shaped though, will you take responsibility or blame someone else?
That's an interesting question. If it turns out that I was wrong I would admit my mistake but responsibility would have to be shared.

As for gambling, part of my point of view is that it would be a very great gamble to remain in the EU. I see it as a nascent empire of evil. At it's base is deceit and a contempt of the individual. This is charmingly counterpointed by a clumsy incompetence and what I suspect will turn out to be a rather stupid intransigence.

As I have said I expect that in the next five to ten years the EU will collapse under the weight of it's own absurdities. We will be better off out than in if and when that happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 11:03 AM

Oh, we *are* all screwed. The problem is that they expect us to lie back and enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 03:05 AM

Thanks Stanron and apologies for not noticing that before. Going back to an earlier post of mine on the brexit 5 thread then, if it all works out fine, I am happy to give credit where it is due. If it all goes pear shaped though, will you take responsibility or blame someone else? Hopefully, we will still be about in 10 years and that should be !omg enough to tell. I seriously hope that you are right because, if not, we are all screwed. Gambling with your own welfare is one thing. Gambling with the economy of 65 million people is another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 07:40 PM

The former. All EU countries must adhere to welfare and hygiene standards that don't apply in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 06:52 PM

From The BBC
Why ban chlorine-washed chicken?
Washing chicken in chlorine and other disinfectants to remove harmful bacteria was a practice banned by the European Union (EU) in 1997 over food safety concerns. The ban has stopped virtually all imports of US chicken meat which is generally treated by this process.

Although the article goes on to give figures for greater health risks for US chicken, as the EU ban only came in in 1997, it is worth asking whether this was to improve food standards, or to reduce competition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 06:04 PM

'Surely the point is not what trade will maintain but how will they replace THAT WHICH WILL BE LOST"

That's right. Trade with the US is utterly dwarfed at present by trade with the EU. Let's suppose that, by some miracle, the backstop is not threatened and the Good Friday Agreement remains secure (impossible with a no-deal, but one can always imagine). It will take decades for the current trade volume and balance between us and the EU to be replicated by any deal between us and the US, and even that is supposing that we'll get a deal at all. Which we certainly won't if the many Irish-supporting democrats in Congress get even the slightest sniff of a threat to peace in Ireland. Which they will.

By the way, the chlorinated chicken issue is nothing to do with whether we are going to be obliged to consume chlorine. It's about lower welfare and hygiene standards in the US which can only be compensated for by harsh post-slaughter disinfecting treatment. I'm no fan of the standards in the EU but be assured that they are a damn sight better than those in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:44 PM

A coherent, yea compelling, reason for leaving.
51.89% voted to leave.In layman's terms this is a majority. 'nuff said!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:42 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?
Read my post;

Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

My answer is in the last two paragraphs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:37 PM

So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:31 PM

As I suggested you ignore what I, Iains and Nigel Parsons have posted. The cliches you list are not what we posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:49 PM

Sorry Stanron, neither you nor anyone of the leave side has ever been able to present a coherent arguement for leaving.

You have stated we will regain our sovereignty which we never lost. You claim we will regain control of our border bust that only relates to Europeans immigration, from other parts of the world we already have full control.

So please tell me how I will be better off.

To date I have experienced only negatives, rise in the cost of my weekly expenses a dramatic fall in the value of the pound. My insurance companies relocating to mainland Europe etc etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:32 PM

Raggytash wrote: Stanron your response once again begs the question I have asked in scores of occasion that has yet to be answered in any coherent form.

IF you can tell me how myself and millions of others like me will be better off outside the EU you will have my full support.

I'm still awaiting that conherent response.

Over to you.
You are not waiting for a response from me. You are pretending that I, and others, have not already responded. You might fool yourself, you might fool some other people but you don't fool everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:22 PM

Stanron your response once again begs the question I have asked in scores of occasion that has yet to be answered in any coherent form.

IF you can tell me how myself and millions of others like me will be better off outside the EU you will have my full support.

I'm still awaiting that conherent response.

Over to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:16 PM

Chlorination is the mainstay of potable water treatment in the UK. Every time we wash ourselves,our kitchen utensils or vegetables the various items are chlorinated to the tune of about 0.5mg/l. For the average person the only time chlorine becomes a hazard is by misuse of household hypochlorite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

The chlorinated chicken scare always seems a bit overblown to me. In my teens I was a keen swimmer and immersed myself in chlorinated water almost daily most summers and several days a week in winter. Admittedly I never ate myself but any chlorinated water always seemed to wash off.

My post was in response to Steve Shaw's post

Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:24 AM

saying a deal was unlikely any time soon. Your list of scare stories would therefor be unlikely any time soon as well.

I would prefer leaving without a deal as that is the only way of actually leaving. All this business about stopping us leaving without a deal is really about stopping us leaving full stop (period).

The dynamic of getting a deal or deals after we have left will be different to previous negotiations. The point is that there will be a deal or a number of deals after we leave but we won't always have to be the supplicant. No deal is not no deal for ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:41 PM

More project fear from the gruniard

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/john-bolton-trade-deal-uk-colonise

But if it ever became a choice between becoming a US state with a clearly stated bill of rights, or an EU vassalage, the answer is obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM

So the other thread did get closed then?

I will transfer my lack of response to this thread, but I could not let this wonderful sentence in an email from my MP go by unrecorded:

We are on our third Prime Minister since the referendum, I place the responsibility for that at the EU’s door.

Everything is the EU's fault, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:38 PM

It is absolutely patently Trump's primary intention
is to do everything in his power to weaken all other nations..
..whether they be competitors or allies...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

"This will continue after leaving, however we leave."
Surely the point is not what Trade will maintain but how will they replace tTHAT WHICH WILL BE LOST
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM

So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:20 PM

”We do lots of trade already with the US without a deal. This will continue after leaving, however we leave.”

I’m sure you’re right, Stan. But that’s not the worry, is it? The worry is that Bozo and his cohorts are in cahoots with Trump’s bunch and desperate for a ‘deal’, and that any deal the Americans are prepared to enter into with the UK will be very heavily weighted in the US’s favour. Don’t forget Trump’s election battle-cry - “America First!”.

Get ready for a diet of chlorine, steroids, and vaccines, and a privatised health service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:01 PM

We do lots of trade already with the US without a deal. This will continue after leaving, however we leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:40 AM

NEW WARMONGER IN THE WHITEHOUSE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:24 AM

Nancy Pelosi has said that the chances of a trade deal getting through Congress on the back of a crash-out, leaving the backstop trashed and the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy, are nil. A trade deal with the US anytime soon is in the realms of clouds and cuckoos. Johnson doesn't appear to be relaying that bad news. But he wouldn't, would he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:57 AM

I also note that no matter how many friends Ireland has in the US congress, those in that congress won't stand up to trump and if they tried he'd just go around them anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:56 AM

Bolton has the EU sussed with referendums. They take the Robert the Bruce approach of try try and try again until the right answer is given.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:10 AM

I note that the US, with the horrid John Bolton at the helm (arguably at least twice as vile as Trump), is gleefully pursuing us for when we leave the EU, which Trump hates with a vengeance. It isn't about giving us a good deal (which will take many years and which will come laden with unpalatable conditions). It's about driving wedges on this side of the Atlantic. Long may the US be a waning force in the world...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

An interesting poll of how MPs think they should act and how most of their electorate think they should act.


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/13/are-mps-elected-exercise-their-own-judgement-or-do?utm_source=t

"As Burke found 250 years ago, constituents have very different ideas, with 63% of Britons saying that MPs are elected “to act according to the wishes of their constituents, even when this goes against their own judgement”. In contrast to the system Burke proposed, this is the ‘delegate model of representation’."

But it must be pointed out that Burke only flourished in his later career because he was elected to rotten boroughs.

Today more people are enfranchised and far better educated and capable of insisting their representatives represent them.
The next General Election will clarify this stance to the nth degree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:52 AM

Not directly connected with Brexit but very much a part of the unelected Nigel Farages attempts to create an image as a straight- talking, beer swilling man-of-the-people in order to become part of Brexit's populist Government
Farage has made a speech in Australia where he humiliated members of the Royal family (Gawd luv them)
He ridiculed Megan and Harry's decision to have only two children in oder to highlight the dangers of overpopulation, sneered at Prince Charles's take on Global Warming, saying it would be better if he died before the queen and described the late Queen Mother as an "overweight, gin-drinking chainsmoker
Apparently it all went down very well in republican-minded Australia.
Amazing what political ambition does to patriots who wish to climb the greasy pole
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:23 AM

Of course I should have added that you may not want a compromise that partially satisfies most people. You may be of the "like it or lump it" school and say that just crashing out is best. I don't like that idea for a number of reasons, most of which I have already covered. If that is your opinion then, fair enough. If it does all work out for the best, take the credit. If it all goes pear shaped though will you take responsibility or just blame someone else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:47 AM

Headline voting figures
Con 31 +2
Lab 27 -3
TBP 16 +1
LD 16 NC
Grn 4 -1
SNP 3 NC
UKIP 1 NC


"All the 17/18c declarations about parliamentary supremacy are mostly penned by lawyer MPs. And they were writing about parliament as a way of countering the power of the monarch.
Until the 1832 Reform Act, the franchise was so sketchily minimal that nobody could claim the people had any way of exercising popular sovereignty, and education was so basic among the majority that it was not considered desirable.
After 1832, the people made their wishes ever clearer, forcing governments into the Repeal of the Corn Laws, social and electoral reform (prodded by the massive wave of Chartists).
The monarchy retreated from power - Victoria became progressively more arms length with governments, letting them legislate.
At no time in the 19th or 20th centuries did anybody say, oh never mind the government, we'll just leave it to parliament. George V enterprisingly banged the politicians' heads together in 1931 when the parties were fighting internal civil wars, and ordered them to realign and form a National Government to pass legislation the majority of the voters desperately demanded and needed, to deal with the slump.
If power did not come from the people, those MPs would not be sitting in that chamber at all."


Rees-Mogg addressing the "only advisory" element of the referendum. Bearing in mind, all referenda, bar the AV one in the UK have always been advisory and the result enacted upon (simply because the status quo won on the day).He said "Ah, those opposite and those in the court are claiming 'But it was only advisory'. Advisory to whom? Were we to advise ourselves? After all, we, in this house, voted overwhelmingly to allow the referendum to take place, so advising ourselves on what to do would be a pointless task if ever there was one. No, we were asking for the British people to advise us what to do, and their advice was given plainly that we must leave the European Union. Do we ignore their advice? Never. Only at our peril. "

"By passing the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill 2017 Parliament and the government ruled that the result of the Referendum 2016 was to be formally and unswervingly enacted.
Passing the Withdrawal Act 2018 enacted the full process. Parliamentary opposition to its own legislation is pointless. It has no further role, and remainer MPs have left themselves no more time to change their little minds yet again. The government is not minded to request a treaty change, and parliament cannot in law insist it does so.
Parliament has in fact just demonstrated that it is not supreme or sovereign at all. Even with the most bigoted bully the Speaker's Chair has ever seen, it is powerless to squash the people's vote to re-establish our national sovereignty - and It must now sit back and gnash its teeth helplessly."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM

I am no longer asking for any positive predictions as, over the last 3 years, that has proved useless. I was asking on the last thread for ideas which may help to get what is right for the country and will satisfy the desires of most people. I know we cannot sway opinion from here but I am interested in what our resident leavers, particularly Stanron and Nigel, think is a good way forward.

Yes, this is a theoretical exercise. The ideas may not be achievable.
But neither was the internet not long ago!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:20 AM

MPs are not in Parliament to follow ‘the wishes of voters’. That’s not how Representative Democracy works. Why do Leave supporters find it such a difficult concept to understand? How many times does it need to be said before it sinks in?

The Responsibilities of an MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:43 AM

My disparaged post about a poll clearly stated it was by Ipsos Mori.
Strangely enough they have their own website, just like YouGov.
There you can double check the results to your heats content.

A more recent result yesterday:
A ComRes poll found 54 per cent of the public agree that the Prime Minister Boris Johnson 'needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending Parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it' . The poll also uncovered a widespread disillusionment with the political process, with 88% of respondents feeling MPs were 'out of touch' with the public, and 89% saying they 'ignore the wishes of voters and push their own agendas' on Brexit. Asked whether they thought Parliament was more in tune with the public than Mr Johnson, 62% disagreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM

Thanks, SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:56 PM

Re-opened. Play nicely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

Copy and paste the first sentence into your browser. The post was lifted straight from the Express, that left-wing bastion of fair comment and unbiased reporting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

Once again no link, so we cannot check the veracity of his post.

This is despite being asked to provide links on numerous occasions.

If he is so confident of what he posts why is he so relucant to supply the origins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM

An unattributed copy and paste from the Express from Iains, pretending it's his own work. How honest. How Lord bloody Haw-Haw. He was told what to say too.


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