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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 04 Apr 19 - 04:39 AM
Iains 04 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 19 - 04:33 AM
Iains 04 Apr 19 - 04:18 AM
DMcG 04 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM
DMcG 04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM
The Sandman 04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 19 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 09:29 PM
Stanron 03 Apr 19 - 09:14 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 09:00 PM
Stanron 03 Apr 19 - 08:30 PM
Iains 03 Apr 19 - 08:15 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 08:14 PM
Iains 03 Apr 19 - 07:56 PM
Raggytash 03 Apr 19 - 04:03 PM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM
DMcG 03 Apr 19 - 03:32 PM
Iains 03 Apr 19 - 03:07 PM
The Sandman 03 Apr 19 - 02:38 PM
DMcG 03 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM
Raggytash 03 Apr 19 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 02:15 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM
Iains 03 Apr 19 - 12:08 PM
Iains 03 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 10:58 AM
Stanron 03 Apr 19 - 10:56 AM
DMcG 03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 10:33 AM
Stanron 03 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 10:10 AM
Stanron 03 Apr 19 - 09:41 AM
Rain Dog 03 Apr 19 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 09:11 AM
Iains 03 Apr 19 - 08:57 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 03 Apr 19 - 07:48 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 03 Apr 19 - 07:47 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM
DMcG 03 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 03 Apr 19 - 03:34 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 19 - 07:30 PM
Raggytash 02 Apr 19 - 06:46 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:39 AM

And after that protest, how would you rank the choices, Iain? As an MP, the house would be calling on you to vote. Telling it you are unhappy is all very well, but a vote is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM

Interesting comment yesterday about the motion on no deal where the speaker had to follow convention(to his utter partisan disgust)and cast his tiebreaker vote for nay.That one vote that tipped the balance could have been Labour's Fiona Onasanya, convicted for perverting the course of justice, wearing an electronic tag.

The bill itself, lest we forget, was proposed by Labour expenses fiddler Yvette Cooper who flipped her house several times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:33 AM

Just spotted a good phrase to describe those who call those who wish to remain in the EU "remoaners" and want to force their views on everyone else. Brexitaliban :-)

On a more serious note, I concur with your choices DMcG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:18 AM

What is on offer is the bastard son of what was voted for.
Tied to the EU by a treaty with no representation.
For those with no knowledge of history it is worth pointing out that the
War of Independence, also known as the American Revolution and the Revolutionary War, was fought from 1775 to 1783 between Great Britain and the 13 British colonies in North America.No taxation without representation" is a slogan originating during the 1700s that summarized one of 27 colonial grievances of the American colonists in the Thirteen Colonies, which was one of the major causes of the American Revolution.
representatives can be nominated ,check your facts
Pray tell why the rush for a deal before the EU elections. Unless we have an election we will have no MEPs. Representatives are a totally different category of officials
May's Treaty leaves us locked in paying all sorts of reparations with no voice in the matter. It is many magnitudes worse than remaining members.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM

Let's take that a stage further. According to rumour one of the things the cabinet discussed was using alternative votes for the government indicative votes with these options:

A: May's Deal
B: Labour's Deal
C: No deal
D: Revoke.

(No doubt with an amendable bill a second referendum and Malthouse compromise would be proposed as amendments, but they were not options being suggested.)


As an MP, you have to rank them. No option to say you would rather do something else, that's what's on the order paper. What would your order be?

Mine would be
Revoke
Labour
May
No deal

What would others say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM

For all of that, Ians and Stanron, we have to go with something. Obviously your first choice is no deal, we understand that. The question was, if that is blocked for whatever reason, do you support the Withdrawal Agreement or remain? From what Ians wrote, it looks like remain for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM

If we do not have a clean break we need representatives in the EU Parliament.
incorrect, representatives can be nominated ,check your facts


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:17 AM

A REALITY CHECK FOR TORIES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM

Corbyn is a far from a 'revolutionary socialist' as you can get (total waste of time to ask for examples to back up to this claim)
He is an old guard Humanist Socialist of the type that helped create the promised "Home fit for heroes to live in" following the war
He's read Marx - most people who have an active interest in politics have - Thatcher boasted she had, as have numerous Tory leaders   

The head of the Bank of England yesterday described the STEADY DECLINE in the British economy yesterday and laid the blame squarely on Brexit - he said that crashing out would be catastrophic   
I was talking with a friend whose work as lecturer took him to Germany a few months ago - as a good Catholic, he was stunned at the official resurgence of an interest in Marx as a serious economist
As a young man Marx was a revolutionary, but his main work was as an Economist - 'Young Karl Marx is worth seeing (especially for mancunians)
Along with 'The Death of Stalin', it ranks as one of the best films ever made, in my opinion - both should be on any education curriculum

As someone whose sole income is a British State pension, the way things have gone and continue to go, it's ludicrous for a Tory to raise the issue of pensions - they become less valuable by the month
I suggest they go check on exactly what they are before they suggest that anybody can possibly live on them
Tory Policies (pursued by both parties to date) have led to a steady fall in the BRITISH STANDARD OF LIVING and the economic forecasts suggest twenty years of economic instability
I don't think any Tory is in a position to a claim of being taken seriously since the Brexit Show has bombed the way it has
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:29 PM

"We'll get what we get. Probably a rubbish deal."

What you said after nine years of Tory Britain. Stick to the point for once. YOU voted brexit, YOU voted May. YOU forgot to be careful what you wished for. This is a one hundred percent Tory mess, spawned by that man Cameron, who YOU also voted for. One hundred percent your mess. If you don't get what you want, tough shit, mate. Don't blame anyone else. The whole planet and his dog now knows that we are a damn sight better off staying as we are. That's what I've voted for all along. You and your sorry ilk did this to us, and, if we leave, you can be damn sure that we won't let you forget it. So no wonder you can never stick to the point. No "Marxist" ever got anywhere near this bloody mess. Your pension, if it gets hit, will be hit by a bloody mess that you Tories created all by your silly selves. So don't even think of blaming us. And I haven't even read any Marx.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:14 PM

I 'voted for her' in Manchester. A safe Labour seat.

Of course you favour Corbyn. He's a revolutionary socialist. What's that likely to do for your pension?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:00 PM

Well you voted for her!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:30 PM

I agree. We should leave on WTO rules and then see what offers come our way. No one in our government has the nerve to implement this kind of exit. No one has the courage to stand up for our long term interests.

We'll get what we get. Probably a rubbish deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:15 PM

Example of No Deal
According to the German association of the automotive industry, the country last year(2017 exported 769,000 cars to the UK, its single largest export market.If the UK were to join in a tariff war, the industry would suffer the commercial equivalent of a cardiac arrest.

Do you seriously think No Deal would cause anything other than a short term dislocation?
It is not the abyss it is painted to be. The only scare story that has come to pass is the reek of bullsh*t


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:14 PM

It takes a worried man
To sing a worried song...

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 07:56 PM

What May is offering is not a deal,it is an international treaty that in many respects is worse than what we have now. It is not brexit, it is a betrayal. It is such a betrayal her own party cannot support it, she has to go cap in hand to a marxist. Her puppet masters must be very pleased by her performance. The only thing that May is offering is fetters and chains with the keys firmly held by the EU bureaucrats
17.4 million are still waiting for an election commitment to be honoured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:03 PM

Perhaps after 3 years reality is starting to dawn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM

Exactly what I thought when I read his post, DMcG - he's described his preference for precisely what we have right now as members of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:32 PM

So remain is better than her deal in your view. Not your first choice, of course, but that is the case you make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:07 PM

If we do not have a clean break we need representatives in the EU Parliament. May's treaty hamstrings us where we are subject to EU law and taxation with no seat at the negotiating table.
We fetter ourselves to taxation without representation.

It is neither fish nor fowl, simply foul!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:38 PM

I do not believe that everyone who voted leave voted for a no dealbrexit i have talked to some who wanted the uk to be a similiar position to norway


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM


Facebook ads run secretly run by staff of Lynton Crosby


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:24 PM

Very interesting article in the Guardian now highlighting some dirty tricks, alledgedly, by the leave campaign.

Seems some of their supporters have been paying for an advertising campaign on Facebook.

Could someone please link to the article 'Facebook Brexit Ad's secretly run by staff of former Tory advisors company'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:15 PM

Had my fun
If you can't stand by what you said, don't say it or you'll later have to lie about it
Thanks for yet another display of Brexiteering - all goes into the profile (espacially the creativity that goes into it - genius - utter original genius)
G'night
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

You're a lying bastard

and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face!

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

Isn't it great to see two partiots sneering at Britain's dilemma
On par with one of them gloating that Ireland would be dragged down into the swamp Brexit has created, higher up this thread
Humanity and compassion rules OK in their world - Nigel and Tommy should be proud of you
Ji, Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 12:08 PM

"Vote Leave, Get Remain.
Vote May, Get Corbyn.
Any Deal is Better than No Deal.
Ad vomitum. Even God himself appears to have had enough of this disingenuous lot."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM

Another minister resigned. The dominoes slowly tumble. The choice between troughing and conscience plays out slowly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:58 AM

Wasn't intending to - Stanron is what he is but he doesn't resort to personal abuse as does our resident representative Brexiteer who makes response unnecessary by his own behaviour (spoilsport)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:56 AM

I've said this before and I won't be surprised if I say it again in the future. The only way to actually and fully leave the European Union is with 'No Deal'. Every little bit of a deal ties us to the European Union and it's rules. Remainers know this and this is why they insist on taking No Deal off the table. They want to take leaving the EU off the table. The stratagem is deeply dishonest but not unrecognised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM

Now cross-party talks are under way, it is worth revisiting the canard that both parties supported Brexit in their manifesto. This claim completely ignores the fact that they had dramatically different views of what Brexit was (and there is no reason whatever to assume all 17.4 million voted for the same thing, so there is good reason that at least some of the 17.4m meant what Labour meant)

For interest, here is an extract from the Labour manifesto:


Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first. We will prioritise jobs and living standards, build a close new relationship with the EU, protect workers’ rights and environmental standards, provide certainty to EU nationals and give a meaningful role to Parliament throughout negotiations. We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain. We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the        economy        first.        A Labour government will immediately guarantee existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain and secure reciprocal rights for UK citizens who have chosen to make their lives in EU countries. EU nationals do not just contribute to our society: they are part of our society. And they should not be used as bargaining chips.


So what Labour meant in their definition of Brexit included the benefits of single market, customs union, and protection of EU nationals. If that is not what you think Brexit is, then by definition you cannot claim that Labour promised whatever you do think it means in the last election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM

JAMES - DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!

FFS, you’ve got the pair of them on your case, playing you like an old fiddle now - how many more bloody times do you need to be told?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:33 AM

"Stanron wrote: No surprise there then."
That's what I meant
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM

Stanron wrote: No surprise there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:13 AM

Stanron has already had his answer - many times but as he appears to make a point of ignoring everything anybody says, it seems a waste of energy to try again
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:10 AM

"What wedge is this? Between those who want to remain and those who want to leave the EU? "
Brexit was based on putting the blame for Britain's increasing problems on the number of foreigners coming in, which automatically had repercussions on British citizens from other ethnic backgrounds - the beginning of a wedge
The fact that the majority was as small as it was created an almost fifty-fifty division among those who voted, leaving those who didn't to stand and watch, I have little doubt, first in bewilderment, then in growing horror
The vicious animosity displayed by the leavers, hate mail, threats of recrimination... were outlined in an article in yesterday's Times by a non political remainer describing the behaviour of former friends and neighbours
None of this would have happened if Brexit had been planned

"I get fed up with the politicians and political commentators who say this sort of thing. "
And I get fed up with people who cant see what's under theirnoses
Before the echoes of the referendum result had died down, racist incidents, including acts of violence, had begun - these have continued way past the highest number ever recorded in British history

There you go - Can't blue clickie
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

Jo Cox's widower, nice man as he appears to be, denied any connection between the murder of his wife and Brexit - I wonder would that still be his opinion ?

The 'White Jihadist' Nazi scum are about to be tried for plotting to murder a woman Labour MP -
Racist groups like any of Tommy Robinson's present or former parties you care to name, are becoming more active (it's no coincidence that Robinson was one of those who gave limited support to Brievik)
Populism that sold Brexit is based on prejudice, which in its turn, gives rise to racial and cultural tension, which, in its turn inevitably leads to violence
That train has already left the British station
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:41 AM

If you have another referendum why would you expect anybody to abide by the result? People who voted to leave would expect their vote to be ignored again and people who voted to remain would just ignore the result again. Nothing would be settled. It would be a totally worthless waste of money and time. Oh, but hang on! This is what Labour does. It wastes money and time. No surprise there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:24 AM

Jim posts: "the UK needs some form of co-operation to remove the wedge that has been driven between the British people"

What wedge is this? Between those who want to remain and those who want to leave the EU?

Jim posts: "A divided country will inevitably lead to bloodshed"
I get fed up with the politicians and political commentators who say this sort of thing. It just seems like stirring to me. The country is divided and it seems extremely unlikely that that will change in the foreseeable future.

I voted remain but was not surprised by the result. I thought it would be close and it was. I have little doubt that if we had another referendum the result would be close again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:11 AM

"Tread carefully, Jeremy. There's a trap afoot."
Not sure there's a trap - traps take planning and the Tory's skill at that political art has become fairly obvious
I have more faith in Corbyn to avoid aligning himself with these morons than I would have in New Belabour and I don't see him as a career politician
He needs to remember that The Irish Labour Party were virtually wiped out for taking part in a coalition with rats in trouble
At least he hasn't used the crisis the Tories and Ukip have created for party-political advantage (never thought I'd say that) - the UK needs some form of co-operation to remove the wedge that has been driven between the British people
A divided country will inevitably lead to bloodshed
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:57 AM

Carry on mayhem! There is no need to make it up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 07:48 AM

Whoa, sorry! I should be thanking DMcG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 07:47 AM

Wow, Jim. Saving that. (Pity it's written by someone called Cameron.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM

Ha, that's brilliant! He's had plenty of people ringing alarm bells. As Polly Toynbee was saying this morning, Brexit is purely a Tory mess and Jeremy must ensure that Labour doesn't get tainted by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM

The Compassionate Fool


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM

Tread carefully, Jeremy. There's a trap afoot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:34 AM

I have some sympathy for the right wing press who may either have to accept the demon Corbyn as a saviour, or say the Brexit he has helped negotiate is so bad you should vote remain in a deal/remain referendum.

Not a lot of sympathy, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

If she’d made BrexShit a cross-party project three years ago, we wouldn’t be in this disastrous dung-heap, and the laughing-stock of the rest of the world, that we are now.

But, of course, she had instructions from others - far wealthier, and thus, far more powerful than her - to obey, which meant she had to keep everyone else, including most of her own government, out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

"Oooh, I believe a cage has been rattled!!"
Apparently so
This is the feller who claims it's Anglophobic to critcise British politicians and that you have to apply for a visa if you wish to do so
I've changed my mind about wanting him gone - I think we need an example of what's happening to Britain
Raggy's right, of course - 'hands off cocks and on with your socks' - a new day dawns

Just received a long document from Google explaining the changes to their relationship with those living outside the U.K. don't understand a word of it, but I suppose I shall when I buy anything on line
Off for the paper later - can't wait for my morning laugh-in with the local farmers
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 07:30 PM

Just ignore or talk past the daft bugger, Raggytash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:46 PM

Oooh, I believe a cage has been rattled!!


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