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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM
Iains 17 Jul 19 - 04:33 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 19 - 02:17 AM
DMcG 16 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM
Iains 16 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM
DMcG 16 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 19 - 01:02 PM
Iains 16 Jul 19 - 11:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM
DMcG 16 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jul 19 - 02:02 AM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 05:44 PM
DMcG 15 Jul 19 - 05:27 PM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 05:14 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 19 - 03:09 PM
Raggytash 15 Jul 19 - 03:03 PM
David Carter (UK) 15 Jul 19 - 02:57 PM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 02:09 PM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM
Mrrzy 15 Jul 19 - 01:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM
DMcG 15 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 19 - 11:15 AM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 19 - 10:05 AM
Iains 15 Jul 19 - 09:55 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM
DMcG 14 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM
Iains 14 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 14 Jul 19 - 03:55 AM
DMcG 13 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM
Nigel Parsons 13 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM
DMcG 13 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM
David Carter (UK) 12 Jul 19 - 08:04 AM
DMcG 12 Jul 19 - 06:56 AM
Iains 12 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM
DMcG 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM
DMcG 11 Jul 19 - 05:55 PM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM

There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers. Which is why one in particular keeps trying to get it closed. Luckily, the moderation team are on to him and remove the ill concealed attempts to shut it down. Just ignore him and let the team do their bit to keep this important topic out of the cess pool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

"Lefties"
A TIMELY REMINDER OF RIGHT AND LEFT
AND ANOTHER
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 04:33 AM

Deleting the link with the President elect's speech highlighting her intent to destroy the veto does not destroy its validity.

If lefties wish to put their fingers in their ears and chant la, la, la, that is a matter for them.
The more sensible among us regard it as childish.

Political moderation on mudcat does not impact reality in the real world.

What part of the stated intention of qualified majority voting can you not understand? Does deleting all mention on mudcat magically make the issue go away?

I supplied a link of Farage summarising the President Elects speech and also a link to her entire speech.
What very strange behaviour to delete them both.
Once again delete the messenger because you do not like the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 02:17 AM

"Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it."
Absolutely
Beats leaving home like a sulky teenager any day
The EU is a combination of states dominated by a failing system - one that can no longer cater fo all its citizens - the rapidly increasing gap between haves and have nots is an obvious indication of how this is impacting on the people
This system will have to change or it will collapse
Brexit and Trumpism are ploys to divert attention from the effects - "blame someone else for our failures"
Immigrants and Muslims 'the enemy within', have taken the place of Germany's 'Jewish menace' - go dig out Farage's poster to see that message written in big letters
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM

Do you see a pattern forming here?
Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey?
items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to.


Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it. As Dave said, being outside that group and squeezed between such a superstate, the US, China and Russia - for example - does not sound a bright move.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM

DMcG Have you heard of Robert the Bruce and the spider.
A little history from a previous post of mine
The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957

By the Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union; 1991), which went into force on November 1, 1993, the European Economic Community was renamed the European Community and was embedded into the EU as the first of its three “pillars”

The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) created the European Union as a single body of "three pillars". The pillars consist of the:
1) European Communities(the EEC),
2) Common Foreign and Security Policy
2) Cooperation in Justice and Home affairs.


Do you see a pattern forming here?
Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey?
items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to. YThe pattern I see is evermore integration


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM

Comparing what could happen in the future with what has already happened since the brexit vote is hardly comparing like with like. Besides which, if Europe does become a "superstate" with its own army, the UK will hardly be in a position to match them either economically or in military strength. I would say if there is any truth in that speculation, which is all it is, we would be in a much better position inside the club than outside.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

Those links - and the discussion on Galilleo - confuse countries/the EU with people. Yes, there are some senior people who want an army, or to end vetoes. But there are not the whole EU, and the article on taxation, for example, makes plain most countries are opposed.

It is the same confusion with Galileo, which David C pointed out very clearly. "The UK" does not have expertise in this. Individuals do, and they could easily move elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:02 PM

And answer came there none
The fact that Brexit has put Britain into free-fall seems to be an accepted fact, even by the arch-Brexiteers
"When at first you can't succeed - talk about something else", seems to be the order of the day here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 11:21 AM

1) Europe wants an army
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-14/france-maintains-goal-of-creating-a-european-army-minister

2)Call for EU federal superstate
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/690886/European-Union-Guy-Verhofstadt-MEP-Brexit-EU-superstate

3) EU wants to end veto on foreign policy and taxation and eventually end all vetoes
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/majority-voting-could-see-five-states-decide-eu-taxes-37898614.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ursula-von-der-leyen-eu-commission-president-foreign-policy-veto-qualified-major

Three very good reasons for getting out of Dodge, and all three vehemently denied on here by remainiacs


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM

It's even worse than that really. A lot of what is likely to happen is known and none of it is good. No one has yet come up with any good news as this thread and the ones before it attest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM

They voted for something with not the faintest clue of how they would be affected.

Which is bad, but nothing compared to continuing to insist the unknown must happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM

"”With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. "
Any Government which does not base its policies on probable outcomes anddoes not plan in advance is not fit to hold office
Any government who pushes through a policy based on a leap in the dark, like Brexit obviously was, deserved to be removed from politics altogether
Nrexit has destabilised the future of Britain for at least two decades (admitted), has undermined the economy, driven away major industries, has divided the British people radically, particularly on the issue of race relations and has rendered the elected leadership totally impotent and at odds with each other
It has divided the elected ruling party into warring factions which has made Britain virtually ungovernable over the last few years and now threatens to destroy what is left of Parliamentary democracy and break up the U.K altogether
No possible decision on Brexit can begin to heal the damage that has already been done
DAMAGE SO FAR
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 02:02 AM

”With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. To make forecasts a minimum data set is required, otherwise the exercise is guesswork, and hence futile.( as has been stated here many times)”

And there we have it - confirmation, in two short sentences, of the sheer, unadorned stupidity of the Leave voter, from the mouth of our own arch-BrexShitter. They voted for something with not the faintest clue of how they would be affected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:44 PM

so why raise it in relation to Ireland,

1)Because as the Irish Times succinctly said a while back:
"EU tax plan 'is a bigger threat to Ireland than Brexit"

2)Because the financial legislation is already in place or proposed and reasonably accurate forecasts can be made as to the future impact of such changes. Perhaps if Belfast was made a freeport after brexit those American companies most impacted by proposed EU tax harmonisation would simply relocate a hop skip and jump up the coast from Dublin

With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. To make forecasts a minimum data set is required, otherwise the exercise is guesswork, and hence futile.( as has been stated here many times)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:27 PM

That doesn't scan - the syllable count is all wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:14 PM

seen elsewhere


(Galileo) Galileo, (Galileo) Galileo, Galileo, Figaro magnifico
But I'm just a poor EU, nobody loves me
He's just a poor EU from a poor family
Spare him the UK from this monstrosity

    Bismillah! We will not let you go!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:09 PM

"the UK may have the only key to wind it up."
Ireland is solidly in support of Europe and efforts by Ukip rejects who have attempted to dive a wedge between her and Europe have been totally rejected
The overwhelming feeling here is that the problem is solely Britain and its threat to the Border
Again, advice from a supporter of a policy which has all but destroyed British society and brought Parliamentary democracy to its knees really isn't needed
You have persistently dismissed what may happen to Britain so why raise it in relation to Ireland, for whom you have shown "bogtrotter" level contempt?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:03 PM

Interesting that the Irish economy grew by 8.4% last year according to reports on RTE


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 02:57 PM

With regard to things like Galileo, EU companies will recruit British scientists and engineers working on it, holding out the promise of high salaries and shiny new French or German passports. The key people are very mobile.

If I was younger I would go. I may even do so now if I can find the right niche.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 02:09 PM

Ireland's position at number 33 is quite interesting because in terms of GDP per capita Ireland ranks about number 5 in the world rankings.
Should the EU introduce its much touted tax harmonisation rules I suspect Ireland could be very heavily impacted.
The distortion of Ireland's economic statistics (including GNI, GNP and GDP) by the tax practices of some multinationals, led the Central Bank of Ireland to propose an alternative measure (modified GNI or GNI*) to more accurately reflect the "true" state of the economy.

Foreign-owned multinationals continue to contribute significantly to Ireland's economy, making up 14 of the top 20 Irish firms (by turnover), employing 23% of the private sector labour-force, and paying 80% of business taxes.
Given the importance of US multinationals to Ireland's economy (80% of Irish multinational employment, and 14 of the 20 largest Irish firms), the passing of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 is a challenge to Ireland. Parts of the US TCJA are targeted at Irish multinational tax schemes (especially the move to a modern "territorial tax" system, the introduction of a lower FDII tax on intellectual property, and the counter-Irish GILTI tax regime). In addition, the EU's proposed Digital Sales Tax (and stated desire for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base), is also seen as an attempt to restrict the use of the Irish multinational tax schemes by US technology firms.

    These impending changes coupled with a potential no deal Brexit will impact the Irish economy very heavily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM

Galileo Project. a starting point.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/25/what-is-galileo-and-why-are-the-uk-and-eu-arguing-about-it


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

The EU have the resources to overcome problems - and industry-less Britain can hardly be described as essential to anybody any more

Fact:
In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people. Despite the decline since the 1970s, when manufacturing contributed 25% of UK GDP, the UK is currently the ninth largest manufacturing nation in the world.
Gross Domestic Product of United Kingdom grew 1.4% in 2018 compared to last year. This rate is 4 -tenths of one percent less than the figure of 1.8% published in 2017. The GDP figure in 2018 was $2,828,640 million, leaving United Kingdom placed 5th in the ranking of GDP according to the International Monetary Fund.

Ireland by contrast would rank no 33


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:36 PM

I love this thread, lots and lots of intelligent info and only a few childish insults, amazing. I read French and English (British?) papers but get way better analysis here. And while I'm a Mrrican and Trump yada yada, but I feel for you guys, really.
But...
75 years of peace for Europe? What about the former Yugoslavia and all the wars in Africa and the Middle East being fought by European might today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Why spoil the story with a few facts DMcG? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM

The suggestion that UK has the only key is extremely doubtful - is there the slightest evidence for this? According to the statement the agency issued:




The cause of the technical incident is identified and recovery actions are implemented to ensure that the nominal service is resumed as soon as possible while safeguarding quality of the services.

Galileo provides “initial services”, the phase that precedes the “full operational services” phase, since December 2016. Nominal Galileo redundant capabilities and associated service continuity functions are partially affected by on-going major deployment activities towards the Galileo “full operational services”.



Some papers like the Express seem keen to make a meal of it. It does not sound anything out of the ordinary when moving from 'initial services' to 'full operational services'. Obviously, I am sure they would rather it had not happened' but it is common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 11:15 AM

"the UK may have the only key to wind it up."
Little Brit gloating about other countries problems is hardly going to win them the friends they are going to need to make up for the mass exodus of British businesses
The EU have the resources to overcome problems - and industry-less Britain can hardly be described as essential to anybody any more
Maybe Dyson can help ?
Whoops - nearly forgot - he's pissed off to Singapore
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:49 AM

The EU may have the shiny clockwork car but it appears the UK may have the only key to wind it up. I cannot put it any more simply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:05 AM

"the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out."
Britain chose to leave - it was their decision to "freeze themselves out"
Having your cake and eating it or what !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 09:55 AM

The EU’s Galileo navigation system, set up as a competitor to American GPS and much-trumpeted by Remainers, has now been broken since Friday. Users were sent an advisory notice instructing them to avoid the service. Given that many key parts of the system involve the UK, the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM

Should have been “...but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the fouls Widdecombe hag specifically, from...”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

A superbly-written piece about politics in general, but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the foul Widdecombe hag, from I See You


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM

Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice

When Sir Simon McDonald responded to the resignation letter he said
I understand your wish to relieve the pressure on your family

What do you think that meant, in a land of widespread gun ownership? It could mean his family being subjected to loud and vocal mobs harassing them. Or it could mean 'offed with extreme prejudice'.

Not a phrase to use lightly, I feel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM

Seems that the sewer press are getting their bought and paid for lackeys in Parliament to lean on the Met to go soft on the leakers and publishers of the ambassador's accurate and confidential communications. Such as paid Telegraph columnist Boris Johnson, occasional Times columnist and spouse of a Mail hack Michael Gove, and Murdoch lackey Jeremy C Hunt. The weasels are closing ranks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM

Doesn't seem that the ambassador said anything that wasn't in the Muller report anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

Judging by today's papers there are yet more delights to be had from the ambassador's leaked "postbag". For example: Support for the dodgy dossier on trump/russian collusion.
Seems we went to war on bliar blairs dodgy dossier.
What was the real intent of the trump/russian dossier? Destabilise his presidency and aid a deep state coup?
Jus' like:
the notorious 1953 coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq and nothing to do with the AIOC/BP nationalisation.
Have to admit though, that one went better than the suez fiasco a few years later!

When caught interfering in another country's affairs, simply getting fired is escaping lightly. Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice. To try to argue Trump interfered in sovereign affairs of the UK is risible. BOOT is on t'other foot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 03:55 AM

According to today's Sunday Times:


The chairman of Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party was last night embroiled in the "Trump files" leak scandal as it emerged that he is in a relationship with the writer whose story brought down Britain’s ambassador to Washington.
Richard Tice, a Brexit Party MEP, is dating Isabel Oakeshott, who last week published leaked diplomatic cables in which Sir Kim Darroch branded Donald Trump "clumsy and inept", forcing Darroch’s resignation when the president announced he would not work with him.

Security sources said a suspect had been identified for the leaks amid "panic" in Whitehall that a "pro-Brexit Kim Philby" figure has been trying to undermine officials not deemed supportive enough of leaving the EU. Scotland Yard and the intelligence services believe a civil servant with access…


(Because it is behind a paid firewall, the article is truncated at that point. The Guardian's comments on the Times article say:


According to the Sunday Times, which cited unnamed government sources, a suspect had been identified and suggestions that it could be the result of a computer hack by a foreign state had been ruled out.
"They think they know who did the leaking," an unnamed government source told the paper. "It's now a case of building a case that will stand up in court. It was someone with access to historical files. They went in and grabbed a range of material. It was quite crude."


I am reminded that on Newsnight a few days ago, Richard Tice was against a police investigation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on.

No you didn't. Trump sounds off, Boris - who now admits he didn't do enough to defend Kim - is more concerned with pleasing Trump than supporting his staff, and Kim sees that his [probable] boss will not support him. That was my argument. It would be a naïve interpretation to think that just because the lack of support from Boris was the immediate cause of the hostile environment that Trump played no part in its construction.


In any case, I am not interested in games of 'who wins the argument'. I make my points, which people can agree with or not. Its up to them. That is one reason why, as I say often, I try to make a point, explain it once (mainly to clarify what it seems I was unclear about first time) and then try to leave it. That allows you, or Iains, or anyone else to have the last word. I don't care either way, I am not keeping score.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter
Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.


Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on.

What more can be expected?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM

Diplomats are supposed to be subservient to world leaders otherwise it would be their fingers on the button
Q - What's the difference between a patriot and a Qusiling
A - ****** if I know, given the sample here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM

I think, Jim, the response will be that Trump does not claim to be a diplomat. Of course, then they have all the diplomatic reports released by the WikiLeaks business, plus all the commentary from current diplomats that there was not exceptional whatsoever in the language and style of writing of Darroch. Which will be deemed irrelevant, I expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM

"He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered."
LIKE THIS ?
Arsekissers of the world unite !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM

One of the saddest things about BrexShit is the way it has emboldened and given a voice to racists and xenophobes who think it's OK to do things like this.

No doubt written by a Yaxley-Lennon Fan-Boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:04 AM

The ambassador's communications were confidential. Trump has no business even knowing about them. The person who leaked them deserves the most severe punishment. If he had said something uncomplimentary to Trump's face, even something as blinding obvious to everyone as the material he did send in confidence, then I agree that he would have had to go. But he didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:56 AM

That's how you see it. To me, it looks more like the Brexit supporters are unwilling to reflect on how Trump throwing his weight around and our apparent willingness to capitulate shows the vacuousness of the sovereignty claims they have been making.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM

The MPs are all wriggling trying to shift blame.Sovereignty does not enter the equation. The ambassador's goose was cooked. He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered. His was not. Once it hit the public domain his position was untenable. That is what caused his termination regardless of whether he jumped or was pushed.
Diplomacy is about being diplomatic, the ambassador was not. Had he described you in such terms would you want anything to do with him?
Sovereignty has absolutely nothing to do with the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter

Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.


Nice quote about 'constructive dismissal', but it doesn't appear to support your argument. It describes such dismissal as caused by the employer, and you were saying Trump caused the registration/dismissal. Trump is/was not the employer of Kim Darroch, so this definition doesn't fit the situation.


As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter. The UK can still appoint an ambassador, but the country he/she is sent to can still choose whether to interact with that ambassador. The chosen person then needs to be mutually acceptable to the two countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:55 PM

And. I see you cannot mention sovereignty either, Iains. Here is an extract from the Hansard debate. The views expressed here are quite typical of the whole debate:

===

Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
May I first welcome the comments of my friend the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my right hon. Friend the Minister? This has been a very difficult moment for British diplomacy, and it is worth thinking about why that is so.

This is a direct challenge to a sovereign nation and its ability to nominate its own representative. If sovereignty does not allow a nation to choose its own representative, frankly, what is it but servitude? That is why Britain must stand up for our envoys. If we do not think that they are up to it, we must replace them, but we must not be bullied into seeing them kicked out or silenced. May I therefore ask my right hon. Friend to assure me, and everyone in this House, that Her Majesty’s Government will always stand up for those we send abroad, military or civilian, and back them as necessary, in the interests of the British people and no one else.

====

Most people agree that the leaker should be found and suffer any relevant penalty. Richard Tice, the Brexit Party MEP, speaking on Newsnight last night, did not think the police should be involved in investigating this, and was very much of the "move on and let's appoint a businessman instead of a civil servant" mind set, but almost everyone else seems to take the leak more seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM

I wonder what a knobwhappet is? Even the internet does not offer an explanation. Obviously run out of counter arguments so resorts to the fallback position of the left, so I presume it is some kind of insult.
What a sad little fellow.Most people try to find constructive things to do in their retirement.

I find it no surprise the ambassador resigned. His cover was blown and his usefulness thereby finished. Who in their right mind thinks he could just carry on as normal after trashing the head of state of the country he was assigned to? They must be living in a fantasy world.
    The real question to be answered is who leaked the document and was it transmitted by electronic means or by diplomatic bag. Opinions of that sort of sensitivity should have had the highest levels of security.
It is expected that ambassador's opinions are candid, that is an essential part of their remit. But, by the same token such findings should not be on public view to accompany the bacon and eggs of a sunday breakfast. Those guilty of the leak must be identified and severely punished. Secrecy is an essential part of diplomacy and it is essential that it is maintained, regardless of what his opinions were. They were never meant for public consumption.


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