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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

David Carter (UK) 14 Apr 19 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM
The Sandman 14 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 01:26 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Apr 19 - 02:05 AM
DMcG 15 Apr 19 - 02:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Apr 19 - 05:02 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Apr 19 - 05:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 19 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 19 - 08:31 AM
DMcG 15 Apr 19 - 12:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 19 - 01:18 PM
DMcG 15 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Apr 19 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Apr 19 - 08:19 PM
DMcG 16 Apr 19 - 03:07 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 03:40 AM
peteaberdeen 16 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM
DMcG 16 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Apr 19 - 06:07 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM
DMcG 16 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Apr 19 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 19 - 08:01 AM
Iains 18 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 03:36 AM
Iains 18 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 19 - 04:54 AM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Apr 19 - 11:05 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:37 AM

Corbyn is not a member of the communist party. That is a verifiable fact. "Vicious bigot" is a matter of opinion, mine is that Farage fits that description, he certainly fits it more closely than he does your "mightily esteemed". He represents no majority, and he never did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

""Vicious bigot" is a matter of opinion, mine is that Farage fits that description, "
Sums him up perfectly - it takes a true 'patriot' to insult the British people by claiming that this scum-bucket represents anybody but the lower depths of society - anybody making such a claim must really despise the British people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM

with a new party formed that will effectively split the vote between ukip and the farage party


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM

Here is a EU link explaining how the voting sytems used in the EU elections work

It makes interesting reading, because they are very different to what we have in other elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:26 AM

I decided to step it up and take a look at Google Scholar. This caught my eye because of the mudcat troll activity over the years that was particularly disparaging of some of the European immigrants, singling out Polish immigrants and communities. "Second, the paper argues that Polish nationals' spatial practices have been shaped by anti-immigrant discourse and sentiment surrounding the Brexit vote. In particular, local public spaces are viewed simultaneously as sites of potential conflict and sites of meaningful intercultural engagement and everyday citizenship." I've only read the abstract so far, this is a link so I can read it later and perhaps it will add something useful to this very long-winded discussion.

Rescaling belonging in “Brexit Britain”: Spatial identities and practices of Polish nationals in Scotland after the U.K. Referendum on European Union membership

Abstract
This paper discusses how the 2016 U.K. Referendum on European Union membership has shaped the spatial identities and practices of Polish nationals living in Scotland. On the basis of original qualitative data collected in Edinburgh after the referendum, we make two key arguments. First, the referendum was a catalyst for Polish nationals to rescale spatial identities and challenge normative definitions of nationalism and citizenship. We highlight the role of emotion as a key driver in this process, showing that multiscalar attachments to place and strategies for onward mobility, adaptation, and integration after Brexit are constructed through emotionality. Second, the paper argues that Polish nationals' spatial practices have been shaped by anti-immigrant discourse and sentiment surrounding the Brexit vote. In particular, local public spaces are viewed simultaneously as sites of potential conflict and sites of meaningful intercultural engagement and everyday citizenship. A broader aim of the paper is to advance feminist theory and praxis in population geography through a focus on nonhierarchical and relational scales of experience to better understand migrant identities and practices in a changing Europe.


The full text is at the link.

This one also follows that train of thought: “Where are we going to go now?” European Union migrants' experiences of hostility, anxiety, and (non?)belonging during Brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:05 AM

If Switzerland can overturn a flawed referendum, I wonder why the UK does’tt seem capable of doing the same thing in regard to a referendum which was flawed completely, and on every level?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:24 AM

Thanks for that, SRS. It is an interesting paper, though I have to say that when it uses terms like 'coconstition of Brexit geopolitics' I fear expressions may be being used in specialist senses I do not fully understand. Not the paper's fault, of course: it is aimed at other academics with that shared understanding I may lack. Also, that the paper is based on 15 interviews does call into question how representative a sample this is. With those caveats, there seemed to be a fair amount in it. One thing I found striking was how - oversimplifying greatly - the viewpoint of Leavers is often focused on the 'top level' concepts of things like 'sovereignty', 'national interest' and such like, whereas Remainers are often focused on how individuals are affected by all this. It is a crude simplification, of course, as both care about both, but that difference is, I think, present. The paper reflects this, and is largely about how the individuals interviewed deal with pressures at both levels.

Definitely worth a read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM

The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. Yet brexiteers love to analyse it thus. That's because they see the stats as "confirming" that the result was clear cut. Well it wasn't. It was tight. And the stuff about "northern constituencies," etc, being leave is bullshittery. The fact is that a large majority of Labour voters voted remain everywhere, just about, and an even larger majority of Labour members voted remain.

I have no interest in analysing the vote on constituency lines. As Steve points out, that's not how the referendum was run.
Nor was it run on party lines, so comments about a large Labour majority for remain is also pointless.
Similarly, as it was a single referendum, there is no point in saying "Scotland voted with a large majority to remain".

If Steve wishes to ignore claims about how constituencies voted, then any other breakdown of the vote must be equally irrelevant.

The result of the referendum was approximately 52:48 in favour of leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

Well I suppose that the breakdown by party would be helpful to party leaderships in informing them of the general sentiment among their supporters. The reason I raised it was in order to counter the oft-made claim that most Labour-held seats ("in Labour's working class northern heartlands," etc) voted leave. Statistically correct, but if you say it, whilst neglecting to say that most Labour voters in those constituencies voted remain, you're being a bit of a scoundrel, aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:02 AM

But I haven't said that, so I'm unsure who you're calling a scoundrel.
But if "labour constituencies" voted leave then if they contain a majority of Labour voters then the Labour voters would have had a convincing effect on the referendum (locally) so it is only if a suitable number of labour voters voted Leave that the constituency would show an overall leave vote. But, for the purpose of this vote, constituencies are an irrelevancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM

Out of the closet time for the Brexiteers, it appears
Black Labour MP, David Lammey has declared the extremist Brexiteers to the Nazis, pointing out that Rees Mogg,s website now carries a video by the German Neo Nazi Party AfD, on his website   
HIS PAST IS CATCHING UP WITH HIM, IT APPEARS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:55 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM
Out of the closet time for the Brexiteers, it appears
Black Labour MP, David Lammey has declared the extremist Brexiteers to the Nazis,


I believe that the use of 'Black' as a descriptor for a person is now considered racist, should one who complains about pejorative terms being used about the Irish be using such descriptions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM

Using the term "black" to describe someone's ethnic background is neither racist not offensive. Calling someone a bog trotter is both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 06:32 AM

"I believe that the use of 'Black' as a descriptor for a person is now considered racist,"
Of course it isn't - black people refer to themselves as such - it has a relevance here as one of yours makes a point of targeting black MPs
I have little doubt that Mr Lammey has undergone the same treatment as are many in today's Brave New Britain - it most certainly has relevance to Lord Snooty's new-found friends
You are now rather crudely avoiding the issue Nigel - who's to blame you ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM

I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 08:31 AM

The terms used offensively for members of minorities subject to some kind of unfair treatment move around all the time. Not just minorities either - being in the majority has rarely saved women from this kind of thing.

"Black" currently is inoffensive, "Coloured" is not. One time it was the other way round. "Queer" has been very much an insult, now it's used positively.

The thing is racists etc can be relied on to use just about any expression in an insulting way, and sooner or later that tarnishes the word. And set against that there is a tradition of taking a word that has been used as an insult and using it with pride.

Get rid of the bigotry and words just become words. But that's quite an ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 12:13 PM

Similarly, as it was a single referendum, there is no point in saying "Scotland voted with a large majority to remain".

That depends entirely on what question you are asking. If you are considering the possibility of a Scottish referendum on independence, it is highly relevant.

Few people seem to be considering that if they vote for independence we might be into Irish Border Question: The Sequel.   Feel free to resolutely avoid thinking about such questions if you wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:18 PM

The difference would be the SNP wouldn't have the same objections that the DUP has about that backstop being a threat to the Union. They aren't Unionists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM

That is true, McGrath. But as the EU said they are - in principle - prepared to have Scotland as a member after an independence vote, we may have two land borders with the EU, not one. And all the issues of phytosanitory checks etc would apply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:35 PM

Although May has repeatedly talked the hard talk about allowing no-deal to remain on the table (and it is still the default scenario), according to those in her "inner circle", her bottom-line worry is the breakup of the union. And an Irish border poll is a real possibility, even a likelihood, if Britain leaves without an agreement in place. (I don't know why the DUP don't take that threat more seriously, considering the likely outcome under such circumstances. But they're good deniers, and totally blinkered.) You can bet Scotland wouldn't be far behind.

May's private illuminati (whoever they are - or were as of 4th April) have the following to say. Stay tuned.

- - -

"No-deal is better than a bad deal" was Theresa May's mantra for two years, making clear that Britain would walk away from negotiations with the EU if necessary. Her statement after the marathon cabinet meeting on Tuesday night, however, put paid to that. In a move which threatened to split her party - always something she had sought to avoid - Mrs May dramatically changed strategy and announced she would seek a deal with Labour support.

What changed her mind? I have been told by government insiders and those close to the prime minister that the answer is the UK union. One of her inner circle said: 'She's fixated on the union. No-deal clearly puts huge strain on the Irish border and the consequence is that a border poll becomes a real possibility. She thinks it would be high risk, and if it succeeded there would be a great impetus to Scotland. It could be that serious in terms of the breakup of the UK.'

Two other government sources told Sky News they believed the union was the decisive factor in Mrs May's thinking. One said: 'It was the union. The prospect of direct rule and some of the decisions that would need to be made in that situation are very unpalatable.' Another source added that the prospect of a border poll in Northern Ireland was 'very real' and something that other cabinet ministers were also concerned about...

In January, shortly before cancelling her second meaningful vote, Theresa May told the House of Commons: 'To those who think we should reject this deal in favour of no deal because we cannot get every assurance we want, I ask what a no-deal Brexit would do to strengthen the hand of those campaigning for Scottish independence or indeed of those demanding a border poll in Northern Ireland. Surely that is the real threat to our Union.'

To those familiar with her thinking, the impression is that the prime minister has become increasingly swayed by this argument.


4th April 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/why-did-theresa-may-ditch-a-no-deal-brexit-11683841


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

Without Scotland there wouldn't be a United Kingdom anyway, Northern Ireland and Wales aren't kingdoms, unlike Scotland. The Union of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland, maybe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 08:19 PM

Not sure I get your point. If the two Irelands reunite - which they can do if there’s a mutual will for it - then the North is no longer part of the UK, but joins the Republic.

Scotland’s drive to be independent has been made very clear, as has their widespread resentment about being pulled out of the EU against their majority’s will, and Europe has indicated willingness to accept them into the fold if they break away.

This would then diminish the United Kingdom - i.e. “the Union” - to just England and Wales. What is the point of quibbling over semantics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:07 AM

Presumably we also remove the Scottish and Irish aspects of the flag, so we end up with just the English flag?

I went to a lecture on St George around 6 months ago, and it turns out the red cross on a white background is not St George's flag after all - early paintings show a completely different flag. In fact, according to the lecturer, the thing we call St George's flag was adopted in (I think) the 16th century from the city flag of Milan. St George is also patron saint of Milan, and someone confused the saint's flag with the city one. There is some irony in the very flag arising from confusion with Europe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:40 AM

Irish Unity has been on the cards for some time now - the gap between the two groups has lessened considerably and there is now pressure from both sides for it
The major factors appear to have been the reassessment of the position of the Catholic Church brought about by the abuse disclosures in the Republic and the intransigence on issues such as pregnancy termination, same sex marriage and woman's rights in the North   
The DUP no longer has an overall majority and has to rely on co-operation of other parties
It seems to me that the end of the artificial division was inevitable, the economic effects of Brexit and the threat to the peace negotiation are just the icing on the long-awaited cake
I look forward to it happening
Probably the only good to have come out of this long-running farce, though it's a crying shame that it should ever been inflicted on the British people
I would love to see Scotland take their destiny in their own hands, but I'm not sure about a one-policy party with no long-term game plan - maybe the development of a Deep-Fried Mars Bar industry :-)   
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM

see you, jimmy - careful with the weary, old patronising stereotypes there. i'm in scotland -well, glasgow- about once a fortnight and it doesn't need saying how many advantages scotland could gain from independence. (i'll take your mars bar and raise you oil, water, renenwables, partick thistle, central station, whisky and shitloads of money) once we get rid of paying for nuclear weaponry, crossrail, hs2 and many other english (usually london) financial projects we can do just fine. and - post-brexit- many english based firms will have advantages in relocating north.
once we have SNP led independence they will have given up their USP and become just another party and presumably will not do so well. as there is PR in the (vastly superior) scottish parliament, coalitions will be more probable and the more progressive nature of scottish politics should ensure better government than what they currently endure from westminster - what's not to like?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM

Ha ha, it didn't take you long to include the football team that Billy Connolly thought was called "Partick Nil!"

You forgot to mention Scotland's greatest products, namely Bill Shankly (aka God), Kenny Dalglish and Graham Souness...Andy Robertson...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM

"see you, jimmy - careful with the weary, old patronising stereotypes there. i'm in scotland -well, glasgow-"
You must excuse my somewhat wry humour - I got it from my Dad who was born in Glasgow (don't know if The Ridgeway is still there)
I know well that Scotland is fully capable of standing on its own two feet - probably more-so than Britain now, as things stand at present
I just haven't made up my mind about the SNP yet
You are aware of course that one of Ireland's greatest heroes (certainly our family's), James Connolly, was born in Edinburgh
I have to say that one of the few football matches I ever attended - a Celtic/Rangers derby, was the first time I'd ever seen men in cages

"You forgot to mention Scotland's greatest products"
And you forgot to mention Alec Douglas Home - but we all have our cross to bear   
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM

MGoH: Without Scotland there wouldn't be a United Kingdom anyway, Northern Ireland and Wales aren't kingdoms, unlike Scotland.
That is irrelevant. Scotland isn't a kingdom either (now). The countries are united under a single 'kingdom' which would continue even if the number of constituent parts was reduced. The clue is in the title "United Kingdom", otherwise it would be "United Kingdoms".

Bonnie Shaljean: Not sure I get your point. If the two Irelands reunite - which they can do if there's a mutual will for it - then the North is no longer part of the UK, but joins the Republic.
That is some assumption. There is still the question (which I've put to Jim a few times with no good response) that even if Ireland re-united (requiring agreement from residents of both halves), would it re-unite as a single country (Republic of Ireland) as part of the EU, or would the Republic become part of Northern Ireland, and thus part of the UK. The answer to this question would need to be clear before any referendums were held about re-unification.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM

Ummm, no... the Republic isn't going to become part of the UK. It's an independent republic. If that really needs clarifying at official level, it can be done. Re-read Theresa May's address to Parliament below.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM

would it re-unite as a single country (Republic of Ireland) as part of the EU, or would the Republic become part of Northern Ireland, and thus part of the UK.

Given the history of the Republic, is that a serious question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:07 AM

Similarly reunification for the North to become part of the republic of Ireland would be a change to their position, leaving the UK, and becoming a part of the EU.
Yes. it was a serious question, and one that I feel should be made totally clear by anyone who suggests that the two parts of Ireland should vote for reunification.
It is all very well to claim that it is obvious, or that one of Mrs May's speeches makes it clear, but this whole discussion seems to be created by ambiguities in the Brexit referendum which people claim were unclear at the time of the vote. Let's not go down that route again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM

Fine by me. But I still think it's a head-scratchingly strange question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM

Similarly reunification for the North to become part of the republic of Ireland would be a change to their position, leaving the UK, and becoming a part of the EU.
Yes. it was a serious question, and one that I feel should be made totally clear by anyone who suggests that the two parts of Ireland should vote for reunification.


Then let me be totally clear. There are very few countries, to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, that fight for and win independence and then decide to re-unify with the opponent, and particularly not in a way that hands the ultimate authority back to the old opponent. It is of course theoretically possible, just as it is possible for say India to decide to become subject to British rule, but in both cases I think it vanishingly unlikely and a fantastical notion. In my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM

" Let's not go down that route again."
Nothing other than leaving was made clear at the time of the vote, that's why the whole thing has turned into the farce it has become
The UK is a a misnomer and always has been, it is the result of past conquests and as far as Ireland goes, was brought about by threat of invasion - nothing 'united' about that
Scotland us, in fact Governed by an unelected Government - go count the number of Conservative MPs
The annexation of a state or part of a state with a separate culture and history is a most unnatural act and is destined to lead to disruption and even violence - when you annex part of a a state then give two thirds of the people dominance over the other third you create the time bomb that the six counties have always been
Now that England has reached a decision which adversely affects the annexed counties the chickens have finally come home to roost big time - Britain is now relying on a sectarian party to force through the most important decision it has ever had to make - a real tiger by the tail
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM

In my 2:35 post just above, what I said was:

... an Irish border poll is a real possibility, even a likelihood, if Britain leaves without an agreement in place.

If there ends up being no deal, do you really, really, really, really, really, really think Ireland - which is a nation in its own hard-fought right, remember - would voluntarily choose to give up her independence, her seat at the table of a large stable trading bloc, and its funding support, to cleave unto a foundering Britain who has cast herself adrift, with the population deeply riven? Seriously?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:39 AM

Anything’s possible on Planet Nigs, Bonnie. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

"would it re-unite as a single country"
If you visited the North, you wouldn't need to ask that question Nigel
Once you leave behind the enforced politics of the North at an time other than 'The Glorious Twelfth', you would see that any divisions are political other than social ones
There are, of course, factions caused by the built in inequality of partition, but once that is removed, there are no grounds for division
People from the South travel North with no problem and vise versa - you need to come to this town during, say, The Willie Clancy Summer School, or visit one of the Norther Singing or Music weekends to see how they get on
We came to this town when the hunger strikers were dying - black flags bedecking the street and Prods and Catholics playing, singing talking and drinking in the packed bars
We travel the North regularly - now the border is gone you don't know you're in a different country - except the Brits kept the best land for themselves - The Empire was always like that
This is in imposed division - remove the reason for there being a difference and there isn't one
I suggest you look up the change in percentages of those who want a United Ireland - on both sides of the divide
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM

Here is an example of what Jim is talking about. And it happened in the late 70s. The height of the Troubles. I wasn't there to witness this, but my (English-born) husband was.

Michael had won the All Britain Fleadh in bodhrán, and this entitled him to compete in the All Ireland, which was being held that year in Buncrana, Co. Donegal - only about 12 miles or so from the Derry border, with Derry city just beyond it.

The Irish of all stripes love their music, and they're good at it. One reason for this is that a lot of the children start playing very young, schools are fertile breeding ground, and a natural thing to do is form them into marching bands. And marching bands mean parades.

So: a Fleadh, loads of talented kids with instruments, and a deep division between Orange and Green, over which people are dying regularly just the other side of the Foyle. Hence, there would be not one parade, but two. Starting at opposite ends of the town, each heading towards the centre. At the same time. A Catholic band striding down the high street from one side, a Protestant one from the other, both playing their music at full blast. High Noon in Buncrana.

Michael watched with mounting unease as the two sides kept moving relentlessly towards the middle, approaching nearer and nearer until they faced off, and...

marched through each other. In organised lines. Never dropped a step, never missed a beat, never fluffed a note. Straight. Through. And on out the far end, the two tunes mingling in the air behind them.

Michael says he never saw anything like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

That's a charming story!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

It was "United Kingdoms" originally when James I and VI came down to London, referring to England with Wales and Scotland. The term United Kingdom only seems to have been used from the Irish Act of Union in 1801.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:01 AM

As for Nigel's "The countries are united under a single 'kingdom' which would continue even if the number of constituent parts was reduced," that doesn't follow. Even if Scotland decides to stick with a monarchy with the same Queen or King as England, that wouldn't mean a single kingdom, any more than it does for Canada, Australia and some other countries. Noone would dream of suggesting those were part of the UK.bb


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM

Prime Minister Theresa May promised European leaders that the U.K. would participate in next month's elections in order to secure a Brexit extension, though the country can still avoid that fate if the House of Commons is able to pass a deal before May 23. If Brits who favor remaining in the European Union thought holding European elections might bolster their position and undermine a push toward Brexit, this latest poll suggests they could be very, very wrong.

By the numbers, per YouGov:

    Brexit Party: 27%
    Labour Party: 22%
    Conservative Party: 15%
    Green Party: 10%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    UKIP: 7%
    Change U.K.: 6%


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM

The full figures for the poll Iains referred to are here

The composition of the Brexit party is striking.


Affiliation last election:
42% voted conservative
10% voted Labour.


The age breakdown is:


18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%
50-64: 34%
65+: 42%


Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:36 AM

Sorry, I used the shorthand of 'Brexit Party' when I should have referred to the weighted figures for people who expressed an intention to vote for the Brexit party. I have no figures on the actual membership of the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM

Striking confirmation of the old adage:
For the young to be socialist indicates they have a heart.
For the old to be socialist indicates they have no brain!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:54 AM

Farage The Brexit Fraud Keeps On Lying

Nothing new there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

The problem with quoting adages is they can be a good example of confirmation bias. They need to be hadled with care. For instance we could quote:

The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.


- which is much more about declining into narrowness than supposed gain in wisdom. The history of the adage Iains gave, by the way, is very uncertain but seems to be talking about support for the French revolution in its earlier forms and did not refer to socialists as such, though some might view the idea of égalité in that light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM

By way of a bit of light relief

I would tell 500 lies

Scroll down and play the video. It's worth it

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM

Can we please stop falling for the nonsense, chaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:05 AM

Stop responding to trolls, please.


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