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BS: shakespeare

The Sandman 16 Jan 19 - 05:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jan 19 - 09:14 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Jan 19 - 10:31 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM
Charmion 16 Jan 19 - 10:47 AM
keberoxu 16 Jan 19 - 01:18 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 19 - 01:32 PM
The Sandman 16 Jan 19 - 02:23 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 19 - 02:28 PM
Stanron 16 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM
G-Force 16 Jan 19 - 02:49 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Jan 19 - 02:58 PM
Jos 16 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM
David Carter (UK) 17 Jan 19 - 02:34 PM
Amergin 17 Jan 19 - 03:48 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jan 19 - 03:53 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Jan 19 - 04:21 PM
Mr Red 18 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM
Neil D 19 Jan 19 - 02:56 AM
The Sandman 19 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 05:36 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Jan 19 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 06:39 AM
Jos 19 Jan 19 - 06:47 AM
KarenH 19 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Jan 19 - 07:27 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Jan 19 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 08:40 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 08:40 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 09:34 AM
Senoufou 19 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 19 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM
Mr Red 19 Jan 19 - 12:25 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 19 - 01:04 PM
The Sandman 19 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 19 - 03:28 AM
The Sandman 20 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM
Mr Red 20 Jan 19 - 04:51 AM
The Sandman 20 Jan 19 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 19 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 19 - 05:15 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 20 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 19 - 05:38 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 06:42 AM
The Sandman 20 Jan 19 - 09:14 AM
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Subject: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 05:02 AM

in my opinion his content of historical plays he shows himself to be an establishment lackey. however he does write beautifully. how do thers feel about his work


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 09:14 AM

I think they are much ado about nothing but if that is as you like it then all's well that ends well.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 10:31 AM

I like the Henry IV's and Richard II - I saw Timothy Dalton play Hal at the Roundhouse in London years ago, and also thought the Beeb's Hollow Crown series was superb (worth the price of the DVDs just for the banish-not-Falstaff scene alone). On the strength of that, I've bought, but not yet watched, the next plays in the line. Looking forward to Cumberbatch as Richard III, and also Sophie Okonedo, who's long been a fave of mine.

Wish WS had written a play about Queen Elizabeth & Mary Queen of Scots, but he wouldn't have dared, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM

PS (to address the actual topic raised): I don't see any particular establishment-lackeyism in the above works I referred to, and am not exactly sure how that term is being defined here. As we know, Shakespeare's historical accuracy is sometimes - shall we say - a bit fanciful. But (a) he had to consider his plays in a commercial bums-on-seats (or bums-on-ground) context, which meant providing a strong dramatic line; and (b) he still had to be a bit careful of what he said, owing to the prevailing politics of the day, and also which powerful families he was in danger of offending. It concentrates the mind wonderfully.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 10:47 AM

I live in Stratford, Ontario, where Shakespeare is what brings in the punters to the theatre festival that keeps this town alive and prospering. Many come for the Culture with a capital C, and then come back because the plots blow their socks off.

Coriolanus did that for me last summer, despite the director’s misguided attempts to put a gay “love that dare not speak its name” spin on the relationship between Coriolanus and his ex-enemy and friend in need, Aegidius.

One problem with the Bard is that he’s so canonical — and so free of copyright — that impresarios can’t resist screwing around with the plays any way they can think of. Our female Prospero was okay, but casting a woman — even a great actor — as Julius Caesar was just silly. I hope I never see Othello played by a blonde woman in dreadlocks, but I fear it’s but a matter of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 01:18 PM

Well, The Merchant of Venice is one of several problematic dramas here.

It is Shakespeare's genius to give a superb speech to Shylock -- Hath not a Jew eyes? and so on -- and he still plays to the gallery by having Shylock shut down, by the law, before the pardon that spares Shylock his life.

Likewise, before Portia, disguised as a man, lays down the law on Shylock and his desired pound of flesh, Shakespeare gives her the superlative "The quality of mercy" speech.

It seems as though the playwright wants it both ways in that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 01:32 PM

I saw Dame Judith Anderson as Hamlet 40 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 02:23 PM

Bonnie, let us take the play Richard the third , S portrayed Richard in a certain way , why because he was writing during the period   1580 T0 1616, WHO WAS ON THE THRONE/?Elizabeth I (7 September 1533 – 24 March 1603) was Queen of England and Ireland from 17 November 1558 until her death on 24 March 1603. SHE WAS THE GRANDAUGHTER OF HENRY 7 TH WHO DEFEATED RICHARD THE THIRD.
THE PLAY IS BIASED TOWARDS THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT OF THE TIME AND DOUBTS MUST BE CAST ON ITS FACTUAL ACCURACY, he was an establishment poodle


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 02:28 PM

A guy's gotta eat.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM

The Sandman wrote: he was an establishment poodle
Had he written against the Queen or the Queen's family he would have died quite quickly. There were very different rules back then.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: G-Force
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 02:49 PM

Sandman, if you were living in North Korea would you be singing songs critical of the Kim dynasty? I don't think so. So you'd be a lackey too.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 02:58 PM

Re-read my post, Dick. It's not genealogy that drives leaders, it's the power currents of their own times and situations. And I did already mention WS's historical inaccuracies. But he's also engaging with universal psychological truths, as good dramatists must.

I'm not commenting any further here, though that's no fault of yours or anyone else in this thread. But after what's just happened in Parliament, I'm in no mood for any kind of political analyses, even if they took place centuries ago. Switching the internet off, gonna eat a pizza, watch a DVD, and find something alcoholic to drink. Not necessarily in that order.

Sorry if I sound crabby. I AM crabby.

#WTFhappensnow?


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jos
Date: 16 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM

"#WT*happensnow?"

Just more of the same, I suspect - round and round and going nowhere ...


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jan 19 - 02:34 PM

Of course Shakespeare was an establishment lackey. He had seen what happened to Marlowe.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Jan 19 - 03:48 PM

Well the asinine opening post is obviously much ado about nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 19 - 03:53 PM

Coriol anus


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 19 - 04:21 PM

Bonnie, let us take the play Richard the third , S portrayed Richard in a certain way , why because he was writing during the period   1580 T0 1616, WHO WAS ON THE THRONE/?Elizabeth I (7 September 1533 – 24 March 1603) was Queen of England and Ireland from 17 November 1558 until her death on 24 March 1603. SHE WAS THE GRANDAUGHTER OF HENRY 7 TH WHO DEFEATED RICHARD THE THIRD.
THE PLAY IS BIASED TOWARDS THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT OF THE TIME AND DOUBTS MUST BE CAST ON ITS FACTUAL ACCURACY, he was an establishment poodle


Why does any of the above make him 'an establishment poodle'? He was born during the reign of Elizabeth. Is he likely to have had any access to information on the history of royalty other than that which was current (and acceptable) at that time?


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

And why is Bill Shake full of quotations? A bit cliché if you ask me.

And the company that owned the Globe (or was it the Rose?) - didn't they also have a bear baiting pit next door?


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Neil D
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 02:56 AM

Coriol anus. Huh-huh, huh-huh. That's pretty funny Beavis.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM

Christopher Marlowe,[1] also known as Kit Marlowe (/'m??rlo?/; baptised 26 February 1564 – 30 May 1593), was an English playwright, poet and translator of the Elizabethan era. Marlowe was the foremost Elizabethan tragedian of his day.[2] He greatly influenced William Shakespeare, who was born in the same year as Marlowe and who rose to become the pre-eminent Elizabethan playwright after Marlowe's mysterious early death. Marlowe's plays are known for the use of blank verse and their overreaching protagonists.

A warrant was issued for Marlowe's arrest on 18 May 1593. No reason was given for it, though it was thought to be connected to allegations of blasphemy—a manuscript believed to have been written by Marlowe was said to contain "vile heretical conceipts". On 20 May, he was brought to the court to attend upon the Privy Council for questioning. There is no record of their having met that day, however, and he was commanded to attend upon them each day thereafter until "licensed to the contrary". Ten days later, he was stabbed to death by Ingram Frizer. Whether or not the stabbing was connected to his arrest remains unknown.[3]


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 05:36 AM

It seems to me Shakespeare needs to be judged in context of the uneasy times he was living in - the uneasy period following the despotism of Henry VIII and the insanity of anti Catholicism which made open criticism of the establishment a dodgy exercise - in the circumstances, I don't think he did too badly
If you saw the magnificent Shakespeare 'War of the Roses' compendium - 'The Hollow Crown, the monarchy can hardly be said to have gotten of lightly

Far from being "clichéd" (lacking in original thought) Shakespeare's writings were original though - all his on work, and beautifully executed
Early this week we saw a filmed live performance of 'Richard II' for the first time
I thought it a poor production - based entirely in one room (a large metal box), with a cast of excellent actors playing multiple parts
Despite the difficulty of following the plot and working out who was who, the beautiful use of language still made the experience an enjoyable one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 06:32 AM

Also remember the trouble Shakespeare's father got into for his Catholic leanings & sympathies, at a time when this drew harsh punishments; so his name was already tainted. And then there are those ten "missing years" in the known facts of his life - which I think Michael Wood has solved (his TV documentary In Search Of Shakespeare is excellent). Scholars still aren't sure whether WS himself was a "closet Papist" or not - which doesn't matter now, but sure as hell did then. He really had to tread carefully, AND make a living, with a family to support. You can't impose 21st-century liberal sensibilities on a Renaissance artist trying to survive under a very different social and political system.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 06:39 AM

When somebody can point to a work as universally and timelessly brilliant and relevant as Hamlet they may start to have a point
The beauty of the language still brings a lump to the throat - never fails
Just thinking about it....!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 06:47 AM

Jim, did it really not occur to you that the comment about Shakespeare's "cliché" just might have been a little joke ... ?


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: KarenH
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM

May I put in a word for Ben Elton's brilliant series on Shakespeare? At first I didn't like the choice of actor for Shakespeare, but now I think it was inspired.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 07:27 AM

What series is that, Karen? I'm certainly interested to know more - is there a link anywhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM

Do you mean the film All Is True? Haven't seen it, but now want to, so thanks for the prompt!


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 07:41 AM

Ah, Upstart Crow I bet...


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 08:40 AM

"Jim, did it really not occur to you that the comment about Shakespeare's "cliché" just might have been a little joke ... ?"
If it was, I apologise - I have heard in said in all seriousness before now though

The best series of programmes on Shakespeare, 'My Shakespeare' was broadcast on Sky Arts (before it lost a channel and was dumbed down) filmed different leading actors talking about their various roles - I saved most of them and replay them occasionally - a really magnificent series of analyses of the characters they played
The one disappointment was David Tennant who, I thought, somewhat trivialised Hamlet
Just learned that Benedict Cumberbach's Hamlet is due for a screening in a couple of weeks in our local Arts Centre

One of the greatest surprises was Al Pachino's 'Merchant of Venice' - a play I have always had trouble with - approached superbly and sensitively
It was an odd, uplifting experience watching it one afternoon in the Galway Multiplex
We chose our seats in a near-empty cinema and, just before the film started about a dozen schoolgirls, unaccompanied, sat down a couple of rows in front of us
We expected fidgeting and chatting throughout - instead, rapt attention for the whole performance, followed by excited discussion #
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 08:40 AM

"Jim, did it really not occur to you that the comment about Shakespeare's "cliché" just might have been a little joke ... ?"
If it was, I apologise - I have heard in said in all seriousness before now though

The best series of programmes on Shakespeare, 'My Shakespeare' was broadcast on Sky Arts (before it lost a channel and was dumbed down) filmed different leading actors talking about their various roles - I saved most of them and replay them occasionally - a really magnificent series of analyses of the characters they played
The one disappointment was David Tennant who, I thought, somewhat trivialised Hamlet
Just learned that Benedict Cumberbach's Hamlet is due for a screening in a couple of weeks in our local Arts Centre

One of the greatest surprises was Al Pachino's 'Merchant of Venice' - a play I have always had trouble with - approached superbly and sensitively
It was an odd, uplifting experience watching it one afternoon in the Galway Multiplex
We chose our seats in a near-empty cinema and, just before the film started about a dozen schoolgirls, unaccompanied, sat down a couple of rows in front of us
We expected fidgeting and chatting throughout - instead, rapt attention for the whole performance, followed by excited discussion #
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM

Jim, is that Sky Arts programme available on DVD anywhere? It sounds fascinating and I'd love to see it. Ditto this (speaking of Al Pacino):

Looking For Richard

I have heard it said in all seriousness before now though

Gawd, so have I. About how he's soooooo boring, nothing but a load of old quotes...


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 09:34 AM

"Jim, is that Sky Arts programme available on DVD anywhere? "Don't know Bonnie - maybe through Sky
There are about ten of them I think - I don't think they are available, but we've just purchased a film receiver which includes a channel for television box sets - I'll check it out later
It would be wonderful if Sky re-ran it
I enjoyed 'Looking for Richard' too
We have a DVD of Orson Welles'Chimes at Midnight' (Falstaff) waiting to be viewed - I thoroughly enjoyed it first time around (a lifetime ago)
I would highly recommend 'Ran' to anybody who hasn't seen it - a magnificent Japanese re-adaptation of King Lear (Kirosawa) with a malevolent Lady Macbeth thrown in for good measure   
Last year we saw the filmed live performance of 'The Merry Wives of Windsor' from The National - never quite made my mind up about it - it was directed by a self-confessed fan of 'The Only Way is Essex' which obviously influenced her approach - great fun, but it ain't Shakespeare
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM

I studied Shakespeare for my A levels (Othello was my favourite of all) and when I arrived for my first lecture in Eng Lit at University, the lecturer began with a list of stuff we had to 'read, learn and inwardly digest'.

He stood there and sternly demanded we familiarise ourselves with 'the entire works of Shakespeare, Chaucer, all the Romance poets, Robert Burns, the Brontes....' and on and on.

I already had a huge list of literature to study for my main subject (French), not to mention Soc Anth., Moral Phil., Sociology, Linguistics, Phonetics etc.

I was only seventeen, very tiny and thin, and staggered out of the University Bookshop with a huge pile of heavy books (the Library was excellent, but the Arts Faculty students had taken out most of the set books already) and tottering to the bus stop to my Halls of Residence. I wore a tatty duffel coat and a massive Edinburgh scarf which almost hid me from sight.

I wished Shakespeare had written rather fewer blooming plays!


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for all mouth-watering heads-ups, Jim - I'll check out as many of them as I can (tho we don't subscribe to $ky).

I second your recommendation of Ran, which I saw on the big screen (remember those?) aeons ago. Changing the daughters into sons so that one of them could have a Lady-MacBeth-wife was inspired. Her even-more-artificial-than-usual eyebrows, relentlessly grey-toned attire, and flat, affectless voice rendered her utterly chilling.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 10:07 AM

YOU MIGHT TRY HERE BONNIE

I suppose everybody knows the story of Richard Burton's Shakespeare experience with Richard III
He was sitting in The Lamb, in a backstreet off St Martins Lane, a favourite hangout for actors appearing in the local theatres, when he made the acquaintance of two visitors to London
After a while he told them he had complimentary tickets to a current performance of Richard III and asked them if they'd care to join him
They settled down in their excellent seats and, as the curtain rose, he whispered to them "You know, I'm really pleased with my interpretation of Richard in the first act..... OH SHIT"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM

"(remember those?)"
We have revived our visits to the cinema greatly recently, but the only way we can get to see the films that interest us is to travel to galway (60 miles) or Dublin - usually a two/three night stop taking in as many as we can in the tame (our record is six films in three days)
Just got back from Galway, where we saw 'Stan and Ollie' (highly pleasurable), Richard II (good but should have been better) and 'The Favourite' (brutally brilliant - don't get me stated about Queen Anne)
We find, to our delight, that we can now watch newly released films on our Sky Box - looking forward to 'The Young Karl Marx' (missed it when it came out) and Mary Queen of Scots
Some films simply don't work on the small screen - I remember, when living in Manchester, having to sit on the front row of a Cinemascope production of 'War and Peace' and ducking to avoid the horse shit - you just don't get that experience in your living room
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 12:25 PM

all his on work

Shakespearean schollars do say the his favoured actor Burbage had a large influence on the plays he performed in.

I would posit there are two immediately obvious reasons.

1) he had to deliver the lines, and any playwrite will tell you, the script changes in rehearsal and in production.

2) Bill Shake would have written to the strengths of his cast, and particularly Burbage.

3) Contrary to popular comedians' impression of him as a Brummy, Shakespeare would not have had that accent, it would have been more Warwickshire (Brum was not even a village near Aston at the time). And Burbage would have been distinctly Mummerset, where he was from. Oo Arr.

cliche eh? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 01:04 PM

Wonder whether he could spell scholars ? :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM

We find, to our delight, that we can now watch newly released films on our Sky Box"
Jim you disappoint me you financially support Murdoch?Iwould rather not have a television than supoprt that nasty capitalist


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM

Dick
If we weer all able to adhere to our principles, we'd read very little, watch nothing and probably have to live in a tent on the Yorshire Moors (is we could find a tent not manufactured by sweat labour
I would rather continue keep in touch with what's happening in the world in the hope of changing it
Do you know that parts of computers and mobile phones are assembled by people working under near-slave labour conditions - have you checked whether yours were?
I hope this is only a passing diversion in a very enjoyable thread - I won't respond again and I hope you don't
Best wishes
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 03:28 AM

Meanwhile - back at the ranch

"Shakespearean schollars"
Very little is known about Shakespeare, apart from his plays (and even the authorship of those is under constant dispute)
Information on his background, influences, accent, sources... is sparse to the point of non-existence (a trip round the Globe Museum shows that pretty clearly) so it is as likely that the writers of 'Shakespeare in Love' (lovely, re-visitable film) are as as accurate as most (and certainly a damn sight more entertaining)
I believe it is Shakespeare's use of the English language that makes him the literary colossus that he remains after all these centuries
Whether he invented his quoteable outpourings or borrowed them is immaterial - his use of them is uniquely superb - you don't find his equal in Jonson, or Marlow, or Webster, or Kyd, or Fletcher .... or any of his contemporaries.... or those from a later date, as enjoyable as they are

I'm not sure that originality is that important anyway - for me, the knack of observation and recreation is every bit as important as imaginative new creation
As people who know my tastes in music will be aware, I consider MacColl to be the finest song-maker of my lifetime creating in traditional forms.
In my opinion, his best and most ageless songs are the ones he made by recording the people he was writing about and making songs from what they said - 'Freeborn Man', 'Shoals of Herring', 'The Tenant Farmer', Shellback..... all - and more lifted directly from the spoken word, with all its literary flaws and grammatical inconsistencies.
MacColl seeped himself in the vernacular - wherever Shakespeare took his inspiration from, his use of language leaves me with the same impression
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM

I believe it is Shakespeare's use of the English language that makes him the literary colossus that he remains after all these centuries"
Yes,
however one difference between MacColl and Shakespeare is that MacColl was trying to achieve social change and fight against injustice.
Shakespeare did not challenge the status quo, he was part and parcel of Tudor propaganda and the tudor establishmernt
iF one makes a comparison to George Eliot who also wrote beautiful English ,Shakespears lack of social conscience becomes apparent


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 04:51 AM

Wonder whether he could spell scholars ? :-)

You are presuming that he used modern spelling? He was ahead of his time, but not that far ahead. !-)

One thing is certain - he used language that spoke to his audience. Otherwise he would not have had an audience.

He was a dab hand at the bow and arrow, and not averse to using them on the local deer. That much is well documented. It is the reason he had to go to London, or, at least, places other than Stratford/Shottery or Charlcote where the Lord of the Manor was the magistrate and owner of said deer.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:00 AM

or Thomas Hardy, this poem has more power than anything Shakespeare in his pomp anmd verbosity ever managed to say, and Hardy does it in 4 lines truly brilliant, concise and challenging
Christmas: 1924

'Peace upon earth!' was said. We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:14 AM

"You are presuming that he used modern spelling?"
Nope - I made a joke and put a smiley behind it
His audience presents us with one of the great enigmas of understanding Shakespeare - they were largely "the sweepings of the London streets", not similar in class to the readers of Dickens, yet today's equivalents would largely run a mile before sitting though 'King Lear' or reading 'Great Expectations'   
I had both educated out of me at school, where I was told on leaving that all I needed to know was how to tot up my wage packet at the end of the week
I was lucky enough to come from a family background where both were considered important and enjoyable

"MacColl was trying to achieve social change and fight against injustice."
Not entirely Dick - MacColl was a Socialist reformer, certainly, but he worked by holding up working class art as being creatively important and usin it to create his own compositions
We don't know why Shakespeare wrote how and why he did but it's a debatable point as to whether he did not challenge the status quo
I would suggest that, by presenting the Monarchy and Nobility as flawed human beings rather than the "appointed by God" superhumans they were often regarded as, he managed to challenge the status quo and keep his head on his shoulders at the same time - not a bad trick in those days


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:15 AM

"You are presuming that he used modern spelling?"
Nope - I made a joke and put a smiley behind it
His audience presents us with one of the great enigmas of understanding Shakespeare - they were largely "the sweepings of the London streets", not similar in class to the readers of Dickens, yet today's equivalents would largely run a mile before sitting though 'King Lear' or reading 'Great Expectations'   
I had both educated out of me at school, where I was told on leaving that all I needed to know was how to tot up my wage packet at the end of the week
I was lucky enough to come from a family background where both were considered important and enjoyable

"MacColl was trying to achieve social change and fight against injustice."
Not entirely Dick - MacColl was a Socialist reformer, certainly, but he worked by holding up working class art as being creatively important and usin it to create his own compositions
We don't know why Shakespeare wrote how and why he did but it's a debatable point as to whether he did not challenge the status quo
I would suggest that, by presenting the Monarchy and Nobility as flawed human beings rather than the "appointed by God" superhumans they were often regarded as, he managed to challenge the status quo and keep his head on his shoulders at the same time - not a bad trick in those days
You obviously don't like Shakespeare - I pity your loss
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM

It's not only Shakespeare's incomparable command of language that keeps him immortal. I'm also gripped, time and time again, by his piercing insights into the human mind: how the psyche works, what drives it, the consequences, internal and external, that arise when these come into opposition.

Shakespeare is one of civilisation's true giants. Not for nothing has he lived on in modern societies for century after century, in country after country. He's accompanied me in every age since my youth, and will light my way to dusty death.


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:38 AM

Amen to that Bonnie
I seriously believe Hamlet predated Freud by three centuries
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 06:42 AM

Nice try but no cigar, Jim.


I'll get me coat then...


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Subject: RE: BS: shakespeare
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:14 AM

Not for nothing has he lived on in modern societies for century after century, in country after country"
Could it be that he has always been on the schools syllabus because he did not challenge the status quo, schoolchildren have no choice as to whether Shakespeare is taught to them, it is part of the school curriculum , did not the Jesuits say get them young and they are yours for life, i rest my case.


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