mudcat.org: traditional songs - best for learning?
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


traditional songs - best for learning?

Jim Carroll 05 Jan 19 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 19 - 06:24 AM
Richard Mellish 05 Jan 19 - 06:09 AM
Snuffy 05 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM
The Sandman 05 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM
Andy7 04 Jan 19 - 05:22 PM
leeneia 04 Jan 19 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM
RTim 03 Jan 19 - 10:03 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM
Richard Mellish 03 Jan 19 - 05:46 AM
Andy7 03 Jan 19 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,The Man from UNCOOL 02 Jan 19 - 08:55 PM
Gallus Moll 02 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 01 Jan 19 - 10:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM
Vic Smith 01 Jan 19 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 01 Jan 19 - 07:21 AM
The Sandman 01 Jan 19 - 05:25 AM
Steve Gardham 31 Dec 18 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 04:59 PM
Andy7 31 Dec 18 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 09:36 AM
GUEST 31 Dec 18 - 09:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 18 - 09:17 AM
Steve Gardham 31 Dec 18 - 09:08 AM
Vic Smith 31 Dec 18 - 09:06 AM
GUEST 31 Dec 18 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 08:28 AM
Vic Smith 31 Dec 18 - 08:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 18 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 06:36 AM
Steve Gardham 31 Dec 18 - 06:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 18 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 06:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 18 - 05:38 AM
Richard Mellish 31 Dec 18 - 05:31 AM
Steve Gardham 31 Dec 18 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 18 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 Dec 18 - 04:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 18 - 04:16 AM
Andy7 31 Dec 18 - 04:10 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:24 AM

The Duke of Athol's Nurse is on par with some of the best comedies ever written, though, as I'm now finding out, it's hard work trying to Anglicise it - I may have to settle for just listening to it (can't find a half-decent Utube version to link to)

I have to say that rejecting tragic ballads is missing out on the best depictions of human experience we have at our disposal - Tifties Annie, Sheath and Knife, The Cruel Mother... our oral traditions would be very much impoverished without them   
BURIED in KILKENNY
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:24 AM

The Duke of Athol's Nurse is on par with some of the best comedies ever written, though, as I'm now finding out, it's hard work trying to Anglicise it - I may have to settle for just listening to it (can't find a half-decent Utube version to link to)

I have to say that rejecting tragic ballads is missing out on the best depictions of human experience we have at our disposal - Tifties Annie, Sheath and Knife, The Cruel Mother... our oral traditions would be very much impoverished without them   
BURIED in KILKENNY
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:09 AM

Leeneia "I tried to think of what you specifically requested, ballads which does not involve tragedy, but I couldn't think of any."

Come now! A few have already been mentioned and I can easily add a few more, just sticking to Child. The False Knight on the Road. Tam Lin. Thomas Rymer. Young Beichan. Long Johnnie More. etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM

more ballads without tragedy...

Matt Hyland (Roud 2880)

The Knight & Shepherd's Daughter (Child 110)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM

ballads without tragedy... willy of the winsbury


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Andy7
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 05:22 PM

Thanks for the local library idea, and for the reference number!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 12:53 PM

To get back to the original question - Andy, go to your public library and either get a songbook (try the 780's, esp 784) or check out CD's with traditional songs.

I tried to think of what you specifically requested, ballads which does not involve tragedy, but I couldn't think of any. However, if you like singing, I am sure you will find songs to your liking at the library.

The important thing is to get started - to find songs and to meet people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM

On the website Tim
The only item resembling traditional music are the tunes played on the melodeon

I know because of my work at C# House that, while they don't have as much as they could and should have, the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library has some important field recordings, including Pat Shuldham Shaw's collection, which was in a pretty poor state four decades ago
No way to treat our heritage
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: RTim
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 10:03 AM

Jim - you stated the following:
"The BBC field recordings are held in full by the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library - as far as I know, they are unavailable for general use.
Instead, E.F.D.S.S. chooses to proioritise poor new compositions which, in my opinion, have nothing to do with folk song
For me, all this is an indication of the poor state of the revival in Britain"

Can you tell me what these - "poor new compositions" - "they prioritise" - are ??

Thank you - Tim Radford


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

"It seems to me that Steve's 31 Dec 18 - 09:08 AM post also offered some very plausible explanations"
I responded to that Richard - our recordings offer the equally valuable, if not more so, chance to hear Walter talking at hi songs at length and of how he regards traditional songs in comparison to his non- traditional songs
I would point out that, apart from Walter's recordings, the British Library hold masses of recording of our Traveller songs, stories, lore and information, Clare Songs, and other Norfolk songs recorded in Winterton, none of which have been recorded elsewhere - all locked away along with Walters
It can hardly be claimed that they are of no interest to the National Sound Archive as such material is available in the Kennedy collection and was recorded at great length by the BBC
I believe our collection was a victim of its own success - Lucy Duran raved about it and her enthusiasm led to the widening of the NSA's brief and began to include British material big-time
The fact that nobody else seems to want our's, Terry Yarnell's or many the other collections says what needs to be said about the current state of Folk Song in England

The NSA holds a full set of the recordings made by Percy Grainger in 1908 - landmark Traditional English recordings - unavailable.
We have a full set given to us by a friend who was given them by Grainger's widow, Ella Grainger
The BBC field recordings are held in full by the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library - as far as I know, they are unavailable for general use.
Instead, E.F.D.S.S. chooses to proioritise poor new compositions which, in my opinion, have nothing to do with folk song
For me, all this is an indication of the poor state of the revival in Britain

"It's a little unfortunate that Andy's appeal for advice about material has been intermittently sidetracked,"
You think so ?
I and others have offered copies of the Song Carriers and I directly offered a digitised set of Caedmon's 'Folk Songs of England' - along with anything from our substantial archive as with many other offers I have made here and on threads such as this, my offers have never been responded to, though I would have thought they were of far more practical use than lists of songs

My first suggestions were practical ones -I have been following this thread and many more have sprung to mind, but the hostility I have received makes me reluctant to be bothered making them - I'm getting rather tired of it all, to be honest

I don't share your opinion of "the common love of the material" still exists - that seems to have long departed from the scene and replaced by an open hostility towards "long, inappropriate
ballads' and by mawkish non-folk Victorian tear-jerkers and early pop songs (anything rather than the real thing)
A love and understanding of traditional songs and an acknowledgement of their social importance and uniqueness is, I believe, essential to their survival

The fact that we can't even discuss the definition of our songs and, when we try, the ear becomes thick with cries of "purist" and "elitist" and "folk police/fascist" says what needs to be noted (and heeded)

These arguments never fail to depress me - luckily, I now live in a place where the traditional arts are treated with pride and respect for their uniqueness, importance and their enjoyment value
Because of this, have been guaranteed a future - would that this was the case back home
Sadly
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 05:46 AM

Jim,

Thank you for answering my questions.

As to why some possible recipients of your recordings turned them down, or accepted them but haven't made them publicly available, your own 31 Dec 18 - 06:36 AM post set out some reasons.

It seems to me that Steve's 31 Dec 18 - 09:08 AM post also offered some very plausible explanations, and it's a shame that you seem to be dismissing what he says just because you've taken umbrage (with or without justification) at some other things that he has said. (Not that you're the only one here taking umbrage at one thing or another.)

It's a little unfortunate that Andy's appeal for advice about material has been intermittently sidetracked, but some of those sidetracks have been informative in themselves, notably Vic's posts.

Let's all of us not lose sight of our common enthusiasm for and love of the material, even though we have different ideas of where the boundaries lie. Whatever the various origins of the songs, the common feature is that people have liked them enough to learn them, sing them, and thus pass them on to others. By that process, a hell of a lot of dross has fallen by the wayside and what has survived has been demonstrated to have some merit, whether or not we happen to approve of a particular song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Andy7
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 05:05 AM

Thanks for your suggestions, GM, and I do agree with your point about the singer being a vehicle for the song. I have in the past learned songs I've heard and enjoyed; but my purpose this year is to seek out new (to me) songs that I'd not otherwise have heard.

TMFU, thank you so much for your generous offer; but I'll not put myself forward for a support spot on this occasion.

I've been meaning for a while to get along to the Guide Dog, and will make it some time; hopefully for Nick's gig.

My regular club is Woolston and Bursledon on a Sunday, where you've perhaps met me, although I confess I don't recall ever meeting anyone 'uncool' there! :-) At WBFC I help set out the chairs on those occasions when I accidentally arrive early enough to do so, and also sometimes help to run the extensive bar on guest nights.

I also go along to the monthly singarounds at Forest Folk; and other life commitments limit the amount of time I'm able to spend at folk clubs, otherwise I'd probably be looking for something every evening!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,The Man from UNCOOL
Date: 02 Jan 19 - 08:55 PM

Andy
  You'll be most welcome to do a support spot to Nick's gig at Focsle Music, Southampton (March 13th), if he considers you a sufficient standard, and – naturally, having set yourself this NYResolution – as long as you've learnt all three of your songs by then :-)  In practice, any acoustic material is welcome at our club (which, for my sins, I now run solo over the winter).  Sorry the website hasn't been up to date:  I was considering walking away from it some time ago, so I'd cleared any forward dates until I'd sorted out its future.
  I've seen your name in several posts I've followed, and keep wondering who you are, since I recall no Andys showing their face there since I've been at the helm.
  Can I add "Martin Said To His Man" to your list of optimistic songs?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 02 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM

Andy7, I usually find that the songs I want to learn / sing are ones that have captivated me when someone else has performed them.
It might be a song I already know or have heard before, but sometimes a certain person's rendition just grabs me, and I have to learn it.
But - not to sing it the way they do, no matter how wonderful I think their voice is (Gordeanna McCulloch, Jean Redpath, Heather Heywood, Jeannie Robertson etc)- I need to make the song my own.
- Singing a ballad is not about you as a singer, it is about the story, the history - you have to be immersed in it, understand it, see the events as they occur - you are a vehicle for the song, and people should remember the song and what it recounted rather than the singer - imho!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM

Found it, Nick. Email sent.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 10:02 AM

Thanks Dave. You've got my Email, so drop me a line and we'll sort out details. If you've lost it let me know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM

I see you are on at Swinton on the day before my birthday, Nick :-) May pay visit and, if so, probably come past yours. Do you want a lift if I do?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 07:46 AM

Bob Copper & Bob Lewis - "Two Bob's Worth" Musical Traditions MTCD374

Booklet notes by Jon Dudley & Vic Smith
Read the booklet notes at - http://www.mustrad.org.uk/pdf/374.pdf
Buy it at - http://www.mtrecords.co.uk/index2.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 07:21 AM

Bang on again Dick! Have you got Bob Copper and Bob Lewis singing together? Its on The Musical Traditions, label. Happy New year.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 05:25 AM

ANDY ,my advice would be to listen to phil tanner, joseph taylor , bob lewis,absorb over time through listening and if you listen to enough different traditional singers you will unconsciously develop your own style


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 08:34 PM

Andy,
You're far better off not trying to imitate anybody. This would put you on a par with second rate pop singers. Be yourself and try to use your natural voice. All of the singers I admire either use their own natural voice or cultivate their own style.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 04:59 PM

Just a suggestion. If you pick a song you like that is not too difficult, try singing along with the singer taking a breath when he or she does. The programme on ornamentation that includes Bob Copper singing the Spotted Cow might be a help. I am sure you are more able than you might think, and there is nothing bad about getting it wrong a few (hundred in my case) times
Happy New Year
Nick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Andy7
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:11 PM

Yes, I managed to download it, thanks.

A fascinating programme! But I'm pretty sure I'd never be able to reproduce accurately the vocal style and ornamentation of the old traditional singers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 01:32 PM

Andy did you manage to download 'The Song Carriers' it occurs to me I can send them over to you by Dropbox. They are in a Zip file. Blimey I sound like I'm technically adept. (I got Dropbox three weeks ago so maybe not). Despite some glaring errors, they are essential listening.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 12:38 PM

Very even handed of you Nick
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 12:37 PM

Please do not address any further comments to me, or engage in any argument expecting a reply. I'm done with you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 11:50 AM

"You could never find a less patronising man than Steve Gardham."
Steve has patronised me publicly since we first crossed sword Nick, and has continued do do so throughout our fractious relationship.
His first opening comments were that I was "starry- eyed and naive" when I quoted MacColl's moving closing comments on 'The Song Carriers' (go check them out and see what you make of them)
I'm afraid it went against his 'the folk didn't make folk songs' theory
Our relationship went downhill from then on
I know what you mean about "shouting at the screen" though - I do it far too often nowadays
Please try to confine your comments to what you know about I have never kicked anybody to my hearts content, though I used to kick back occasionally
Getting too old for that now
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 11:26 AM

This is a heavily censored post. I have calmed down a bit before I submitted. So in civil terms without the four letter words I just shouted at the screen please read the following Jim. You could never find a less patronising man than Steve Gardham. He has helped me and supported my efforts more than you could ever do. He's perfectly able to fight his own battles I'm sure, but for my part you have succeeded in offending me quite badly. I am having nothing more to do with you from now on, on line or in person. You may kick me to your hearts content, but do not abuse a man I consider to be my friend in public and think we can all carry on as if nothing has happened. You have gone too far this time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 10:09 AM

"I could be wrong here as you haven't yet sent me a list of what is included in your British material, "
I didn't say I would Steve, nor do I intend to
I could do without being 'one-up-manship' partonised as I was with your offers of your finding the sources of our Irish songs, which I probably know more about than you and which are fully annotated anyway
As far as Walter's recordings are concerned, they are largely of Walter talking rather than singing, which, in my opinion, makes them so valuable - it would cut across much of the nonsense talked here

I wasn't going to interrupt - I'm quite fascinated to learn what displays of personal taste (good or bad) has to do with what makes a folk song
Traditional (folk songs) aren't made by constant repetition - it's a lot lass facile than that   
Carry on
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 09:36 AM

I've just read the tune through, and I'm not familiar with the song. Many thanks Vic.
By the way sight reading and singing from the page is the best thing I ever learned to do for song hunting. A certain Mr. Carthy MBE taught me how to approach it. I saw him the other day and reminded (and thanked) him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 09:25 AM

Dave the Gnome: OK, fair enough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 09:17 AM

No, I don't like it particularly either, Guest. The point is that a pop song can be "folked up" (in all senses) as much as a folk song can be popified (good a word as any). Because of this the dividing line can sometimes become blurred.

I can find you better examples of both if you like but suggest you look them up yourself so as not to disagree over the content rather than the principle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 09:08 AM

Jim,
Here is a likely scenario as to why your collection at the BL didn't make it into the BLSA. The project first of all had limited funds and a limited timescale. Those employed to carry it out (Andrew King for instance) were employed on a temporary basis just to fulfil the contract. The remit as I saw it was to make enquiries for material that wasn't already in a collection and held in private hands (like mine). They made me an offer and I accepted. (My reward was to receive copies of the whole collection ready digitised onto 25 CDs which I have put to very good use in presentations and giving back copies to the families of those I recorded). I was just very lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Your collection as I understand it had already been accepted prior to this project and because of the restrictions and the desire to get in 'new' collections yours wasn't included in the same project which is indeed a great shame.

I could be wrong here as you haven't yet sent me a list of what is included in your British material, but I strongly suspect much of it has also been recorded by others and might be seen in some quarters as duplicating to some extant what is already out there, for instance recordings made by the likes of Mike Yates, Bill Leader at al.

I am happy to be corrected if any of this is inaccurate, and apologies to Andy for drifting off thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 09:06 AM

Sadly, Nick, although I heard Terry singing quite a number of times both at our club in Lewes and Peta & Ken's at the King & Queen in London, the only example of his singing that I recorded was at the Royal Oak in Lewes on Bob Copper's 80th birthday on 6th January 2005. Apart from the Coppers it was one song each and Terry sang Darling Mabel - aka The Love Letter music by Bennett Scott, words by A J Mills in 1896. Again there are slight differences in the way he sang it from the sheet music which is available on-line at https://monologues.co.uk/musichall/Sheets/Darling%20Mabel.pdf


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 08:51 AM

> Ever heard Richard Thompson's interpretation
> of "Oops I did it again" for instance?


No I hadn't, so I looked it up, and having watched it, I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I mean I'm as big a fan of (in no particular order) 1) Folk music, 2) Richard Thompson, 3) Britney Spears as anyone. But that was terrible. First he is sneering at Britney, then when he's singing he seems to be taking the piss, and then what exactly is folk about this interpretation?? Or is that what you are trying to say? That just because Mr Folk does something it doesn't mean it is automatically good?

Adding a wordless section with a change of rhythm and a Purcellesque style doesn't alter the fact that all the time he is singing it is just a worse than bad cover version. A not even half-hearted attempt to produce a good version of the song.

Is that what you were trying to illustrate? I am not sure whether I understood your point.

I'm afraid I have seen such behaviour from folkies in real life as well (not celebrity folkies, just at sessions) ... they decide to give some speech slagging off a pop artist they presumably don't like and then do a pisstake version of one of their songs. Why bother?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 08:28 AM

Terry Vosper Excellent! Do you have any recordings of him Vic? I remember his version of Five nights Drunk, it inspired me to learn the Hampshire version. Here's hoping you had your tape recorder on!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 08:09 AM

Steve Gardham wrote (31 Dec 18 - 06:32 AM):-
" I sang 'The Little Shirt me mother made for me' which I learnt as a child from my grandmother. It definitely was not out of place and went down well."


I learned that song from my father - and much against my will because I thought it a ridiculous little ditty but he sang it so often around the house that a young brain could not help but learn it.
I never heard it again until I started to record the 'Sussex Singers Evenings' that we arranged at our folk club in Lewes, the evenings where we gave the whole evening over to the surviving old traditional singers of the county. George Spicer sung it in a set of three songs that also included The Barley Mow. On another occasion George Belton sing it in the same set of three songs that included his lovely Bold Fisherman. I still did not like the song but I was fascinated by the fact that words varied between the three versions, Spicer located the song in Brighton, Belton had an extra verse that neither Spicer nor my dad had and dad's words were slightly removed from the other two. The three tunes were related but a good way from identical. I researched to find that the song was written by Harry Wincott, an English songwriter, born Alfred James Walden and it was first recorded in 1907 - seven years before my dad was born. All three versions varied from the written original. By this time my dad was dead but I was able to ask both Georges separately where they had learned the song and if they knew who had written it. Their answers were very similar - no idea who wrote it, it was just one of the songs that was sung in pub sing-songs and they had picked it up from older singers without anything being written down.
As theories emerged that emphasised the transmission process of songs rather than their origin this was of great interest to me because this was what I was hearing from the old singers that I was mixing with in Sussex and not just with this song.
Other compositions by Harry Wincott included included The Old Dun Cow and Mademoiselle from Armentières and we all know how widely popular these and others of his became in all sorts of contexts.

Steve Gardham wrote (31 Dec 18 - 05:20 AM)
"East London has a very strong tradition of its own, but being part of the Metropolis it was always very welcoming of any new trends in music so its tradition is made up of many popular songs which became very much a part of that tradition. How that fed into the folk revival was down to people like John Foreman, Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan, and more latterly Cosmotheka. Some here would claim none of this is folksong, but don't forget your own roots and be proud of them."


Our folk club in Lewes always had a very strong bent towards the tradition but all the artists that you mention were booked there over the decades, John Foreman many times and the approach, enthusiasm and delivery of their material was well received by our regular crowd of tradition enthusiasts. One of our regular very popular floor singers was Jim Ward, a man with an encyclopedic knowledge of traditional jazz, the music hall and of the tradition in Sussex. He is a great purveyor of these old songs an particularly the monologues.
Ken Hall & Peta Webb would sometimes come down from London to our club - either as guest singers or for the 'Bob Copper Annual Birthday Parties'. They would bring other singers with them - even organising a minibus. One who particularly fascinated me was Terry Vosper - born and still living at the time in Whitechapel who epitomised that East London strong singing tradition that you mention.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:49 AM

I guess leaving us both confused is as good as it gets :-)

All the best for the new year anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:39 AM

"Sorry Jim. Beyond me."
Beyond me why you can't work out the contradictions between two of your own quotes which say exactly the opposite to one another
I'm not going to get an apology for having been accused of lying so I'd be wasting my time pursuing the matter
Let's leave it there eh?
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:36 AM

Sorry Richard - I got sidetracked
"Jim, Are you saying that you have tried to give away your recordings of Walter and that no-one wants to give them a home?
If so: when did you offer them? Who to? "
Not exactly true Richard - probably my fault
I and Terry Yarnell have been trying to find a home for our archive for years - that includes Walter's recordings and many more
I have offered them up here, to clubs or to individuals who wish to use them
We did deposit our collection with the then British Institute of Recorded Sound via Lucy Duran, who was then inspired to include British Folk song in her what was then Ethnomusicological Department - largely foreign material
When the Institute became The National Sound Archive ad moved to The British Library and they decided to launch their Folk Music online collection they chose not to include our collection which now, presumably, lies locked in a cupboard somewhere in Euston Road
I discussed with numerous people the housing of our collection at C# House but to no avail
On examination, I am somewhat relieved that the ofer was never taken up - I'm pretty sure Walter would never have enjoyed the company he would have had to keep !
Our collection is housed in places in Ireland, The Irish Traditional Music Archive and The Irish Folklore Department - unfortunately, they have no particular interest in English Field recordings - not their brief
Our entire collection and - hopefully, that of Singers Workshop will end up in The World Music Department at Limerick University where - hopefully - the remainder of our Clare Song and music Collection will go on line, along with our Traveller collection - probably not our English collection
Clare County Library has put most of our Clare Song recordings on line - (a magnificent job carried out by two appointed librarians over two years)
To date, we have found no home for our Archive and personal collection in Britain
Sorry for not replying sooner and sorry that this reply is as convoluted as has been our task of finding a home for our archives
"You can't give English folk songs away nowadays", seems to sum it all up
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:32 AM

Last night I was at a very robust well-attended singaround. I would say more than half of the songs sung were British traditional. After singing 3 or 4 traditional songs I sang 'The Little Shirt me mother made for me' which I learnt as a child from my grandmother. It definitely was not out of place and went down well. The best criterion for such convivial sessions is a mixture of well-known/well-loved and newer material with plenty of opportunities to join in both accompanying and chorus singing. A great time was had by all and that's by far the most important aspect.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:26 AM

Sorry Jim. Beyond me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:10 AM

"Jim. I did say what I believed a folk song was. "
"I do know what I believe to be a folk song"
Work it out for yourself Dave
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 05:38 AM

Sorry Jim. I can't make head nor tail of your last post. You asked what I believed a folk song to be. I told you. Who is to apologise and for what?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 05:31 AM

I am disappointed by the absence of answers to any of my 30 Dec 18 - 01:31 PM questions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 05:20 AM

East London has a very strong tradition of its own, but being part of the Metropolis it was always very welcoming of any new trends in music so its tradition is made up of many popular songs which became very much a part of that tradition. How that fed into the folk revival was down to people like John Foreman, Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan, and more latterly Cosmotheka. Some here would claim none of this is folksong, but don't forget your own roots and be proud of them.

My own repertoire is made up of songs from my own family, songs from my own area, songs I have learnt from the British tradition and songs more recently written, some by myself. I consider this to be a healthy mixture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 05:07 AM

"I do know what I believe to be a folk song"
Yep - that's what I said
Apology not forthcoming, I presume
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 04:54 AM

I think a lot of fine people make a financial loss on the Folk Scene.
Not that they are in any way resentful. When it comes down to it we are all on the same side. I have hardly met anybody who did not try and do their personal best weather singing or organising. That's a good definition of love for the music isn't it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 04:16 AM

Here it is, Jim. You are very good at missing what was said and I accept your apology. Fortunately I am very good at remembering what was said and when.

I do know what I believe to be a folk song and you can look me up performing some at Swinton if you like. It may not agree with your definition but it is the best I can do. I am more than happy to accept other peoples definitions while fully understanding that no single one of them is the full picture. Can you say the same?

Please note that the phrase that I am more than happy to accept other people's definitions includes the 1954 one and yours.

As to insults, perceived or otherwise, need I point out to you that the venom you pour out on folk club organisers is particularly insulting to a whole set of people, including me until 5 years ago. These are the people who give their time, and often their money, freely to help to maintain the tradition, only to be told by you that they are making a rubbish job of it.

You cannot or will not support your case with examples while ignoring the examples of fine traditional music presented here. What are we to think?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: traditional songs - best for learning?
From: Andy7
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 04:10 AM

Nick, being the OP I don't really want to comment on individual song suggestions. But I'm really grateful to have had so many songs/performers/sources/genres suggested, it's introduced me to a wealth of fine music, quite apart from whatever I might choose to learn myself.

In answer to Steve, I've lived for a long time in the Southampton area, although I was born and raised in east London, and have also lived in Essex.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 6 August 4:01 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.