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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

Joe Offer 21 Dec 18 - 06:56 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM
mg 21 Dec 18 - 07:22 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 18 - 08:14 PM
Mossback 21 Dec 18 - 08:18 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 18 - 11:56 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 04:03 AM
Mossback 22 Dec 18 - 09:15 AM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 18 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 01:08 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 18 - 01:37 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 18 - 02:45 PM
keberoxu 22 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM
mg 22 Dec 18 - 05:42 PM
Iains 23 Dec 18 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Dec 18 - 08:52 AM
ollaimh 24 Dec 18 - 01:01 PM
Raggytash 24 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM
ollaimh 24 Dec 18 - 02:48 PM
keberoxu 24 Dec 18 - 03:41 PM
keberoxu 24 Dec 18 - 03:54 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Dec 18 - 03:58 PM
Rapparee 24 Dec 18 - 04:21 PM
Joe Offer 24 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM
leeneia 25 Dec 18 - 12:04 PM
Rapparee 25 Dec 18 - 10:20 PM
Rapparee 25 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM
Brian May 26 Dec 18 - 02:04 PM
Donuel 27 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM
ollaimh 08 Feb 19 - 12:57 AM
Mrrzy 08 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM
Donuel 08 Feb 19 - 07:44 PM
Joe Offer 08 Feb 19 - 09:09 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM
Raggytash 09 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM
Raggytash 09 Feb 19 - 12:18 PM
Thompson 09 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 01:02 PM
Jon Freeman 09 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM
John P 09 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM
John P 09 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 19 - 07:50 PM
Joe Offer 10 Feb 19 - 12:22 AM
Donuel 10 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:56 PM

No, Donuel, mg meant Australia. Pope Francis moved Cardinal George Pell from Australia to the Vatican to take care of the financial mess in the Vatican. By all reports, he did a good job with the finances; but then it turned out that he made an even bigger mess by his coverups and his own sexual misconduct.
And that brings up my perennial question - can a person guilty of sexual misconduct do anything of value, or should such a person be shunned as a total reprobate? Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done?

-Joe-

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/01/who-is-cardinal-george-pell-and-what-is-he-accused-of


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM

I do question ollaimh's report of "another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan." As with most of the recent reports, they are summaries of information that has already been known for years, for the most part. http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 128 offenders in Michigan. No doubt, the current investigations will find more, but certainly not 700. The truth is bad enough. I don't see why ollaimh feels compelled to inflate it.

-Joe-

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/09/21/schuette-investigation-michigan-priests-sexual-abuse/1378827002/


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:22 PM

in Illinois it has gone from about 168 reported to about 500-700 the attorney general herself is working on. And Pell undoubtedly had financial experience running huge dioceses and abusing victims to prevent them from tapping into resources. But was he capable of dealing with mafia money laundering? International finance? it all sounds so fishy to me and I wrote the pope at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 08:14 PM

"Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done?"

I think the only answer to this is that you can do what you like. In another thread there's been some chat about Wagner, whose views about Jews were utterly despicable. For me, that means I'll have nothing to do with his music, won't listen to it on the radio, won't have it in the house. But my hero Daniel Barenboim, a Jew who hates what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, took Wagner's music to Israel and took the flak. I can say I think he was wrong-headed, but hey, that's just my opinion. To me, there's something about sexual predators, especially the ones who target children, that makes me immediately want to dismiss anything else they've achieved. But that's me, and if you see things differently that's fine with me as well. As far as attacks on Catholic clergy go, let's just make sure that we attack the institution in its failings. Let's not tar the whole clergy with the misdeeds of a minority. I've been involved with Catholicism babe, child, boy and man for most of my life. Not any more (even though we've just dispatched my dad in as thoroughly a Catholic manner as you could wish for). I'm one of them thar militant atheists these days. But I've known hundreds of Catholics, pupils, students, nuns, priests, brothers, teachers and even Bishop bloody Victor (who I got the better of). I've even shaken hands with Cardinal Hume. To a man or woman, they are no better or worse than anyone else. So just make bloody sure that your long knives are reserved for the actual buggers who deserve them, that's all I'm saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 08:18 PM

Placing Garrison Keillor in the same category as Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell - even if the accusations against him were true, which was never proven - is a VERY cheap shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 11:56 PM

I have no idea what Garrison Keillor did, other than it was something sexual involving a woman; and it was a surprise and a disappointment to me that he was banished from public radio. And yes, it appears that his work has been made invisible, like the work of Bill Cosby and whatever Cardinal Pell did.

My question is not about the comparative guilt of these three men - but I do think that the banishment of their work was comparable. My question is whether their accomplishments must be made invisible and never spoken of favorably. The same thing seems to be happening with Harvey Weinstein movies, despite the fact that most of the people involved in production of those movies were totally innocent - and some were victims of Weinstein's malicious conduct.

We've had a thread that had a lot of traffic over the years. I started it in 2008, asking about hymn writer Ernest Sands. Over the 8-year life of the thread, we learned that Ernest Sands had been a Catholic priest, that he had molested children, and that he eventually committed suicide. Most likely, he was a very troubled man, but he wrote two hymns that remain very popular in the Catholic Church and other denominations. One is a catchy song in 5/4 time called "Sing of the Lord's Goodness." The other is "Song of Farewell," a very moving interpretation of the ancient "In Paradisum" prayer that closes Catholic funerals:
    May the choirs of angels come to greet you
    May they lead you to Paradise.
    May the Lord enfold you in His mercy,
    May you find eternal life.
There's real power and real compassion in that song. It's a wonderful song, and I think the author's horrible sexual misconduct cannot detract from the song.

But it's a difficult thing to consider the art of someone who has conducted himself horribly in "real life." I don't think there are easy answers.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 04:03 AM

The at least 500 cover-ups in Illinois was covered by our news station yesterday
How longer are church people going to deny that this is now a major problem- are they not aware of the self-harm they are doing to their faith?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 09:15 AM

what Garrison Keillor did, other than it was something sexual involving a woman [emphasis mine]

Actually, you don't "know" that he did that at all.

This article lays out some important points:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/22/rape-joke-metoo-movement-career-repercussions


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 12:58 PM

Mossback, I have no desire to do battle with you. Cool it. Now. What you're trying to pick a fight about, is immaterial.

Jim Carroll says: How longer are church people going to deny that this is now a major problem- are they not aware of the self-harm they are doing to their faith?

Give me one recent example of denial, Jim. Catholics, including church leaders, have acknowledged the reality and impact of this problem for a long, long, time.

But nobody denies this stuff, Jim.

As for the Illinois report, I'll wait and see. Seems to me that at this point, it would be unlikely that the attorney general would be able to uncover "about 500 of the allegations [that] had never before been disclosed to the public." (Chicago Tribune). http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 265 Illinois priests as offenders, and I'm sure the number of offenses is many times 265.

I'll wait for more information on the Illinois report, which is described as "preliminary."

Whatever the case, it's a huge number of offenders and a far larger number of offenses. But I do think that Illinois will turn out like Pennsylvania - that most of the offenses and offenders have been known of by the public for many years.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:04 PM

"Give me one recent example of denial"
New exposures are coming out every day Joe
You don't need recent ones - you can't deal with the old ones
Pell wasn't exactly that long ago, when the pope went to war with the people
The church stating to pay the reparation it owes might help
People are waiting for signs of genuine contrition, not platitudes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:08 PM

Sorry Joe - we're in the middle of watching the churches reputation disappearing down the pan daily here in Ireland and it still acts as if it has influence - education - pregnant termination - same sex marriage
Next year we'll have the divorce referendum and women's place in society - it's on the cards which side they will be on
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:37 PM

Well, yeah, Jim, I suppose Pell did deny his wrongdoing - but the Vatican sent him home to Australia for trial. And yes, there are still new "exposures" - but the majority are added details of crimes that have already been reported. But when reports of incidents are made, the majority of Catholics and Catholic officials no longer deny them.

And when the divorce referendum passes in Ireland (and I believe it will), the majority of Catholics will be voting in favor, and there will be many priests and a few bishops voting in favor of the referendum alongside them.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 02:45 PM

And Jim, you say something about "the church stating (starting?) to pay the reparation it owes." Payment started long ago, and the Catholic Church has paid billions worldwide. And Catholics in Ireland have also paid substantial reparations. This has created a huge financial crisis all over the Catholic Chutch. But no, the debt is not paid in full.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM

Now His Holiness goes on the record as saying "turn yourselves in."

Something about the barn door comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:42 PM

Denial? How about the pope himself in Chili calling abusees liars or a similar word. I do think a lot of the coverup is a huge shame about sex period...between newlyweds etc. A physical disgust at women and a subconscious belief that at least it was only altar boys and not vile womankind. Also a desire to protect assets of the church..which might be great in the vatican but in ballyferriter or mumbai they might be struggling at best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:08 AM

Ballyferriter looks like a useful asset to me.


http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=KE®no=21304201


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 08:52 AM

"Payment started long ago"
The Pope vicious turned on Pell's accusers
This is the problem wwith all you're arguments Joe - they skirt around the part that the Church heirarch played in all this and is still playing
Exactly, and religious groups still owe victims €1.3 billion and appear to be hoping that they'll die before it is paid
We are now living in a situation where Irish people are being turned out on the streets if their mortgages are a few months overdue
It's not as if your church is hard-up now, is it?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:01 PM

holy joe will always question because holy joe will always find complicated reasons to do nothing. these are the enablers who need to be jailed, and untill people who endanger children by not warning parents of known pedophiles are jailed for felony child endangerment then the problem will not end.

the catholic church was the worst in the genocide of native children and now wants to hold the record for pedophilia. they remain the only church to not apologize for the native children's genocide.

but they are holy men. thr gnostic dualists were right. mainstream christianity worships devils and calls it god


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM

Iains, unfortunately your link doesn't work. I'm curious as I know Ballyferriter reasonably well and would be interested in reading it.

Could you possibly resubmit it.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 02:48 PM

religious fanatics raping children is such a complicated issue, it's so had to understand, the complexities make stopping it impossible, becuase to stop that, you'd lose money, and power and most of all the ego maniacs who deny deflect and diminish would have to examine their own evil. can't let that happen.. too complicated.

torturing native children, it's just so complicated, gotta defend that and never never never apologize. i guess we can see why the persecutions of nazis is so unfair. they were complicated as well. doing evil is so much clearly and fun, doing good ... well that's complicated. so who cares


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:41 PM

Iains' attempted link -- it didn't work for me either --
was a pageholder for
Saint Vincent's Catholic Church in Ballyferriter, build in 1865.

I'll see if I can construct a functional link.

St. Vincent's Catholic Church


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:54 PM

Of the two hundred - plus churches which were shut down by the Archdiocese of Boston, they have met with many varied fates.

The town of Wellesley had a church right on Route no. 9, which is not only a main commuter/connector route but is prime commercial real estate with everything from local businesses to state-of-the-art shopping malls. That particular church was a recent comer; some people moved to Wellesley who wanted a Catholic parish to worship in, and the church that was built was, honestly, a sort of cookie cutter church, nothing historical or unique.

Route no. 9 isn't going anyplace. The church, however, was literally razed down to the parking-lot foundation. You would never know that it had been there in the first place. Something else, and it is something commercial that is going to make money, is being built where the church stood.

The church which waked and buried Jack Kerouac back in the day, in his native Lowell, may have been a faithful reproduction of a Western-European continental style of architecture, so not terribly original, but the photos of the interior -- they were breathtaking in their beauty and elegance, with the Romanesque arches and all. The building is still standing. It is condominiums now.

I never looked inside -- Lowell is a ways away from me. I only saw those photographs on the webpages which the Archdiocese of Boston dedicated to 'real estate for sale.'

So many more ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:58 PM

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=KE&regno=21304201


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:21 PM

Oh, I think
the laity is aware of
what is going on.

Moreover, I think the laity is going to force significant change no matter what the Vatican does...and I don't mean by withholding collection monies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM

Yeah, I suppose the Catholic church at Ballyferriter is a valuable asset. It should be torn down and the property sold to developers who can build cute little prefab houses. Right?

Yes, there are justifications for bankrupting the Catholic Church. There are also consequences. All those mostly-empty "assets" cost a lot to maintain, so that tourists can come in and take selfies. Those old churches don't really function all that well for services that are suited to the times, but there's a raucous outcry from people who don't go to church, every time an old church closes or is modernized.

We Catholics acknowledge all the damage that was done by criminal priests in years past, but we also know that the vast majority of our priests were not guilty of these crimes. For most crimes, the guilty parties are the ones held responsible, and almost all agree that the criminals should pay the price of their crime. But in this case, it's different. The price is being paid by people who were mostly unaware of the crimes at the time they were happening. And because Catholic parishes have "assets," there are people lining up to collect those assets.

There's no question that we who are current members of the Catholic Church do have a share in the responsibility for reparations, but where does that responsibility end? When can we stop paying and go on with life?

Our parish just cut our music director from 40 to 12 hours per week - the congregation is shrinking, and there just wasn't enough money to pay her. We need a new roof, and that will cost $100,000. We thought our diocese paid for all those offenses at about the time they were reported, at about $100,000 per victim. But then came 2002 and the big reports of dioceses that hadn't paid, and we had to pay another million bucks per victim. We cut staff and closed buildings and learned to live on an austerity budget, but we still haven't recovered enough to pay a fulltime music director a living wage.

And yes, there are some dioceses who tried to evade their financial responsibility for the crimes their priests committed, and people are looking at us who already paid and thinking we owe more money.

And yeah, it does seem to me that there are some people who seek to take advantage of this crisis to put us out of business because they think we're evil, but we're not. We run homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food banks, and we are the strongest voice for justice for immigrants in the U.S. We want to get on with that work, and we are getting weary of those who dwell on the crimes a small minority of our priests committed in the last millennium.

So, yeah, go tear down the church and build cute little houses all over Ballyferriter, if that's what you want to do. We'd be better off without all those "assets."

-Joe Offer-

P.S. to ollaimh: My name is Joe, not "Holy Joe." You can take your honorifics and stick them up your ass. Merry Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 12:04 PM

I agree with you, Joe. Some people are so eager to talk about sexual abuse in the Catholic church, but they never say a word about the many forms of help and charity that the church offers.
===========
My newspaper just ran a series on sexual abuse of teen-age girls in "independent fundamental Baptist churches." Cover-ups seem widespread.

The article got me to thinking. I was raised Lutheran, and in all my activities (Sunday school, Bible school, catechism, confirmation classes, services, parties) I can't remember a single time when I was ever left alone with an adult. (other than my mother or father, of course) This was in three churches in two states.

I just wrote a letter to the editor and said that. I also said to parents that if they belong to a church where a minister has kids alone in his office, then they should change churches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 10:20 PM

I have completed two different training sessions and a background check by the diocese just so I can be an usher/greeter. Anyone who might be working with children for over an hour per month is required to do this every three years. An adult working with, say, a boy scout troop can't send anyone to a bathroom unless the adult has checked it first and then an older kid must accompany a younger.

This type of requirement has been the rule since 2002.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM

I will also point out that there is growing concern over clerical abuse of adults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 26 Dec 18 - 02:04 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46684638

Even the Home Secretary.

I suppose he's racist too . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM

I bet clerical abusers want to go to heaven for the climate but are going to hell for the company they keep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 12:57 AM

the pope just admitted that priests used nuns for sex slaves, they cover themselves in gory one more time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

Ah ha ha in gory ha ha whew hee hee...


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:44 PM

Nuns are fun but Priests are creeps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:09 PM

A report came out in the New York Times the other day that priests had sexually abused nuns. This is something that I've known about for maybe thirty years - it has been discussed at length in Catholic newspapers like America and National Catholic Reporter. I am disgusted and embarrassed that this sort of thing would happen in my church, but the reality is that it DOES happen - that it's almost certain to happen in an organization with 1.2 billion members. It happens everywhere, so why not in churches?

A friend of mine posted the NY Times article on Facebook and urged his Catholic friends to leave their church, and here's how I responded:
    Maybe you can't understand this, but please try. I see each new exposure of misconduct as a step forward, not as a reason for leaving. I have known of these issues all my life, and I have fought against this sort of malfeasance for years. When it is brought to light and especially when it is prosecuted, I see that as a victory.
    But I am still Catholic because that's who I am. To leave, would be to betray myself. So I will remain a Catholic, and will continue to work to fix what's wrong with Catholicism.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

"It happens everywhere, so why not in churches?"
The 'divine' power of the church reaches far beyond that of any secular organisation so any attempts at comparison are totally irrelevant
One of the effects of revelations such as these has been to loosen the once almost unassailable power of the church - the last battle appears to be over the Church's continuing control over childrens' minds via the education system - hopefully that will be sorted out this year
If church supporters haven't realised the damage being done by the church's intransigence and evasion the destruction of their church will be down to them

To my knowledge, the rape and sexual abuse of nuns has never been raised as an issue publicly - if it had been it would have exploded as violently as has clerical child abuse and Magdalene slavery   
An at least "thirty year old" cover-up, it would appear
When will they ever learn ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

The sexual abuse of nuns by priests has happened frequently in various African nations. I also recall a case in Ohio. I'm sure there are more.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/02/07/pope-reveals-nun-abuse-but-u-s-activists-say-problem-isnt-new/2804109002/


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM

"In a statement issued Thursday, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the largest association representing nuns in the U.S., said that while this problem is prevalent mostly in developing countries — there have been many cases in Africa, and last year a nun in India accused a priest of repeatedly raping her between 2014 and 2016 — it has gone on in the U.S., too."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"why not in the church"

Simple Joe, because the church(es) are supposed to be beyond reproach. They are supposed to show us how to live our lives free from sin and to resist temptation at all times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM

But that's not the reality, Raggytash. Your contention shows a lack of understanding of crime, particularly sex crimes. People don't refrain from crime, just because some authority tells them not to do it. For the most part, crime is best dealt with by criminal prosecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM

It's not the crime, which, as you say can happen anywhere
It's the long tern facilitating by covering up those crimes by the hierarchy that is destroying the church from within
They are still acting like an organisation that doesn't have the good sense to come in from the rain - the Bishop Barros fiasco being typical
Personally I don't care less about the fate of the Church, but I care about my friends and relatives who would be deeply distressed should it collapse in the manner it is set fair to do
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:18 PM

What !!

I can assure you Joe I, and I would suggest most people, refrain from crime because we are told by "authorities" not to commit crime.

Which planet do you live on??


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM

America too - and I have no doubt also other, civilised countries.

"In a statement issued Thursday, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the largest association representing nuns in the U.S., said that while this problem is prevalent mostly in developing countries — there have been many cases in Africa, and last year a nun in India accused a priest of repeatedly raping her between 2014 and 2016 — it has gone on in the U.S., too.

"The conference specifically referenced a 1996 study from St. Louis University that indicated, "there were sisters in the United States who had suffered some form of sexual trauma by Catholic priests. Often those sisters did not share this information even with their own communities." "


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:02 PM

RELUCTANCE TO INVESTIGATE A "GLOBAL ISSUE"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM

They are supposed to show us how to live our lives free from sin and to resist temptation at all times.

I’m not sure about that Raggy. My own take is that churches can recognise our fallibility and I like the (Anglican) book of Common Prayer lines:
We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done;

It’s true of me and likely true of most…

But that’s mostly a digression. Whereas it might be recognised that we, the people, sin, churches and their officials are expected to be our (for want of a better term) “moral guides” and follow these “high standards” themselves. I suppose it can be quite a shock to learn that priests have been involved in things abominable. I guess I could speculate that might add to the temptation to cover things up although, obviously, that is not the way.

The only way forwards is openness, acknowledging crimes and dealing with such matters according to the law of the land(s).


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Raggytash: I can assure you Joe I, and I would suggest most people, refrain from crime because we are told by "authorities" not to commit crime.

That's actually rather scary. I know that I don't commit crimes for the simple reason that it is wrong to do so. For anyone who thinks civilization is a good thing, committing crimes is irrational. If I wanted to commit a crime, I'm smart enough to figure out how to do it without getting caught.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM

I am heartily sick of all the right wing assholes complaining about what a bad president Obama was, but the Catholic sex crimes are one place where he seriously dropped the ball. And we are still fumbling it. If any other multi-national corporation was shown to be officially engaged in a massive child-rape conspiracy, we would have hired an army of lawyers and raided every office in the country, and confiscated every piece of paper and every computer hard drive. We wouldn't still be wringing our hands about it. We'd be watching hundreds of high-ranking corporate executives go to jail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Wait! Wait! Wait!

Obama is now the one responsible for the sex crimes committed by Catholic priests, mostly before the year 2002?

For the most part, the crimes committed were crimes against state law, and not under federal jurisdiction. Of course the same question of jurisdiction applies to the Catholic Church, where the offenses all fell within the jurisdiction of the local diocese.

If the local jurisdiction fails to prosecute, then someone from the local area must file a complaint with a higher authority. That's the standard way it works. There is no automatic national or international oversight, either in the U.S. government or in the Vatican. Local authorities are expected to deal with local issues.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:50 PM

I don't need to be told by anyone not to commit crime or do anything else that's plainly injurious to anyone else. The question is, how do I know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:22 AM

I think that most people don't commit crime, because crime doesn't make sense to them - it does not fit into their philosophy of life, if you will. The fear of punishment has something to do with it, but I think that most people don't commit crime because crime is senseless and absurd to them.

So, the people who DO commit crime, very often have something wrong with them. I think an awful lot of them, are able to make themselves believe they are doing the right thing. Authority telling them otherwise, will have very little effect on them.

As for the coverups, I think it's a number of things. One is the liability, which has reached an outrageous extreme. If a middle manager (bishop) has to pay millions of dollars in reparation for an action he had no knowledge of, that burden may be just too much to take and may drive a weak person to coverup - and most middle managers are weak persons. Another reason is mistaken loyalty to a priest who "couldn't possibly do anything so horrible." Or some sort of insensitive that elitist bishops have to the lower classes. Or any number of other reasons that need to be explored.

I don't usually like people who are in management, and I've rarely met a Catholic bishop I've admired - but I have to admit that some priests and bishops that I HAVE admired, have committed these horrible crimes nonetheless.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

Well Joe, so far your alibi for May 12th is holding up. :^/


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