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BS: Confession as child sexual abuse

Jack Campin 29 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM
Jack Campin 29 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM
Senoufou 29 Jun 18 - 01:36 PM
Nigel Parsons 29 Jun 18 - 04:41 PM
Jack Campin 29 Jun 18 - 05:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jun 18 - 09:24 AM
Senoufou 30 Jun 18 - 09:36 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Jun 18 - 02:51 PM
Senoufou 30 Jun 18 - 03:17 PM
Jos 30 Jun 18 - 03:30 PM
Senoufou 30 Jun 18 - 03:35 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jun 18 - 03:49 PM
frogprince 30 Jun 18 - 04:21 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jun 18 - 04:36 PM
Rapparee 30 Jun 18 - 10:58 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 02:39 AM
Senoufou 01 Jul 18 - 04:19 AM
Donuel 02 Jul 18 - 06:49 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 03:33 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jul 18 - 02:53 PM
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Subject: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM

I didn't know the Mormons did this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44644130

Revolting as it is, it doesn't look very different to confession in the Roman Catholic church. Maybe that ought to be seen as problematic too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM

I wonder if Kirk Anderson confessed?

Sorry for the levity but that was the first thing that sprang to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM

I hadn't heard of that case.

The offender got what must be the dishiest mugshot of all time. A generation of Mormon boys must have had impure thoughts to own up to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:36 PM

Isn't it odd (and dreadful) that the more fundamentalist and fervent religious people are, the more unpleasant and draconian their 'education' of children becomes? It's the same for all religions; they abuse their power and try to control and dominate children (and often women too)
I was confirmed when I was ten (Church of England) The vicar was rather too 'high church' and had some very fundamentalist ideas not compatible with the wishy-washy mainstream C of E.
Before the day, he sent us candidates home with a bit of paper on which to write our 'confession'. My father was incandescent, and flung it on the fire. His view was that a little ten year-old girl could have nothing worth writing down, and that the very idea was sick. (He was right!)
There's something very pervy about a male 'bishop' sitting alone in a room with a young lad listening to his sexual misdemeanors. Dodgy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:41 PM

Having read the link, I have to wonder whether this line of questioning would also highlight sexual predators within families, and thus make it a reasonable line of inquiry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 05:06 PM

More likely it would lead to any parent who deviated in the slightest from the Mormon sexual code getting labelled as a pervert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 09:24 AM

I was once given a book by a deeply Christian co-worker. She knew I liked fantasy and it was about angels and demons so she thought I would enjoy it. It was fine until I got to the bit where it explained that wives leaving husbands and children reporting sexual abuse was all down to demonic possession. I was tempted to burn it but I just gave it her back with a frank and honest statement of my opinion. We never really got on after that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 09:36 AM

This all has shades of 'The Handmaid's Tale' (now showing on TV, but I find it extremely harrowing, and stopped watching it after the indoctrinating hanging episode)

What is it about some religious groups that prompts them to oppress and torment their most innocent and vulnerable adherents?

Even the so-called major religions have some sinister tenets and practices. And sexual undertones seem to prevail in them all in one way or another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:51 PM

Once you understand that religions are not about some supernatural "god" then you may understand all sorts of things about what manipulators are interested in. Power. Sex. Money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:17 PM

Acme, I think you're quite right. Those three things seem to be the true foundation of many religious organisations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Jos
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:30 PM

I keep hoping that there is a difference between a religion itself and the various groups of people who set themselves up as being in charge of it, or attempt to take charge of it in opposition to other groups who are doing the same.
There do seem to be genuinely good people who believe in a religion and lead worthwhile and useful lives abiding by that belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:35 PM

I think the actual ordinary people who believe in their God are sincere and not blameworthy. It's the warped, the greedy and the power-mad 'leaders' who run the thing that are far from my idea of God-fearing and God-loving folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:49 PM

Our Catholic bishop went to work as a substitute priest on Indian reservations after he retired. He held communal confession ceremonies because his time at each location was limited to an hour or two. He'd ask people to write their sins down on a piece of paper, acknowledging what they'd done that was wrong. Then he took the unread papers and threw them into a bonfire, and gave a blessing and absolution to all the people, telling them to go in peace because their sins were forgiven. I thought that was a good way to do it, but it isn't approved by the Central Office. This bishop was eighty years old and didn't care what Central Office thought. But most priests are careful to make confession an opportunity for healing.

I know one priest who hears kids' confessions in plain sight in the church, but in a corner where nobody can hear - and people can see that he is smiling and supportive and not being harsh at all.

The practice of confession should be a healthy thing - acknowledging where we've failed and then letting go of it. But yeah, there are some church people who abuse the practice. They should burn in hell.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 04:21 PM

One question that never really occurred to me before: Is it unknown, or rare, or commonplace, for a priest to hear a "confession" (thinking especially of kids) and say "Don't worry about it, that wasn't really a sin" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 04:36 PM

Well, I spent 8 years in a Catholic seminary but had 4 to go before ordination. Yes, we talked a lot in Psychology and Moral Theology classes about scrupulousness and how to help people overcome the stereotypical "Catholic guilt." The emphasis was on removing the burden of guilt, not adding to the guilt. There was also a lot of talk about not letting children get all worried about stuff.

But yeah, there was a weird minority of seminarians and priests that were really into authority and judgment and guilt. Too bad the stereotypes are always built upon the "weird minorities" in a group.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:58 PM

This has been in the news here for a couple of months. Of course, we're 3 hours driving time from Salt Lake City.

Do a web search on "LDS sexual questioning". You'll find lots of information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:39 AM

Not directly related to this affair, but interestingly, linked to the influence all churches have over young peoples' minds, in my opinion.
Ex President of Ireland, Mary McAleese, a devout Catholic, has got herself into trouble for describing Baptism as creating "infant conscripts who are held to lifelong obligations of obedience.”
INFANT CONSCRIPTS
This is, I believe, further fallout from the ongoing revelations of Clerical sexual abuse and is also leading to an examination of the role of the church in educating children by demanding BAPTISMAL CERTIFICATES
It has further spread to the questioning of the Church's http://www.thejournal.ie/empire-of-misogyny-mary-mcaleese-3900044-Mar2018/
I have no love for the church - any church - but, having spent my life among believers; family, friends, neighbors and latterly, many old singers and musicians who grew up in a culture of simple Christian faith, I am convinced that, for their sakes I would rather see their church reformed to being a simple guide to their beliefs rather than the malign influential bodies they have been up to now.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:19 AM

I find I can speak to God without any help/rules/intervention by anybody else, in the privacy of my own home or even out in the countryside. If I feel I have 'sinned' (or acted wrongly, as I would describe it) I find I can pray a bit and determine to do better in the future, without anyone else listening to my tale of woe. I can express thankfulness, concern, sorrow, joy etc all by myself, without set prayers from any book.

This system works very well for me, but I wouldn't presume to force it on others. However, the main religions (and also the cults and sects) make it their business in life to control and interfere, regulate and punish any subscriber they can. They have the cheek to think they 'represent' God, and to know exactly what He wants. They see themselves as enforcers. To me, that's a bit sinister.


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:49 PM

When Hitler in 1940 portrayed himself as the Nazi Jesus [another prophet against the strict Hebrews] it was easy to propagandize against the Catholic Church because of the rampant male child sexual abuse by Priests. It is apparently a long and honored perversion.
Marriage is only one partial solution but long overdue.


The destruction of the Catholic Church by Hitler during the Pope Pious 12th years came perilously close and was in the hands of few.

The delay of the Catholic doomsday for a number of reasons was good for the church, but bad for the Jews.

Jim count to 10 first


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 03:33 AM

"Jim count to 10 first"
Why?
I don'rt wish to see the destruction of any church or religion - I just want them to do their job and stay way from where they don't belong
The very toxic Politics and Religion Cocktail is a mix that far to many churches indulge in - it's why I tend to admire the somewhat gentle, celibate Quakers
They eased the pains in my feet and fed me and my friends on the Aldermaston Marches - gawd bless 'em
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Confession as child sexual abuse
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:53 PM

I'm afraid, Jim, that politics and religion are natural companions. Both deal with what people value. My opposition to Trump and my support of the homeless and immigrants, are at least partly an expression of my religious faith. For me, my religious faith is a quest for justice and fairplay and brotherly love - values that are very important to me.

For other people, their religious faith is an expression of their fears and their quest to resolve their fears. Those fears are a major part of what drives their lives. Many voted for Trump because he allied himself with their fears and promised to relieve them.

Can't say that I know many celibate Quakers, but I certainly know many who are very active in political life - and very effective lobbyists for peace and justice.

-Joe-

P.S. And while Mary McAleese may be a 'devout Catholic,' she is certainly lacking in knowledge about her religion.


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Mudcat time: 10 August 9:42 PM EDT

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