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Is 'Trad music' sexist?

meself 05 Feb 18 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 05 Feb 18 - 02:51 PM
John P 05 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM
Jim McLean 05 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 Feb 18 - 07:39 AM
Bonzo3legs 05 Feb 18 - 07:09 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Feb 18 - 12:35 AM
GUEST,akenaton 04 Feb 18 - 06:44 PM
Gallus Moll 04 Feb 18 - 06:40 PM
GUEST 04 Feb 18 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 18 - 05:58 PM
gillymor 04 Feb 18 - 05:24 PM
Jackaroodave 04 Feb 18 - 05:08 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Feb 18 - 04:56 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Feb 18 - 04:51 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM
michaelr 04 Feb 18 - 01:17 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Feb 18 - 12:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Feb 18 - 11:36 AM
Vic Smith 04 Feb 18 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,akenaton 04 Feb 18 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 04 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM
GUEST 04 Feb 18 - 07:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Feb 18 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,akenaton 04 Feb 18 - 07:18 AM
Howard Jones 04 Feb 18 - 06:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM
TheSnail 04 Feb 18 - 05:43 AM
TheSnail 04 Feb 18 - 05:41 AM
Johnny J 04 Feb 18 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 18 - 05:09 AM
GUEST 04 Feb 18 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,akenaton 04 Feb 18 - 04:41 AM
BobL 04 Feb 18 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 18 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 04 Feb 18 - 03:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Feb 18 - 06:05 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Feb 18 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 18 - 01:11 PM
Bonzo3legs 03 Feb 18 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 03 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM
The Sandman 03 Feb 18 - 12:37 PM
Brian Peters 03 Feb 18 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 18 - 12:23 PM
Jackaroodave 03 Feb 18 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 18 - 12:14 PM
Jackaroodave 03 Feb 18 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 03 Feb 18 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,akenaton 03 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM
GUEST 03 Feb 18 - 11:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: meself
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 03:06 PM

Are you sure it wasn't a dead horse?


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 02:51 PM

Normal was as normal did.

So you're thinking the songs were "traditional" when they were brand new way back when?

Reminds me of the preacher who picked up a snake to beat a dead stick with.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: John P
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM

When introducing sexist, racist or violent songs, we'll often say something like, "The sentiments of this song in no way reflect the views of this music group." Further explanation depends on whether or not the audience is interested in the history of folk song.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM

That last posting reminded me of when I was working in Mull on the new pier at Craigenure, 1961 or so. On Saturday nights my Danish friend and I went to the local ceilidh which had a big policeman at the door, watching for drunks. Ole, my Danish friend was very drunk so one of the locals gave this advice, "Chust walk in backwards and he'll think you're coming out".


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 07:39 AM

Great lines from a trad country song!!!

I'd rather live a life of lies and fantasy
Than face the truth and realize you're leaving me
You built me up so high my heart can't stand the fall
And life without you love just isn't life at all
So walk out backwards if you must go
And please don't wave goodbye just wave one last hello
The truth won't hurt so much if I can't just pretend
So walk out backwards and I'll think you're walking in


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 07:09 AM

"I don't have any objection to people singing songs which have an outdated or even offensive content as long as it is made clear by the performer(s) that the song represents a snap shot in time and is not a blue print for the future and doesn't represent current."

How bloody sanctimoneous can a man or woman get??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 12:35 AM

Birth (of the blues, mind you).


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:44 PM

So THATS what you were typing in the chippy Gallus! :0)


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:40 PM

The Death of Queen Jane is about a woman in childbirth-----


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:11 PM

Thread Killers?


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:58 PM

Spot on. Boycott the bloody thing.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:24 PM

What's all this got to do with music? The originator of this thread is trying to use this section to rant and rave against "liberal elites" because he's been denied access to the actual B.S. section. Let's keep this section clean. That's me out.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:08 PM

"Perhaps you could tell us what purpose is more primary?

Well, to be pedantic, no one could, because "primary" is absolute, without greater or lesser degrees, as the word says, itself.

If one asks, "What is the primary purpose [in life]?" I suppose answers vary greatly from person to person and even from time to time. A vasectomy isn't a lobotomy.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 04:56 PM

The question still stands, asinine or not!


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 04:51 PM

If you're amoebas in a puddle of water you don't have much else to do. Since it isn't necessary that every creature reproduce, and with higher beings there are so many options in how you spend your time, I shouldn't have to answer such an asinine question. It takes a village guys. It takes a village.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM

Stop being suckers, good people. Stop posting to this benighted thread, I suggest.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 01:17 PM

The primary purpose of DNA is to replicate itself by any means possible. Anything beyond that is fiction, a thin veneer we choose to call civilization.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 12:58 PM

Hi Acme
Perhaps you could tell us what purpose is more primary.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 11:36 AM

appreciates women's prime purpose in society from the beginning of human life on Earth

You're digging that hole deeper and deeper. You wouldn't tell men that their primary purpose from the beginning of human life is to provide sperm, would you?

Linda Arnold sings about pregnancy and childbirth. From Folkways. Not historic, but it made it to the Smithsonian.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 11:00 AM

The Snail wrote -
"Mudcat doesn't do umlauts."


Bryan makes a very good point. Why does Mudcat not allow to enter the likes of :-

Ä Ö ?


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 08:06 AM

Dammit!!   both of the above guest posts were from me.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM

"The Jute Mill Song", is of course a song about women and alludes to the struggle some women had to feed and care for their children in a time when poverty was common to both sexes.
It is a powerful song but more a comment on poor working conditions which also were common to both sexes at that time.
Perhaps the Jute worker had been widowed and left to bring up her children alone? Dundee was a great fishing port and life expectancy amongst fishermen was low...accidents were common.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 07:53 AM

Avery good point too Al, unfortunately we cant really discuss the alternatives in this section.
My point relates more to the music.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 07:40 AM

the point is Ake - one of the many pluses in society in the relatively more affluent and more educated society in which we find ourselves - existentially we are free.

we don't have to accept our 'natural' role. and that goes for women, men and all points in between.

but who knows, for all we know that could just be the received wisdom of our age. that is my point.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 07:18 AM

I'm sorry Snail, but I honestly don't understand your comments?
John...I understand your point about time and place, but even "modern" contemporary folk music tends to ignore the natural role of women in society....as if it is something to be ashamed of or some kind of abusive behaviour instigated by men.....see most of Jim's trolling posts above?


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:43 AM

There are plenty of women's songs in the tradition, as well as plenty more in which the woman plays a key role. If there aren't many about childbirth or raising children maybe that's because women chose not to sing about them. Or are we to suppose that only men made folk songs?


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

yes it would be nice if we picked our primary purpose... i suppose economics dictated my primary role.luckily the continuation of the species wasn't left to me.
just as well, i would have been shit at being a parent. taught the kid to swear, smoke, eat and drink too much.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:43 AM

Mudcat doesn't do umlauts.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:41 AM

Kinder, K?che, Kirche


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:41 AM

I think you have to try and distinguish between a *Living* Tradition as opposed to a merely *historical* tradition.

Many of these songs are of their time and reflect the attitudes them while others are as equally relevant today as are newer songs which are composed in the traditional idiom.

I don't have any objection to people singing songs which have an outdated or even offensive content as long as it is made clear by the performer(s) that the song represents a snap shot in time and is not a blue print for the future and doesn't represent current. Also, it can be good to be challenged and also to realise how mmuch things have improved (if that's your view) since then.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:09 AM

"women's prime purpose in society from the beginning of human life on Earth. The survival of the species."
Jay-sus
Jurassic ark rides again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:03 AM

The point Acme is not whither women are "proud of their children", but whether society and the traditional music genre in particular appreciates women's prime purpose in society from the beginning of human life on Earth. The survival of the species.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 04:41 AM

An interesting point Bob, but leaders of political factions often figured in traditional song. The Diggers in the "World turned upside Down", Spanish Civil War Songs etc. The leaders of the struggle for Irish Independence going back three centuries?
I appreciate that contribution Al one of the most thoughtful on the thread.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: BobL
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 04:10 AM

"their role in giving birth [...] is rarely even noted in passing in traditional music"

Could this be because there was no point in writing songs about it? It was, and is, part of everyday life - immensely important but not actually newsworthy, not a thing to memorialise. All the recognition necessary will be found wherever there is a happy family.

I've always been curious that another subject almost absent from traditional songs is success in business or politics. Plenty about unjust laws and downtrodden labourers, occasional mention of returning with gold in great store, just one (Byker Hill) about a worker doing well from his job. Perhaps successful businessmen & politicians didn't need to write songs - they just carried on doing what they were good at.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 04:03 AM

"I wonder what future generations of singers would think of our society"
If people are still approaching songwriting the way you do, at least they will have been given the opportunity to look at how we are living - providing Donald Duck in the White House doesn't get us all blown up or kill us off fith global warming
Write on Bloke
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 03:00 AM

Some can be sexist, some can be pure misogynist, some homophobic, some racist etc etc.

Many sing the songs as looking back in history and see the songs as visiting a museum. Thats far cry from singing a present day opinion, although some creatures may do so.

I wrote a song about a gay laddie from Scotland who fled to London to escape his bigoted father. His mental health suffered, eventually went back and is unhappily living a lie in order to please his father.

I wonder what future generations of singers would think of our society if the Youtube etc versions are still around in 200 years time and a "collector" stumbles upon the plight of young Bruce?

I'm sure there are millions of better examples of songs from today that present a society that still has a long way to go, but you get my point I hope.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 06:05 PM

I think the problem is that we don't live in vacuum. We bring the prejudices of our own age to bear on the subject.

its always unwittingly, but its always the way.

take what you can from the past, or what appeals from techniques but NEVER make the arrogant mistake of thinking your understanding of a situation that prompted the song is superior to that of the creator.

there are so many instances of this. that anyone who has been around folksong for any length of time should understand this surely.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 01:21 PM

To almost all women that I know, their role in giving birth and nurturing a family are their proudest achievement

You have such low expectations of women. Of course we're proud of our children, but that is one portion of a woman's life. We're multi-taskers. The example I set for my children was to get an advanced degree, to work hard, to do artistic, creative, socially relevant things - which is only possible if I was out there doing all of those things for them to see. They learned to cook for themselves, but they also learned to think for themselves. Those were great links, Jim, but so was Bonzo's last link. Do you think we don't understand history, Ake? Bowdlerizing lyrics seems to me to be the act taken from a conservative stance. Liberals understand about teachable moments. My liberal folklorist folksinging father wouldn't think of changing the lyrics, but he made sure to explain what the song was about. There's nothing like the story of a maiden forced to marry a lord she doesn't love who turns herself into a tree to teach a present-day young woman that resistance is always important and that today we're better than that father.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 01:11 PM

"trad songs should be listened to, enjoyed and not be subject to pontification. They are what they are."
Who says you can't enjoy something and discuss it - even think about it in an unguarded moment!!
Songs are like books - they have many functions - once you start dictating to others what those functions might you begin to hear the pitter-patter of tiny jackboots
I was beginning to think all the Folk Police were on their hols!
Hope they repeat The Handmaiden's Tale - I missed it first time around
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 01:07 PM

A wonderfully sexist trad song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM

Well I happen to think that a woman"s role in the continuation and protection of the human species is of the utmost importance and deserves to be celebrated in our music.
Of course a very few women can be engineers or highwaymen, but the vast majority are quietly bringing up their families, providing love and protection to their children and endeavouring against all odds to bring them up as decent human beings.
That is womans prime purpose in life and without that purpose humanity would surely die......certainly worth celebrating in my opinion and more praiseworthy than any highwayman.....or engineer.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 12:37 PM

sing the songs and enjoy singing, to [parody an awful cliche] sing it say it sorted


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 12:26 PM

Some of the people here seem slightly confused, my point really concerned the lack of celebration of women in our music
To almost all women that I know, their role in giving birth and nurturing a family are their proudest achievement


Many of the women I know (even if I were to exclude several who are lesbian or willingly childless) would disagree with that, and some would take great exception to it.

On the other hand - as I tried to point out before - there are many songs celebrating women's bravery, defiance, intelligence, etc. Three out of the first four Child Ballads, for a start. Also Tam Lin, False Foodrage, Eppie Morrie, William Taylor, Jackie Munro, Maid on the Shore, Female Highwayman, Female Drummer, Female Captain, Lovely Joan, etc etc.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 12:23 PM

Whic do toy prefer Ake
THIS
OR MAYBE THIS ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 12:18 PM

Morris-ey: "You prove my point yet again; that you can't recognise it is a matter for you."

I'm delighted to find we agree, and I apologize for misunderstanding you.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 12:14 PM

"To almost all women that I know, their role in giving birth and nurturing a family are their proudest achievement,"
You did a survey, or aren't they worth asking?
Medieval crap
When our folk songs were being made women were the legal property of their husbands or fathers (not their mothers), they had no right to inherit, they couldn't vote and it was regular practice to sell them to an aspiring husband in order benefit the interests of their families.
Sex on demand by the husband was a legal right and rape within marriage was permitted by law into the 1990s
Violence towards was wives was common and was written off as "a domestic" by police up to the 1990s when the feminist magazine 'Spare Rib' made inroads into bringing about change
Violence against girls and women is still a major problem in Britain and is on the rise
One of the great values of our folk songs is that many of them reflect the position of women in society perfectly   
What planet do you live on Ake
Back to your man-shed I think Ake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 12:11 PM

Al: "look at all the religious paintings that were done to glorify a church that burned people in the market place. do you say well that does it for me, renaissance painting is of no value, because it pushes the values that i don't agree with?"

Al, that's a spurious analogy that's not worthy of you. No one is saying "All trad songs are of no value because they push values that I don't agree with."

The question was, "Are trad songs sexist?" and the consensus is, yes, some are. And surprise! they reflect the values of their context of composition.

Forgiveness doesn't come into it, and yes, we all have feet of clay. I think as you point out, it's distance that makes the difference, rather than any withholding judgment of archaic values. So Vic Smith's examples of dispelling that distance are much more fruitful than back-and-forth about cultural relativism.

To tell the truth, however, I'd rather look at Michelangelo's Pieta than the anti-semitic paintings of Jews mocking Jesus by Bosch and the Master of the Karlsruhe Passion. Once you know the purpose of these paintings, and how well they succeeded, it sort of takes the fun out of it. Nor do I care much for Pedro Berruguete's portrayal of St. Benedict presiding over an auto da fe, even if "Berruguete's way of representing the platform, and the delicacy, elegance and harmony of his colours are all indications that the innovations of Italian art of the fifteenth century had already found their way to Spain." Burning of the Heretics

Life is so short, and there is so much great art and music. Why bother with this sort of stuff?


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 11:48 AM

You prove my point yet again; that you can't recognise it is a matter for you.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM

Apologies, last guest post was mine...Ake.


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Subject: RE: Is 'Trad music' sexist?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 11:44 AM

Some of the people here seem slightly confused, my point really concerned the lack of celebration of women in our music
To almost all women that I know, their role in giving birth and nurturing a family are their proudest achievement, it is rarely even noted in passing in traditional music, which seems to be rooted in the heroic( and not so heroic) deeds of men. Perhaps the role of women as protectors of the species was appreciated and taken for granted in the centuries gone?   It is certainly not so today's turgid social climate, where "breeders" are universally despised amongst our biting and clawing elites.


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