mudcat.org: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]


BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!

Greg F. 18 Feb 18 - 04:34 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Feb 18 - 04:06 PM
Jeri 18 Feb 18 - 03:42 PM
DMcG 18 Feb 18 - 02:17 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Feb 18 - 01:17 PM
Greg F. 18 Feb 18 - 11:04 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Feb 18 - 03:34 AM
Mrrzy 15 Feb 18 - 07:26 AM
Mrrzy 14 Feb 18 - 10:28 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 18 - 01:27 PM
Mrrzy 13 Feb 18 - 11:14 AM
robomatic 12 Feb 18 - 07:45 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 12 Feb 18 - 02:04 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 12 Feb 18 - 02:03 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Feb 18 - 01:47 PM
Mrrzy 12 Feb 18 - 01:34 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Feb 18 - 01:22 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 12 Feb 18 - 11:42 AM
Senoufou 12 Feb 18 - 11:23 AM
Mrrzy 12 Feb 18 - 10:52 AM
Mrrzy 12 Feb 18 - 10:49 AM
Joe Offer 12 Feb 18 - 03:00 AM
Bonzo3legs 12 Feb 18 - 02:49 AM
Jackaroodave 11 Feb 18 - 07:49 PM
Greg F. 11 Feb 18 - 06:13 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 18 - 05:51 PM
keberoxu 11 Feb 18 - 04:34 PM
robomatic 11 Feb 18 - 04:25 PM
Mrrzy 11 Feb 18 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 18 - 08:10 AM
Bonzo3legs 11 Feb 18 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 18 - 07:07 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 11 Feb 18 - 06:27 AM
Bonzo3legs 11 Feb 18 - 04:21 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Feb 18 - 06:23 PM
Greg F. 10 Feb 18 - 06:01 PM
Bonzo3legs 10 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM
Donuel 10 Feb 18 - 12:36 PM
Bonzo3legs 10 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 10 Feb 18 - 10:57 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Feb 18 - 10:30 AM
Mrrzy 10 Feb 18 - 08:56 AM
Jackaroodave 09 Feb 18 - 09:38 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 18 - 07:23 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Feb 18 - 07:08 AM
BobL 09 Feb 18 - 04:43 AM
Jackaroodave 08 Feb 18 - 05:28 PM
robomatic 08 Feb 18 - 03:45 PM
Jackaroodave 08 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM
Bonzo3legs 08 Feb 18 - 07:52 AM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:34 PM

And then there are those who use their arse instead of their brain.......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:06 PM

"Changing world"??? I'll say so, a world of cranks who don't know their arse from their elbow!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 03:42 PM

Every time I come in here, it makes me sad, because Bonzo has found himself in a changing world he doesn't understand, and instead of trying, he lashes out.

Just sit back and ask yourself whose problem all of this "GET OFF MY LAWN" shit is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 02:17 PM

Since many of us express a preference for the proper noun used to refer to us ("Call me Dave") I see nothing anomalous for preferring a certain pronoun.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 01:17 PM

Bonkers gender neutral brigade


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 11:04 AM

But you can insist on OLD pronouns because you're a crank, evidently.

Right you are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 03:34 AM

Sorry but you can't insist on new pronouns just because you're a crank.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:26 AM

And I listened to it. I especially like the trans person saying something like, not my *preferred* pronoun, *my* pronoun; the others are not correct.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 10:28 PM

Thanks! Available here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:27 PM

There was an interesting programme on BBC Radio 4 at 4 o'clock this afternoon called Word Of Mouth which examined the issue of language and gender identity. It was very interesting so if you can access it it's well worth a listen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:14 AM

I agree that nonbinary is clunky and promotes the idea of binarity, if that's the word. But I don't feel Universal or Inclusive, I feel as if I were neither male nor female according to the usual definitions, or male on one side and female on the other (sides being inside and outside, not left and right), so neither or both is more "right" for me. I am neither cis nor trans, in that while I definitely do not identify as the sex assigned to me at birth by the appearance of my genitals, I do not indentify completely as the "other" one either.

I am reminded of the term Atheist for someone without god beliefs, which includes the theism we reject right there in the word. But "freethinker" to me seems PC and prettified, and I wish the hoodoo could come off the word Atheist. But I would like a PC and prettified term for Nonbinary if it was as nice. Gender-free? Still uses gender. Hmmm. Ideas?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 07:45 PM

I'm sure all you girls will get it all figured out. (Sorry about that word 'all').


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:04 PM

LOL - I wrote my "I dunno" before I even saw Steve's. Guess that's the new bottom line...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:03 PM

Couldn't we get rid of the whole numerical thing altogether and start speaking (thinking) in more global terms? The "non' in non-binary just seems to emphasise a dual nature, even while denying it.

Maybe something like Inclusive, or Universal? I dunno. If I come up with any decent ideas, I'll post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:47 PM

I dunno. I get confused. I'll go with the flow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:34 PM

Um, if men and women are the only possible categories, the category (not the men, nor the women) is binary. If you do not indentify as either of those possibilities, or as both at the same time, then nonbinary is the only available term.

It is a lot easier to re-purpose an existing word than to invent a new one. "You" used to be the plural in English when "thee" was the singular, now You is both plural and singular and "thee" is obsolete (unless you're Quaker). So "they" becoming a singular pronoun in English is easy, and is already happening anyway.

Steve Shaw and my darlin' Bonnie Shaljean, what existing term do you think could be repurposed to mean nonbinary? That is, would be better than nonbinary?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:22 PM

Non-binary is ridiculous. Binary relates to being in either one state or another. By that measure, as a full-blown bloke (I think) I'm non-binary. I'd have thought that people who define themselves as transgender have far more claim to be binary. Still, if it catches on it'll become standard English and that'll be that. Or this and that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:42 AM

I do think the language police will need to settle for three categories, especially since one is neutral. A new invented pronoun for every single mathematical permutation is going to be greeted with resistance & resentment, and will just wind up being more divisive than ever.

I find "non-binary" so clunky and jargon-ish that I can't see it being widely adopted either. And "tripartite" isn't much better, I know. (Threefold? It's more poetic anyway.)

In the end, it's up to each person to decide - or discover - for themself where their pronoun preference lies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:23 AM

In Norfolk we have

Oi
Yew (singular)
Yew-tergether (plural)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:52 AM

And keberoxu, I need a pic!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:49 AM

French cannot be gender neutral, but since gender applies to inanimate objects too, I'm OK.

Both *I* and *we* are gender-neutral, as are You, thee, and y'all. Youse guys is getting there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:00 AM

I think it's good if language can be gender-neutral. Language that expresses preference for the male gender, subtly indicated that the male gender is thought to be superior.

But I don't think people can be gender-neutral. People who call themselves "non-binary" have their own place somewhere in the spectrum, but they are most definitely not "neutral." The word "non-binary" does sound awkward, but it's the best term I've heard so far. It will take time to develop language that works without being awkward.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:49 AM

Nice to see real very brave men decking a terrorist in "15:17 to Paris". You won't get pansy gender neutrals in a Clint Eastwood film thank you very much!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:49 PM

"They frolicked all night in uncensored delight"

Thanks, Bonnie. Appreciate it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:13 PM

Charles I would be proud.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:51 PM

In 1989, Maggie Thatcher announced to the nation "we have become a grandmother."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:34 PM

....and not just any fridge, Mrrzy,
but
Bonnie Shaljean's fridge, to boot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:25 PM

So is this why English sovereigns refers to themselves as "We"? Is this just an example of preternatural gender fairness, or a pluralism of 'we' all English sovereigns through time? Was Henry VIII's codpiece just a personal affectation? Maybe Elizabeth had one under all that upholstery?

We're behind the looking glass, people!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:21 AM

He already means anyone who identifies as male whether they were born that way or not, I thought... and she for females, ditto.

I'm on a fridge! I am so flattered!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:10 AM

Definitely


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:22 AM

Possibly


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:07 AM

"They" as a gender-neutral singular has been used in English for at least 800 years. I don't see a problem with it, along with related words such as "them" or "their." I do see a problem with using "he" for everybody, and I'm not thinking of filling my prose with loads of "he or she"-type constructions. English is a noble and mighty language and we don't need to be bolting on clumsy and awkward things like that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:27 AM

Word meanings evolve over time, to reflect the changing societies they serve. I don't see why we couldn't keep He and She, but expand their definitions, so that "he" indicates anyone born or currently identifying as male, and "she" signifies the same for females. For those who are on the border or prefer not to be classified, say "they" and its related forms. Theirself and Themself may take some getting used to, but it feels natural.

The lack of a singular neuter-gender pronoun for humans has always been a headache for writers, in a million ways unrelated to political correctness. So much so that "they" is becoming acceptable whether one is speaking of a group or an individual. Word-nerd that I am, the grammar still jars on my ear a bit - but not as much as the verbal hoops authors sometimes jump through to avoid the issue.

I would like us to [be allowed to] go on using He, She, and They - but in awareness of their increased field of interpretation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:21 AM

University professor sparked vicious battle over gender neutral pronouns

It's a good job somebody has some sense!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:23 PM

noted


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:01 PM

Bozo, what the fuck has that got to do with anything? Or is it just gratuitous bullshit, of which you are an acknowledged master?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM

The North Korean cheerleading squad, which will perform at the Winter Olympics opening ceremonies, this Friday, in Pyeongchang, South Korea, occupies its own stratosphere of weaponized comeliness and discipline. The squad, which has been dubbed, in South Korea, the “army of beauties,” presents a doll-house version of military service: girls in their late teens and early twenties are plucked from the country’s most prestigious universities and charged with making North Korea look good. The cheerleaders are chosen on the basis of appearance and ideology—they undergo background checks, to insure that there are no defectors or enemy sympathizers in their families, and they must be pretty (and at least five feet three)

They are all nice girls - Girls are always right!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:36 PM

The young speak of the gender tree of many branches.
When I was young just climbing trees was thrilling


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM

gender neutral brigate - bonkers as vegans!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:57 AM

The use of "perverted" bothers me too. It just comes across to my ear as insulting, and I don't have a horse in that particular race. But I know plenty of folks who would either take, or intend, offense by that word. Following on from Nigel, how about:

A cisgender gay man named Broome
And a lesbian trans took a room.
They frolicked all night
In uncensored delight,
Which shows you should never assume.

And this is going up on my fridge door:

> If you sit down, all toilets are gender-neutral.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:30 AM

Grotesque


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:56 AM

OK, a few points: If you sit down, all toilets are gender-neutral. Also, when I was younger, metrosexual only applied to men who seemed gay (by the straight stereotypes of gays, mostly caring about their own appearance) but weren't. And third, when I came out as non-gendered/binary a couple of years ago, I only had to do it with my Anglophone friends; in French I can be as male as a chin or as female as a table, doesn't apply to me, don't matter. In English, though, I really dislike being referred to in the third person with a gendered pronoun. Either of them.

I think I told this story, that the total rando stranger I shared a cabin with on the Star Trek cruise used They in the third person when referring to me, and did it so naturally that I almost jumped in with Wait, no, that was me, who are you talking about? So I guess I better get used to my own preferences!

Also (small digression) in Hungarian, like Malinke, there is no gender; Hungarians don't usually use pronouns at all as the verbs are conjugated, but they have them for stress and emphasis purposes, and there is only "third person singular" - not He or She. Or him or her. There are words for things which have gender, like man and woman, mother and father; further digression, they have no word for brother or sister because you have to specify whether your sib is older or younger. So they have older bro, younger bro, older sis, younger sis, twin, and sibling, but no just plain brother or sister.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:38 PM

Thanks for the improvements, hope you had fun!

But I was kind of fond of "their," as it could mean the gay man's room, or the transgendered lesbian's, if that's either's pronoun of preference--or both in any case.

Jim: "How many more revelations will it take to make the eejits realise that "perversion" exists only in the eye of the beholder?"

Jim, I hope I clarified that the poem was a celebration of "perversion." Compare "polymorphous perversity," " the ability to find erotic pleasure in all parts of the body." But like the second line, it could have been done better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:23 AM

Marlon Brando and Richard Prior !!!!
How many more revelations will it take to make the eejits realise that "perversion" exists only in the eye of the beholder?
Ji, Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:08 AM

From: BobL - PM
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:43 AM
Second line doesn't scan, unless you reduce lesbian to two syllables. How about "Took a lesbian trans to his room"?


Problem is with metre (accented syllables) as well as scansion.
How about:

A cisgender gay man named Broome
And a lesbian trans took a room.
They frolicked all night
In perverted delight,
Which shows you should never assume.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: BobL
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:43 AM

Second line doesn't scan, unless you reduce lesbian to two syllables. How about "Took a lesbian trans to his room"?

On second thoughts no - a gender-specific pronoun would be inappropriate in this context. Bugger.

On third thoughts better stop before I get in any deeper.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 05:28 PM

"Is perverted still okay?"

I meant it in an honorific sense, but maybe it wasn't a good idea: "creative" would probably be better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:45 PM

Is perverted still okay?

I don't want George Harrison to be left out as non-courant:

… I don't know how you were diverted
You were perverted too
I don't know how you were inverted
No one alerted you…


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM

KennyB: "Can anyone fit in the appropriate words of or Im short of a Limerick?"

A cisgender gay man named Broome
And a trans lesbian went to their room.
They frolicked all night
In perverted delight,
Which shows you should never assume.

fify


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 07:52 AM

Trudeau, behaving like a wanker!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

 

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 21 February 11:51 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.