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BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!

Bonzo3legs 26 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jan 18 - 04:55 PM
Greg F. 26 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jan 18 - 05:04 PM
Iains 26 Jan 18 - 05:18 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM
Senoufou 26 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jan 18 - 05:28 PM
Mrrzy 26 Jan 18 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 05:52 PM
Greg F. 26 Jan 18 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 05:56 PM
Jeri 26 Jan 18 - 05:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 06:05 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 06:10 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 06:11 PM
Jackaroodave 26 Jan 18 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 06:12 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jan 18 - 07:01 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 07:19 PM
Donuel 26 Jan 18 - 07:26 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 07:37 PM
meself 26 Jan 18 - 07:46 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 08:00 PM
frogprince 26 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 18 - 08:30 PM
meself 26 Jan 18 - 08:58 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 11:36 PM
Senoufou 27 Jan 18 - 01:44 AM
meself 27 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM
meself 27 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM
BobL 27 Jan 18 - 03:13 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jan 18 - 03:31 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM
Iains 27 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM
Mr Red 27 Jan 18 - 06:57 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jan 18 - 08:48 AM
wysiwyg 27 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM
Iains 27 Jan 18 - 10:07 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 18 - 10:17 AM
Senoufou 27 Jan 18 - 11:11 AM
keberoxu 27 Jan 18 - 11:21 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jan 18 - 11:24 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 18 - 12:00 PM
Jackaroodave 27 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM
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Subject: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM

The gender neutral brigade - bonkers!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:55 PM

Some really aggressively obsessed cranky women


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM

Some really aggressively obsessed cranky Bozos is more to the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:04 PM

I suggest you provide some reasoned argument instead of your usual insults lad.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:18 PM

Just keep polluting the water with synthetic oestrogen and the problem will eventually go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM

You are decades behind the times, Bonzo. You're a luvly feller in many regards but the world is changing. It's great to be trans, it's great to be a feminist, it's great to oppose pussy-grabbing, it's great to have me-too, it's great to bollock people who won't bake your same-sex wedding cake. Tell me: are you the sort of bloke who still thinks that gay means happy and carefree?

You don't mean it, do you, you ould bloody reprobate! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM

Firstly I think it's most interesting to be made to realise just how gender-stereotyped our language is. I've never considered this before, but our culture is, so it would seem, geared to accepting only two types of humans, and having a plethora of words/expressions to that end.

Secondly, I see no harm in modifying our vocabulary if this would make people who don't regard themselves as either 'male' or 'female' more comfortable. I wouldn't want to upset or exclude anyone by my choice of words.

Thirdly, language does evolve, but fairly slowly. This new idea may take quite some time to become accepted by society.

Lastly, there are those (like Bonzo, I assume) who find all this ridiculous and unnecessary. Obviously there will be voluble dissenters and scoffers.
I'm all for it myself, but can understand the other point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:28 PM

The whole point is that we should not have unacceptable language forced on us by a tiny tiny minority. If they want to use that very wierd language, let them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:29 PM

As someone who identifies as non-binary and has asked people to use They when referring to me in the third person...

I was sharing a cabin with a young person to whom I told this, and he was so fine with it he referred to me as They in the third person and I found myself wondering whom he was talking about! I almost jumped in and said No, that was me, when I realized what he had said.

I need some getting used to my own preferences!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:52 PM

Let's just celebrate humanity in all its multifarious guises. Nobody's forcing language on you. I come on here and use exactly the language I want to use. King Canute demonstrated to his local idiots that you can't turn back the tide. Language evolution is the ultimate democracy. Ultimate because, unlike lots of other things in democracies, it's free! A cat can look at a queen!

Oops...


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:52 PM

You don't mean it, do you, you ould bloody reprobate!

Yes he farking well does.

Therin lies the problem....................


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:56 PM

I'm not sure. He loves to goad but I've detected a soft centre. Come on now, Bonzo. We're talking about you and you bloody love it, don't you!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:56 PM

Not that much of a minority, since I believe a lot of us have problems with gender-based terminology. I think that's primarily what your problem is: not knowing where the hell your familiar, safe world went. You're adrift in a changing sea, and you're angry about it-not the best way to deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:05 PM

It is difficult to change language but change it must. Let me ask an open question to those dissenting. Why does it matter if we refer to someone as male or female? Surely it would be better for all of we freed ourselves from preconceived notions of what men and women can or cannot do and judged everyone on their own merits rather than on their gender?

Gnomes have always been gender free of course. Right down to our beards...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:10 PM

Top beard or bottom beard, Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:11 PM

Bonzo never comes across as angry. Just wackily deluded. And he loves it...


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:11 PM

It's only common courtesy to call people what they want to be called, and not something else. I would expect the guardians of traditional values to be particularly scrupulous about this.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:12 PM

Agreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:01 PM

The female writer hit the nail on the head. I think it’s little more than a few troublemakers.   Nothing wrong with evolving language, but everything is wrong with imposed language.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:19 PM

Who's imposing language on you? Nobody! When's the last time a cop (or one of Franco's goons - I've lost track of where you live) ever picked you up for your un-PC talk? Never! Claiming that language is forced on you is utter bullshit. It's an illusion resulting from the fact that you have still to migrate yourself out of the nineteenth century!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:26 PM

New pronouns like hiser will evolve or disappear into one pronoun like in Chinese.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:37 PM

Using language that's acceptable, is very confusing to me. I try not to be offensive, but I'm a clumsy sort of person and get myself into awkward situations at times. As usual, I like Mrrzy's attitude and humor about such things.

Here in California, we have a law that decreed that all "one-holer" bathrooms are Unisex. To me, that seems absolutely sensible. If one restroom is occupied, why should I have to wait if the other one is open? Perhaps it may encourage business owners to provide one restroom in the future, not two; but for now, it's a great advancement.

The North Carolina legislature has done all kinds of legislative gymnastics to put transgender people in awkward positions when it comes to bathroom use. When I was visiting Dani and Janie and Amos in Hillsborough NC last fall, I noted that restaurant owners are waging a revolution of their own against the legislature, and declaring all restrooms Unisex, like we do in California. It sure felt nice to see the restaurant owners rebel against the bigots in the legislature.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: meself
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:46 PM

I have no problem in theory with gender-neutral pronouns - my beef is that, where possible, we should avoid adding confusion to the language - which this new twist on the use of 'they' does. I wish some egg-heads who care about language for its own sake had been consulted; it wouldn't have been impossible to come up with a less problematic work-around. It looks like a fait accompli already, though .....


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:00 PM

"One" works quite well in a lot of situations, meself.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM

I find it interesting that Bonzo referred to "Some really aggressively obsessed cranky women", when the woman in the group who really stood out as "aggressively cranky" was the one taking the "Bonzo stance".


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:30 PM

In many circumstances I find myself having to ditch my beloved construction, start afresh and build my sentence all over again. Sometimes, I read my posts back to myself and wish I'd done that more often. I'm a bit guilty of over-elaborating at times, but how hard it is to consign your beloved linguistic baby into the bin. So I have no patience with people who arrogantly declare that they are being somehow constricted in the way they can write by by the "demands" of disadvantaged minorities. Quite simply, they are not. Type whatever you like, Bonzo et al. It won't be the repressed and misunderstood minorities who shoot you down. It'll be me. And maybe Joe. Or Greg. Or Jim. Or Dave. All totally masculine testosterone-fuelled hulks to me knowledge. Or Jeri or Maggie. People with a balanced and a damn sight more modern and empathetic view of the diversity of humanity than the one you are celebrating.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: meself
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:58 PM

It doesn't matter what you or I think, Joe - it's been decided: he, she, they, and they.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:36 PM

Well, I dunno, meself. If I'm the one doing the talking, I'm the one choosing the words I speak. I was raised otherwise, so it's unlikely that I will ever get used to using "they" (a plural term) to refer to an individual person.

However, I have been quite adept for years at substituting gramatically-correct words that are not gender-specific - "One," "persons/people/humans," "we," "you" - and many more. I believe in that practice, and do it as often as I can.

But "they" to refer to a singular person? That makes me cringe. "They" are going to have to come up with something more gramatically elegant, something that flows a little better and doesn't sound like a Neil Diamond song....not that I can find the damn song when I'm looking for it.

But "between you and I," we know the songs I'm talking about:
    Shinin in the sky
    For you and I
    Makes me wanna die...


And because of this, Neil Diamond songs are going to play in my head all night until I come across that song.

Here's one (click):

    Me and you
    Are subject to
    The blues now and then


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:44 AM

I'm old enough to remember when people called gay folk 'poofter' or 'pansy'. I can even remember black people being called 'nig-nogs'. It makes me cringe with shame even typing those words now, but back then it was nothing out of the ordinary. We've adapted our choice of words in order to be considerate of others' dignity and to respect one another.
I would always want to be kind and aware of others' feelings. Therefore I'm happy to adapt my language to this end.
It's just a bit complicated at first, but I'll get the hang of it I'm sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: meself
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM

I'm with you - I'm going to have a tough time getting my head and tongue around 'they' as singular, in direct speech - and, yes, we do use 'they' as singular in casual speech in certain situations ("Someone was here, and they ate my porridge"), but it's a big jump from that to what is being mandated now. And no one is asking us ....


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: meself
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM

(That was directed to Joe).


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: BobL
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 03:13 AM

Once upon a time, like a century or two ago, were not the grammatically masculine pronouns accepted as having an inclusive sense? It seems that substituting "he/she" for "he" has only happened during my lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 03:31 AM

Perhaps equality should be changed to hequality or shequality depending on the day!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM

My wife is referred to as “this charming lady” by her Consultant Orthopaedic Spinal Surgeon - that is correct reference !!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM

Make sure she always has a chaperone is my advice!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM

Aha, 10 minutes or less each at £175 a time, I don’t know what the hospital charge but he must be on highest tax rate!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

Four years ago, around the time I needed spinal surgery, my NHS back doctor always saw me just a few days after I rang for an appointment, and he did my operation about six weeks (which included an MRI) after I first went to him. I wasn't a particular emergency either. That was Mr Wafai at Barnstaple. Great bloke. Didn't cost me a bean. I suppose the Tories have had an extra four years since then to carry on wrecking the NHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM

A couple of generations ago homosexuality was dismissed as an aberration and sodomy prosecuted when discovered. We now live in a more "enlightened age?" where being gay is nothing more than a label(to most)
Probably in another 50 years gender issues will no longer cause any kind of controversy.
I wonder how it will all be resolved in mixed jails and the military?


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM

The gender-neutral use of "they" and related words ("themselves," etc.) as singular has been part of the English language for 800 years and is completely unobjectionable. In common parlance it's far more popular than using just "he" for everybody, or clumsy constructions such as "he or she." And don't get me started on silly things like "s/he"!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:57 AM

synthetic oestrogen ???

Tell that to the poor cows wot provide it.

There is an American craze that is creeping in over here in Contra Dancing. Larks and Ravens.

The problem being that old farts like me have is: to translate a call for Larks to Gent before we hear what us blokes is (sic) meant to do. And if it is a bloke bearing down on you is it (sic) a Lark (translate) Gent or a blokess dancing as a Lark or did I not see the raven haired Lark who looks like a Raven in the wrong place looking as confused as I am?

And must I dance in Waltz hold with a Man-Raven who is mentally turning as he would always turn?

Women dancing as men is confusing but at least they usually have it right in their head.

Confused? You will be!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:48 AM

So Ladies and Gentleman, I will not have a way of speaking imposed on me by some microscopic minority. Do they (3rd person plural) honestly believe that they (3rd person plural) will impose their way of speaking, just because they (3rd person plural) can't make up their minds from day to day whether they (3rd person plural) are male or female????

I don't think so!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

Judgemental much?


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:07 AM

100 years ago if you mentioned the idea of gay marriage you would likely end up in bedlam.
Difficult to be emphatic when trying to describe the mores of the future. Can't even predict the weather or election outcomes with any accuracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:17 AM

They were there doing the "imposing" 750 years before you came along, Bonzo, and they're a majority!


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:11 AM

I try to imagine myself in the shoes of LGBT folk. It must be very difficult for them, navigating through today's world and facing stereotyping and prejudice. Being referred to as one thing while knowing those epithets don't apply is upsetting. If changing the odd word here and there makes them more comfortable, what's the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:21 AM

Joe Offer and I were exchanging PM's recently
about the bothersome word "binary."

I mean,
it isn't a bit bothersome in a data-processing context, "binary."
As long as we're talking about computers, machine language,
Base Two maths, and strings of zeroes and ones,
"binary" fits right in.

Then I am confronted with my fellow human beings
describing each other, describing themselves,
as "binary" or "non-binary", and
I go, HEY, are we talking about
humans or computers??


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:24 AM

If people are OK with changing words to make LGBT folk comfortable that's fine, but I will not be chastised for not doing so, I'll have no part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM

Even worse are the "gender neutral vegans".


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:00 PM

How about born-again Christian gender-neutral homeopathy-loving vegan organic sackcloth-wearing biodynamic gardeners? You OK with them? What if they only eat muesli with soya milk? Does that make a difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: The grotesque 'gender neutral' craze!
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM

'Even worse are the "gender neutral vegans".'

That would be me. I'm honored.


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