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BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem

robomatic 03 Feb 18 - 11:13 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 18 - 08:29 PM
robomatic 03 Feb 18 - 08:03 PM
Joe Offer 02 Feb 18 - 10:00 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 18 - 07:43 PM
Joe Offer 01 Feb 18 - 04:25 PM
Greg F. 01 Feb 18 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 18 - 04:37 AM
Joe Offer 31 Jan 18 - 10:16 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 18 - 08:25 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 18 - 07:30 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 18 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 18 - 08:40 AM
bobad 31 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM
bobad 31 Jan 18 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM
Joe Offer 31 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM
Joe Offer 31 Jan 18 - 12:54 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 08:42 PM
bobad 30 Jan 18 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM
bobad 30 Jan 18 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM
Greg F. 30 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM
bobad 30 Jan 18 - 06:24 PM
Greg F. 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM
bobad 30 Jan 18 - 05:26 PM
bobad 30 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 18 - 04:48 PM
robomatic 30 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 08:11 AM
bobad 30 Jan 18 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 07:50 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM
Joe Offer 30 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 04:00 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 11:13 PM

You by any chance a relation of George Bernard? You don't write like him (yet).

I agree with the sentiment of your last post but it doesn't really change my post. We are not on the streets here, we're in a forum using words to spread heat and light. It is our choice how we choose to do that. My comments were of course my opinion (and of course it's right).


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 08:29 PM

Well maybe. But contentious and abusive and repetitive people are important in this world. They are the way we get things changed. I dare say the Suffragettes were regarded as contentious and abusive and repetitive in their time, as were the people who, contrary to establishment wishes, opposed Mosley and fascism in the East End in the thirties. I suppose that Harvey Weinstein and his fellow-travellers regard some of his women victims as contentious, abusive and repetitive. It would be very nice for the Israeli regime if all their adversaries were non-contentious, non-abusive and non-repetitive, we know that. We know how much inconvenience contentious, abusive and repetitive people cause the powers that be. We call it democracy, actually. Your job, if you disagree with them, is to take them on, not try to shout them down as inconveniences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 08:03 PM

There is a clear distinction to be made in this and other threads. between folks who can make clear statements of facts and events and link to useful articles from outside this thread, yet be critical of Israel while open to ideas and concepts and refrain from ad hominem attacks. I have no problem with these posters. There are other posters who are contentious and abusive and repetitive. They do not have anything new to add but they insist on bringing in the same old tropes (Nazis especially. What reason is there to bring up Nazis except to be personally offensive?) and they are easily provoked into personal observations. They are ultimately not convincing even to themselves (or they wouldn't be so repetitive and self-righteous).


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 10:00 PM

I don't completely understand the status of East Jerusalem. We stayed at an Arab-owned hotel in what we were told was East Jerusalem, but we were on the west side of the infamous Wall. If I'm understanding the story correctly, Israel "annexed" the portion of East Jerusalem that is west of the Wall - and this is valuable commercial property. I'm wondering if the Arabs living there became Israeli citizens. The Wall is 708 kilometres (440 mi) long. Along its length, it cuts off various Palestinian enclaves and denies 25,000 Palestinians access to Palestine.

It is true that before the Wall was built, Jewish Israelis did have reason to fear suicide bombers, especially in Jerusalem. Suicide bombings were a frequent occurrence, and the number of suicide bombings has dwindled to almost nothing. But in building the Wall, the Israelis did not take the needs of Palestinians into consideration, and that's a major injustice.

And then there's Gaza. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world. It is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi). That's about twice the size of the Sea of Galilee, and a little bit smaller than Lake Tahoe in California - with a population of 1.85 million. It has a border with Egypt that is 11 kilometers (6.8 mi) long, and it has been able to get supplies from Egypt off and on - mostly off, I understand. Otherwise, its other land borders are adjacent to Israel, and Israel currently does allow Gaza to import non-military goods through Israel. Its Mediterranean coastline is 40 kilometers (25 mi).

There is a small resort, Al-Bustan on the beach north of Gaza City. Between 1967 and 2005, Israel established 21 settlements in Gaza, comprising 20% of the total territory. I'm imagining that these Jewish "settlements" were ritzy seaside condominium complexes like I saw all around the Palestinian territory outside Jerusalem. In 2005, Israel evicted all 9,000 Jewish settlers from Gaza and abandoned its efforts to occupy the Gaza Strip. Gaza is not far from Tel Aviv, and short-range missiles have occasionally been fired from Gaza into the outskirts of Tel Aviv.

I didn't get a chance to visit Gaza, so all I know is what I read. Gaza does show signs of progress, however. Th literacy rate is very high, and there are college level schools in the Gaza Strip.

I've said this before, and some people have scoffed. But I think it's important to realize that more and more, Palestininians are becoming proud of their nation and its ability to continue existing and growing in defiance of all efforts by Israel to control it.

My sister has hosted a number of Palestinian exchange students in Wisconsin, and I have met at least two or three of them. These are good kids, and they're smart, and they're proud of Palestine and defiant against Israel.

-Joe-


This looks like an interesting article from the Jerusalem Post: Living in Jerusalem Behind the Wall. It's an interesting article, and the photos are especially disturbing. I thought I hadn't seen the refugee camps, but our bus drove right past the Qalandiya camp on the highway to Tel Aviv just west of Jerusalem, and through the neighborhood described in the article. We couldn't see much. It was a crowded area, and there was a big prison adjacent to the military checkpoint we went through. Our guide said the prison was for Arab political prisoners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 07:43 PM

Israel uses tourism to legitimise illegal settlements. All over the internet today. Here's a snippet or two from the Guardian report.

Israel is developing archaeological and tourism sites to legitimise illegal settlements in Palestinian neighbourhoods of Jerusalem, European Union diplomats in the city have warned.

A leaked report acquired by the Guardian cited projects in parts of East Jerusalem, occupied by Israel since 1967, that are being used as a political tool to modify the historical narrative and to support, legitimise and expand settlements.

The report identified settler-run excavation sites in the heart of majority-Arab districts, a proposed cable car project with stops on confiscated land and the designation of built-up urban areas as national parks....

...Marginalisation of Palestinians, who comprise about 37% of the city's residents, continued unabated, with more than 130 building demolitions and the displacement of 228 people, it said...

...Archaeology and tourism development by government institutions as well as private settler organisations established what it said was a "narrative based on historic continuity of the Jewish presence in the area at the expense of other religions and cultures." Chief among them, the report warned, was the City of David, a government-funded archeological park in the Palestinian neighbourhood of Silwan that provides tours in the ruins of ancient Jerusalem.

The site is operated by a settler organisation "promoting an exclusively Jewish narrative, while detaching the place from its Palestinian surroundings."

Approximately 450 settlers live under heavy protection in Silwan, the report said, alongside almost 10,000 Palestinians. Continued evictions of Palestinian families and the increased Israeli security presence have created a particular tension, it warned.

More recently, a cable car project approved by the Israeli cabinet in May plans to connect West Jerusalem with the Old City, part of Jerusalem internationally recognised as occupied....


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 04:25 PM

I admire your passion, Jim. I am sorry that you are so quick to judge me. I prefer to explore issues before coming to conclusions.

My description of my observations was hardly "anodyne." From the very first post, I described the outrage of the settlements, the violent conduct of the soldiers, and the fact that non-Jewish citizens of Israel are treated as second-class citizens.

All of this stuff that you condemn, is your imagination of what I think. Same goes for your endless condemnations of what you think I think of the Catholic Church.

I prefer to carefully gather facts and explore alternatives and find solutions that are constructive, peaceable, and beneficial for all. That takes careful thought and discussion.

Quick condemnation doesn't accomplish anything.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 08:59 AM

How can that be just?

Because God gave then the land to do with whatever thay want.

Next question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 04:37 AM

"sophomoric know-it-all who has all the answers and thinks me The Enemy"
Joe
I was born almost exactly six months before the secret Wannsee Conference took place, where the Nazis first sat down and carefully planned the murders of up to and probably more than ten million human beings (we tend only to remember six million of them nowadays)
The events coming from that conference affected my and my family's lives - for me, it meant I didn't get to know the man who was the greatest and most important influence on my life and thinking until I was about ten years old - my father.
He and his parents cared enough about their fellow human beings to take to the streets when they learned what was happening in 1930s Germany, he went to Spain because of those events, was wounded, captured and persecuted and mentally tortured for the period of his captivity
When he returned home, he found himself with an MI5 record as a "premature anti-fascist", blacklisted from a promising career and condemned to Eternal Damnation by his/your Church (luckily, he had shaken off the spiritual bogeymen that your church had saddled him with in his youth)
He passed on to me in the 15 years I knew him up to his death, a deep concern about how human beings treat each other.
The events of Europe in the 1930s and 40s have formed a large part of my thinking throughout my life, and were added to by the Jewish People I knew and befriended in the four years I lived in Manchester
You came back from Israel with and anodyne picture of what was happening in Israel, berating us for not having been there and telling us we would like it if we went - completely at odds with my own interpretation of the events there.
You have been both dismissive of those who didn't accept your rose-tinted picture and abusive towards the arguments we have put forward, refusing to respond to any of them - you still haven't done so.
You complain about being abused, yet you have done your share of abusing.
You moved gradually from your rosy, uncritical picture of Israel, to fence-sitting and now you appear to be edging into maybe a rational discussion (nobody is asking for surrender - just an exchange of ideas and experiences)
Your complaining about being whacked by both sides is, in my opinion, the result of your shifting position - unfortunately that's the way arguments are conducted on this forum (guilty as charged on that one)
What concerned me most is that someone who I respect (while disagreeing with strongly on some subjects) took the position you did on so obvious (to me anyway) a massive abuse of humanity - a repetition of history where the victims have become the perpetrators.
I apologise if I have overstated my case - put it down to a poor upbringing - but please don't reduce my concern for something that has occupied a large part of my life and thinking to an academic study ("some sophomoric know-it-all")
It's a little more than that, to me anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 10:16 PM

Bobad, I am curious about the history of both Jewish and Arab peoples in Palestine. I join discussions like this to try to learn, to test out ideas and to see what other people have to say, and then

Whack!

- I get hit upside the head by some sophomoric know-it-all who has all the answers and thinks me The Enemy, when all I was trying to do was think and discuss. And in this thread, I get the

Whack!

from both sides.

But basically, I'm not interested in what Jews or Arabs were were in the past. The past is good for providing context and understanding, but what I'm worried about is now. And NOW is the time when Israeli bulldozers are destroying Palestinian homes to build these hideous "settlements." How can that be just?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:25 PM

"And what precisely has the Irish government in WW11 got to go with today?"
Bobad and Keith have a "racist" thing about Ireland
The former has accused Ireland of being Antisemitic on numerous occasions, the latter thinks that all Irish children have been "brainwashed to hate Britain"
Bobad, of course, believes everybody who accuses Israel of anything, from massacring refugees to dropping litter, is "a Jew hater"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:30 PM

And what precisely has the Irish government in WW11 got to go with today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:49 AM

Jewish/Irish relations and HOW IT IS BEING FOULED UP BY ISRAEL
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:40 AM

"No surprise there considering the behaviour of the Irish government during WWII."
Staying neutral in a war that need not have happened if the allies hadn't stood by while Hitler was happily turning the Jews into second-rate citizens in preparation for exterminating six million of them seems a laudable enough action to me
The Jewish population of Ireland has nothing but praise for the treatment they receive in Ireland - go look it up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM

Joe, the census I linked to that found little Arab presence in Palestine was from 1695 - the crusades took place in the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries - try to keep coherent.

You say: There was no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived. The Jews legitimately bought the land from the absentee landlords, leaving the Palestinians without homes. I'm having a hard time understanding why Bobad considers that to be justice.

First off, you you say leaving "Palestinians" without homes. FYI at this time the world understood that "Palestinian" meant "Jew", the non Jews were Christians and Arabs.

As for no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived the system was the same as it was for the Jews, why would it have been different? Besides, the land was mostly unused, barren and sparsely populated, it was only once the Jews improved the land and started industries that the influx of Arabs from neighbouring countries began. To somehow attempt to denigrate the Jews for acquiring land by legal means contrasted by how most of the Middle East and North Africa was taken by force from the indigenous population by the Arabs smacks of racism. As a matter of fact the entire tone of this thread is beginning to smack of racism as it usually does with the usual suspects. I will leave you all now to carry on with your Jew bashing - have fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:28 AM

Yesterday the Irish senate debated a bill supporting Irish support for B.D.S.

No surprise there considering the behaviour of the Irish government during WWII.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM

Yesterday the Irish senate debated a bill supporting Irish support for B.D.S.
Netanyahu has summoned the Irish ambassador to protest such a debate
Since when......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM

Didn't have time last night and I'm a bit pushed today, but I was going to go through that document and illustrate what I meant by tendentiously anti-Arab and racist. "Factual errors" is absolutely NOT the issue. If it continues to simmer I'll do it later on today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM

"Rohr Jewish Learning Institute"
A religious organisation founded in 1999 with 117,500 enrolled members
Hardly an unbiased authority with a confirmed reputation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM

"Man, Jim, you really love dem Nazis! "
Since meeting to many of their lookalikes on this thread I've learned to live with 'em Robo
The first time I heard what was happening in Israel compared to what happened under the Nazis was when a Holocaust survive made the comparison back in the 1960s (about twenty five years after she had experienced the real thing first hand)
The last time I heard it from anybody with authority on the subject was while watching the documentary film, 'The Gatekeepers', when an ex director of the Israeli security group, Shin Bet made the comparison      
" 70 AD until the Jews began moving to Israel through the Zionist movement of the 19th century?"
Why on earth are we discussing what happened centuries even millennia ago as part of what is happening in today's Israel?
Maybe when we've finished, perhaps we can go on to discuss whether Native Americans have a greater right to occupy the United States than do the present incumbents !!!
Similarly, comparing the living standards of Arabs living in Israel with that of Egypt or neighbouring countries is somewhat reminiscent of arguments put forward by supporters of slavery who pointed out that plantation slaves lived better lives in bondage than they did "back home in Africa"   
Stupid and inhuman
The land is occupied by Arabs and Jews - that is the situation at the present time and has been for many centuries; to attempt to change that by force is Ethnic Cleansing and that is what is happening in Israel - it is also what is being argued for here
Much of the trouble of the world today is directly traceable back to British rule under the Empire - Israel is a prime example of the mess left behind when Britain departed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM

OK, so Bobad quotes a document titled LAND OWNERSHIP IN PALESTINE, 1880?1948, from the Rohr Jewish Learning Institute. I'm not sure which document Steve is calling "anti-Arab and racist" in tone, but that description certainly fits this document.

Here's a passage from the document that's a pretty good summary of the whole thing. It's more-or-less consistent with my understanding - that the lands were owned by absentee landlords, mostly Ottoman Turks, who left the residents alone as long as they paid reasonably low rents. There was no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived. The Jews legitimately bought the land from the absentee landlords, leaving the Palestinians without homes. I'm having a hard time understanding why Bobad considers that to be justice.
Here's the excerpt:
    When considering Jewish land purchases and settlements, four factors should be borne in mind:
    1. Most of the land purchases involved large tracts belonging to absentee owners. (Virtually all of the Jezreel Valley, for example, belonged in 1897 to only two persons: the eastern portion to the Turkish Sultan, and the western part to the richest banker in Syria, Sursuk 'the Greek.')
    2. Most of the land purchased had not been cultivated previously because it was swampy, rocky, sandy or, for some other reason, regarded as uncultivable. This is supported by the findings of the Peel Commission Report (p. 242): 'The Arab charge that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased . . . there was at the time at least of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land.' (1937)
    3. While, for this reason, the early transactions did not involve unduly large sums of money, the price of land began to rise as Arab landowners took advantage of the growing demand for rural tracts. The resulting infusion of capital into the Palestinian economy had noticeable beneficial effects on the standard of living of all the inhabitants.
    4. The Jewish pioneers introduced new farming methods which improved the soil and crop cultivation and were soon emulated by Arab farmers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 12:54 AM

So, Bobad, can you give us a little history of the presence of Jews in the Levant from the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD until the Jews began moving to Israel through the Zionist movement of the 19th century?

History shows the continuing presence of Muslims in Jerusalem since the Dome of the Rock was built in 691 CE. Otherwise, with whom did the Crusaders do battle?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:42 PM

Sorry, it's you who isn't answering. The challenge is that your source is biased, it has an anti-Arab racist tone and that it tries to conceal the bias with "moderate" language. I read exactly the same kind of "reasonable" language in Iain Smith's illegal constitution for Southern Rhodesia after he'd declared UDI in the 60s. Very carefully-couched tones that made it look so reasonable that whites were given 49% of the land while twenty times as many blacks were given 51%. Needless to say, the whites got the oil and the blacks got the grease. My two uncles kept families of "servants," the main man known as the house boy, in shacks at the edge of their land. Those "chappies" were told that they should be grateful as they were a damn sight better off there than living out in the bush or in any of the neighbouring countries. Now where have I heard that argument before?

I know that you will stick to your guns but it's still worth pointing out to anyone left reading this that they should read your source with eyes wide open, look at its origin and look for unbiased ones as well while they're at it. And I'm not insulting you, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:55 PM

Yup, thought so - you're so effing transparent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM

Why does it have to be "factual errors?" The overall tone is tendentiously anti-Arab and racist. The perspective is the thing, bobad. The Daily Mail is exceptionally careful to avoid anything that can be called "a factual error," yet is still a scurrilous rag. To deny these things is to be disingenuous in the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:46 PM

Not exactly an unbiased source, bobad.

So point any factual errors and we'll examine them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM

Not exactly an unbiased source, bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM

"...and the ADL does its best to perpetuate the myths and misrepresentations..."

True.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM

But Mommie! Billy hit me first!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:24 PM

Something to think about by those so eager to perpetuate the classic anti-Semitic trope that the Jews stole the land of the Palestinians:

Land stolen from Jews in Arab countries equals over 100,000 sq. km: nearly five times the entire size of the state of Israel pre-1967 (22,000 sq. km)


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM

Anti-Defamation League ...an accurate representation of mainstream thought among Jewish Israelis.

And therein lies a good part of the problem, Joe, dunnit? Since a lot of what they believe is simply not true- rather like our own Trumpists-
and the ADL does its best to perpetuate the myths and misrepresentations - rather like our own Fux News and/or Breitbart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:26 PM

Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM

Kinda blows your "Jews legitimately purchased unoccupied territory" all to smithereens, doesn't it?

You're conflating two different things there Joe, but I get why you're doing that and you're not the only one to do it. Also you are putting words in my mouth - just thought I would point that out.

You do know that the Dome of the Rock was built by invading Arab colonizers who displaced the Jews and that it was built on the former Jewish temple that had been destroyed by the Roman colonizers don't you? Or do you believe Abbas' revisionist history when he says that there was never a Jewish presence there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:48 PM

Well, let's get back to something of substance. I wanted to reply to this post from above:

Thread #163483   Message #3901716
Posted By: bobad
25-Jan-18 - 12:52 PM
Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem

The myth of an indigenous "Palestinian" population that had it's land stolen from them by the Jews is simply that - a myth. In fact this CENSUS done by a Dutchman, Hadriani Relandi in 1695 finds virtually no Arab presence whatsoever in Palestine.

The truth of the matter is that the vast, overwhelming majority of Arabs living in Palestine arrived there between 1831 and 1947 brought in by the colonizers. The earlier ones came from Egypt and Sudan after the conquest of the Land of Israel by Egypt?s Mohammed Ali (1831-1840).

Libyan migrants settled in Gedera, south of Tel Aviv. Algerian refugees escaped the French conquest of 1830 and settled in Safed alongside Syrians and Jordanian Bedouins in Tiberias. Circassian refugees, fleeing Russian oppression (1878), and Moslems from Bosnia, Turkmenistan, and Yemen (1908), further diversified the Arab demography west of the Jordan River.

Arab migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman Empire, and then by the British Mandate, to work in major civilian and military infrastructure projects. Legal and illegal Arab migrants were also attracted by economic growth, which was generated by the Jewish community beginning in 1882. They came from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, North Africa, Bosnia, India, Afghanistan, etc. Britain enticed Arab immigration and blocked Jewish immigration.

I am disappointed to find someone like Joe, who professes to being a good Christian, perpetuating this demonizing myth, something which I would expect from some of our other, let's say, ideologically driven members.

For crissake just take a look at this MAP. Virtually all the green except for the Arabian peninsula was taken from the indigenous peoples by force and is maintained as such to this day. That tiny red speck is Israel. Why so many today begrudge a relative handful of people, a people who have been persecuted throughout history, this tiny piece of land for a homeland is beyond my comprehension. I can only attribute it to one thing - hatred.


That's all well and good, Bobad, but this photo (click) shows two very obvious pieces of evidence that contradict what you have to say:Kinda blows your "Jews legitimately purchased unoccupied territory" all to smithereens, doesn't it?

And Bobad, those were real bulldozers that destroyed the homes where Palestinians had lived for generations, so that they could build their fancy Jewish condominium "settlements." That was the paragon of cruelty, and the whole world is outraged by those huge, fancy, military-guarded "settlements." I saw those settlements with my own eyes - they are beautiful, but they are an outrage.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM

Man, Jim, you really love dem Nazis! You can't lay off trying to put the girl in bed with the guy who raped her!
Even Hollywood is gettin' tired of this kind of harrassment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM

I know exactly what you mean Joe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM

[Sigh]


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM

"Jim, let me say this again: I am not disagreeing with you."
So what Joe?
These countries are historically impoverished states - Israel is wealthy and powerful
You compare the position of people living within a state, not to those living elsewhere
Go read the Inequality Report and you'll find it's not just about living conditions, it's how people are teated, what rghts they have, their security, the say they have in their lives and the right to be treated as human beings.... and many more things
This area has been home to Arabs for thousands of years and now they live with the risk of being driven out of it to make room for people of a different culture - ethnically cleansed.
Even the Nazis were able to produce films showing how well-off Jews were in the concentration camps
You really do need to get your head around what is happening in Israel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM

And yet, in the cities of Israel and Palestine, living conditions for the common people seem to be far better than what I saw in Egypt. I do not know about village life in Palestine, and life in the refugee camps. I suspect that life in the camps in Palestine is similar to what I saw in the slums of Cairo and in the "City of the Dead" cemeteries that tens of thousands call home in Cairo.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM

Fine, then leave the "propaganda" bit out of the conversation Joe - it confuses things
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM

Jim says: How dare you accuse half the world, in cluding groups like Amnesty, Human Rihghts Watch, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Robert Fisk.... et al, of peddling "propaganda. You really have chosen your side, havent you

Jim, let me say this again: I am not disagreeing with you.

I don't know of Robert Fisk, but all the others you list are agencies that I consider to be very credible sources of information.

I do not deny the plight of Palestinians, but I have trying to study and understand what is happening in Israel in a rational manner, devoid of posturing and propaganda. If we stay on the stage of yelling and accusations and do not study the situation deeply, all we will have in the end is yelling and accusations - and no progress.

The agencies you list HAVE studied the situation in a dispassionate, objective manner. Many of them have accomplished great things.

But how much do WE understand of what they have learned. How can I blend what they have to say with my valid personal experience, and make sense of things?

From what I could see, it seems that living conditions for Arabs in Israel, are similar to those of Mexicans living here in California. There are a few who have become very successful, but most are working-class people. Many are gardeners and dishwashers, or work in similar jobs. They do not have the access to education that Jewish Israelis have. But generally, they have adequate food and housing and other essentials.

My personal observations make me suspect that there are many Jewish people in Israel, mostly recent immigrants, who live in similar conditions. The difference is that these immigrants can assimilate and succeed, and the Arabs who have lived in Palestine for generations do not have that hope.

For Arabs in Palestine, the situation is more like life for lower-class Mexicans in Mexico - most seem to be living on the brink of poverty, with no hope of getting out. Back in 1999, I heard one Israeli speak of Palestinians as "always wanting something for nothing." It reminded me of how some Americans talk of welfare recipients - blaming people for their poverty, with no sympathy or understanding for the hopeless conditions these people live in.

A few messages above, Steve posted a lengthy excerpt from Wikipedia about conditions for Arabs in Israel. It seems to be quite accurate and objective, and it's worthy of consideration.

But back to the Anti-Defamation League - I think they give an accurate representation of mainstream thought among Jewish Israelis. They express what Jewish Israelis believe, whether or not those beliefs are correct.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM

"There are no illegal settlements "
Course there aren't Bobad - what doi those ex-Knesset or United nations, or Human Rights members know about **** ***
Why trust them when we have our own expert who knows so much that he blames the Jewish People for every crime committed by the the Israeli regime
Keep up the good work
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:11 AM

Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:02 AM

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which Jewish property was confiscated and retitled, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:50 AM

This interesting letter from this morning's Irish Times seems to put things in a nutshell
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
Sir, -
We, concerned citizens of Israel, are writing to you re?garding the Control of Econom?ic Activity (Occupied Territo?ries) Bill 2018, which was brought to our attention and which is due to be debated in Seaanad Eireann on January 30th.(Irish Senate)
We urge Ireland to support any legislation that will help en?force differentiation between Israel per se and the settlements in the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusa?lem.
The Israeli occupation of the territories beyond the 1967 bor?ders, ongoing for more than 50 years with no end in sight, is not only unjust but also stands in vi?olation of numerous UN resolu?tions. UN Security Council Res?olution 2334 of December 23rd, 2016, adopted 14:1 by the Security Council (the US ab?stained), calls for the interna?tional community to differenti?ate between its relations with Is?rael per se within its 1967 bor?ders and its dealings with the Is?raeli settlements in the occu?pied territories.
We are convinced that Isra?el's ongoing occupation of the Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is morally and strategically unsus?tainable, is detrimental to peace, and poses a threat to the security of Israel itself.
It has been enabled by the le?niency of the international com?munity, whose rhetoric regard?ing the dire situation in Pales?tine has not been matched by ap?propriate action.
While Ireland, along with the rest of the EU, considers the oc?cupation illegal, it continues to economically sustain it by trad?ing with illegal Israeli settle?ments established in clear and direct violation of international law. The occupation has been correctly identified by succes?sive Irish governments as a ma?jor obstacle to peace, which we believe remains attainable should we see the termination of the occupation and the reali?sation of the two-state para?digm that would lead to the emergence of a sovereign State of Palestine alongside Israel.
It is clear to us that genuine reconciliation between Israel and Palestine, Israelis and Pal?estinians, is possible only if the paradigm of two separate and independent states prevails.
As people who care deeply for Israel's future and long for our country to live in peace with its neighbours, we urge you to
support the aforementioned Bill.-Yours, etc,

URIAVNERY, Former member of Knesset, Sheli Party;
Prof ELIE BARNAVI, Former ambassador to France;
ILAN BARUCH, former ambassador to South Africa, Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe;
MICHAEL BEN-YAIR, Former attorney-general of Israel; former acting supreme court justice;
ROMAN BRONFMAN, Former member of Knesset, Meretz Party;
AVRAHAM AVRUM BURG, Former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, Former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel;
Prof NAOMI CHAZAN, former member of Knesset, Meretz Party, former president, New Israel Fund;
YAEL DAYAN, former member of Knesset, Labor Party, former deputy mayor of Tel Aviv;
Prof ITZHAK GALNOOR, former head of the Israeli Civil Service Commission, professor emeritus at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem;
ERELA HADAR, former ambassador to the Czech Republic;
Prof DAVID HAREL, vice-president, Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, computer scientist, Israel Prize recipient (2004) and EMET Prize laureate (2010);
DANIKARAVAN, Sculptor, Israel Prize recipient (1977);
MIKIKRATSMAN, Artist, EMET Prize laureate (2011);
ALEXLEVAC, photojournalist, Israel Prize recipient (2005);
Dr ALONLIEL, former director general of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, former ambassador to South Africa and Turkey; Prof YEHUDA JUDDNE'EMAN, Filmmaker, Israel Prize recipient (2009);
TZALIRESHEF, former member of Knesset, Labor Party;
Prof ZEEV STERNHELL, Political scientist, Israel Prize recipient (2008);
DAVID TARTAKOVER, Designer, Israel Prize recipient (2002).


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:24 AM

The Inequality Report certainly gives the lie to the notion that the Israeli regime is striving for greater equality and an end to discrimination, and they seem to have done little to fight prejudicial views among Jewish citizens. The report is without hype and drama and deals largely with unarguable statistics. It makes for uncomfortable reading. Inequalities arise in every country and the US and UK have absolutely nothing to brag about in this regard. But this report shows that much of the inequality in Israel arises from discriminatory practices which are largely deliberate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM

By the way, do you believe the Pope to be an Antisemite?
That was one link you've ignored to date
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:02 AM

"I also prefer to rely on rational, dispassionate sources and to stay away from propaganda."
You have been given no propaganda Joe - unless you regard press reports of actual events as such
You have put forward a great deal yourself
Refusing to respond to such information is as "irrational as it gets.
Once you take an interest in Israel the facts speak for themselves
How dare you accuse half the world, in cluding groups like Amnesty, Human Rihghts Watch, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Robert Fisk.... et al, of peddling "propaganda
You really have chosen your side, havent you
I see there was little point in posting The Inequality Report, but as with Keith, Bobad and Bearded Bruce, it wasn't aimed at closed minds.
Respond to what has been posted or stand disgraced as someone who just doesn't want to lnow
Lies or facts - make up your mind
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM

"So - my question is: how can the Jewish Israelis maintain their own security in a way that does not oppress non-Jews?"

I don't want to be giving glib or clever-clogs answers, Joe, but the best way of achieving that security would be to stop oppressing non-Jews in Israel, to unblock Gaza and to jaw-jaw first with the neighbouring states before going into attack mode. There's an awful lot of unresolved chicken-and-egg about conflicts in that region. Jim may not like that, but I don't see too many innocents in the mix. Israel has the prosperity, the allies and the influence to make far more positive moves than it has done towards solutions. And those allies could be a damn sight more critical whilst still remaining allies. That lack of REAL criticism, along with the lack of conditionality in their dealings with Israel, is a massive part of the problem. It simply feeds the hubris of the regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you, Jim. That's why I can't figure out why you're getting so upset about what I've posted. I am, however, trying to flesh things out by adding my photos and personal observations.

I also prefer to rely on rational, dispassionate sources and to stay away from propaganda.

But since you've been so irrational, I haven't been responding to you.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:00 AM

"disreputable" or whatever other names Jim Carroll called it."
Instead of referring to "what I called it" inderectly Joe, why not trying to address the points I made head-on; they are either accurate or wrong, simple as that, but they are specific - a million miles from your own amorphous defence of Israel
Try again; why not read this through and see if it rings any bells.
INEQUALITY REPORT
Once again I find it necessary to make my own attitude to Israel clear
All my life I have been brought up to respect the idea of a Jewish State
My father went to Spain when his family realised from information being passed on to them from Jewish refugees living in close to where they lived in Liverpool
Politically, members of my family associated with Jewish activists and were part of the anti-Fascist demonstrations ahet took place in the thirties - my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone that hit Mosly at one of his street meetings (a good Catholic lady who told the arresting officer "that stone was guided by the hand of God")
My father's brother was a regular soldier and was present at the opening of one of the concentration camps - a traumatic experience
He later went on to serve in British Palestine and was among the last to leave when the British handed over power - he described hearing the gunfire and explosions as Arabs here cleared out of their homes to make room for the new settlers.
I first became aware of what was happening in Israel from Jewish friends in Manchester, mainly left-wing, who had become increasingly disturbed at the behaviour of the Jewish administration towards the Arab population
After a visit to the film, Shoah, my girl-friends mother, a Holocaust survivor, exploded in anger one night and called them "a bunch of ****** fascists" - it led to the break-up in my relationship with her daughter - I was iunable to get my head around the concept of a Jewish fascist, knowing what I knew about their experience in the camps.
The mother once spoke to me at length about their experiences and left me with a saying that has influenced my life ever since "Never again - not to anybody"
THat has had a major influence on my attitude to what is happening - in the world, not just Israel, ever since
So when the scumbags fling around their accusations of antisemitism and refuse to debate honestly, (as you are doing here), it acts as confirmation of what I believe I have learned from people who know better
Jim Carroll


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