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Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy

DigiTrad:
ROCKY MOUNTAIN
WHAUR ARE YE GAUN, MY BONNIE WEE LASS?
YON HIGH HIGH HILL


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: How old are you my pretty little miss? (27)
Lyr Req: Sixteen Come Next Sunday (Bothy Band) (21)
Tune Req: How old are you my pretty little miss (9)
Lyr Req: Seventeen Come Sunday (11)
Lyr Req: The Night Visit (Christy Moore) (7)
Lyr Req: My Pretty Fair Maid (15)
Lith a doodle, As I Rode Out ? (16)
Lyr Req: Sixteen Come Next Sunday (7)


Richie 10 Jan 18 - 06:06 PM
Tradsinger 10 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM
Richie 10 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM
Richie 10 Jan 18 - 07:58 PM
Richie 10 Jan 18 - 08:04 PM
Richie 10 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM
Richie 10 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM
Richie 10 Jan 18 - 10:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM
Richie 11 Jan 18 - 04:41 PM
Richie 12 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM
Richie 12 Jan 18 - 04:15 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jan 18 - 05:16 PM
Lighter 12 Jan 18 - 09:54 PM
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Lighter 14 Jan 18 - 10:47 AM
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Subject: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:06 PM

Hi,

I wanted to share a study of Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy with you and welcome your contributions. Steve Gardham is helping with this thread.

Right now we're lost somewhere in Scotland. We're looking at versions of "Waukrife Mammy" (Wakeful Mother) which had been collected, recreated by Robert Burns about 1788.

One phrase "clod that winna (will not) cling" is found in a 1795 chapbook and also Cromek, Cunningham. Here is the stanza:

Blink o'er the burn, my bonny lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
For you've got the clod that will not cling,
In spite of your waulkrif mammie.

Several versions have "clod that winna cling" -- what is a literal translation?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Tradsinger
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM

There are 4 versions on Glostrad.com


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM

Hi,

From: The Poetical Works of Robert Burns: Reprinted from the Best Editions comes this song

A WAUKRIFE MINNIE. [A wakeful mother]

I PICKED up this old song and tune from a country girl in Nithsdale. I never met with it elsewhere in Scotland:

Whare are you gaun, my bonnie lass?
Whare are you gaun, my hinnie?
She answered me right saucilie?
An errand for my minnie.

O, whare live ye, my bonnie lass?
O, where live ye, my hinnie?
By yon burn-side, gin ye maun ken,
In a wee house wi' my minnie.

But I foor up the glen at e'en,
To see my bonnie lassie;
And lang before the grey morn cam'
She was na hauf sae saucie.

O, weary fa the waukrife cock,
And the foumart lay his crawin'!
He waukened the auld wife frae her sleep,
A wee blink or the dawin.

An angry wife I wat she raise,
And o'er the bed she brought her;
And with a mickle hazel rung
She made her a weel-payed dochter.

O, fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,
O, fare thee weel, my hinnie :
Thou art a gay and a bonnie lass,
But thou hast a waukrife minnie.

* * * *

The identity of the "country girl" is revealed in Cromek's 'Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song,' 1810, which has a song "Oh who is this under my window'. The first half of the headnote is:

This old song is taken down from the singing of Martha Crosbie, from whose recitation Burns wrote down the song of "The Waukrife Minnie."

Martha Crosbie also entertained young Alan Cunningham at his father's house. Although Cunningham does not mention her as Burns' source, he says in 1925, "I have heard it often sung in my youth, and sung with curious and numerous variations." Cunningham adds "I believe it to be a very old song." He adds two stanzas.

Thomas Lyle says in 1827, ". . .considering how very common the Ballad has been over the shires of Ayr and Renfrew, both before and since the Poet's day; so common, indeed, is it still, that we have had some demurings about inserting it here at all."

Lyle's 1827 version was advertised as "Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works" and was printed in a c.1830 Scottish chapbook in Falkirk.

The identifying stanza "How old are you--" is missing in these versions but is included a 1795 Edinburgh print.

If anyone has access to or knows any early "Waukrife" versions, please post them.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:58 PM

Hi,

TY. Tradsinger (Gwilym) for providing the site for those four versions of "Seventeen Come Sunday" -- it's a very fine and excellent site.

Before we get to Seventeen Come Sunday (our master title) I'd like to look at these early Scottish (possibly English) which date, according to Thomas Lyle, to the 1750s (before Burns time, he was born, I believe, in 1759).

The Burns' version, which according to Cunningham was from tradition and his pen is dated circa 1788.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 08:04 PM

Hi,

In the 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works" Thomas Lyle wrote the following and supplied a version which dates earlier to the mid-1700s:

The "Wakerife mammy," is here noted down with some trifling corrections, from the west country set of the Ballad, where its day of popularity amongst the peasantry, was equal, at least, with that of the foregoing one. Burns says that he picked up a version of it from a country girl's singing in Nithsdale, and that he never either met with the song or the air to which it is sung elsewhere in Scotland. We marvel not a little at this, after considering how very common the Ballad has been over the shires of Ayr and Renfrew, both before and since the Poet's day; so common, indeed, is it still, that we have had some demurings about inserting it here at all. The air is a very pretty one, with two lines of a nonsensical chorus, sung after each stanza, which certainly merits other verses to be adapted for it, when like many other wanderers of the day, it then might again be received into favour. Burns's copy, in Johnston's Museum, differs a good deal from the foregoing one, besides wanting the commencing stanza. Cunningham's set of words in the second volume of his " Songs of Scotland," is equally faulty.

THE WAKERIFE MAMMY.

As I gaed o'er the Highland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
Wha' look'd at me, and I at her,
And O but she was saucy.

Whare are ye gaun, my bonnie lass,
Whare are ye gaun, my lammy;
Right saucily she answer'd me,
An errand to my mammy.

An' whare live ye, my bonnie lass,
Whare do ye won, my lammy;
Right modestly she answer'd me,
In a wee cot wi' my mammy.

Will ye tak' me to your wee house,
I'm far frae hame, my lammy;
Wi' a leer o' her eye, she answer'd me,
   I darna for my mammy.

But I fore up the glen at e'en,
To see this bonnie lassie;
And lang before the gray morn cam',
She wasna' half sae saucie.

O weary fa' the wakerife cock,
An' the fumart lay his crawing;
He wauken'd the auld wife frae her rest,
A wee blink or the dawing.

Wha straught began to blaw the coal,
To see gif she could ken me;
But I crap out from whare I lay,
And took the fields to skreen me.

She took her by the hair o' the head,
As frae the spence she brought her,
An' wi' a gude green hazel wand,
   She's made her a weel paid dochter.

Now fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,
An fare thee weel, my lammy,
Tho' thou has a gay, an' a weel-far't face,
Yet thou has a wakerife mammy.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM

Hi,

Avery similar version of "Waukrife Mammy" was printed in Falkirk about 1830 (the site says 1840 but I have other info). It may be viewed online here:

http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/rbc/id/2273/rec/2

The title of the chapbook is "Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM

Hi,

The earliest extant appearance of the identifying stanza in print is found in this 1795 version that probably was printed in Edinburgh (two sources have: Edinburgh?) It sent to me by Steve Gardham. The Scottish dialect has been tempered and there's a second chorus for the last stanza which may have been used throughout. Cf. Crawfurd's 1825 version of 10 stanzas.

The lass is fourteen but will be fifteen on Sunday. It appears in "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced."

The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie.

As I went o'er the Highland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me, and I at her,
And vow[1] but she was saucy.
To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c

Where are you going, my bonny lass?
Where are you going, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
An errand for my mammie.
To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c

What is your age, my bonny lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I'm fifteen years come Sunday.
To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c[2]

Will you take a man, my bonny lass?
Will you take a man, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I dare not for my mammie.

Where do you live, my bonnie lass?
Where do you live, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
In a wie[wee] house wi' my mammie.

I went into my love's chamber,
To see if she was wauking,
But we had not spoke a word or to [two]
Till her mother heard us talking.

Then she began to blaw the coal,
To see if she could ken me;
But I creeped out at the bed-foot,
And took the fields to screen me.

Then she took her by the hair of the head,
And to the floor she brought her,
And with a good green hazel rung,
She made her a well paid daughter.

O haul your hand, mother she says
You're like for to devour me;
For I would never have done the like,
If you had not done't[3] before me.

Blink o'er the burn, my bonny lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
For you've got the clod that will not cling,
In spite of your waulkrif mammie.

So fare thee well, my bonnie lass,
So fare thee well, my honey,
For I would come and see you again,
Weren't for your wakerif mammy.
   With my rou tou fal dam dail,
   All, all de to my tou.

1. wow (possibly an affectated "v" comic style)
2. Chorus throughout
3. dont't

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:48 PM

Hi,

This is a translation of Burns:

A Wakeful Mother- Collected by Burns from Martha Crosbie, a carder and spinner of wool, circa 1788.

"Where are you going, my bonnie lass?
Where are you going, my honey?'
She answered me right saucily: -
"An errand for my mother!"

"O, where live you, my bonnie lass?
O, where live you, my honey?"
"By yon stream side, if you must know,
In a little house with my mother."

But I went up the glen at evening
To see my bonnie lassie,
And long before the grey morn came
She was not half so saucy.

O, woe befall the wakeful cock,
And the polecat stop his crowing!
He awakened the old woman from her sleep
A little bit before the dawning.

An angry wife I know she rose,
And out of the bed she brought her,
And with a big hazel switch
She made her a well-punished daughter.

'O, fare-thee-well, my bonnie lass!
O, fare-thee-well, my honey!
You are a gay and a bonnie lass,
But you have a wakeful mother!'

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM

Tommy Dempsey, the Birmingham/Irish folksinger used ( and I'm sure still does) a great version of this song.

also its in that classical suite of Vaughan Williams
(from Wikipedia)
Written in 1923, the English Folk Song Suite is one of English composer Ralph Vaughan Williams's most famous works for military band. It was published originally as simply Folk Song Suite. Its premiere was given at Kneller Hall on 4 July 1923, conducted by Lt Hector Adkins.[1]

In 1924, the piece was arranged for full orchestra by Vaughan Williams' student Gordon Jacob, with the word "English" at the beginning of the title. Frank Wright produced a version for an English-style brass band; it was copyrighted in 1956.

Contents [hide]
1        Structure
1.1        March: Seventeen Come Sunday
1.2        Intermezzo: My Bonny Boy
1.3        March: Folk Songs from Somerset
2        Instrumentation
2.1        Original Concert Band Version
2.2        2008 Revised Concert Band Version
2.3        Orchestra Version


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:41 PM

Hi,

TY for the info about Tommy Dempsey's version. I'm sure that will be part of the study later. Percy Grainger, a friend of my grandparents, also did an arrangement in 1912.

You quoted Wiki's entry for Seventeen come Sunday which states, "The words were first published between 1838 and 1845."

So far in the first days of our study we have 6 Scottish versions earlier that 1838 and we haven't even discussed the "Lady and the Soldier" versions:

A. Waukrife Mammy;
   a. "Wakerife Mammy," dated c.1750 from Thomas Lyle's 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works."
   b. "Waukrife Minnie" taken by Robert Burns from Martha Crosbie of Nithdale circa 1788.
   c. "The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie" dated 1795 (Edinburgh?) published in "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced."
   d. "Waukrife Minnie," published 1825 but older; two stanzas given by Alan Cunningham, supposedly from tradition in "The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern" Volume 2, p. 244-245.
   e. "The Well Pay't Dochter,"- from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs: edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975.
   f. "The Waukrife Mammy" dated 1830 from a Scottish Chapbook (no publisher given) Printed for the booksellers; Falkirk. Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy; http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/rbc/id/2273/rec/2
   g. "My Rolling Eye" dated c. 1850. Taken from Alexander Smith of Perthshire by Robert Ford. Published in Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland: With Many Old and Familiar Melodies edited by Robert Ford, 1899.

The first five all pre-date the early date of 1838. Hopefully we'll find more, I'll post some of the other early versions soon,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM

Hi,

This last version (see also Crawfurd) of "Waukrife Mammy" is titled after the chorus. It's dated about 1850. From "Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland; With Many Old and Familiar Melodies" edited by Robert Ford, 1899. Notice that the lassie's lover is a soldier (sodger)-- an important detail found in many later versions. Here's the text-- Ford's notes follow:

MY ROLLING EYE. [c.1850]

As I gaed up yon Hieland hill,
   I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked at me and I at her,
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS With my rolling eye,
Fal the diddle eye,
Rolling eye, dum derry,
With my rolling eye.

"Where are you going, my bonnie lass?
Where are you going, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"An errand to my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Where do you live, my bonnie lass?
Where do you won, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"In a wee house wi' my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"What is your name, my bonnie lass?
What is your name, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"My name is Bonnie Annie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"How old are you, my bonnie lass?
How old are you, my lammie?"
Rightly modestly she answered me?
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Where do you sleep, my bonnie lass?
Where do you sleep, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"In a wee bed near my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"If I should come to your board-end
When the moon is shining clearly,
Will you rise and let me in
That the auld wife mayna hear me?"

With my rolling eye, etc.

"If you will come to my bower door
When the moon is shining clearly,
I will rise and lat you in,
And the auld wife winna hear ye."

With my rolling eye, etc.

When I gaed up to her bower door,
   I found my lassie wauken,
But lang before the grey morn cam',
The auld wife heard us talkin'

With my rolling eye, etc.

It's weary fa' the waukrife cock
May the foumart lay his crawing,
He wauken'd the auld wife frae her sleep,
A wee blink ere the dawing.

With my rolling eye, etc.

She gaed to the fire to blaw the coal,
To see if she would ken me,
But I dang the auld runt in the fire,
And bade my heels defend me.

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Oh, sodger, you maun marry me,
And now's the time or never;
Oh, sodger, you maun marry me,
Or I am done for ever."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Blink ower the burn, my bonnie lass,
Blink ower the burn, my lammie,
Ye are a sweet and kindly queen,
For a' yer waukrife minnie."

With my rolling eye,
Fal the diddle eye,
Rolling eye, dum derry,
With my rolling eye.

There are many people living who vividly remember an odd character known as "Rolling Eye " or "Singing Sandy," who from forty to fifty years ago regularly visited the villages of Perthshire and Fifeshire in the capacity of an itinerant musician, and sang only this song. It was customary for Sandy (his real name, I believe, was Alexander Smith, and he hailed originally from Freuchie) in the summer months to have his hat profusely adorned with gay-coloured ribbons and natural flowers. His antics, too, when singing were particularly lively and attractive, and a tremendous slap on the thigh with his hand always, as he started the chorus, was the signal for those standing about to join in. Wherever he went he was followed by a crowd of delighted children, for whose attachment he had the utmost esteem.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:15 PM

Hi,

If anyone has a version of "Waukrife Mammy" that we missed, please post it or any information about it.

The second form of "Seventeen Come Sunday" which dates to the late 1700s and early 1800s is usually titled, "Lady and Soldier" or "Maid and Soldier." These revisions pre-date the popular "Seventeen Come Sunday" titles of the mid-1800s.

The earliest extant date, circa 1800, was a chapbook printed by J. Morren (Edinburgh) "Three Songs:
LODGINGS for Single GENTLEMEN,
Young Man's Frolic,
The Lady and Soldier.

Here is the text:

The Lady and Soldier.

1. AS I did walk along the street,
I was my father's darling,
There I spied a pretty maid,
Just as the sun was rising.
      With my rulal, la.

2. Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answer?d me right modestly,
Of an errand for my mammy.

3. Will you marry me, my bonny lass?
Will you marry me, my honey?
With all my heart kind sir, said she,
But dare not for my mammy.

4. Come ye but to my father's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
And I will rise and let you in,
And my mammy she won't hear me.

5. I have a wife, she is my own,
And how can I disdain her.
And every town that I go through,
A girl if I can find her.

6. I?ll go to-bed quite late at night,
Rise early the next morning,
The buglehorn is my delight,
And the hautboy [oboe] is my darling.

7. Of sketches I have got enough,
And money in my pocket,
And what care I for any one,
It's of the girls I've got it.
    With my rulal, la.

FINIS

This version is missing stanzas, the "How old are you" stanza and also stanzas after 4 but shows the modern form (no wakeful mother), albeit a confused story line. Memorable is the line:

And the hautboy [oboe] is my darling.

Also unusual is the use of the word "sketches" in the last stanza which appears to be slang for "plans" but its use is sketchy. Anyone?

An affinity to Trooper and the Maid appears:

Come ye but to my father's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,


They are different songs and this seems to be the only common text. The "moon shines bright and clearly" appears in both suggesting the possibility of an unknown association or common ancestry. This text persists in many "Seventeen Come Sunday" versions. I'm not suggesting that the two songs are the same and suggestions that they are have caused confusion. The "soldier" seems to have been added to the "Seventeen Come Sunday" text in the 1800s. At least the early Scottish versions do have the soldier stanza. This version is missing the soldier stanza.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

Considering the subject matter of the ballad it's possible 'hautboy' is here a sexual cliche.

I know in our emails I started to move away from 'coins' to 'plans' but looking again I can't help thinking 'sketches' is something more physical. He has got money from the girls so what else could he be bragging about?

BTW I've checked the Oxford Dictionary and though it has lots of definitions one of which is 'plans' none seem to fit easily here. I still think it's a cant term but Googling doesn't bring it up.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:16 PM

Firstly a disclaimer. I don't wish to add confusion to your studies. I am certainly no expert on this or any other folk song.

1) I see no mention of the gob music/as she landed addition to the song that I have often heard added to Irish version

2) I think many singers have been influenced by the vaiant of this that Christy Moore sings - I don't know the precise sources for Christy's version.

apologies in advance if i am talking shite.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:54 PM

I see no compelling reason to doubt that "hautboy" means "hautboy," a standard instrument in military "bands of music."

No suggestion comes to mind for "sketches."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

Steve-- eventually we might find what "sketches" means -- and it does seem like a physical object.

Big Al-- Christy Moore's arrangement, which has some confused text, is not the right song- it's an Irish version of Trooper and the Maid. I'm not exactly sure what 1) your first question is. Perhaps you can explain again. These are the "Seventeen Come Sunday" songs and have the questions "Will you take a man" "How old are you" "Where do you live" and usually start with "Where are you going."

TY for contributing,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:36 AM

Hi Lighter,

Since the previous line "The buglehorn is my delight," is about a musical instrument, "hautboy" would logically be an oboe instead of something else.

The fact that it is his "darling" gives me some concern :) What about his wife and sixteen year old girlfriend?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:14 AM

Hi,

The new form of "Waukrife Mammy" (given above) now called "Lady and the Soldier," or "Maid and Soldier" and later "Soldier and the Fair Maid" appears to be a broadside writer's attempt to sanitize "Waukrife Mammy." Gone is the wakeful mother and bedroom scene. The ballad has incorporated bits from Trooper and the Maid-- a similar title, the introduction of the "soldier" as her lover, and the "moon shines bright and clearly" text.

The Morren print of 1800 (our earliest known extant version) is not the earliest. It's incomplete and missing the soldier stanza. We do not know what version it was taken from but that earlier version (from the late 1700s) had the soldier stanza in it. Here's a full version from c. 1820:

"Maid and Soldier" printed in London at 115 Long Alley by Thomas Batchelar about 1820 is a longer version than "Lady and the Soldier" with a slight variation of the chorus:

Maid and Soldier

1. As I did walk along the street,
I was my father's darling,
A pretty maid there I did meet
Just as the sun was rising.
      With my row de dow.

2. Her shoes were black her stocking white,
The buckles were of silver,
She had a black and rolling eye,
Her hair hung down her shoulders.

3. Where are you going my pretty maid
Where are you going my honey ?
She answer'd me right cheerfully,
Of an errand for my mammy.

4. How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answer'd me right cheerfully:
"I'm seventeen come Sunday."

5. Will you marry me, my pretty maid?
Will you marry me, my honey?
With all my heart, kind sir, she said ,
But dare not for my mammy.

6. Come you but to my mammy's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I will rise and let you in,
My mammy shall not hear me.

7. Oh! soldier, will you marry me?
Now is your time or never,
And if you do not marry me,
I am undone forever.

8. I have a wife and she is my own,
How can I disdain her,
And every town that I go thro',
A girl if I can find her.

9. I?ll go to bed quite late at night,
Rise early the next morning,
The buglehorn is my delight,
And the oboy [oboe] is my darling.

10. Of sketches I have got enough.
And money in my pocket,
And what care I for any one,
It's of the girls I've got it.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:28 AM

Hi,

If you look back at Ford's version (see above) of Waulkrife Mammy taken from Scotland about 1850 you can see text from the "Maid and Soldier" revisions of the early 1800s.

The soldier (sodger) appears as well as the "moon shines" stanza. The "black and rolling eye" is now found in the chorus as "rolling eye." Ford's version as well as some versions collected by Greig-Duncan in Aberdeenshire in the early 1900s (which date back to the 1800s) show that "Waulrife Mammy" had added text from "Maid and Soldier."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 10:47 AM

The English Dialect Dictionary (ca1900) defines "sketch" as a Co. Antrim term for "knack."

This meaning seems to fit the sense of the song (the singer does have a "knack" for getting next to young women), but it seems to have had a very limited distribution.

Lacking further evidence, I'd suggest it only as the best of various poor choices.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM

I wonder if that could be extended to nicknacks, meaning favours, baubles, presents (from the girls). It is widely attested that the young ladies of all classes favoured the soldiers in their scarlet uniforms. (Far from the Madding Crowd) There is still a strong link to the money in the next line which suggests that it is a physical thing like the money. The best bet would probably be finding it in another ballad. I don't have a specific collection of cant songs but I do have some somewhere in other books.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

A 4th form (a revision of Maid and Soldier/Soldier and the Fair Maid) was crafted by a broadside writer around 1840. This is the standard form with the "Seventeen Come Sunday" title and a "happy" ending. There are several endings, not all happy, that mirror the Maid and Soldier. Here's the text ( from J. Paul and Co., Printers, 2 & 3, Monmouth Court, Seven Dials, 1838-1845):

SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY. (standard broadside text)

As I walked out one May morning,
One May morning so early'
I overtook a handsome maid,
Just as the sun was rising,
With my ru, rum, ra.

Her stockings white, her shoes were bright,
Her buckles shined like silver,
She had a black and a rolling eye,
And her hair hung over her shoulder.

Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
An errand for my mammy.

How old are you my pretty maid,
How old are you my honey,
She answered me right modestly,
I'm seventeen come Sunday.

Will you take a man my pretty maid,
Will you take a man my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
I dare not for my mammy.

If you will come to my mammy's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I'll come down and let you in,
My mammy shall not hear you.

I went down to her mammy's house,
When the moon so bright was shining,
She came down and let me in,
And I lay in her arms till morning.

Soldier will you marry me?
For now is your time or never,
For if you do not marry me,
I am undone for ever.

Now I am with my soldier lad,
Where the wars they are alarming,
A drum and fife are my delight,
And a pint of rum in the morning.

Most of the traditional English versions from the late 1800s and early 1900s adhere to this broadside text.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:09 PM

Steve, I wouldn't expect "sketch" to have been extended to knicknacks in any significant way, because the basic sense," knack," seems to have had such limited currency. That would make a "knicknack" sense rarer still.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM

sketch > knack > skill maybe? "Of skills I have got enough"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 11:07 PM

Hi,

Thought I'd begin posting a few older traditional versions. This is a composite mostly of "Maid and Soldier," the second form. The opening stanza is definitely "Waukrife Mammy." Compare to stanza from "My Rolling Eye" (Ford, c. 1850).

The Soldier Lad - sung by William Watson, New Byth, Aberdeenshire; collected by Gavin Grieg about 1907.

1. As I went up high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me, and I at her,
And oh she was so saucy.

2. Where are ye gaun, my pretty lass,
Where are ye gaun, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
An eeran [errand] to my mammy.

3. "Wad ye tak' a man my bonnie lass,
"Wad ye tak' a man my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
I daurna [dare not] for my mammy.

4. "Where do ye dwell, my bonnie lass,
"Where do ye dwell, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
"In a wee hoose by my mammy."

5. What is your name my bonnie lass
What is your name my honey
Right modestly she answered me,
"They ca' me Bonny Annie."

6. "I'll come up to your chamber at night
When the moon is shining clearly,
An' ye will rise an' let me in
An' the auld wife winna hear me."

7. She up to your chamber at nicht
When the moon is shining clearly,
And she did rise an' let me in
And the auld wife didna hear them.

8. When he had lain wi' her a' nicht
And pairt o' the next mornin'
An' up he rose, put on his clothes
"I must away my darlin'."

9. "Now, sodger, you maun mairry me,
For noo's the time or never;
Noo, sodger, you maun mairry me,
Or thance I'm done for ever."

10. I have a wife in my own country
And why should I abuse her?
I have a sweetheart in every toon
An' a girlie when I choose her.

11. The soldier's lad is my delight,
The "white bob" is my darlin',
The grenadiers deserve a cheer,
For they march twice ere mormin'.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:04 AM

Hi,

The following short version is one of the oldest traditional versions in the US which I've dated c.1840. From Cox, Folk Songs of the South, 1925:

"Seventeen Come Sunday." Contributed by Miss Bessie Bock, Farmington, Marion County; learned from her grandmother, a lady of Scotch-Irish descent, who learned it when a little girl and who would be eighty years old if now living.

1 "O where are you going, my pretty maid?
O where are you going, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"An errand for my mommie."

2 "How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"I'm seventeen come Sunday."

3 "0 where do you live, my pretty maid?
O where do you live, my honey?"
She answered me so modestly,
"In a wee, wee cot with my mommie."

4 "Will you marry me, my pretty maid?
Will you marry me, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"If it weren't for my mommie."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:33 AM

Hi,

This broadside of which there are at least two extant different printings is a 3rd specific form which is similar to the Seventeen Come Sunday Broadsides and perhaps predates them (I've dated them 1830s). It has a different ending and is missing one line (in brackets). It's an intermediate version between "Maid and Soldier" and "Seventeen Come Sunday". Soldier and the Fair Maid was mentioned in Cox's (Folk Songs of the South) notes (see last post).

Soldier and the Fair Maid. (broadside text; Yorkshire, later, Dickinson of York, dated late 1830s)

As I walked out one May morning,
Just as the day was dawning,
There I espied a pretty fair maid,
Just as the sun was rising,
    With my row, dow, dow.

Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
An errand for my mammy.

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
[Her buckles shined like silver,]
She had a black and rolling eye,
And her hair hung over her shoulder.

Will you marry me, my pretty fair maid,
Will you marry me, my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
I dare not for my mammy.

How old are you my pretty fair maid,
How old are you my honey,
She answered me right cheerfully,
I am seventeen come Sunday.

Will you come to my mammy's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I'll come down and let you in,
And my mammy shall not hear me.

I went down to her mammy's house,
When the moon shone bright and clearly,
And she came down and let me in,
And her mammy never heard me.

Come soldier will you marry me?
For now is your time or never,
For if you will not marry me,
I am undone for ever.

No lassie I will not marry,
For all thy father's treasure,
For every town I pass through,
I will have a fresh lass if I can gain her.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM

Hi,

We will not be going into these versions soon but I want to present some information showing the diversity of this ballad. In the US there's a wide assortment of uses of the "Seventeen come Sunday" stanzas including several songs which use floating verses that are based on, or originated from "Seventeen Comes Sunday." Particularly popular is the "How old are you" stanza and another stanza which seems to be derived from "Fare thee well my bonnie lass/pretty little miss" and has become "Fly around my pretty little miss." Many of these songs are dance tunes or play-party songs. The following titles are associated with these stanzas:

Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss
Pretty Little Miss
Little Betty Ann (Sharp EFSSA)
Shady Grove (tune/lyrics)
Daisy
How Old Are You My Pretty Little Miss?
Wheevily Wheat

As an example I give the Wheevily Wheat B version from "Round the Levee" edited by Stith Thompson, 1916. He comments:

Another version of "Weevily Wheat," collected by Miss Mary S. Brown of Gatesville, Texas, from Wallace Fogle, a famous play-party singer of Coryell County, runs as follows. The boys and girls line up opposite each other; the boys begin swinging at one end, and girls at the other, each swinging his or her partner.

Way down yonder in the maple swamp,
The water's deep and muddy.
There I spied my pretty little miss,
O there I spied my honey.

How old are you, my little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered with a ha-ha laugh,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

The higher up the cherry tree,
Riper grows the cherry,
Sooner a boy courts a girl,
Sooner they will marry,

So run along home, my pretty little miss,
Run along home, my honey,
Run along home, my pretty miss,
I'll be right there next Sunday.

Papa's gone to New York town,
Mama's gone to Dover,
Sister's worn her new slippers out
A-kicking Charley over.

Wheevily Wheat is a floating title but should have the Wheevily Whaet stanza in it-- in the preceding lyrics it does not appear. The last line is a reference to "Bonnie Sweet Prince Charlie" who, in a bizarre twist, is part of Robert Burn's song that introduces "pretty little pink" also related, although vaguely to the "How old are you" songs in the US. "Charlie" is Prince Charles Edward Stewart, 1720-1788 and the related songs have the "Over the water to Charlie" lines. The following titles are play-party songs that are sometimes related:

Bile Dem Cabbage Down
Pretty Little Pink
Charlie's Neat
Coffee grows on white oak trees

Here are the standard floating stanzas in Tales and Songs of Southern Illinois by Charles Neely:

Come trip with me, my pretty little miss,
Come trip with me, my honey;
Come trip with me, my pretty little miss;
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.

How old are you, my pretty little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me with a "Tee, hee, hee"
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

Another association with the "How old are you" stanza is found in Child 243 Gypsy David/Davy (House Carpenter). This is the most popular House Carpenter text, as recorded by Carter Family in 1940-- and widely copied (originally recorded by Cliff Carlisle 1939, covers include Bascom Lunsford and later Doc Watson). Here are the first three stanzas, the second is the "How old are you" stanza:

Black Jack David

Black Jack David came ridin' through the woods,
And he sang so loud and gaily.
Made the hills around him ring,
And he charmed the heart of a lady.
And he charmed the heart of a lady.

"How old are you, my pretty little miss?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered him with a silly little smile,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday.
I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

"Come go with me, my pretty little miss.
Come go with, me my honey.
I'll take you across the deep blue sea,
Where you never shall want for money.
Where you never shall want for money."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:57 PM

Hi,

This early Scottish version, which I've dated c.1829, was transcribed by Emily Lyle from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection (Crawfurd, a disabled doctor and avid ballad collector, was born in 1786 and died in 1854). According to Steve Gardham who sent this to me: "Thomas Macqueen was one of the collectors employed by Andrew Crawfurd, who in turn collected material for William Motherwell." This version is not from Macqueen-- it was taken from William Orr in Lochwinioch, about 1829. It's written in heavy dialect and "rinkand" (wakened) is used for "waukrife" (wakeful); "well pay't dochter" is "well-punished daughter." Compare to the 1795 print.

The Well Pay't Dochter- taken from William Orr in Lochwinioch, about 1829; from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs: edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975

1.As I gade o'er the Hieland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She lookit at me, and I at her,
And vow[1] but she was saucie.

2. Whar are you gaun, my bonnie lass
Where are you going, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
An eirrand for my mannie.

3. What is thy aige, my bonnie lass,
What is thy aige, my hinnie,
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
I am fyftein cum Sunday.

4. Whar do thou lieve, my bonnie lass
Whar do thou lieve, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
In a wee house wi' my minnie.

5. Will tu tak a man, my bonnie lass
Will tu tak a man, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
I daurna not for my minnie.

6. As I gade into my love's roum,
To see if my love was waukand,
Her minnie was blawand the fyre
For she hard us taukand.

7. Then she began to blaw the ingle [coal],
To see if she wad ken me;
But I creipit out at the bed-fit [feet],
And to the woods to screin me.

8. She teuk her by the hair of the heid,
And unto the flore she brocht her,
And wi a gode hazel rung,
She's made her a well pay't dochter[2].

9. Blink owr the burn, my bonnie lass,
Blink owr the burn, my hinnie,
Thou's gat the clog that winna cling,
In spyte o thy rinkan minnie.

10 It's fare thou weil, my bonnie lass,
Fare thou weil, my hinnie,
It's I wad cum and see thee again,
Weren't for your rinkand minnie.

__________________

1. wow (possibly an affectation of the "v" used in comic style)
2. well-punished daughter


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM

Richie, apologies. I didn't send you the full info from Crawfurd. It was actually William Orr in Lochwinioch, about 1829, so it's not one of MacQueen's.

Irish versions, though scarce, are interesting. The 2 quite different versions given by Sam Henry in the north appear to be mixtures of Scottish and English versions. One possibility is that there was a broadside, we haven't seen yet which was an interim version in between the Scottish and English.

Seamus Ennis's version recorded by Kennedy in Dublin in the 50s is a straight hybrid of the basic English version with Trooper and Maid, the Child Ballad. The first 4 verses and chorus are SCS and the next 5 are Trooper and Maid. Seamus Ennis was well capable of mixing and matching himself. I know of no other version that does this.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:57 PM

Just looking through American versions, as you say many of them are just fragments, but there are some interesting versions. Regarding the hybrids with 'Gypsy laddie, looking at the NC versions it's pretty obvious Gypsy Laddie is the host ballad with a couple of verses from SCS grafted on.

Here are the longer ones I have seen so far.

Sharp's Franklin Va version 7v, standard SCS apart from the last verse which seems to be unique in N America, and occurs in the Crawfurd version.

Catskills p479 from the Edwards brothers 7v again appears to have a unique last 3 stanzas in N. America although they are found in most British printed versions.

Hubbard's Utah version 6v has nothing special

Eddy's A version 7v has the 'where do you live' verse but this is found in a couple of other shorter US versions.

Her B version is quite unusual 8v in that it has the Scottish 'What is your name' verse, again unique in N America, and it also has some pretty extensive incremental repetition that Peter Buchan would have been proud of.

Creighton's Nova Scotia version, 6v, contains a verse from Trooper and Maid.

Peacock's 5v version is pretty standard English.

I use the word unique only with the reserve that there will be other versions I don't have access to currently.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM

Hi,

Anyone that knows any early Irish versions, please mention or post. Here's my transcription of As I Roved Out. Lomax met Seamus Ennis and family in Dublin in early 1951 so I'm dating this 1951. The last stanza is associated with Trooper and the Maid. Seamus Ennis recorded "When cockle shells make silver bells" AFS 09961A (AFS Number) in 1947 which apparently (I don't have the recording but Paul Clayton did a cover of it in 1957) has additional stanza from Trooper in the Maid (see Gardham's post). Anyone that has more info please post.

As I Roved Out- sung by Seamus Ennis, Dublin c. 1951; recorded by Alan Lomax

As I roved out one bright May morning,
On a May morning early,
As I roved out one bright May morning,
On a May morning early,
I met a maid upon the way,
She was her mama's darling.

Chorus: With me rule-rum-rah, fa-la-diddle-da,
Shall be diddle all the day-dee-do.

Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
And her hair shines like the silver;
Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
And her hair shines like the silver;
She has two nice bright sparking eyes,
And her hair hangs o'er her shoulders.
Chorus

"What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?
"What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?
She answered me quite modestly,
"I'm sixteen years next Monday morning."
Chorus

"Will you come to my Mama's house,
The moon shines bright and clearly?
Will you come to my Mama's house,
The moon shines bright and clearly?
Oh, open the door and let me in,
And Dada will not hear us."
Chorus

"When will you return again,
Or when will we get married?
When will you return again,
Or when will we get married?"
"When cockle shells make silver bells
That's the time we'll marry."
Chorus

Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXSbxe-FHEQ

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:51 PM

Hi Richie, see my post above.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 09:45 PM

Hi,

This Irish version dated 1926 is from the Scottish "Waukrife Mammy" tradition yet it has the "shoes and stockings" stanza from "Maid and Soldier." Here's the text from Sam Henry's Songs of the People edited by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann:

"I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday" from Ballycastle District, published Oct. 9, 1926.

'Where are you going, my bonnie wee lass?
Where are you going, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'An errand for my mammy.'

CHORUS: With my roor-ri-ra, Fond a doo a da,
With my roo ri ranta mirandy.

'What's your age, my bonnie wee lass,
What's your age, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'I'm seventeen 'gin Sunday.'

'Would you tak' a man, my bonnie wee lass?
Would you tak' a man, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'If it wasny for my mammy.

She had new shoes and stockin's too,
And her buckles shone like silver,
She had a dark and rolling eye,
And her hair hanging over her shoulders.

'If I would go doon to your wee hoose,
And the moon was shining clearly,
Would you open the do[o]r and let me in,
If the oul' wife widna hear me?'

I gaed doon to her wee hoose,
And the moon was shining clearly,
She opened the do[o]r and let me in,
And the oul' wife didna hear me.

Canny slippin' aff my boots
In case that oul' thrush wid ken me,
But by my feth I wasn't long in
Till the oul' wife heard us talkin'.

Canny slippin' doon the stairs,
By the hair o' the heed she caught her
And with a great big hazel stick
She left her a well-bate daughter.

Throwing in the stool tae the fire
In case that oul' thrush wid ken me,
But by my feth I had tae tak'
The green fields tae defend me.

Come over the burn, my bonnie wee lass,
Come over the burn, my honey,
Till I get a kiss o' your sweet lips
To spite your aul', aul' mammy.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 09:59 PM

Hi,

This second version from Sam Henry starts off with the archaic Scottish opening and follows with the more modern stanzas of the "Seventeen Come Sunday" broadsides of the mid 1800s.

"As I Gaed ower a Whinny Knowe," sung by Andy Allen of Bridge Cottage, Coleraine; published Feb 4, 1939.

As I went ower a whinny knowe
I met a bonny lassie,
She laughed at me, I winked at her,
and oh, but I was sassie.

Wi my ru rum ra, far an ta a na,
[W]hack fal tar an addy.

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
her buckles shone like silver,
She had a dark and rolling eye
and her hair hung ower her shoulder.

'Oh, where are you going, my bonny wee lass?
Oh, where are you going, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'Gaun a message for my mammy.'

'What is your age, my bonny wee lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right cheerfully she answered me,
'I'll be seventeen come come Sunday.'

'Would you give me a kiss, my bonny wee lass?
Would you give me a kiss, my bonny?'
Right bashfully she answered me,
'I dare not for my mammy.'

'Oh, where do you live, my bonny wee lass?
Oh, where do you live, my honey?
Right joyfully she answered me,
'In a wee house wi' my mammy. '

So I went down to her wee house,
the moon was shining clearly;
I rapped upon her window pane
and the old wife didna hear me.

'Oh, open the door, my bonny wee lass,
come open the door, my honey,
And I will give you a kiss or two,
in spite of your old mammy. '

'Oh, soldier, would you marry me?
For now's your time or never.
For if you do not marry me ,
my heart is broke for ever.'

So now she is the soldier's wife
and sails across the brine-o,
The drum and fife is my delight,
and a merry heart is mine-o.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:11 PM

Hi,

This version, vaguely similar to, but probably based on "Seventeen," is published by Ord, Bothy Songs and Ballads. A nearly identical one-stanza fragment is sung by Willie Mathieson (Scottish Studies) with a standard rhyming syllable chorus. Ord's text seems to be reprinted from Grieg as taken from Bell Robertson about 1906. The chorus is unusual. Where is it from- anyone?

As I Cam' Owre Yon High High Hill

As I cam' owre yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked at me and I at her,
And wow, but she looked saucy.

CHORUS: But I love my love and I love my love,
And I love my love most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

The first thing I asked of her,
What was her father's name?
But the answer she gave to me,
"Ye're a curious man to ken."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Did he live here about?
And the answer she gave to me,
"His peat-stack stand thereout."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Gin she wad take a man,
But the answer she gave to me,
"'Tis nocht but what I can."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Gin wad she marry me?,
But the answer she gave to me,
"If you and I agree."
CHORUS:

Then fare ye weel, mu bonnie lass,
May joy and peace be wi' ye,
And ye'll be on a better tune,
When I come back to see ye.
LAST CHORUS: But I love her yet, I love her yet,
I love her yet most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 12:03 AM

Hi,

Steve Gardham sent me two versions of "As I Cam' Owre Yon High High Hill." Both are named for the chorus "I Love my Love" and Steve says it seems to be a later rewrite. Ord's version is reprinted from Grieg as taken from Bell Robertson and is nearly identical.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:25 PM

Hi,

Seamus Ennis recorded "When cockle shells make silver bells" AFS 09961A (AFS Number) in 1947. Paul Clayton recorded a cover of it in 1957. Kennedy got the stanzas from Ennis in the early 1950s (c.1951) and titled it, "As I Roved Out"-- the same title of the Lomax recording (see text above). I'm using Ennis' original title from 1947. After stanza 4 the stanzas have been taken from "Trooper and the Maid," Child 299. Here's the Kennedy text:

"When cockle shells make silver bells" (As I Roved Out)- sung by Seamus Ennis of Dublin as recorded on AFS 09961A, 1947. Stanzas follow the form of stanza 1 with chorus.

1 As I roved out one bright May morning
One May morning early,
As I roved out one bright May morning
One May morning early
I met a maid upon the way
She was her mama's darling
CHORUS: With me roo-rum-re. Fal-the-diddle-ra,
Star-vee-upple, al-the-di-dee, do

2. Her shoes were black and her stockin's white
And her hair shines like the silver
She has two nice bright sparkling eyes
And her hair hangs o'er her shoulder.

3 "What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?"
She answered me quite modestly,
"I'm sixteen years next Monday morning."

4 "And will you come to my Mama's house?
The moon shines bright and clearly
O, open the door, and let me in
And Dada will not hear us."

5 She took me by the lily-white hand
And led me to the table,
There's plenty of wine for soldiers here
As far as they can take it[1].

6. She took my horse by the bridle rein
And led him to the stable
There's plenty of hay for a soldier's horse
As far as they are able.

7. And she went up and dressed the bed
And dressed it soft and easy
And I went up to tuck her in
Crying: "Lassie, are you comfortable?"

8. I slept in the house till the break of day
And in the morning early
I got up and put on my shoes
Crying: "Lassie, I must leave you!"

9 "And when till you return again,
Or when till we get married?"
"When cockle shells make silver bells
That's the time we'll marry."
________________
1. As far as they are "able," to rhyme?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM

H,

Here's an old version from the Grieg-Duncan collection, dated c.1850 that is missing the ending.

As I Went O'er the High, High Hill- sung by Mrs. Thain of New Deer. She learned her songs from her grandmother 70 years ago (about 1850), Greig-Duncan C.

1. As I went o'er the high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me and I at her,
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS: Wi' my towrin an' a, a reedle a,
Fat di dairil ido, wi' my towrin an' a.

2. "Where are ye gaun, my bonnie lass,
Where are ye gaun, my honey,"
Right modestly she answered me,
"An eerant to my mammy."

3. "What is your name, my bonnie lass,
What is your name, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"My mammy calls me Annie."

4. How old are you, my bonnie lass,
How old are you, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

5. "Where do you dwell, my bonnie lass,
Where do you dwell, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"In a wee hoose wi' my mammy."

6. I'll come to your mammy's gate,
When the moon is shining clearly,
And ye will rise and lat me in,
And your mammy winna hear me.

7. He went to her mammy's gate,
When the moon was shining clearly,
And she did rise and lat me in
And her mammy didna hear her.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:59 PM

Hi,

This was collected by Duncan about 1906 and appears in The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection. It's related to the revision, "Maid and Soldier." I'm not sure of the identity of Mrs. Grieg.

"As I Went Owre Yon High, High Hill," from Mrs. Grieg, Greig-Duncan D

1. As I went owre yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me and I to her,
And oh, but she seemed saucy.

Wi' my too rin in a, a reedle a,
Fal de dae ral i do, wi' my too rin an' a.

2. Faur are ye gaun, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Faur are ye gaun, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
An' erran' to my mammie.

3. Faur is your hame, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Faur is your hame, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
In a wee hoose wi'my mammie.

4. Will ye gang wi' me, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Will ye gang wi' me, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered him,
I durna for my mammie.

5. Now sodger ye maun marry me,
Now's the time or never,
Sodger ye maun marry me,
Or I am done for ever."

6. I have a wife in my ain countree,
An' how could I abuse her,
I have a lass in every place
An' a girlie when I choose her.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

From The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection:

As I Gaed O'er yon High, High Hills- sung by Robert Reid of Kemnay, Aberdeenshire. He was a shoemaker very interested in folk music. Collected by Duncan about 1907, version E.

1. As I gaed ow'er yon high high hills
I met a bonny lassie,
She looked at me and I at her
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS Wi' my touren an a, a riddle a
Fal de deral addy, wi' my toudren an a.

2. Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
Her buckles o' the silver
She had a dark and a roving eye
And her hung o'er her shoulder.

3. Where are ye gaun, my bonnny lass,
Where are ye gaun, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
An errand to my mammy.

4. Where do ye dwell my bonny lass,
Where do ye dwell, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
In wee hoose wi my mammy.

5. Will ye tak a man my bonny lass,
Will ye tak a man, my honey
Right modestly she answered me,
Just gang and ask my mammy.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 09:30 PM

Hi,

Perhaps the best and most archaic version in the The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection is the one from Bell Robertson, whose mother, Jean Gall was taught songs by her mother Isobel Stephen which date to the late 1700s in Strichen. This seems to predate "Rolling Eye" c. 1850 although an earlier date can't be quantified. It's part of the Waulkrife Mammy tradition of the late 1700s.

"As I Gaed O'er yon Hech, Hech Hill," sung by Bell Roberston (1841-1922) New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version L, collected by Greig about 1905.

1. As I gaed ow'er yon hech, hech hill,
I met a bonny lassie
She looked to me and I to her
And wow but she looked saucy.

CHORUS To my rowdum towdum, fala reedle ee,
To my rowdum tow fal dee.

2. Faur are ye gaun, my bonnnie, bonnie lass?
Faur are ye gaun, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
An errand to my mammy.

3. "Fat[1] is yer name, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Fat is yer name, my honey?"
Right modestly she did reply,
"My mother calls me Nanny."

4. "Fat is yer age, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Fat is yer age, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

5. "Faur do ye dwell, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Faur do ye dwell, my honey?"
Right modestly she did reply,
"In a wee hoose wi' my mammy."

6. Will ye hae a man my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Will ye hae a man, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
I daurna for my mammy.

7. Will I come and see ye, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Will I come and see ye, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
In't waurna for my mammy.

8. I crap in at my love's bed feet,
To see gin she was wauken,
But we hadna spoken a word or twa,
Till the aul' wife heard us talkin'.

9. She begoud to blaw the coals,
To see gin she cud ken me.
But I crap oot at my love's bed feet,
And took to the feedles[2] to screen me.

10. She's ta'en her by the hair o' the head,
And to the fleer[3] she brought her,
And wi' a piece o' a hazel rung,
She made her a well-paid[4] daughter.

11. Blink o'er the burn, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
The time will come that ye sall be mine,
For a' yer waukrife mammy[5].

___________________________

1. Fat =Vat = What
2. fields
3. floor
4. well-beat/ well punished
5. In spite of your wakeful mammy


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 10:33 PM

Hi,

This is the last The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection version I'll post. It is another archaic version of "Waukrife Mammy" as taken by Rev. Duncan (editor) from his older sister, who got her ballads from her parents, a washerwoman, George Innes, and others. It likely dates back to the late 1850s or 1860s but this is a guesstimate.

As I Came Our[1] Yon High, High Hill, sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) who was Rev. Duncan's sister, later of Glasgow. This is Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version B.

As I came our yon high high hill,
I met a bonny lassie
She looked at me an' I at her
And O but she looked saucy.

CHORUS Wi' my row-dum tow-dum, tarra riddle ow,
Wi' my row-dum tarra reedle ansie.

2. Far are ye gaun, my bonnie, bonnie lass
Far are ye gaun, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
An errand to my mammie.

3. "Where do ye dwell, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Where do ye dwell, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"In a wee house wi' my mammie."

4. "What is yer name, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
What is yer name, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"My mammie ca's me Annie."

5. "How old are you, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
How old are you, my Annie?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

6. "Where do ye sleep, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Where do ye dwell, my Annie?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"In a wee bed near my mammie."

7. May I come and see you my bonnie, bonnie lass?
May I come and see you, my Annie?
Right modestly she answered me,
I daurna for my mammie.

8. I gid to see you my bonnie, bonnie lass,
I gid to see my Annie,
But the auld wife she got out o' her bed,
An' came slippin' ben fu' cannie[2].

9. She took the claw to clear the clow[3]
To see gin she could ken me.
But I dang the auld wife into the fire,
And bade my heels defend me.

10. Blink our the burn, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my Annie,
For ye've gotten a clod that winna cling[4],
For a' yer waukrife mammy[5].
_________________
1. poor use of slang: o'er (owre) is proper
2. slipping through the house cunningly
3. She took the tongs to clear(move) a coal (from the fireplace). Clow also is "clinker," the sound a coal makes when it drops on the brick-- moving the coal gave more light to the room
4. pregnant (literally-- the bread that will not shrink= the bread that will rise)
5. In spite of your wakeful mammy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 11:24 AM

Hi,

I'm shifting to North American versions for a while. This first version is from Bertha Hubbard Beard who was born in Alexander County, NC but lived in Wilkes County (Beech Mountain area) for most of her life. Her version, dated c. 1894, is on youtube sung when she was in her 90s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyuRLQlYevo

The two extra stanzas are from Newell's "Pretty Little Pink" but are found in other versions (“We're Marching Down to Old Quebec”) and show the composite nature of the ballad in the US. The soldier here (a stanza from Pretty Little Pink) replaces the soldier as found in the "Maid and Soldier" reduction.

"New Orleans" sung by Bertha Hubbard Beard, recorded about 1970s. She was born in 1880 in Alexander County, NC learned from her father.

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
I'll march away to New Orleans
And there I'll be a soldier.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

How old are you my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?
She answered me with a modesty,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

Will you marry me my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?
She answered me with a modesty,
I'll have to ask my Mommy.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
I'll march away to New Orleans
And there I'll be a soldier.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

Well the coffee grows on white oak trees,
And the river flows with brandy
The streets all lined with ten-dollar bills
And the girls as sweet as candy.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh da dee.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:10 PM

Hi,

There are at least two US versions that are related to the older Scottish. This version is No. 127, I'm Seventeen Come Sunday in English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians by Campbell and Sharp, edited Karpeles, 1932 edition. I've titled this "Sixteen Next Sunday" which is the usual older US text. This odd mixture of British revision text has the Scottish archaic ending, with the "moon is shining clearly" stanzas from the first revision. The opening is similar to standard "Seventeen" broadsides. The "She answered me, te hee hee hee" line is common in America but apparently has its roots in Scotland as well (see Duncan Williamson's version).

Sixteen Next Sunday- Sung by Mr. GEORGE P. FRANKLIN at Stuart, Va., Aug. 26, 1918. Hexatonic (no 7th)-- Sharp A

1. As I walked out one morning in May
Just as the day was dawning,
There I spied a pretty little Miss
So early in the morning.

Te loo - rey, loo - rey, loo - rey loo,
Te loo - rey, loo - rey Ian dy.

2 Where are you going, my pretty little Miss ?
Where are you going, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'm looking for my mummy.

3 How old are you, my pretty little Miss?
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

4 If I come to your house to-night,
And the moon is shining clearly,
Will you arise and let me in,
If your mammy does not hear me?

5 I went to her house that night,
The moon was shining clearly;
She arose and let me in,
But her mammy she did hear me.

6 She took her by the hair of the head,
And to the floor she brought her,
And by the help of a hazel rod,
She made one wilful daughter.

7 So fare you well, my pretty little Miss,
So fare you well, my honey.
It's all I want to know of you,
You've got one darned old mummy.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM

Hi,

This old version is from "Folk Songs of the Catskills," page 482 by Norman Cazden, Herbert Haufrecht, Norman Studer, 1982. This is a fairly complete version related to the first revision "Maid and Soldier" with several changes. It was collected from George Edwards (1877-1949) and his cousin "Dick" Edwards. George was one of Cazden's most important informants. My brief bio follows:

George Edwards was born March 31, 1877 in Hasbrouck, a small place on the Neversink River. George's father, Jehila "Pat" Edwards was a scoopmaker by trade but worked as an unskilled laborer. Pat loved liquor and would sing in bars for free drinks. He died in 1927. George's mother Mary Lockwood was the stable influence in his life. She was a singer, mostly of hymns. She died in 1925. George's cousins were Charles Hinckley and "Dick" Edwards, both singers.

"Where Are You Going, My Pretty Fair Maid?" Sung by George Edwards (1877-1949) and his cousin "Dick" Edwards about 1948; collected by Cazden.

1. Where are you going, my pretty fair maid,
And where are you going my honey
she answered me most modestly,
I'm on an errant for my Granny."

REFRAIN: With my rosy diddler dow, fal de diddle dow,
Whack! the dooey diddle die doe -dow.

2. May I go along, my pretty fair maid
May I go along, my honey?
she answered me most modestly,
I durst not for my Granny.

3. "You come along to my Granny's house
Whne hte wind blows keen and fairly,
I will arise and I'll let you in
My granny will not hear me.

4. Then I went to her Granny's house
When the wind blew keen and fairly;
She arose and let me in.
And her Granny did not hear me. (Refrain)

5. One day I met the pretty fair maid:
"It's cold and stormy weather."
She answered me most modestly,
"I am ondone forever!" (Refrain)

6. Now I have a wife in fair London town,
And why should I disclaim her?
[But] every town that I go in.
Get a girl if I can gain her. (Refrain)

7. Oh, come all you pretty fair maids,
Rises early Monday morning:
The bugle horn is my delight
And the sailor is her darling.(Refrain)

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM

The "New Orleans" version has absorbed the opening stanza of an unrelated song now usu. known as "The Southern Soldier":

I'll take my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder;
I'll march away to the firing line,
And kill that Yankee soldier.

The 2nd South Carolina String Band - Civil War re-enactors - do a great rendition of it.

I seem to recall an earlier version, maybe in a Lomax book, that had "Mexico" in place of New Orleans.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Jim Brown
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Hi Ritchie,

This is another interesting thread. If I may just make a couple of observations on the Scots words:

1) (10 Jan 09:08) The Dictionary of the Scots Language (http://www.dsl.ac.uk) gives examples for "vow" (or earlier "vou") as in interjection in Scots from the 16th century till the late 20th (as well as "wow", which also seems to be attested earlier in Scotland than elsewhere). Among the writers cited as examples for the form with "v" are Burns and Robert Fergusson. I think we can be sure that in this context there is no comic intention behind the use of "v" rather than "w". It's not like the fake Cockney in some English printed ballads. It's just a variant form that was probably more current in Lowland Scotland at the time than it is now. As you say, the Scots is tempered in this text, but it's not completely absent: we still find "ken" and "blaw", and "haul" in stanza 9 must be a misprint for "haud" (= "hold") - not to mention "wakerif", where the printer seems to think a Scots word can be made English by imposing English spelling on it. (In the same text, "done't" = "done it".)

2) (18 Jan 09:30) "Fat", "faur", etc. for "what", "where" are common North-east Scots forms, so not surprising in a song text from Aberdeenshire. However I don't think the form "vat" would be heard anywhere in Scotland. Outside the North-east, the sound would normally be "hw"

3)(18 Jan 10:33)The DSL also shows that "our" rather than "ower" or "o'er" is not just "poor use of slang". It's actually the older literary form of the word in Scots, and forms like "oure" and "oo'r" are cited from more recent literature. As far as the Greig-Duncan text is concerned, I suspect that this spelling may be used to show that the singer pronounced it "oor", and not like the English "our", but maybe someone who is more familiar with North-east pronunciation than I am can help here.

I'm glad to see you've managed to make sense of the line about the "clod that winna cling". I wish I could think of a solution for "sketches", but I can't. I wondered about it being a printer's corruption of "shekels", as slang for "money", but according to Cassell's Dictionary of Slang that just goes back to the mid 19th C. so it's far too recent -- and anyway, why would he say "money" twice?

Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:15 PM

Hi Jim,
Good to hear from you again.
Got any research on at the moment?
I've just been reading the spats between Chambers (1849) and Clyne (1859) and Lang's apologies for Scott/Hogg (1910). Whilst I think Chambers had a point about the age of the ballads, Clyne was right to question his attribution of the 25 to Mrs Laidlaw. They were quite likely written by her contemporaries or even later.

I've searched through Farmer and D'Urfey for 'sketches' and even the Oxford Dictionary, with no luck. I think a really good cant dictionary might help. The more likely source would be finding it in another ballad.

Whilst there must have been other printed versions and the earlier one doesn't have this verse, it was printed by Pitts, Catnach, and Morren of Edinburgh in identical forms (this verse) so this rewrite could be c1800-1820.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:58 PM

Steve, part of my career was spent in searching cant dictionaries.

"Sketch" rings no bells whatsoever. More important, Partridge's "Dictionary of the Underworld," which subsumes most all of the cant dictionaries since the 16th century, has nothing at all on "sketch."


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