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BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?

Bonzo3legs 31 Jul 17 - 07:22 AM
Jack Campin 31 Jul 17 - 07:31 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Jul 17 - 07:35 AM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 07:36 AM
Jack Campin 31 Jul 17 - 07:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Jul 17 - 08:14 AM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 08:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 17 - 08:30 AM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 09:00 AM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 09:08 AM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 09:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 17 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Jul 17 - 09:48 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Jul 17 - 10:08 AM
Rapparee 31 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 11:59 AM
Stu 31 Jul 17 - 12:14 PM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 12:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 12:36 PM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 12:37 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 17 - 12:38 PM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 12:44 PM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 12:54 PM
Jack Campin 31 Jul 17 - 01:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 02:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 02:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 02:24 PM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 02:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 02:50 PM
Iains 31 Jul 17 - 02:55 PM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 02:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 17 - 03:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 17 - 03:21 PM
robomatic 31 Jul 17 - 03:23 PM
Senoufou 31 Jul 17 - 05:11 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jul 17 - 08:46 PM
BobL 01 Aug 17 - 03:22 AM
Bugsy 01 Aug 17 - 03:54 AM
Senoufou 01 Aug 17 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 17 - 04:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Aug 17 - 04:25 AM
Senoufou 01 Aug 17 - 04:37 AM
JHW 01 Aug 17 - 04:48 AM
Iains 01 Aug 17 - 04:48 AM
Senoufou 01 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM
Iains 01 Aug 17 - 10:14 AM
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Subject: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:22 AM

I get the impression that all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat - even those which are Hindu owned. Are there any exceptions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:31 AM

There'd no be no reason for them to do otherwise, given that their customers are likely to be Muslim. (There aren't a lot of non-Muslim-run Indian restaurants around here, as far as I can tell).

In the near future the main thing you're going to want in a restaurant is that its meat isn't American. Halal will ensure that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:35 AM

But a great many of their customers are likely to be British non-muslim surely?


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:36 AM

In the UK, most of the major supermarkets sell ONLY halal meat (they don't advertise the fact though) in order to cover all religious requirements. So I imagine that restaurants of any kind are more or less obliged to purchase meat from animals slaughtered in this way.

I think it's deplorable. I don't agree with halal methods of slaughter.
The Government rules about slaughter procedures used to concentrate on humane stunning pre-killing, and on hygienic standards. Now, they seem to be bowing to minority religions and putting their rules above humane ones.

My husband's a Muslim, so he's obliged to eat only halal stuff.
I eat very little meat nowadays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:51 AM

I have seen halal slaughter done and I've worked in one of the world's largest Western-style abattoirs.

The differences are more to do with scale than ritual, but the halal I've seen was vastly more humane.

Hygiene standarda are same for halal or other methods - they only affect what happens to the carcass, and the halal rules have nothing to say about that. The halal requirement that the animal shouldn't know what's coming is NOT met by the standard Western industrial slaughterhouse, where the animal is dragged screaming into an inferno of blood and guts. "Humane stunning" is irrelevant once the animal is in a place like the one I worked in. It made the Manson massacre look like a hospice.

Anyway, avoiding meat raised using brutal American industrial-farming practices is far more important as an animal welfare issue. That is what the EU currently protects us from. It's not just about how the animal dies, it's about protecting it from an entire life of misery and pain before that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:14 AM

Anyway, avoiding meat raised using brutal American industrial-farming practices is far more important as an animal welfare issue. That is what the EU currently protects us from. It's not just about how the animal dies, it's about protecting it from an entire life of misery and pain before that.

pate de foie gras anyone?

The French, at least, aren't exactly the epitome of animal welfare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:18 AM

Yes Jack,I didn't mean the Government has changed hygiene rules, just relaxed slaughter rules.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about animal welfare while being reared. In our area, although we're mainly arable, we have quite a bit of farming for meat too. Our pigs seem to be housed in outdoor fields with little huts for them to sleep in at night. They can gallop around the field all day. Many chickens here are raised 'free-range' although avian flu rearing its ugly head again has meant keeping the birds in barns for now. Lambs are out in the fields until slaughter. There isn't much beef farming here though.

My husband says halal is humane and quick, with dignity and respect for the animal (prayer and so on). However, UK Vets have disagreed and say it isn't humane at all.
There are very few Muslims here in Norfolk. Most Indian restaurants and takeaways are used by non-Muslims. I'm not sure what religion the proprietors/cooks are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:30 AM

But a great many of their customers are likely to be British non-muslim surely?

Quite possibly but being British non-muslim does not exclude you from eating Halal meat as far as I am aware. Why is serving Halal meat a problem unless the meat is butchered in a non-humane way. Which Jack has said is not true.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:00 AM

The president of the British Veterinary Association said: 'Our view is that all animals should be stunned before slaughter, based on peer reviewed evidence that indicates an unacceptable time lapse between slaughter and the onset of permanent insensibility when animals are not stunned.

Animals must also be stunned before slaughter under EU regulations.

However Britain allows an exemption for those who oppose because of religious beliefs and the number of animals killed without stunning appears to be on the rise.

The Halal Food Authority, which polices slaughter methods, says stunning can only be used if the animal survives and is then killed under halal ritual. But some Islamic groups do not allow any form of stunning before slaughter.

Any meat offered for human consumption where the annimal has not been stunned prior to slaughter should be clearly labelled as such in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:08 AM

I can't see why Britain allows an exemption for religious beliefs. Once one starts bending the rules, where does it stop?

There's a short article in VetTimes (March this year) by Nick Marsh. He's concerned because, as he states, goats and cows remain conscious for quite a time after their throats are cut, due to the physiology of their necks. He feels that the practice should be outlawed in UK.

The thing is, were it to be banned, various religious groups would be slaughtering in secret, which (like backstreet abortions) is even worse.
I would certainly rather choose stunned-before-slaughter meat.

I do admire my niece - she's a Vegan!


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:18 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4391914/Halal-slaughterhouse-investigated-animal-cruelty.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11384505/Secret-halal-slaughterhouse-film-reveals-horrific-animal-abu

And to add some balance:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31411219


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:37 AM

Again I ask the question. If the animals are butchered humanely does it matter whether they are Halal, Kosher or neither? There seems to be some conflict about whether pre-stunning is required or permissible. From what I see in the linked articles and many others there can be as much cruelty resulting from stunning as from not stunning. Maybe rather than a statement of whether the meat is Halal or not it should be a required certification that the animals did not suffer unnecessarily during the process?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:48 AM

Maybe rather than a statement of whether the meat is Halal or not it should be a required certification that the animals did not suffer unnecessarily during the process?
But who is to decide what is meant by "unnecessarily"? Clearly Muslims will believe that any suffering which results purely from the halal method of killing is necessary (in order to meet with religious requirements).


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:08 AM

I object to having halal inflicted on us by some religion most of us have or want nothing to do with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM

Halal and Kosher have the same requirements, say my Muslim and Jewish friends, and are the same for religious requirements.

If you don't want to do something, don't do it. I'm sure if you look you can find non-kosher, non-halal meats.   And why would anyone want to ignore a religion practiced by a billion people or so? It would be like ignoring China.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

As the BBC report said:
The one area where some MPs and lobby groups tend to agree that more should be done is in labelling meat to make clearer to all UK consumers what methods were used in its slaughter, and in ensuring that all abattoirs have CCTV to ensure that the law is complied with.

Clearer labelling would also help Britain's Sikhs, who cannot eat halal or kosher meat.

21June 2017" The RSPCA, British Veterinary Association, the Farm Animal Welfare Council and animal rights groups say slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering." That is good enough for me. If the professional organisation for vets does not support slaughter without stunning then who has equivalent professional standing to argue to the contrary?

Finally, why should I have to search for non halal meat when it is produced purely to pander for the religion of a minority?


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

"Finally, why should I have to search for non halal meat when it is produced purely to pander for the religion of a minority?"

Bloody right, make me very very mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM

It was not clear if Halal butchering is any more cruel than any other sort as reports seem to conflict but the one quoted is pretty recent and certainly carries a lot of weight. At the end of the day though rearing animals for food is a pretty cruel practice in itself so it is a question is of degrees.

I was not aware that Sikhs could not eat Halal and Kosher foods so, in that case, yes, it should be clearly labelled as Halal or Kosher.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 11:59 AM

Excellent post Iains. Cruelty in any form just shouldn't be allowed though. Labelled or not, how can one justify it?
It seems we are bending over backwards not to antagonise minority religions in UK, and in doing so are eroding our own cultural standards.
And halal meat is just one of the bones of contention. (sorry about the pun)


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:14 PM

I get the impression that all English restaurants now arrogantly offer only bolt-killed meat - even those which are Scottish owned. Are there any exceptions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:27 PM

I get the impression that all English restaurants now arrogantly offer only bolt-killed meat - even those which are Scottish owned. Are there any exceptions?
Never heard of a bolt killed chicken or any fish come to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:36 PM

Come on Chaps, let's be British about this..
All condemned animals about to be slaughtered should be offered a blindfold and a last cigarette...


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:37 PM

It would make buying supermarket meat rather horrifying if the packaging had something along the lines of:

"This meat is from animals which had their throats slit with a sharp knife while still conscious, and bled slowly to death. However, the correct prayer was said while this was carried out."

Or the alternative, "This meat is from animals dragged into an abattoir awash with blood, had a bolt fired at their heads and were killed 'humanely'."

I can see why my niece won't touch any meat actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:38 PM

"Any meat offered for human consumption where the annimal has not been stunned prior to slaughter should be clearly labelled as such in my view."

Should it really now. And should your next pack of shrink-wrapped shoulder of lamb also tell you that this animal was transported hundreds of miles in a double-decker lorry to the slaughterhouse, packed in with hundreds of other terrified lambs like sardines, or that the cow that this beef came from was herded into a noisy abattoir running with blood and full of the tormented cries of other animals also in line to be slaughtered, or that this pack of chicken fillets came from a bird that was kept in a dark barn with tens of thousands of other birds for the whole of its life, forced to trample on the corpses of dead birds that had to be cleaned out every day, or that this this pork chop came from a pig that was never allowed outdoors but kept in draughty, overcrowded concrete Belsen-houses living in its own shit and the shit of hundreds of other pigs?   

Let me be the first to suggest a whiff of hypocrisy running through this thread, and, not least, a whiff of anti-Muslim sentiment...


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:44 PM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11469546


https://www.hsa.org.uk/concussion-stunning/concussion-stunning

Apparently I was wrong about chickens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM

Same idea as me in a way Steve. Reality labelling.

I'm not anti-Muslim, but some Muslim practices repel me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:54 PM

I'd suggest Quorn, but how can we really know how well those micro fungal organisms are reared and treated,
and how humanely they are killed for processing...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 01:34 PM

I doubt the stunning has changed much since I saw it being done. The sheep were kept in a small holding pen outside the plant, then forced or dragged up a ramp into the killing room, which for most of the day had its walls plastered ceiling-high with blood, with dozens of sheep within sight being strung up by their hind legs onto overhead conveyor chains. You can imagine the noise and smell of hundreds of sheep being transported across an area the size of a tennis court to be skinned and disembowelled. Once they got to the top of the ramp they were trapped in a narrow cage-like frame and given a short blast of current to the head. ECT alone doesn't induce unconsciousness in people so I don't see how it could with sheep. Most likely they were simply rendered unable to move by unimaginable fear. Then the slaughtermen would cut their throats - these guys were good at it, one slash went through all the blood vessels in the neck. Halal butchers will do exactly the same; it's the most humane part of the whole process. Once blood circulation to the brain stops, it takes about 18 seconds for a human to lose consciousness, so it must be about the same for sheep.

As far as I can tell, stunning is simply to speed the process for the human operators. It only increases the animal's suffering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:02 PM

A long time ago I read somewhere that suffering animals who die badly
result in poorer quality meat,
due to some last minute stress induced hormonal changes in body chemistry...?????

ie.. they don't taste as good as they should...

As consumers, that alone should be paramount reason for banning 'cruel' slaughter house methods...


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:15 PM

There on the stair.. right there....!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:24 PM

Now listen here chaps, we British are a decent tolerant race.
We don't mind you lot living here and not being christians,
as long as you stop doing all these strange primitive fuzzy wuzzy mumbo jumbo native rituals and suchlike...

Inanes - yeah.. what anti muslim sentiment...???? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:44 PM

Shaw the simple reason that I would like to have the meat labelled as halal is that 20% of halal meat is slaughtered without prior stunning.
Perhaps if you read the links you also could be aware of this salient point.
I assume you are either a vegan or complete hypocrite.
Your point is?

The reasons for long distance trucking is the reduced number of slaughter houses-partly due to economies of scale, partly due to EU regulations

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120414053640/http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/board/fsa080504a2.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/practice/slaughter_en


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:50 PM

All meat eaters who refuse to accept cannibalism as an option are hypocrites...


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:55 PM

Punkfolkrocker.
you may have a point.


http://sciencenordic.com/meat-stressed-animals-unhealthy


http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/1454/meat-quality-and-animal-welfare/


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:59 PM

I'm not anti-Muslim. I don't care if people are devil worshippers or inmates of a monastery. It's cruelty to animals I object to. And certain other practices where unnecessary suffering is endured by women and children, for example, in the name of whatever religious or cultural beliefs they're bound by.
I also think a country's laws should be upheld, no matter who decides they don't apply to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 03:04 PM

The jury still seems to be out on whether stunning is better or not. There is bad stunning as well as bad killing without the prior stun. It seems that, if done properly, neither cause the animal undue suffereng. I am not voluteering to try it out though...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 03:21 PM

I am an omnivore, I believe I should take responsibility to kill and prepare my own meat as 'kindly' as possible...

But that's not the world we live in any more...

We have to trust corporate meat processors;
and as a mass of consumers lobby that they be forced by law to follow best practices...

I would be happy to see humanity mature out of a dependency on any religions,
but accept the unlikelihood of that ever happening in my lifetime.

Respect and tolerance for religious practices in animal slaughter,
should not be at the cost of animal suffering and poor quality meat products.

How this should be enforeced is the pronlematic nature of this discussion.....????


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 03:23 PM

I was listening to someone talk about local slaughter of animals here in Alaska. They relayed a talk they had with a farmer who raised goats and sold them to some local Muslims for Halal slaughter. The farmer, concerned for the welfare of her animals, witnessed the slaughter and was positively impressed with its humanity and efficiency. Since I'm relaying this third-hand I have no details.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 05:11 PM

Same here Greg. I wasn't singling out Islam as the sole religion with dubious practices. But in a discussion about halal meat, one is bound to concentrate on Muslim/Jewish food laws.

Many years ago I was chosen to take charge of a group of Egyptian teachers visiting the UK for a few weeks. They were worried about halal food, and in those days, Norfolk didn't have any specialist shops for this. But amazingly, I learned they'd found a Norfolk farmer willing to let them have a sheep to slaughter (illegally) under halal rules on his farm. (like robomatic's farmer in Alaska) I wasn't happy, but my Headmaster advised me not to do anything. They soon returned to their country. But it certainly made me think...


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:46 PM

If you're really worried about halal, don't eat meat.   But don't come here pontificating about it unless you're prepared to pontificate about the widespread mistreatment of animals in general.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: BobL
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 03:22 AM

I can't see why Britain allows an exemption for religious beliefs
Better than the reverse. We've come a long way since the restrictions of the Puritan era.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bugsy
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 03:54 AM

I think that a lot of people didn't give a toss how their meat was slaughtered until they found out that Muslims use the "Halal" method. Then it gave them a new soapbox to jump on.

How come no one shouted about "Kosher"?

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:06 AM

The thing is, for me having 'halal meat' clearly labelled in supermarkets etc isn't going to satisfy me. Even if I personally avoid buying it, somewhere, some pitiable beast has gasped out its last for ages with its throat slit, and apparently that's completely within the Law, which nevertheless has forbidden the practice in the past, until a 'Religion' banner was waved .

As in the case of those Egyptian teachers, we seem to be more inclined to turn a blind eye for fear of creating a situation of 'discrimination' or 'offence' to minority sections of our society.

I feel just the same about other practices (as I said in a previous post) but cruelty to animals is surely not something we in UK condone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:22 AM

Right. Read this wiki extract then tell me what this thread is all about unless there's an anti-Muslim subtext.

The animal may be stunned prior to having its throat cut. The UK Food Standards Agency figures from 2011 suggest that 84% of cattle, 81% of sheep and 88% of chickens slaughtered for halal meat were stunned before they died. Supermarkets selling halal products also report that all animals are stunned before they are slaughtered. Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed."[17] The British Veterinary Association, along with citizens who have assembled a petition with 100,000[18] signatures, have raised concerns regarding a proposed halal abattoir in Wales, in which animals are not to be stunned prior to killing.[19] Concerns about animal suffering from slaughter without prior stunning has resulted in the ban of slaughter of unstunned animals in Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland.[20][21] Generally, killing animals in Islam is only permissible for two main reasons, to be eaten[22] and to eliminate a danger, e.g. a rabid dog.[23]


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:25 AM

I am not sure it is just Halal or Kosher that may be cruelty to animals though, Eliza. As has been said here and elsewhere, done correctly the knife across the throat is less painful than some of the stunning methods. Prior to stunning a skilled butcher or slaughterman would perform the necessary with a minimum of distress to the animal to ensure good meat ensued. The introduction of unskilled labour has resulted in the need for stunning and, even then, someone not very good at it will cause untold distress.

The only way to ensure what you want is to revert to farming methods that allow the animals to lead a stress free life prior to butchering and a skilled slaughterman at the end of their life. The method of slaughter, provided that it does not cause undue distress, is an aside. Trouble is that is not going to happen now and to single out one potentially barbarous method of keeping and slaughtering livestock over another does not make sense.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:37 AM

You're right Dave. It's the 'industrialisation' of farming and slaughter methods that has resulted in unskilled/bodged practices.

I once spoke to a couple of Congolese chaps in Wroxham who worked in a turkey slaughterhouse. They said it was horrible, but they needed the work. From the things they told me, many types of slaughtering methods are pretty barbaric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: JHW
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:48 AM

Standard meat? I don't eat meat but freind John and I ate in Indian Restaurant in the old town in Edinburgh. Bringing out John's meal waiter declared 'Beef Madras'. "But I ordered Lamb".
'OK, Lamb Madras' with beaming smile


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:48 AM

As I said previously 20% of halal meat in the UK is from animals that have not been stunned prior to slaughter. It is this minority that the BVA has concerns with, arising from an exemption to EU legislation granted by the UK government. In my view this exemption should not have been granted.

"BVA launched the Parliamentary e-petition because scientific evidence shows that slaughter without pre-stunning allows animals to feel pain and compromises animal welfare. This scientific evidence includes the EU-funded Dialrel project that ran for four years between 2006 and 2010 and that concluded "It can be stated with high probability that animals feel pain during and after the throat cut without prior stunning." It is a position supported by the Humane Slaughter Association, the Farm Animal Welfare Council, and the Federation of Veterinarians of Europe.

BVA notes that more than 80% of Halal meat is stunned before slaughter. BVA's concern does not relate to religious belief but to the animal welfare compromise of non-stun slaughter."


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM

JHW, that's really funny! Indeterminate meat, whatever you want it to be. Heh heh.

There are some excellent Indian restaurants in Edinburgh. In fact, it's a city with an enormous number of superb eateries. My sister is forever going down there from Perthshire to eat out with her two daughters. But they always make sure there's a good selection of vegetarian dishes for the Vegan one. (She's also a Feminist, a Communist and a Buddhist!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:14 AM

"As has been said here and elsewhere, done correctly the knife across the throat is less painful than some of the stunning methods."
Dave the gnome

"It can be stated with high probability that animals feel pain during and after the throat cut without prior stunning" Federation of Veterinarians of Europe.


So gnome you feel you know better than the FVE. Can you state your qualifications for such a statement or are you simply blowing smoke as usual? I think a vet is better qualified to state an opinion on this subject, especially when backed by scientific studies.


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