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BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)

Senoufou 21 Mar 17 - 09:21 AM
Johnny J 21 Mar 17 - 09:51 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 17 - 09:59 AM
Senoufou 21 Mar 17 - 10:20 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 17 - 10:41 AM
Allan Conn 21 Mar 17 - 10:46 AM
Stu 21 Mar 17 - 10:56 AM
Teribus 21 Mar 17 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 17 - 01:21 PM
Senoufou 21 Mar 17 - 01:24 PM
The Sandman 21 Mar 17 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 17 - 02:29 PM
Senoufou 21 Mar 17 - 03:09 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 17 - 05:26 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 17 - 05:34 PM
akenaton 21 Mar 17 - 05:46 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Mar 17 - 05:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Mar 17 - 06:25 PM
michaelr 21 Mar 17 - 07:11 PM
The Sandman 21 Mar 17 - 07:40 PM
ollaimh 21 Mar 17 - 10:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Mar 17 - 10:51 PM
Allan Conn 22 Mar 17 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 17 - 05:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 17 - 05:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 17 - 05:49 AM
Georgiansilver 22 Mar 17 - 06:50 AM
Senoufou 22 Mar 17 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 17 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 17 - 07:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 17 - 07:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 17 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 17 - 08:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 17 - 09:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 17 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 17 - 09:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 17 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Mar 17 - 12:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 17 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 17 - 02:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 17 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 17 - 09:18 PM
Teribus 23 Mar 17 - 01:19 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 17 - 04:29 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Mar 17 - 09:12 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 17 - 09:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Mar 17 - 10:10 AM
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Subject: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 09:21 AM

I see he has died, and the Internet is swamped with hatred and disgust at the murder and terrorism he instigated. However, it could be said he 'saw the light' and tried during the last years of his life to make amends with his work for peace.

Has anyone else got mixed feelings about this man?
Can one forgive such evil if the perpetrator is truly repentant?
I feel sorrow for his family who, whatever the man was, have lost a loved one. But I have sympathy with the families of the victims of terrorism, who must find it very hard to forgive.

I have to say, I find very distasteful indeed the many remarks online about 'rotting in hell' and 'good riddance' etc. Such spite, in my opinion, does no good at all when trying to heal the scars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 09:51 AM

"Can one forgive such evil if the perpetrator is truly repentant?"

Yes, although many would argue that forgiveness is up to a "Higher Power" as opposed to the families of victims.

As for "Truly repentant", although he took a different path in recent years, he hasn't really stated that he regrets his previous actions.
I won't condemn him though and don't believe in speaking ill of the dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 09:59 AM

He did a damn sight more to keep the peace process on the road, not least when it came to keeping his own faction from fracturing, than many a Downing Street politician. It's always worth remembering that there were TWO factions involved in the Troubles and it's also worth remembering why the soldiers were sent in in the first place (it's notable that both Theresa May and John Major neglected to include that context in their remarks). Conflict is ugly and he was involved in ugly things, as were the Brits and the Loyalists. But he deserves a lot of credit and it's to be hoped that the next generation of politicians in Northern Ireland will take inspiration from the amazing and constructive relationship between McGuinness and Dr Paisley. We are not there yet by a long chalk and there's a lot of hard work still to be done. It needs people with his same vision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:20 AM

I believe the situation was complex and there were great grievances on both sides. I also think it does a lot of potential damage to rake over the wrongs, injustices and violence, instead of looking forward with renewed hope. The only thing to be gained by remembering what happened is to learn from the past, and to honour the efforts made by any of the protagonists to heal the rifts and create (and maintain) a new Peace.

I was mainly moved to start this thread by looking at the dreadful remarks by ignorant and rather childish people on various sites which express hate-filled and vengeful opinions ('Hell is too good for him', 'Hope it was a very painful death' etc). These could in fact rekindle the anger and resurrect feelings which are better laid to rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:41 AM

Just heard a moving interview with a man who lost his son in the Warrington bomb
He praised McGuinness for the work he did on the Peace process and ended by saying "Of course, you might claim that in his early days, so was Mandela and many of those who won states Israel their freedom.
I suppose people will go to any lengths to free their country, if that's what they believed in".
I remember a similar statement being made by that gentle man who lost his daughter in the Omagh bombing
Would that we all had the same humanity and ability to forgive.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Allan Conn
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:46 AM

Unfortunately the internet is filled with vicious hatred for all kinds of people including politicians most of who have never advocated or been associated with violence. There are just some very vicious nasty people out of there. You can't change history but the people of Northern Ireland managed to change course to more peaceful times. Maybe that is how Martin should be best remembered - as a man who changed course and who helped his community and his part of Ireland change course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Stu
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:56 AM

There's little doubt McGuinness was a brutal man in his day, but then that brutality was practised by all sides in the conflict. The fact that McGuinness was largely responsible for beating swords into ploughshares should be enough for us (many of whom remember the terror of the bombing campaign) to recognise his place in history. His part in negotiating the Good Friday Agreement alone is immensely significant; one day this will mean a united Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 01:06 PM

"You can't change history but the people of Northern Ireland managed to change course to more peaceful times." - Allan Conn

Don't know where you got that from Allan, "the people of Northern Ireland" never wanted the violence in the first place. Martin McGuinness realised in 1985 the PIRA had been fought to a standstill and that a stalemate had been reached that British Government could maintain for as long as it would take to get all sides to negotiate. McGuinness realised it as did Gerry Adams. Their place in history is them getting the message across not to "the people of Northern Ireland" but to the majority of the members of the Provisional IRA, who were, let's face it, responsible for most civilian deaths throughout the period known as "The Troubles".


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 01:21 PM

""the people of Northern Ireland" never wanted the violence in the first place"
Of course they didn't but the violence was instigated when the Catholic minority reached breaking point when their peaceful civil rights marches were met with by violence, both from Loyalist mobs and from the police who co-operated with them.
Isn't it lucky that people like McGuinness were around to to help getting a Peace Process started rather than playing the blame game, as is happening here?
Some people never learn - or are personally never in a position to have to.Give it a rest Teribus - we really have been here before
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 01:24 PM

It's heartening to read all these measured posts which look at the man with balanced views, not flame-throwing comments heaping evil curses on his (deceased) head.
One can't discount of course the terrible events during the troubles, and the myriad innocent people (including children) who died. I personally can't get out of my mind the Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings, where explosions tore men and horses to pieces. It made me think of WW1, and the vulnerability and innocence of the horses somehow struck me forcibly. Almost a metaphor for the whole sorry situation.
Teribus is right in that it's never the ordinary people who seek extreme violence; they just want to get on with their everyday lives in safety. But it seems it is they who take the brunt of it all, and not just in Ireland. Look at Rwanda, or Ivory Coast in their recent civil war. Grenades in family courtyards, children's arms lopped off with machetes. Always the small, vulnerable ordinary folk who suffer.

I hope he rests in peace, and that peace may prevail. But that depends on 'ordinary people' behaving with decency and restraint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 01:45 PM

R.I.P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 02:29 PM

I had a very odd experience with Martin McGuinness once
I used to be maintenance electrician for The Ethical Society at Conway Hall in Central London.
Unknown to me, McGuinnes was due to speak at a press conference there and I was working in one of the walk-in cupboards that housed the fuse boxes.
Unknown to me, he and his entourage arrived and made their way along the corridor to the main hall as I emerged from the cupboard on to the corridor carrying a hammer - a slight flurry of consternation which was soon sorted out with no problem
One of his gofers came back with a cup of coffee for me later.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 03:09 PM

Good grief Jim, they might have panicked and wiped you out no questions asked! I imagine 'a slight flurry of consternation' hardly begins to describe it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:26 PM

Lucky for you that it was McGuiness and not Teribus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:34 PM

Are you suggesting that Teribus is violent?


God, you can be so bloody stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:46 PM

Are you completely immune to irony Steve? :0)

Looking at some of your attempts at humour, I suppose that is just a rhetorical question. :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:54 PM

As a matter of fact, I quite enjoy irony. However, this is not an example of it in any way, shape or form. Grab yourself a dictionary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 06:25 PM

he was crap after Manfred Mann.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 07:11 PM

Blessed are the peacemakers - no matter how they arrived at that point.

Saul of Tarsus comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 07:40 PM

Tom McGuinness, Dick and Harry, should not be confused with Martin.
"he was crap after Manfred Mann."
Martin McGuinness was a Colossus amongst men imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:44 PM

it's a shame he didn't live to see the end of imperial englands last colony. just a few more years and the brits hundreds of years of war in ireland will be done, and they will be gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:51 PM

I thought that Steve was being ironic there.
.......................
All people in leading roles in any conflict are pretty certain to have terrible things on their conscience, if they have one. I'd imagine far more innocent people have been blown to bits by Obama's drones than by the IRA's bombs. And as for the bigger wars...

I'd see Martin McGuinness's role in taking Northern Ireland away from war as more important historically than his role in making war. If he hadn't been there I doubt if it would have made any significant difference to the way the Troubles went - but if he hadn't been there I think it might have made it a lot harder to lead the republican army and community to relinquish methods of violence, and to build a peace across the divisions, however shaky at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 03:02 AM

Maybe didn't express it the best but what I meant was the people of Northern Ireland managed to have their country change course to more normal times. If they are not to be congratulated for that then who is? That is all I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 05:16 AM

Why does the title mention Sinn Fein but not IRA in which he served longer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 05:20 AM

the Paul of Tarsus metaphor is a good one.

Saul, why persecutest thou me...and a blinding light on the road to Damascus.
Of course when Paul went back to Rome and said, we've got to stop all this shit....or words to that effect. They crucified him.

its a bit like comparing a wild donkey with the seaside variety - there are similarities , but there probably are with the bloke from Manfred Mann.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 05:49 AM

as for a Colossus
Are there any records of people sailing between his legs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 06:50 AM

During all the troubles in Ireland there was a war going on and neither side was blameless. Inevitably with wars, there is loss of life and families suffer. However, M.McG was a major contributor to the peace process, showing him to me a man of conviction in whatever he does. Like all of us, our belief in ourselves and our futures change through the years... and ''~Hey'' who are we to judge? May he rest in peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 06:59 AM

Big Al, the Bible doesn't say how Paul died. There are various suggestions that Nero, who purported to be his friend, had him beheaded (as befitted a Citizen of Rome) but others say he died of natural causes. He was certainly imprisoned for a long spell, which would have more than likely brought about his demise from disease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 07:20 AM

"Why does the title mention Sinn Fein but not IRA in which he served longer?"
Pehaps because that's where he did his best and most positive work
Why has nobody mentioned that the people who were responsible for the shooting of 26 unarmed civilians, causing the deaths of 14 of them, still go unpunished, even though who they were and what they did has been a matter of record for forty-odd years?
Why wasn't the high-court judge who whitewashed those crimes not publicy criticised for his corrupt behaviour.   
Why weren't the authorities who were responsible for the incarceration of the six men convicted of the Birmingham Pub bombing, yet continued to keep them incarcerated for years after their innocence had been established, removed from their jobs and brought to justice for illegal detention of innocent men?
This period of British/Irish history is full of such unanswered questions.
Thanks to people like Martin McGuinness, these questions were not allowed to create a barrier to peace and reconciliation in Ireland - he got on with the job instead of trying to settle old scores.
Just as well the world isn't full of vengeance-seeking dinosaurs who are as much of the problem as the IRA or the Loyalists ever were.
Maybe I should add Brexit to the list as it stands responsible for the possibility of closing the national borders that McGuinness and his colleagues helped to open.
Looking to the near future, that is quite likely to bring the gun and bomb back onto the streetes of the North East corner of Ireland nearly as much as dwelling on who was to blame for what!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 07:41 AM

Why has nobody mentioned that the people who were responsible for the shooting of 26 unarmed civilians, causing the deaths of 14 of them, still go unpunished,

A contentious case Jim, and are you ok that thousands killed by IRA have received no justice yet those soldiers are still being pursued by PSNI?


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 07:51 AM

OMG - Yet another episode in the Keithy and Jim show. Prepare for a lengthy siege...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 07:59 AM

Yes indeed MM's life of not settling old scores doesn't seem to have set much of an example to those two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 08:59 AM

"A contentious case Jim"
Settled and apologised for but still unpunished.
I adopt the same attitude towards punishment of the guilty as did the South Africans under Mandela
Punishment would fill the jails with both Republicans, Loyalists, soldiers and policemen - all of whom had a part in the slaughter.
Then we would have to go back as far as 1922 and start trying and punishing those who were responsible of the whole ***** mess in the first place - not to mention the intervening period of anti-catholic rioting, unjust governance, inflammatory sectarian marches......
You could spend the next couple of decades listing those who could be deemed possibly responsible - on all sides - before you could even think about instigating, trying and punishing them.
You would need to go back at least to the first violence in the trouble, caused by a loyalist act of terror.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:18 AM

lets go straight to level 10 of the game

JIm: I thoughT Martin was a decent bloke
Keith: i don't
Jim: so typical...You're a stinkpot
Keith: where does it say that was typical? point out where it says typical. I dare you. You're a doubledouble stinkpot! and you're picking on me!
Jim: Double treble stinkpot with bells on and wax coming out of your ears!
etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:23 AM

Yes, except I never call names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:35 AM

"JIm: I thought Martin was a decent bloke"
I didn't say that Al - don't misquote me if you insist on interfering.
I said that that this ins not time to be taking sides and pointing fingers - that's already been done ad nauseum
I've just listened to Arlene Foster - not my favourite politician by any means but her praise of McGuinness and the role he played in bringing about some sort of peace in a still shitty situation makes this pair look like Mathew Hopkins.
Rather than attempting to censor what others are saying, why not say something that we can all get our teeth into
I have no wish to spend too much time on this pair so why not help me out?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 12:07 PM

Well as someone in the Irish POst said when Adams published his biography. its a bit like an iceberg - no one really knows what was going on behind the scenes, but nothing anyone says is likely to come anywhere near the truth.

in England, we were in a particularly unprivileged position because of the censorship.So I don't think there's anything useful to be said. Nothing added up to what we were being told.

I have no idea of his contribution to either the troubles or the peace process, and i don't really believe anyone who says they did understand what was going on.

Tony Blair seems to have admired him.....worrying!


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM

Safest thing to do is to judge him in context of what he achieved overall rather than from a period from which nobody came out with clean hands.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 12:21 PM

Surely "what he achieved overall" includes that earlier period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM

well this it. none of us are really certain. in the period we were being told he was a bloodthirsty terrorist, quite responsible teachers were inviting him to into schools to talk to the pupils. it doesn't add up.

there was a lot of misinformation around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 02:22 PM

"Surely "what he achieved overall" includes that earlier period."
Of course it does
You judge the man's value as whole, but you need to put it into context, and that context was a bloody war in which nobody can claim the upper ground.
I was in London at the time the bombs were going off and my work took me into the West End - not a comfortable time and a great deal of anger about.
I was also in this town (for a week-long music school) at the time the hunger strikers were dying and the street was lined with black flags.
I had a relative, a young woman, whose hand was severely damaged when a bomb placed by a Loyalist terrorist in a rubbish bin exploded.
My there's sister and her family were escaped from their burning home in Derry and were forced to flee to Dublin for safety during anti-Catholic rioting back in the early fifties.
How far do you want to take this and how far back do you want to go?
Both sides have horror stories.
I'm not a nationalist in any way, shape or form and I do not support terrorism, but I have come to the opinion that while Ireland remains divided our children will be witnessing the same 'troubles' we have.
Attempting to lay blame is only going to exacerbate that situation.
The problem with these arguments is that to take what some people say, you would come to believe that there was only on side in this war, when in fact, there were three.   
If anybody is to 'blame' it is the politicians who failed to resolve a problem which began nearly a century ago (and could have been solved far more easily then).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 02:30 PM

***** keyboard and multi-tasking!!!
"My there's sister"
My father's sister
Should have said my relative with the damaged hand was in Dublin at teh toime of the incident
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 05:03 PM

its a bit like an iceberg - no one really knows what was going on behind the scenes, but nothing anyone says is likely to come anywhere near the truth.

That's not really a very accurate description of an iceberg...
..............
The most plausible constitutional solution for Ireland would be a version of the Chinese principle "one country, two systems". It isn't so much the existence of a separate Irish political entity ruled from Belfast that's the problem, but the involvement of a third party across the water in England. My understanding is that that notion is very much consistent with how Martin McGuinness eventually saw things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:18 PM

The Daily Mail's front page today gave Martin McGuinness's dates and two huge photos of bloodied and desperate people, one of Guildford in 1974 and one of Enniskillen in 1987. There was no further comment. Very balanced. Not. The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones. A bit of Shakespeare from my 'O' Level English Lit.

What's been missing in the last couple of days is any sense of context regarding the Troubles, which, arguably, started when the troops moved in as a consequence of the repression of the efforts of the minority Catholic community to obtain civil rights and achieve an end to blatant discrimination by the police and local authorities (NOT arguable). Well it didn't take long for the role of the troops to do a 180-degree turn. Martin was a Catholic Derry boy who was radicalised (yeah, dirty word these days) by this turn of events. I've had a bad day today and I don't feel well, so I offer you these figures, slightly rounded I admit, without comment, the aspiration being to give that missing context, at least in part (as I know that numbers can't say everything). Source: Beeb.

Number killed in the Troubles: 3500.

Civilians killed: 2000

Catholic civilians killed: 1270

Protestant civilians killed: 730

Catholic civilians killed by security forces: 170

Protestant civilians killed by security forces : 23

Paramilitary nationalists killed by security forces: 180

Paramilitary Loyalists killed by security forces: less than 20

There are plenty of other figures, of course, and many more were injured than killed. But the figures show, if nothing else, that the Troubles were a conflict of three sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 01:19 AM

Yes Shaw many more were maimed and injured - over ten times the number killed - Of those killed 1870-odd were killed by the PIRA, who were also responsible for the vast majority of those maimed and injured. Interesting to note that you did not list the number of those who served in the security forces, police and emergency services who were killed. Yes it was a conflict of three sides:

1: Nationalist Paramilitaries
2: Loyalist Paramilitaries
3: Those trying to protect and safeguard the bulk of the civilian population of Northern Ireland.

Out of your figures for nationalist and loyalist paramilitaries killed not one single one of them gave their lives in any attempt to save the life of a single Irishman - in fact the reverse was more the case - Oh and without any shadow of a doubt Martin McGuinness was one of those responsiblle for giving the orders that resulted in those deaths and injuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 04:29 AM

All this has been debated over and over again - no conclusion was reached then and none will be reached now
All that will happen will be a re- polarisation of already established positions
This was a war that need not have happened and would not have taken place if the right political decisions had been taken in the first place - if the country had not been divided into two religious halves, if the Unionists had not written out the say of the very significant minority in the six counties, if the obvious inequality that existed in the North East had been rectified in Westminster, if the Civil Rights Marches had not been so brutally quashed.....
The rest boils down to "my people killed more people than your people....." and no side can be absolved on that basis.
I know enough about Ireland to have reached the conclusion that basically, ordinary people get on with each other no matter what religion
The problems arise when politicians interfere and religious bigots take to their pulpits.
A great deal of progress has been made since the Troubles - any stumbles on the way can be traced back to the two stumbling blocks - the next big one being Brexit and the effect it will have and is already having in a large number of the British people in Ireland.
Another fine mess they've got us into Ollie!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM

Well done for missing the point, Teribus. Dig up all the numbers you can. I'll ignore you.

I didn't post those incomplete statistics in order to start a war of numbers, Jim, simply to demonstrate that three factions, not just the IRA, have plenty of blood on their hands. The militarisation of the conflict, away from the sticks and stones of the late 60s, was ramped up by the British government. The attitude exemplified by that Mail front page has been rife in the last couple of days. Let's call it Norman Tebbitry. The Troubles started not as an offensive in order to take over, ISIS-style, but a reaction to blatant repression and brutality by an anti-Catholic police force and decades of institutionalised discrimination against the large Catholic minority. I am not justifying any action by any party. I am saying that, if there really is a God up there who has now sent Martin McGuinness to the hottest part of hell, who can ignore his pivotal role in the peace process Mail and Teribus-style, then he isn't any kind of God that I'd want anything to do with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 09:12 AM

well if Brexit convinces the Irish prots that they have more in common with the Irish catholics than they do with us - wouldn't that be what everyone wants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 09:59 AM

Unintended consequences, eh, Al?


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Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 10:10 AM

red hot poker up the bum for you Steve - now you're off god's christmas card list.


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