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BS: The best type of government

Kampervan 27 Nov 16 - 02:13 AM
Joe Offer 27 Nov 16 - 02:16 AM
Dave Hanson 27 Nov 16 - 02:29 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Nov 16 - 02:41 AM
Kampervan 27 Nov 16 - 03:10 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Nov 16 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM
Kampervan 27 Nov 16 - 05:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 16 - 05:34 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Nov 16 - 05:42 AM
Senoufou 27 Nov 16 - 06:14 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 06:56 AM
Kampervan 27 Nov 16 - 07:02 AM
Thompson 27 Nov 16 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM
Stanron 27 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 09:03 AM
Stanron 27 Nov 16 - 09:20 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 09:50 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 09:51 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM
akenaton 27 Nov 16 - 11:20 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 12:36 PM
akenaton 27 Nov 16 - 12:56 PM
Senoufou 27 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 01:19 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 27 Nov 16 - 01:26 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 01:28 PM
Senoufou 27 Nov 16 - 01:35 PM
DMcG 27 Nov 16 - 01:36 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 16 - 02:47 PM
Greg F. 27 Nov 16 - 03:01 PM
DMcG 27 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Nov 16 - 03:32 PM
Kampervan 27 Nov 16 - 03:33 PM
akenaton 27 Nov 16 - 04:10 PM
DMcG 27 Nov 16 - 04:11 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 16 - 08:26 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM
Teribus 28 Nov 16 - 12:06 PM
SPB-Cooperator 28 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 16 - 01:01 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Nov 16 - 03:28 PM
Teribus 29 Nov 16 - 01:48 AM
banjoman 29 Nov 16 - 05:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 16 - 05:52 AM
Stu 29 Nov 16 - 06:10 AM
Teribus 30 Nov 16 - 03:29 AM
Stu 30 Nov 16 - 07:03 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 16 - 07:09 AM
Stanron 30 Nov 16 - 09:15 AM
Stu 30 Nov 16 - 10:16 AM
Thompson 30 Nov 16 - 12:35 PM
Greg F. 30 Nov 16 - 12:49 PM
Teribus 30 Nov 16 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 16 - 04:54 PM
Teribus 30 Nov 16 - 06:27 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 16 - 08:13 PM
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Greg F. 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 16 - 06:17 PM
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Subject: BS: The best sort of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:13 AM

In many threads on Mudcat we finish up discussing the merits/demerits of various governments and the people in them.

Do we think that democracy is the best form of government? If so then why is it criticised so much: is it the people in power, the system or the electorate?

Is there , or has there ever been, a better system?


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:16 AM

Enlightened monarchy has a lot of merits. And right now, I'd like to have Barack Obama as King.
Electorates don't necessarily elect very good leaders.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:29 AM

there is a theory that says we get the government we deserve, me, I'm not sure.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:41 AM

I'm marginally in favour of an enlightened, benign monarchy, especially seeing what's just happened in the US Presidential Election. However, the beauty of a republic is that you can periodically get rid of the President and replace him/her with someone (hopefully) better - we're stuck with the queen until she abdicates or, more likely, dies, and then we have no say in who gets the job after her.

I'm also very much in favour of a democratically-elected parliament. What I'm not in favour of is a press which is controlled by a very small handful of powerful owners, all pushing an extremist agenda, encouraging xenophobia and hatred, and heavily influencing the votes of the easily-misled and feeble-minded elements of the electorate - viz. the 2015 GE and the recent EU referendum.

And I'd take Obama for King any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:10 AM

Surely though, the trouble with an enlightened monarchy lies in ensuring that successive monarchs are enlightened. Or are we talking about an elected dictatorship here?
I think the biggest problem is achieving an enlightened electorate. Very difficult given that the sources of information avaiable to most are controlled by people who are far from independent.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:50 AM

I think the most important word in my phrase "Enlightened, benign monarchy'" is 'benign' - no political power, no possibility of parliament being 'over-ruled' by the monarch. Basically, a figurehead for state and other occasions.

I've recently been moving towards the idea of a republic with an elected president but, having seen Trump, Cameron, and now The-Beast-Of-Grantham-Reincarnate, May, come to power, I'm not so sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM

Unless you have uniformity of the people themselves, or such oppression they cannot express an opinion, you will have groups who protest they are threatened and badly treated however enlightened the leadership. How benign the leadership is reflects how they treat those groups but a benign leader does not guarantee all the rest of the population is equally benign
It could be argued that most of the antisegregation, anti-racist and similar laws arise precisely because the government is more enlightened and benign than sections of the population.

For all its many and grevious faults, I think the American version of democracy is about the best we have. The separation of powers is key, which we don't have here in the UK. A Trump with a senate against him would be far more limited in power than any UK prime minister. A Trump with a matching senate is more or less the same as the UK arrangement. This is not to say the US system could not be improved: the electoral college is mad, the president still has too many executive powers and so on, the whole is far too susceptible to lobbyists and big business overriding "the people" but overall it is pretty good.

Where I think both the UK and the US systems fail the people at a fundamental level is the dominance of party. If we could come up with a system which prevents a small panel of people determining what the party stands for and all candidates then just defending that line we would have a stronger system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:23 AM

So would proportional representation go some way towards correcting the situation in the UK and the US?


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM

Didn't someone once say democracy was the worst system apart from all the others?

There is a piece in one of Terry Pratchett's books, possibly Lords and Ladies, where the king of Lancre tries to introduce a democracy and the people don't like the idea. The argument goes along the lines of 'why should we decide how the country is run when that is your job?'. In response to the kings point about a bad king making bad decisions they retort that such a king does not last long and the prospect of loosing ones head is an excellent incentive to make sure the people do like your decisions.

I am sure there are downsides to it but it sounds a good plan to me :-)

Cheers

DtG
(Willing to be the benign dictator of anywhere if you like)


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:34 AM

I was in favour of the AV which was a previous referendum. While not a promotional system it went some way in the right direction. It would, for example have allowed a conservative pro-EU and a conservative anti-EU to stand in each constituency and the people would decide which they wished without splitting the Conservative vote. Then we could have sorted the countries position on Europe without the last decades or so internal fighting in the tory party or needing another referendum at all.

But of course we were told it was too complicated...


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:42 AM

I'd happily go for a system of PR. Unfortunately, it's very unlikely to ever happen, because the two major parties are terrified that they wouldn't be able to run the show 'all their own way' for the next five years after a GE.

It's 'too complicated' because they don't want it, and they don't want it because they're scared it would take away their grip on government.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 06:14 AM

Whatever type of government one has, it should be entirely free of corruption and nepotism. In developing countries, that's almost impossible to achieve. Lack of self-interest and pure altruism are rare qualities even among politicians in so-called developed countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 06:56 AM

Well I don't want any kind of monarch involved in having any say whatsoever in running anything other than their own flock of corgis. Not ceremonial, not nothing. The ones we have the misfortune to endure in this country are as thick as pigshit, as they make painfully obvious every time they open their mouths in public, unworthy of being consulted about anything more important than which brand of baked beans their armies of servants should go out and buy for them.

I think that there's no real alternative to full democracy. The trouble with democracy in the US and the UK, as has been made patently clear in the last few months, is that we have shamefully uneducated electorates. Political education in schools is a bit like sex ediucation, seen as a bête noire and attracting hawkish reactionary forces which oversee things to ensure that only right-wing, faux-moralistic establishment values are perpetuated. As with religious instruction, it isn't education at all. Of course, right-wing traditions such as school uniform and the unquestioning herding of kids off to services and other ceremonies help to cement the establishment hegemony. There is next to no countering of this in any school I've been in. The upshot of all this is an ignorant electorate that is easily manipulated. Prejudices are easy to appeal to, and unelected forces such as right-wing media, big business and lobby groups are cheerfully embraced by politicians as long as they sing from their populist hymnsheet. That's where people get their political "education" from, just as kids get their sex "education" from porn websites. Vacuums in knowledge will always attract unscrupulous exploiters. Proper democracy demands voters who actually know what they're voting about. This happens to a lamentably inadequate degree. The danger is that the powers that be, especially on the right, find this a rather attractive situation. So it looks like we're getting democracy because we can go into a booth and make a mark. But outside the booth we have Farage, Johnson, the Sun and the Daily Mail to ensure that educated democracy is no more real than Franco going to communion every day was a real Christian.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:02 AM

So are we saying that, in the whole of man's history, there has never been a form of government that we can generally accept as being the best and which can be made to work?

I don't mean one that's perfect just one that the overwhelming majority would endorse.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:08 AM

While we're talking about developing countries and nepotism and corruption politics, are we talking about the kind of place where a son follows a father as president, or where an ex-president's spouse is almost elected president, or where a president's cousin is elected president? Just clarifying terms here. How many members of US congress and Senate are related to other politicians or ex-politicians?

Proportional representation won't have any effect on the two parties; here in Ireland we've had proportional representation from the start, and Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have dominated politics throughout. What it does do is sometimes necessitate a coalition, not that that makes a blind bit of difference.

The best type of government for me would be the type that keeps things as equal as possible in a society, so that people benefit from economies of scale by throwing money into the pot and gaining a good, free-to-use health service and education service, as in the Scandinavian countries and France.

The worst kind is so business-oriented that it celebrates its arms dealers selling guns and bombs and warplanes to all kinds of scrotes, and deliberately acts to destabilise other, democratically elected governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM

I agree with that. At least in a democracy we're able to whinge about the imperfections of the system more or less freely (you do have to watch your back occasionally so as not to attract the hate-mongers these days). The conversation should be about how we can improve what we've got. We laud free speech, a free press, unregulated institutions such as banks and the "blind workings of the free market," but we forget how these things, too often riddled and shackled by self-interest, work against democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: The trouble with democracy in the US and the UK, as has been made patently clear in the last few months, is that we have shamefully uneducated electorates.
They keep electing the wrong damned people!

Perhaps the solution is to make government like jury service or National Service. Every one has to do a few weeks or months of government in their life, except that any one who wants to do it is disqualified.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:03 AM

That is too cynical by far. I'm not equating electing the wrong people with lack of political education. I'm arguing for a politically-aware electorate who would be less susceptible to Daily Mail populism and other forms of bias and who would be far better able to hold politicians to account in an articulate manner. Do tell us what you see wrong with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:20 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Do tell us what you see wrong with that.

You appear to be making a connection between people you disagree with and poor education, like if only they were better educated they would not disagree. Apologies if I have got this wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:50 AM

You have got that wrong, one hundred percent. There's no need to read between any lines. I know lots of well-educated people who disagree with me about all kinds of things, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 09:51 AM

And, for all I know, you may well be one of them. TBC.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 10:02 AM

By the way, if you want a sample of how politically uneducated some of the electorate can be, just listen to some of the vox pop on news bulletins. Great example from the US this morning on the Beeb: "It don't matter who the president is, cos Jesus Christ is the KING!"


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 11:20 AM

Well, I think a government which adopted the teachings of Jesus would be no bad thing.

Unfortunately Jesus never encountered global capitalism or unbridled financial aspiration.

The government which is available to us, is determined by the economic system we employ......or should I say which employs/exploits us.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:36 PM

Well we have plenty of governments the world over who affect to adopt the teachings of great religious leaders of the past, and the usual result is crusades, imperialism justified by cod-morality and terrorist states which claim to possess God-inspired righteousness. So I don't think Jesus would be agreeing with you there. I'd prefer governments who know that they are the servants of the ordinary people and who try not to get beyond themselves. I like the idea of a government that takes the best advice possible about how they should efficiently run schools, hospitals, transport, trade, housing, energy and water supply, how to look after the environment and how to keep the country secure and safe (which does not include sabre-rattling, selling weapons to foreigners and invading other countries thousands of miles away). What I definitely don't want is any Tory or royal or archbishop preaching at me about morality.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 12:56 PM

Jesus Christ as far as I am aware did not promote terrorism, in fact he specifically forbad it.
Christianity is a faith based on pacifism.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

Pacifism is unacceptable to me and I'd never vote in anyone who leaned towards it. I'm a Christian, but one has to defend one's country against aggression and invasion. I don't support warmongering for its own sake, or starting wars in other places which are not one's business (ahem...) but having a strong defence force and being prepared to mobilise it is essential.

I also would be unhappy with a government which was based on fundamentalist-type religious principles. UK is a multi-cultural and multi-religious land, and any ruling powers need to include all of us in their policies. I actually think fiercely fundamentalist religions are dangerous, hot-headed, provocative and divisive.

I do like Steve's idea of better political education for all, provided it was fairly presented and balanced. It truly is appalling to read some of the ignorant and silly comments posted on social media by people entitled to vote.

Sorry to keep harping on about Africa, but I've seen very ignorant and vulnerable voters swayed by promises coming from the lips of entirely corrupt and self-interested politicians. (Lauren Gbagbo for example) which is why my model for a perfect government is an altruistic, benevolent and non-corrupt one. (Probably not achievable!)


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:19 PM

Yes, but nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. Or the Crusades. Or despotic popes. Or the suppression of science. Or rabid Christian antisemitism. Or child abuse. Or the Magdalene Laundries. Or the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM

Spot on, Senoufou. 👍🏼👏🏼


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:26 PM

We were not discussing "baby eating Bishops", but whether it is stupid to agree with the teachings of Jesus.

I think people who are taken in by "liberal" ideology must be pretty dim, but I am sure that they are not all so.
There are many "clever" people who see it as a weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:28 PM

Well I didn't use the word "stupid." So fire away.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:35 PM

The thing is, Jesus advocated 'turning the other cheek' which is mad (sorry) when applied to international affairs. One can live one's private life according to Christian principles, but one can't use a religion as a basis for government.

It seems to me that USA, a particularly Christian-based country (maybe I'm wrong) appears to regard all Muslims as despicable and any ideas which contradict the Bible as unacceptable and untrue, even when science has confirmed them. I'd feel very ill-at-ease under such a regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 01:36 PM

Try reading Matthew 10:34 and following, and imagine it was being said by someone who is a threat to society (as indeed it was seen). Pick whoever you like in modern terms: a pro ISIS imam, perhaps. It may help you see how people like ISIS or the Inquisition or whoever can "follow the teachings of (whoever)" and come up with quite a different interpretation to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 02:47 PM

Well half the problem is the openness of religious teaching to "interpretation."


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:01 PM

We were not discussing "baby eating Bishops", but whether it is stupid to agree with the teachings of Jesus.

No, Ache, we're discussing the many and various perversions of the teachings of Jesus alive and well and guiding fundagelicals and others to the detriment of society in the present day.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

I think we have to be careful this doesn't become a religious thread. It really started asking about dictatorship, monarchy and democracy in its many guises. More than enough to cover there without falling back onto old familiar ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:32 PM

I am pretty sure that any administration that based its government on religious teachings would be doomed to failure. There will always be people of other faiths and people of no faith that would become outcasts in any such society. Because, as has been pointed out, most religious teachings are prone to a wide variety of interpretations there will always be those who would use it as weapon against others.

Moving away from religions , as DMcG suggests, is a wise thing. The only fair form of government must be based in equality for all. Not just your own particular clan or cult.

In my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 03:33 PM

Thank you DMcG.
I started this because I've always taken it for granted that democracy was the system that everyone aspired to.

However that is obviously a very naive assumption for a number of reasons.

Firstly democracy frequently doesn't work very well, especially when the electorate isn't well informed and hasn't got easy access to sufficient unbiased information to change that situation.

Secondly, there are many countries around the world that are not democratic which seem to be get on very well. Have they got a better system or is there a latent desire for change amongst the population which cannot find expression?

I don't have any answers but was interested in people's views as to which sytem they thought was best.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:10 PM

Well, Mr Putin appears to lead the most domestically popular govt in the world......his personal popularity rating is 84%

Many here see his governance as undemocratic but it expresses the will of the majority of the Russian people.

In Western "Democratic" countries the media wields tremendous power, perhaps Don's theory of "hypnotism" at work?.....is this democratic in political terms?


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 04:11 PM

One thing I think is easily overlooked is that almost all of us spend a lot of our life's in dictatorships of a kind: almost every business is closer in structure to a dictatorship than a democracy. And while they don't have a full legal system they do have rules that are analogous, with systems of punishment and in the extreme expulsion.

A few companies are set up with much more democratic systems, but they are very much in the minority.

This is one of the reasons on another thread I pointed out that what "a good deal" for Brexit would be is entirely a matter of how you define good. Businesses essentially have a single goal, and for that dictatorships seem to be the most effective system. On the other hand, if you think their are other goals - welfare of citizens for example, even at the cost of an economy that grows less,for example - then you need a system that incorporates many more voices.

There is also the question of direct democracy versus representative democracy. Technically direct democracy is possible for the first time since we lived in societies of a few dozen. I think it would be a very unwise direction to go because that needs an aware electorate even more than a representative democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 08:26 PM

"Well, I think a government which adopted the teachings of Jesus would be no bad thing."
Jay-sus Christ - just what the world needs - yet another bunch of mystics thrown into the maelstrom of religious wars that the world is experiencing - I don't think.
Hasn't the name of Christianity been used enough to cause death, destruction and unhappiness on this planet - from sending our children to war right down to the right to sexually abuse them?
The teachings of Christ as read are totally impractical as well as being contradictory.
The humanitarian ideals of Christ are as remote from what is practiced and espoused by so-called Christians today, besides, any attempt to put them into practice would guarantee the would-be practitioner a one-way ticket to Guantanamo.
As things stand, the only way to make religion work in today's world is for it become totally a spiritual guide voluntarily accepted and with no access whatever to institutions of government or the establishment in general.
In my opinion, the best type of goverment to aim for as a short-term measure is one which acts equally in the interests of all the people - in fact, a total reversal of what is now happening.
Ideally, that Government should be elected by a people armed with all the facts and without the electoral hype and dishonesty we are all subjected to.
It should be subject to recall whenever it attempts to renege from its promised programme and should include elected representatives from every section of society, all with an equal say in how the country should be run.
That'll never happen in my time, and any attempts to put such a system into place are bound to be met by extreme resistance from our present "betters" - so there I can envisage more than a few bodies swinging from more than a few lamp-posts if such a suggestion is ever mooted.
I don't believe in violent revolution as a policy for change, but I know there are plenty who believe in violent reaction to change for the better.
Dream on Jim!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:06 PM

Backwoodsman - 27 Nov 16 - 02:41 AM

"I'm marginally in favour of an enlightened, benign monarchy, especially seeing what's just happened in the US Presidential Election. However, the beauty of a republic is that you can periodically get rid of the President and replace him/her with someone (hopefully) better - we're stuck with the queen until she abdicates or, more likely, dies, and then we have no say in who gets the job after her."


Rather nonsensical Backwoodsman and you are perfectly aware that you are comparing apples to oranges. In the UK our system of Government is a Parliamentary Democracy - our Head of State is a Constitutional Monarch with no executive power. The USA on the other hand elects an executive Head of State whose administration does have very real power. As far as succession goes in a Republic with an elected President you cannot guarantee the quality or ability or competence of who actually wins the election (We've just had a classic example of this). With a Constitutional Monarchy whoever succeeds to the throne has undergone an apprenticeship that has lasted their entire adult life in preparation for the role.

Others have posted putting great emphasis on equality which for the people who make up the nation a very difficult thing to define.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM

Democratic cooperation or cooperative democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 01:01 PM

I'd favor a philosopher king.... but I know too much about too many Philosophers. *I* can be trusted, though! Vote for me! ☺


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 03:28 PM

Don't you understand the meaning of 'benign' Terry? My comparison was precisely intended to highlight the differences between a monarchy and an executive head of state.

You're either trying, as usual, to start a fight, or you lack comprehension skills. I believe it's the former. In which case, you're in for a disappointment.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 01:48 AM

Well Backwoodsman it your Head of State has no power it does not matter a jot if he/she is benign or not, as they direct and affect nothing as a Constitutional Monarch. Also the electorate have no idea at all as to whether your elected executive Head of State once in office will be benign or not, and once in office you have no guarantee he/she will play by the rules - lots of examples of limited term Presidents who changed those rules once they got into office.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: banjoman
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:45 AM

perhaps the best form of government is No Government


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:52 AM

No government, or more accurately self government, is not a new idea and comes under the general term anarchy. Unfortunately when you introduce a number of people that do not or will not conform to the ideals of the rest of the population the society cannot cope and falls apart. Hence the term anarchy has become synonymous with chaos.

It cam work in small self governed societies where the penalty for not working for the benefit of all is expulsion.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:10 AM

"as they direct and affect nothing as a Constitutional Monarch"

Well T, that's not actually true as I suspect you know full well.

How the Royals have vetoed bills

Hardly democratic, eh what?


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:29 AM

Thanks for the link Stu - It doesn't quite say what you obviously think it does.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:03 AM

It says the Royals are involved in matters of state and, like their ancestors before them, circumvent the democratic process; this means the Queen is more than a constitutional monarch.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:09 AM

The royals have a habit of quite improperly using their unchallenged and unearned public platform, denied to far more qualified people than they are, to speak out on matters that they are, to say the least, not experts on, to put it kindly. An abuse, if ever there was one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 09:15 AM

Quotes from Stu's article;

A Buckingham Palace spokeswoman said: "It is a long established convention that the Queen is asked by parliament to provide consent to those bills which parliament has decided would affect crown interests. The sovereign has not refused to consent to any bill affecting crown interests unless advised to do so by ministers."

A spokesman for Prince Charles said: "In modern times, the prince of Wales has never refused to consent to any bill affecting Duchy of Cornwall interests, unless advised to do so by ministers. Every instance of the prince's consent having been sought and given to legislation is a matter of public record."


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 10:16 AM

You're not really getting this are you? From the same article:

"It shows the royals are playing an active role in the democratic process and we need greater transparency in parliament so we can be fully appraised of whether these powers of influence and veto are really appropriate. At any stage this issue could come up and surprise us and we could find parliament is less powerful than we thought it was."

Royal consent is exercised on advice of the monarch's ministers; it's quite possible for the monarch to decide for themselves, which is a real danger.

Terbius said:

"our Head of State is a Constitutional Monarch with no executive power"

She doesn't need executive power, that's what the government are for. The royal prerogative still exists and even now only the monarch can dissolve parliament. Furthermore, the lack of executive power doesn't stop the royals form abusing theirs as they meddle in the democratic process, as shown by Prince Charles and his Black Spider memos; that sort of lobbying is an abuse of power.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:35 PM

There's a probably spurious but "I wish I said that"-like quote attributed to Mahatma Gandhi; supposedly when he was asked his opinion of western civilisation he said "I think it would be a good idea."
The trouble with taking Jesus or any other guru as your model is that gurus' philosophy tends to be rather pick-and-mix. If you read the New Testament as a history of a man's life, you'll see Jesus starting out all turn-the-other-cheek and gradually becoming radicalised to the point where he's saying "I come not to bring peace but a sword". Which Jesus is your Jesus?
One of the tropes gathering pace on the internet (weirdly, often featured on far-right and tinfoil websites) is "The 14 Characteristics of Fascism". These may, or may not, make people a little thoughtful about what kind of government they want to elect, or have imposed on them.

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:49 PM

(weirdly, often featured on far-right and tinfoil websites)

Conclusive demonstration of the intelligence of creators and adherents of the websites and organizations in question.

Heil Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:13 PM

"Prerogative powers were formerly exercised by the monarch acting on his or her own initiative. Since the 19th century, by convention, the advice of the prime minister or the cabinet—who are then accountable to Parliament for the decision—has been required in order for the prerogative to be exercised. The monarch remains constitutionally empowered to exercise the royal prerogative against the advice of the prime minister or the cabinet, but in practice would only do so in emergencies or where existing precedent does not adequately apply to the circumstances in question.

Today the royal prerogative is available in the conduct of the government of the United Kingdom, including foreign affairs, defence, and national security. The monarchy has a significant constitutional presence in these and other matters, BUT LIMITED POWER, because the exercise of the prerogative is in the hands of the prime minister and other ministers or other government officials.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:54 PM

Ha. So, who decides what an "emergency" is then, Teribus? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:27 PM

The prime minister and other ministers or other government officials.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:13 PM

Errr but Bill, you said: "The monarch remains constitutionally empowered to exercise the royal prerogative against the advice of the prime minister or the cabinet, but in practice would only do so in emergencies or where existing precedent does not adequately apply to the circumstances in question."

You are contradicting yourself, old chap.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 03:07 AM

No Shaw not really, I answered the question you asked. Which was who would decide and define what an emergency was.

"but in practice would only do so in emergencies or where existing precedent does not adequately apply to the circumstances in question."

One obvious one that immediately springs to mind is use of, or rule by Royal Prerogative, in the event of a nuclear attack that wiped out the Government of the country but left the Head of State alive and able to communicate.

Another would be if the Prime Minister and Cabinet decided to do something that was not in the country's best interest and totally against the known wishes of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:35 AM

But you said that the monarch has no executive power. According to your last post, she does, quite clearly. Make your mind up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:15 AM

There are two aspects of Democracy in the UK that have not been touched on that indirectly impact the working of democracy.
1) Corporations exist as legal entities. You can argue that their sole function is to make money for their shareholders. This they do but they also have no morality. The pursuit of Profit is the sole source of their existence.
They and their lobbyists have an unholy corrupting influence on democracy.
2)(courtesy Wikipedia)
The Remembrancer's department at the City of London is broken into three distinct branches of work: parliamentary, ceremonial and private events. The parliamentary office is responsible for looking after the City of London's interests in Parliament with regard to all public legislation, The Remembrancer's department had a budget of £6 million in 2011, and employed six lawyers to scrutinise prospective legislation and give evidence to select committees.[2]

The Remembrancer is a Parliamentary agent and so can observe House of Commons proceedings from the under-gallery facing the Speaker's chair.[3] However, that does not give the ability to participate in or influence the proceedings.[1]

I would argue that democracy in the UK has problems enough without these jokers above swanning around. They need to have their wings clipped.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:23 AM

Lobbying is a huge issue, and I've written to my MP about it before but he's climbing the ministerial ladder and would never offer an original opinion so it's largely a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 02:28 PM

I like the Old Testament, or as we refer to it, The Testament. The leaders of the Israelites go to Samuel (1 Samuel 8) and tell him they want a king. Samuel doesn't like this, and God tells him to explain to the people what a king does. Samuel tells 'em: The king will take a portion of your wealth for himself, and he will reward this to his favorites. He will take your sons as soldiers and your daughters as servants.
Samuel tells this to the people but they tell him, "We want a king to be like the other nations and to fight our battles for us."
And that is what they get. Scripture tells us in no uncertain terms what a king will do, the people want a king anyway, they get a king, and then Scripture chronicles the 'good' and the 'bad' kings, and even the best of 'em do bad things.
King David commits some big sins, and goes down in Hebrew history like JFK at a later date.

I was young when I was taught this passage, and my personal take away was that God was a democrat.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:47 PM

Hmm. JFK has never gone down well with me. Never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 PM

JFK has never gone down well with me.

Agreed - but then you've got Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II, and the current POS elect -----

Its a matter of perspective, Steve...


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:17 PM

Very true. Your best president was shat on from on high, and we got the Reagan nightmare. All the world asks of you is that you elect a relatively safe president and we don't care how average he or she is. Obama fitted that bill very well.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:31 PM

All the world asks of you is that you elect a relatively safe president

Yeah, well, good luck with that; See "APOLOGY" thread.....

The U.S. has raised up a generation or two of morons, Thank you Republicraps for the last 35 years of funding cuts to education.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:33 PM

Gilbert and Sullivan took a page out of Plato's philosopher king idea and came up with Utopia, Limited I've never known it to be performed but The D'Oyly Carte folks put out a recording of the highlights and since it was the latter part of the 19th Century they had improved the philosopher king idea by having the leader of Utopia implanted with dynamite in his head so if he didn't mind his Ps and Qs he would be hoisted:


"A pound of dynamite explodes in his auriculars
It's not a pleasant sight, we'll spare you the particulars"


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:18 PM

Wow. I'd never heard of Utopia Limited before. It's there in Wikipedia if you are interested (and please feel free to make a donation to the site to keep it free from adverts).

Of course the Anglo Saxons elected their kings. It was the nasty Normans who wanted to keep it in the family. And, of course again,it was only the 'upper crust' of the Anglo Saxons who got to vote. It wasn't democracy as we know it.

Talking politics is made more tricky because 'Labels' such as Right or Left, Tory or Labour and Republican or Democrat come with groups of associated, interlocking ideas.

It is possible to like one idea from one side and another idea from the other but on boards like this if you advocate one idea from one side it is almost inevitable that you will be accused of supporting all the rest of the ideas of that side.

Is this deliberate misunderstanding, knee jerk reaction or lack of intellectual flexibility.

Sticking to strict two party ideological scripts is not going to allow the development of new ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:00 PM

The trouble with you right-wingers, Stanron, is that you hate the label you've stuck on yourselves. Call me a leftie and I'm proud of that. I don't even mind being called hard left. Carry on! Socialist is good. Call me a commie if you like, though I've never actually been a member, and the communists got right up our noses at times when I was a leftie activist in the 70s. But you and your ilk are far right. Are you ok with that? You do fit the bill quite well...


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:07 PM

And I never thought I'd hear myself saying it, but well done LibDems in Richmond. That racist twat Goldsmith needed his arse kicking! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:17 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: The trouble with you right-wingers, Stanron
Interesting and, perhaps, revealing.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:18 PM

Reveal it then!


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:33 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Reveal it then!
Stanron wrote: It is possible to like one idea from one side and another idea from the other but on boards like this if you advocate one idea from one side it is almost inevitable that you will be accused of supporting all the rest of the ideas of that side.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:30 AM

That is not true. If you get shot down here either by the usual suspects or the usual convicts, it's either because you've advocated badly or because you're being got at by someone who doesn't matter who has a bee in his bonnet. That's how it is here and it ill-behoves anyone who rolls in the mud to moan about it. McGrath never gets shot down. DMcG, with whom I often disagree, never gets shot down. Senoufou never gets shot down. Kampervan and Bill D never get shot down. As those yanks say, go figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:19 AM

(Oh, I've had shots fired across my bow... ... but no serious injuries)


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:39 AM

You can say that again!   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:26 PM

Gilbert and Sullivan again, Iolanthe

When all night long a chap remains
On sentry-go, to chase monotony
He exercises of his brains,
That is, assuming that he's got any.
Though never nurtured in the lap
Of luxury, yet I admonish you,
I am an intellectual chap,
And think of things that would astonish you.
I often think it's comical – Fal, lal, la!
How Nature always does contrive – Fal, lal, la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!
Fal, lal, la!
        
Fisher Morgan as Private Willis, 1950s Click on picture to enlarge

When in that House M.P.'s divide,
If they've a brain and cerebellum, too,
They've got to leave that brain outside,
And vote just as their leaders tell 'em to.
But then the prospect of a lot
Of dull M. P.'s in close proximity,
All thinking for themselves, is what
No man can face with equanimity.
Then let's rejoice with loud Fal la – Fal la la!
That Nature always does contrive – Fal lal la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!
Fal lal la!


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Gda Music
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:27 PM

This Caribbean political style belongs above the line but in this case does seem to fit in answering the specific thread question posed. Sparrow`s brilliant "spoof" manifesto does demonstrate just why an electorate should be wary....politicians and promises?, Cheups!

Mighty Sparrow - *If it`s that you want*

TYSOTT SP 1004 (1976)    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-cGP1sOA_M

For the coming era, I decide I go be Prime Minister,
Oh Lord, I going to launch my campaign
My memorandum I must hasten to explain
A revolution, constitution is my plan for this land
If I win election it`s [unclear] I tell you
Anything you want dat you go get
If you want fete it`s endless fete
I will legalise marijuana X and whey whey
I will make every other day a public holiday
And open the treasury to all those who scrunt
But tell me in front if it`s that you want

You want to change the system, all the problems
I`m going to help you solve them
Oh Lord I am prepared to serve you
I`ll do anything that you want me to do
Well my intention is to please man
And woman if I can and to end all the frustration
You believe me if it`s Mas you want Mas you go get
Free food and rum free cigarette
I`ll bring down the age of consent to 7 years
And make Jean in town Minister of Hoes Affairs
Who working go hard don`t mind all who like to scrunt
So tell me in front if it`s that you want

If you don't like to pay tax and if you don't like police
Well you could relax
Oh Lord and if you love bacchanal
No police can`t touch you and make it legal
Satisfaction for the people is my motto
So you know I will make you comfortable believe me
If it`s work you want it`s work till death
If it`s land you want well better yet
I am going to go metric and divide the land
Keep most for myself and to hell with any man
Have an all year season for those who like to hunt
J`ouvert for a month if its that you want

GJ


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:23 PM

Rapparee for emperor


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:50 AM

Oldude for President


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:36 AM

They've already elected an old dude! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:02 AM

He's old, certainly, but not in any way my idea of a 'Dude', Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:00 AM

Of course when we don't get the govt we personally want we complain that the electorate is uninformed and with the inference that only those highly educated so that they agree with us (!) are worthy to cast their vote. Now this May or may not be true , but I suspect it is self serving . So we are left with , as already quoted, that democracy may not be the best form of government but it's better than all the rest . Still we still have our little rant !


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:24 AM

It seems to be automatically assumed that the only tpe of Government possible is that we have already - "our little rant" seems to be a cop-out to avoid the fact that the present form of democracy is no longer serving the needs of the vast majority of the British people, and putting down complaints on the failures of the system to selfish moaning.
Britain no longer has an industrial base, the economy is growingly unstable, the gap between the wealthy and the poor is rapidly widening and economic crises are now becoming boringly regular.
Higher education is now virtually out of reach of the average working family - from aoccasional visits to 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire' it seems one of the most common reasons given to win something is "to pay of my or my children's school fees".
Working people have no say in their lives, no security of tenure or employment - zero contracts have now replaced periods of notice.
It seems to be more than a little ingenuous to describe wishing to do something about this as "a rant"
It's an old Conservative ploy to describe a demand for a share in the National cake as "The politics of envy" - same meaning different words.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:26 AM

" ingenuous"
Disingenuous, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:51 PM

What is a "dude"......I thought a sort of flash male .....a showman...extrovert.......dandy ......like Dan really?

Mr Trump seems all of these?


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:13 PM

Ake, your confusion about the term is understandable; "Dude" meant pretty much what you said for many years, often with some contempt because it implied more dressed up, citified, and pretentious than manly. Now is more apt to denote a nice, mellow guy one would want to hang out with.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:22 PM

...But I didn't register, until I glanced back, that you had implied that the same term would fit both Dan and Trump; no way, Jose ! You might be able to put both of them in nice looking sacks, but the Dan sack wouldn't be full of crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:10 PM

I said up above that an enlightened monarchy would be best. However, there is a serious shortage of enlightened monarch candidates these days, so I'm a Social Democrat.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:04 PM

To quote Will Rogers: "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:00 AM

It seems to me that the best type of government is one that is going to change society rather than tinker with it and make it even worse than it is.
All social societies evolve, run their course and are replaced - hopefully by something better.
This apple has waiting to fall off this tree for far too long.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 05:11 PM

The kind that lets a fake embassy run for ten years?


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:38 AM

"The kind that lets a fake embassy run for ten years?"
Nigeria's, Kwame Nkrumah, led Ghana to Independence and became her first Prime Minister - unfortunately, he was a socialist.
Under his leadership, Ghana became one of the most enlightened African States - he opposed tribalism and introduced an unrivaled Education system
He promoted pan-African culture, calling for international libraries and cooperative efforts to study history and culture. He decried the norms of white supremacy and Eurocentrism imposed by British textbooks and cultural institutions.   
Under his leadership The Gold Coast became among the wealthiest and most socially advanced areas in Africa, with schools, railways, hospitals, social security and an advanced economy.
In 2000, he was voted Africa's man of the millennium by listeners to the BBC World Service, being described by the BBC as a "Hero of Independence", and an "International symbol of freedom as the leader of the first black African country to shake off the chains of colonial rule."[117]
His leadership was deposed by the combined efforts of Britain and the C.I.A.
"According to intelligence documents released by the American Office of the Historian, "Nkrumah was doing more to undermine [U.S. government] interests than any other black African."[118]"
In February 1966, while Nkrumah was on a state visit to North Vietnam and China, his government was overthrown in a military coup led by Emmanuel Kwasi Kotoka and the National Liberation Council. President Nkrumah himself alluded to possible American complicity in the coup in his 1969 memoir Dark Days in Ghana, though he may have based this conclusion on falsified documents shown to him by the KGB.[112]
In 1978 John Stockwell, former Chief of the CIA's Angola Task Force, wrote that agents at the CIA's Accra station "maintained intimate contact with the plotters as a coup was hatched." Afterward, "inside CIA headquarters the Accra station was given full, if unofficial credit for the eventual coup.... None of this was adequately reflected in the agency's written records."[113]
KWAME NKRUMAH
Around the same time, Congolese independence leader and the first democratically elected leader of the Congo, Patrice Lumumba, began to bring about similar reforms in the former Belgian Congo - he died in a plane mysterious plane crash.
Is supporter in the United Nations, Secretary-General, Dag Hammarskjöld suffered a similar fate
"During a thirty-five-month period from January 1961 to November 1963 the politics and foreign relations of southern Africa were drastically altered by the deaths of Patrice Lumumba, Dag Hammarskjöld, and John F. Kennedy. Aside from Kwame Nkrumah, these three men were at the time arguably the most polarizing figures in Africa, adored by African nationalists and despised by the racist white settlers who dominated the politics of the southern half of the continent. Each of these three men, from separate continents yet all champions for the idea of self-determination in Africa, died violent deaths, the details of which remain shrouded in mystery to this day."
That crash has been put down to sabotge too.
Democracy eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stu
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:42 AM

'Jim Carroll'

Turing test results: Failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:19 PM

Sorry - above my head Stu
Wasn't Alan Turing the war hero who was chemically castrated for being gay?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:46 PM

I got it. Most of the people here who do computers will understand the Turin test.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 01:16 PM

I got it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 01:25 PM

"Turin test."
No - indulge me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 02:41 AM

Turing Test


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:34 AM

A post of mine from earlier in this thread that was part of an exchange with Backwoodsman:

Teribus - 29 Nov 16 - 01:48 AM

Well Backwoodsman if your Head of State has no power it does not matter a jot if he/she is benign or not, as they direct and affect nothing as a Constitutional Monarch. Also the electorate have no idea at all as to whether your elected executive Head of State once in office will be benign or not, and once in office you have no guarantee he/she will play by the rules - lots of examples of limited term Presidents who changed those rules once they got into office.


Kwame Nkrumah was a perfect example of this:

- Subverted the judiciary
- Banned all other political parties
- Rigged elections
- Ignored limited terms and made himself "President for Life"

It only took him 7 years to do this.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:42 AM

Thanks B.W.
Never come across it before
Will struggle with the suggestion that a machine is more capable of convincing people than is human contact.
I think I get Stu's point - I don't expect to convert people to my way of thinking, nor do I believe they will convert me to theirs.
I look on these arguments and discussions as an exchange of ideas in which we gather as many views as possible and weigh them up against our own - and make our final decision on the basis of everything available.
Are machines more capable of enabling that - maybe - but we all need to accept that as an objective.
What I am finding helpful is that arguments like these have enabled me to bring together all the bits and pieces I (think I) have learned throughout my life and relate them.
I have never associated what I believed happened in Africa in 1060s Africa with what was happening in 1650s/60s America and Cuba - I am beginning to now - you live and learn.
Sorry for the digression
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 06:10 AM

In 1960s Africa - of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 07:09 AM

"Kwame Nkrumah was a perfect example of this:"
Do you actually have proof to the contrary?
The U.N. denied this happened and Dag Hammarskjold paid with is life for defending him.
The link here 06 Dec 16 - 10:38 AM suggests a different Nkruma.
This is how Ralph Bunche American political scientist, academic, and diplomat who received the 1950 Nobel Peace Prize for his late 1940s mediation in Israel, summed him up on behalf of the Harlem Lawyers Association in 1958.
"We salute you, Kwame Nkrumah, not only because you are Prime Minister of Ghana, although this is cause enough. We salute you because you are a true and living representation of our hopes and ideals, of the determination we have to be accepted fully as equal beings, of the pride we have held and nurtured in our African origin, of the freedom of which we know we are capable, of the freedom in which we believe, of the dignity imperative to our stature as men."
Your version seems to be a straight lift from the image projected by the C.I.A. and the others who indisputably organised the coup to overthrow him.
The same type of people probably engineered the death of Partice Lumumba.
but I'm always open to alternative information should it be forthcoming.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 07:50 AM

Interesting that after so many years the controversy surrounding the death of dag-hammarskjold should resurface.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/03/un-to-pursue-further-inquiry-into-death-of-dag-hammarskjold


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 08:16 AM

Thanks for that Iains
Interesting indeed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 11:58 AM

"Do you actually have proof to the contrary?" - Jim Carroll

No Jim I don't have any contrary proof that is why I said what I did - Kwame Nkrumah was a perfect example of an elected executive Head of State who once in office did not play by the rules. He was a limited term President who changed those rules once they got into office by:

- Subverting the judiciary
- Banning all other political parties
- Rigging elections
- Ignoring limited terms by making himself "President for Life"


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 12:55 PM

Prove it - all you give are a list of pronouncements, none of which appear in anything I can find or have ever read on Nkruma.
You want your pronouncements accepted - back them up with evidence or they will remain unaccepted.
I knw that your description was a current description at the time - largely circulated by the people who helped depose him, but the facts, as I have come to believe them don't hold water.
There were no reports of any kind of repression in Ghana after independence until after the coup.
It took the C.I.A. backed move to 'freedom' to bring that.
"A series of alternating military and civilian governments from 1966 to 1981 ended with the ascension to power of Flight Lieutenant Jerry John Rawlings of the Provisional National Defense Council (PNDC) in 1981.[50] These changes resulted in the suspension of the Constitution of Ghana in 1981, and the banning of political parties in Ghana.[51] The economy suffered a severe decline soon after, Kwame Nkrumah negotiated a structural adjustment plan changing many old economic policies, and economic growth soon recovered from the mid–2000s.[51] A new Constitution of Ghana restoring multi-party system politics was promulgated in Ghanaian presidential election, 1992; Rawlings was elected as president of Ghana then, and again in Ghanaian general election, 1996.[52]"
Nkruma was removed because of his association with the Communist Bloc - as far as I know, there were no other reasons given.
You may know different, but as I said, if you do, produce you evidence instead of a list of propaganda based claims
GHANA
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 01:10 PM

"all you give are a list of pronouncements, none of which appear in anything I can find or have ever read on Nkruma." - Jim Carroll

Try actually reading the Nkrumah link that you yourself provided. That is where I got the information I posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:04 PM

"Try actually reading the Nkrumah link that you yourself provided."
Read it - there is no evidence that Nkruma did anything but replaced British Colonial justice with one that suits a situation where there were at least seven attempts on Nkrumah's life.
Read deeperand yo will find the changes he made were basically to decentralise the old system and remove the right for a judge to rele a case inadmissible.
That system was upheld by those who took over following the C.I.A. planned coup and approved of by Britain - Ghana was considered in safe hands by then
Thirty six African countries had a one-party system - all approved by Britain and considered the best way forward for former colonies.
Nkruma never, not was accused of taking personal advantage of his rule and the changes he brought about where praised throughout the world - under his rule, Ghana prospered and the people benefited enormously - until after the coup, when all civil rights were dismantled,
We are still getting your interpretation and no evidence of the despotism you are implying
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 03:26 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G72TKMgI60o&feature=youtu.be


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 04:26 AM

Seems an improvement on the present farce Gnu
Here in Ireland we have a similar set up – ends up with a much fairer representation and can be a total game changer.
Last election was a close-run one, which took weeks to sort out and produce a balanced government.
Several of the measures pushed through by previous Government were put on hold - water taxes, which had been greeted with huge nation protests (totally unprecedented in Ireland) are being debated a year later (so far they have only been watered down (pun intended) and it is hopeful that they have been abandoned altogether and those (about 70who have paid them will be recompensed – people-power
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The best type of government
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 04:32 AM

Should read : "and those (about 70who have paid them 61 per cent end of the third billing cycle, 55 per cent at the end of the second cycle and 44 per cent at the end of the first billing cycle, will be recompensed
Jim Carroll


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