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BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?

Steve Shaw 01 Nov 16 - 05:07 AM
Stu 01 Nov 16 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 16 - 06:17 AM
akenaton 01 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Nov 16 - 08:05 AM
Teribus 01 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM
Stu 01 Nov 16 - 08:28 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 16 - 08:43 AM
Teribus 01 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM
Stu 01 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM
Donuel 01 Nov 16 - 12:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Nov 16 - 05:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM
Teribus 02 Nov 16 - 02:49 AM
Allan Conn 02 Nov 16 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM
Teribus 02 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 16 - 06:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Nov 16 - 07:12 AM
Teribus 02 Nov 16 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 16 - 01:47 PM
Raedwulf 02 Nov 16 - 02:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Nov 16 - 03:05 PM
akenaton 02 Nov 16 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Nov 16 - 06:39 PM
Allan Conn 02 Nov 16 - 07:16 PM
Allan Conn 02 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM
akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 04:33 AM
Stu 03 Nov 16 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM
Raedwulf 03 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 02:05 PM
akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 02:10 PM
Raedwulf 03 Nov 16 - 02:14 PM
akenaton 03 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM
Raedwulf 03 Nov 16 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 16 - 12:17 PM
Raedwulf 04 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM
Joe_F 04 Nov 16 - 09:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Nov 16 - 09:28 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM
Raedwulf 05 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Nov 16 - 11:53 AM
Raedwulf 05 Nov 16 - 12:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 16 - 04:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 16 - 04:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:07 AM

The USA is not much smaller than the EU in population. One of its states alone has a much larger economy than most EU countries. Apart from the UK, twenty miles offshore, and islands that are not separate nations, the EU nations are pretty much a contiguous block. The US has Hawaii and Alaska, making the country less contiguous than the EU. There are tensions in both the EU between poorer "southern" states and the more prosperous "north." There is free movement of people in both. There are no tariff barriers between states/nations in both. The nations/states in both, crucially, are fiercely proud, to a greater or lesser extent, of their distinctive identities and are generally successful in maintaining them. In both, the nations/states enjoy a fair degree of autonomy whilst having to abide by laws that cover the whole lot of them. In general, these laws are overwhelmingly accepted by everyone, and representatives from all nation states/states have a say in making those laws. In both, there will be disagreements about some of those laws, but substantial disagreements are few and far between. There are plenty of differences between the two blocks, regarding language barriers and the origins and evolution of the two unions, and there's the disease of gigantism that afflicts both. But there are plenty of similarities, and Joe's comparison stands. It behoves us to examine what it is that works in each and to be informed by that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:24 AM

"I thought that this was exactly the 'hidden agenda' that drove the EU."

You were wrong then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 06:17 AM

"Jim, I can't make sense of the following comment."
Training schemes are set up to pay lip service to high unemployment.
They either train for low paid jobs people don't want to do and cannot afford to take because the rates of pay of minimal.
They are there to force many into the lowest paid jobs rather than to provide genuine, remunerative work.
Being a member of the E.U. entitled workers to seek work abroad for decent rates of pay.
Over the years, Britain has lost all its major industries - if Scotland becomes independent, as it now may, thanks to Brexit, it will have lost its last major shipyards.
Brexit was pushed through on the xenophobia ticket - you know this - you were the first to crow about it.
You nor any of you Brexiters have had the bottle to respond to the storm of race hate you have managed to stir up - and we haven't begun to deport refugees yet!
Our shops are full of exported goods manufactured under slave labour condidtions and Brixit means that we will not take refugees from the conditions we have helped create.
Imperialism without the Empire
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM

Thanks Jim, but I still don't get it.
Many Immigrants send their minimal wages back home where they are worth three or four times as much, whereas as you know, a young married Brit on minimum wage can hardly survive, never mind buy a house or bring up a family.

Mass immigration drives DOWN wages and puts huge strains on public services......It is an economic policy, and not a socialist one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:05 AM

The only way mass immigration can drive down wages is if employers are allowed to get away with it. If a job doesn't pay enough for someone with family responsibilities in this country it is not paying a living wage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM

MGOH that all presupposes that the "employers" are British, that the "employees" are directly employed and that their employment contracts are subject to British Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:28 AM

The brexiteers are happy to blame everyone but the government for the perceived injustices they think are being perpetrated on them. Their right-wing pals didn't control immigration when they said they would so now it's the EU's fault, and they're quite prepared to throw the baby out with the bathwater by excluding people we need in our universities by restricting freedom of movement and borders on science and research for the sake of a few Eastern-European workers whose jobs no Brit wants to do anyway.

All this feeds into their nationalistic delusions of 'taking back control' on the day the government refuses to tell us what sweeteners the taxpayer will be stumping up to keep Nissan in the UK, the pound is tanking (higher prices for us plebs, here we come) and a quiet exodus of service industries (especially financial) is underway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:43 AM

"Mass immigration drives DOWN wages"
Not according to official figures - this is one of the great myths used by politicians who rely on the race card to win popularity - one of the oldest political lies in the book.
Employers drive down wages, not immigrants, who are being used as scapegoats, as they always have been.
Even if it were true, the answer would be to regulate wages, not drive out refugees from conditions we have played a major part in creating.
We continue to sell arms to despots who create the conditions these impoverished people are fleeing from and we fill our shops with their products.
This is plain, simple racism - it is not even good economics - and it is totally devoid of a shred of humanity.
I've said this before, but if wartime Britain had adopted the same stance as is being adopted here, there would have been a lot more dead Jews.
The people you pay lip service to getting rid of to create a better world stay in power by turning the poor against the poorer, and you have made yourself a strident advocate of that disgraceful tactic - shame on you - it totally undermines any claim you make to being a socialist.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM

Yet taking all that at face value Stu - we are doing much, much better than "Europe" and those countries in the Eurozone.

As for the "taking back control" thing - out of the EU and free from its interference the country has a chance of doing just that whereas stuck inside the EU we stand no chance whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM

"we are doing much, much better than "Europe" and those countries in the Eurozone."

How can our performance be assessed at present though? The signs are mixed for sure, but then we're in a sort of phoney peace before Article 50 is triggered; we know other Japanese firms are being approached to leave the UK. These signs are not good, with only exports being something to cheer about. For the time being I think we're in a sort of limbo, not helped any the tories reverting to their authoritarian default position and leaving us all in the dark.

As for control, we've destroyed any chance of influencing pretty much anyone, we're even inviting the Chinese to take control of part of our infrastructure with their crappy nuclear reactor. We've caved already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM

"taking back control"
Until we replace th industries destroyed by former governments, tha only thing Britain can 'take control of" is its borders - an impoverished Fortress Britain reliant on imports
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:54 PM

RE: BS; American Exceptionalism = BS extraordinaire.

Jim needs to learn his real enemy; Trans National Corporations & Banks

Joe Nat./Pat. are two different things. You made a gross false equivalency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:06 PM

It amuses how we keep getting stuff about how Brexit isn't so bad after all, when we are still years off getting it.

As I've commented before, it's like jumping off a skyscraper and congratulating yourself on the way down that it's all working out fine.

It's an awfully long way down...

Or there's the story of the man who took an overdose of paracetamol, and woke up in hospital, and was so pleased the suicide hadn't worked. Excep that it had - only it takes a bit of time to die from the effects of a paracetamol overdose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM

If I understand the spirit of the opening question correctly then I would reservedly go for bad. We are all in this together and like it or not the world is now really becoming the global village. Nationalism can pander to the looking after number one philosophy that has caused many problems in the past. There is no reason that people should ensure that there own little corner of the world thrives to the detriment of those in another land. However we do not know how unfettered globalisation would fare either as it is not something that has ever been tried. We do know that unrestricted capitalism does not work and neither does unopposed socialism.

Maybe we should learn from our mistakes and realise that it is the excesses of any one economic model that can work against us? Perhaps we should try properly regulated capitalism or socialism tinged with the reality of a consumer society? Maybe nationalism can work as long as it remains within the confines of what is best for everyone rather than what is best for yourself?

As to patriotism. Well, again, extremes are what we need to guard against. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the achievements of your country, as long as you can honestly lay claim to helping with those achievements. Being patriotic to the extent of believing that your accident of birth is somehow more important or better than someone elses accident of birth seems somewhat futile and often simply confrontational.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:49 AM

"It amuses how we keep getting stuff about how Brexit isn't so bad after all, when we are still years off getting it."

If that is your view Kevin because "we are still years off getting it" then the reverse is also true, i.e. "all this stuff about how Brexit is so bad".

Your views and those of many of those who put the case for remaining seem based on the premise that everything within the EU is fine when we all know that it is not. For decades it has needed drastic reform and some of it's major players have required drastic reform which they all seem totally incapable of carrying out.

The Euro and fiscal union were according to those who thought the idea up only feasible once political union had been achieved and established. The EU in its own inimitable style for propaganda reasons put the horse before the cart and did things the wrong way round. The leading advocate of the Euro is now its greatest critic.

The problems facing Greece, Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal and France have not gone away. In good old EU Commission fashion the can has just been kicked down the road a little way to stave off them having to do anything about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:25 AM

"If I understand the spirit of the opening question correctly then I would reservedly go for bad."

I'd say bad nationalism is bad. It is simply wrong to dismiss all nationalists as believing in something bad. As I've already pointed out and evidenced by the youtube clip the current leadership and direction of the nationalists in Scotland is much more open and inclusive than the leadership and direction of the British gvt. Of course in truth both are nationalist it is just that they disagree on what should be their national gvt.

Some simple facts. The nationalist gvt in Scotland gave EU citizens the vote in the Scottish referendum - the UK gvt did not in the EU referendum. The SNP in their white paper on independence guaranteed that everyone legally living in Scotland would retain their rights of residence in an independent Scotland - whereas months after the Brexit vote the UK gvt still chooses not to guarantee such rights so that EU citizens can be used as pawns in negotiations. Of the major politicians the SNP leader was one of the first, possible the first, to castigate the UK gvt for not guaranteeing such rights. The SNP leader held public meetings with hundreds of respresentatives of EU citizens tring to assure them that the Scottish gvt would do everything it can to secure their rights.

Sorry but this idea that if you are a nationalist then you automatically believe in something wrong and negative simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Each person should be judged on their actions and what they say and not castigated if they believe their national gvt should be something other than what it is at the moment. Believing in the self determination of the nation is not the same as being chauvinistic and believing that your nation is superior and more important than other nations. It is perfectly compatible to believe in independence and want your country to be inclusive, open and ready to work together with other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM

"Jim needs to learn his real enemy; Trans National Corporations & Banks"
The really enemy is the Enemy Within - the Governments and politician who allow "Trans National Corporations & Banks" to run roughshod over the will and well-being of the population as a whole.
Without Government and political support and with firm regulation, they would be merely businesses plying a trade.
Surely the various banking crises are evidence enough of that - maybe not!
Allan is right - "bad nationalism is bad".
Good Nationalism brought about the fall of Empires and freed the world to go their own way - and make their own mistakes.
Unfortunately, the British Establishment has retained some of the worst aspects of Imperialism and has used the inherent 'superiority' that was drilled into my generation to engender hate and fear towards those we once ruled - we have the perfect example on this forum in the handful of flag-waggers who still talk about "the brainwashed Irish" and the "culturally implanted" Pakistanis and the Scots who "couldn't make it on their own" and the "Frogs who never won a war".......
Racial intolerance and xenophobia is never far below the surface in Britain and has a nasty habit of floating to the surface whenever it is needed to keep us in our place.   
RACISM in BRITAIN
Pride in ones people and their achievements is laudable - blind support for any nation and its institutions "My Country - Right and Wrong" is evil and dangerous.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 05:12 AM

Hence the 'if I understand correctly' and 'reservedly bad' comment Allan. I understand the OP to mean what you describe as 'bad nationalism' and not all nationalism. I am in full agreement with your sentiments in the last paragraph but, unfortunately, nationalism as you describe seems to have attracted more than it's fair share of the other type. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I think it may be the type of nationalism engendered by 'The Sun' and other such organs that he is referring to.

Maybe the word has now been twisted too far and we need a new one? Or, better still, maybe the bad type of nationalism should find it's own!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM

Allan Conn - Now tell the good people about the Scots who the SNP refused to give the vote to.

EU citizens living in Scotland included those who had no intention of living in Scotland on any sort of permanent basis

Included students who could vote and then disappear back to their own countries and never have to suffer the consequences.

The SNP set the franchise as wide as it possibly could in the hope of getting the result they wanted - the strategy failed.

EU membership is a complete and utter red-herring. In terms of trade, Scotland's main trading partner is England therefore economically the Union with England is of far greater importance to Scotland than the EU.

Irrespective of any referendum on Scottish Independence, that independent Scotland will not automatically be a member of the EU. The time line would be as follows:

Referendum result for an independent Scotland.
Two years after which the break-up of the Union is finalised.
Scotland then has to apply for EU membership subject to acceptance of that application by all other member state governments.
Time taken to meet EU entry criteria, politically, socially and economically (Probably looking at about 5 to 10 year period).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:59 AM

"EU membership is a complete and utter red-herring."
No it isn't.
Trade takes place between England and Scotland because it is of mutal interest that it should happen, not because of English links with Scotland.
There is no reason in the world why trade should not continue if the political link was broken by independence.
Britain fought tooth and nail to maintain trade links with its old colonies, just as it is fighting to keep the markering links with Europe after Brexit - why should Scotland be any different?
It is arguments like these that fill the seas with red-herrings
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:12 AM

"Your views and those of many of those who put the case for remaining seem based on the premise that everything within the EU is fine when we all know that it is not. For decades it has needed drastic reform and some of it's major players have required drastic reform which they all seem totally incapable of carrying out.

In fact I have pretty well invariably indicated that the EU as it stands badly needs a lot of reforms. I am confident you would not be sble to find one single post in which I have said anything approximating to what you accuse me of saying.

Jeremy Corbyn was criticised for saying that he was only 7 out of ten in favour of staying in the EU. I feel the same way, and I imagine a great many others did as well. But 7 out of ten is a significant margin of preference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:12 PM

"Trade takes place between England and Scotland because it is of mutual interest that it should happen, not because of English links with Scotland.

There is no reason in the world why trade should not continue if the political link was broken by independence."


At the time of the Independence Referendum there was a very good reason why trade would have been seriously affected had Scotland opted for Independence in 2014 - The UK would have been an EU Member State and the Newly Independent Scotland would not. This would have affected 80% of Scotland's trade.

As far as Scotland is concerned 80% of her trade and economy is connected to England and the United Kingdom and 20% with the rest of the world and the EU - so tell me which link is the more important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:47 PM

"At the time of the Independence Referendum "
That was then - this is now.
Fortress England cannot afford to cease trade with anybody - hence the present accusations of the Republic" attempting to steal British Trade.
As you still refuse to link your pronouncements to anything resempleing evidence, we have toy take you at your word -as ever.
Given your track record - thanks, but no thanks.
You really do love selecting only the bit of information that suit your jingoism, don't you?
It's fairly obvious that the Scots Nats see Scotland's future with Europe rather than Britain's floundering economy - maybe they don't mind welcoming foreigners to their shores - funny people, the Scots!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:27 PM

Going only on the thread title, without having even read the OP... The same word can mean many things to different people. An entire sentence / comment of several words, therefore... I'm sure you can all think of your own examples of something where you / they / someone said "X" and they / you / someone HEARD "Y".

In my opinion, it's where an awful lot of misunderstandings arise. In my experience, it simply never occurs to most people that when someone uses word or expression "X", what they or others hear isn't *necessarily* the same thing. Especially in an email or internet post, which people WILL treat as a conversation; despite the lack of inflection, body language, etc; rather than as a letter, and all sorts of flames result. And which, naturally, doesn't stop "most people" leaping to all sorts of conclusions, making judgements, etcetera!

Anyway, to me, nationalism and patriotism are two entirely different things. Patriotism boils down to "I am proud of my country"; nationalism to "my country is best!". The difference? Implicit is that I can be proud of my country whilst being well aware of a lot of shit things that it's done (we did good things too). But if my country is best? The "implicit" is "How dare you criticise my country, how dare you suggest we ever did anything shit!"

To put it another way, as a patriot, I can appreciate your patriotism / pride in your entirely different nation. As a nationalist, I condescendingly acknowledge your pride, knowing all the time that you are inherently inferior...

If you see what I mean? On balance, no. By my personal definition of nationalism, it is a bloody disaster zone. Patriotism, proper patriotism, is great. I'm proud English, British, European, man of the world. In that order. If you're a proud German, Yank, Canuck, Whatever... Good for you!

Nationalism is a cancer. You're not better than me. You're just different (and probably narrow-minded).

If you see what I mean...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:05 PM

Since Scotland would have no problems about retaining free movement, even if it had been excluded from the EU (that's very much "even if") there would have been no comparable difficulties standing way of staying in the tariff free area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:16 PM

Mr McGrath, Scotland has not seen the effects of mass unregulated immigration that have become apparent in large areas of England and Wales. In Scotland we have Pakistani and Indian Communities who have settled in our cities over a very long period. They arrived in manageable numbers and although not fully integrated they get on reasonably well with indigenous Scots.

If Scotland becomes independent, or should I say "WHEN" Scotland becomes independent it will have to be decided what style of government will be adopted.....it may be a socialist, liberal, or conservative govt depending on the economic conditions which prevail at that time.

I would not like to see a new Scotland build its economy on the backs of cheap immigrant labour....even if it meant a fall in living standards; I want to see full employment for our people, decent wages, and compulsory work experience for all school leavers.

After independence it should not be an option to keep a generation on minimal benefits or short term contract employment.
Nationalism should mean giving our people inspiration and a chance of a proper future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:39 PM

That's as may be. However the present Scottish government has indicated it has no wish to halt free movement, and is still trying to get the Westminster to assist in finding a way for the country to avoid being dragged out of the EU by England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:16 PM

The original post said "I've been thinking about nationalism in all it's various guises and forms and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing" so to me nationalism in all it's various guises and forms would have to include not just the completely democratically based civic nationalism in the likes of Scotland but also the likes of the singing revolution in the Baltic states etc during the collapse of the Soviet Empire. Plus of course it would include the British nationalism displayed by many in the No campaign itself. If one is going to denounce chauvinism, bigotry and xenophobia then denounce them - but tarring all nationalists as chauvinistic, bigoted and xenophobic is in itself not a fair and balanced thing to do. That is all I am saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:56 PM

The trouble with the idea that Scotland voted Remain because it has less immigrants doesn't completely hold up. Yes Scotland has less immigrants per head of population than England has - but it has more than Wales has and Scotland voted Remain whilst Wales voted Leave. The UK as a whole has 8.4% of the usual residents who are non-British nationals. England has 9%; Wales has 3.9% and Scotland has 5.4%. So if the reason is just based on how many immigrants you have why did Wales not vote Remain? And why did London vote Remain whilst some areas of England with far fewer immigrants vote Leave.

Surely what also affects things is the rhetoric and language of your politicians plus how strong the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP were in the area. Basically in Scotland all the main parties were actively and officially pro-EU apart from the Tories who were not allowed to take an offical party line although the leadership of the Tory party in Scotland was pro-EU. The only comparable figure to a Boris or Farage within Scotland was Cockburn and he is looked on as a joke and a bit of a pariah. Basically whatever individuals on here think about the Brexit issue itself- the Scottish based politicians were giving the message that it was a positive thing to stay in the EU. On a wider UK stage though it was different. Leavers were vocal whilst the leadership of Labour seemed apathetic and the message from number 10 was "yes it is not great being in the EU, but I suppose we'd better stay in, and maybe we could make it a wee bit better". The only strong support was from the Lib Dems who were sidelined through their fall from favour. That has bound to have had an effect too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:33 AM

At the moment the SNP are riding a wave in Scotland, they have a huge electoral base.

I believe, through discussion with other nationalists, that many voted to remain simply because it was Party Policy.
I am a member, but there are a few of the policies advanced by my party with which I quite strongly disagree, but I vote SNP for independence and when that is achieved, then is the time to sort out the detail.
Although Wales has a smaller number of immigrants from within the EU they are concentrated in smaller areas where the detrimental effects on public services have become more apparent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:38 AM

"Plus of course it would include the British nationalism displayed by many in the No campaign itself."

It's quite interesting how the Scot nats distance themselves from the Brit nats. Scottish nationalism has (at least in the mind of it's supporters) elevated itself to a level of political sophistication and is possessed of a far more noble spirit of civic inclusivity than could ever be south of the border. It distances itself from it's willing participation in Empire and the subsequent consequences of it's actions as part of the union; a rewriting of history designed to reinforce the self-image of Scots as an oppressed people, never part of the machine of oppression. Scotland has been failed by Westminster for sure, but then so has any part of the UK outside the M25. Independence can be achieved without the sort of sneering we see from nats of all nations on these islands.

This distortion of history and air of superiority is exactly what nationalism is about, and is startlingly similar in some respects to Brit nationalism. Whilst the question of sovereignty is a legitimate one (perhaps the only one in the case of leaving the EU), the Scots are happy to cede theirs to Brussels rather than Westminster. This is all well and good (and were I a Scot I would vote for independence and staying in the EU), but it makes a mockery of Scottish self-determination in every aspect of their life as the point of being in the EU is decisions are made collectively for the good of the whole and these decisions will at some point run counter to the wishes or even best interests of some of the states involved.

Scottish nationalism is far more about standing under the Saltire flicking the V's to Westminster as Brexit is Little Englanders doing the same under the butcher's apron to Brussels than it is about sovereignty or the right to self-determination.

Nationalism is about divisions, about the reverting of states from trading blocks and social progression to isolationism and wall-building. It is retrogressive and I'd like to think that one day a world without nationalism will exist, and people can get on with working out how to live together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM

"where the detrimental effects on public services"
You can repeat this racist misinformation as often as you want Ake, but there are no proven "detrimental effects by immigrants - on the contrary - our hospital services would be in dire trouble without immigrant doctors and nurses, our trains and buses would never have got onto the roads in the needed numbers.....
Immigrants came to Britain, worked hard and became invaluable members of the communities they formed and joined.   
Over the three decades I lived in London they revolutionised shopping - prior to the end of the sixties, you could't buy a bottle of milk after six o'clock on the Fulham Road or Camden High Street - the Asian corner shops put an end to that.
Apart from the cultural value of meeting strangers from foreign parts, immigration has proved a massive benefit to Britain.
"Detrimental effects??
Such stuff are the BNP and Ukip made of.
You really need to peep out of your Xenophobic bunker occasionally and visit the real world sometime.
Arguments like yours are the problem-causers, not your victims.
Your persistence in repeating untruths is little short of hate-speech - and inhuman, with it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM

Some facts you might care to examine Ake – or not, as the case may be!
Jim Carroll

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/18/mass-eu-migration-into-britain-is-actually-good-news-for-uk-economy

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/government-loses-battle-trigger-article-50-without-consulting-parliament

https://fullfact.org/immigration/migration-and-welfare-benefits/

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:22 PM

"indigenous Scots"

What indigenous Scots would those be, Ake? Would that be the Irish bastards who invaded Hibernia over the course of the 6th & 7th centuries, culminating in a massacre (allegedly) of the INDIGENOUS poor little Pictses, masterminded by that prize bastard Kenneth mac Alpin (allegedly)?

Just akin', I mean *cough* askin'... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:05 PM

Bet you were just akin to ask that you old devil, but as I wasn't around at the time of the Picsees or Colkitto Mc Donald or the Vikings.....I cant answer.
But these folks were not economic migrants they were warriors and explorers, the world was their oyster.

Times and Places Raedwulf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:10 PM

I think about three generations today would produce an "indigenous Scot".....Unless you started off English of course!!

Ten generations might about nail that. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:14 PM

Only ten! My, but you're feelin' ginrous tanite. Can ah borra ten-pince, da'? :p


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM

Twa shillin's!!!   awa an' dinnae be daft lad. :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:04 PM

Tight-fisted ol' bastard, so yez iz! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:17 PM

Before this thread rides off into the sunset, can I just mention what I believe to be a positive form of nationalism.
This year has marked the centenary of The Easter Rising in Ireland – it has been truly magnificent.
There have been no displays of jingoism or hatred for the former Empire – certainly not in my experience.
Certainly, there has been pride in being the first country to challenge the might of the most powerful Empire in the world and start the dominoes tumbling, but this has been carried out intelligently and sensitively, with as much self examination and criticism as it has in attacking the 8 centuries of foreign influence.   
The celebration has included a landslide of fresh information in the form of literature and film – a truly healthy and open debate of a momentous event in Irish History.
I've been interested in the subject for most of my life, but I've learned more on the subject in the last 10 months than I have over half a century – and it's only jus begun.
From now to 2022, we'll be hearing about The War of Independence, right up to the signing of the Treaty.
Don't know where we are going to find room on our bookshelves!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

Delighted to hear it, Jim. I've already said my piece on patriotism. Nothing wrong with being patriotic, and jolly good luck to Ireland (as if you need it with all those leprechauns, sheil... no wait, that's Australia... shillelaghs, clovers & whatnot!).

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:17 PM

"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism.... By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, _not_ for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
-- George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism" (1945)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 09:28 PM

An example of what Jim said there was the 72c stamps issued as part of the commemoration series. It shows a picture of Constable James O'Brien of The Royal Irish Constabulary, the first man killed in the Easter Rising, and of Sean Connolly of the Citizens' Army, who shot him, and who was himself killed laterh the same day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:54 AM

Orwell's piece ignores something basic that he ironically, witnessed first hand - by all reports, while he was in the right place at the right time, he wasn't particularly interested in gathering the full picture; my father once commented on his reputation for remoteness among the volunteers during the Spanish Civil War.
In times of national struggle, nationalism can play a positive, even essential part - India, Spain and Ireland are prime examples.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

Words again, Jim. What you describe is, to me, patriotism. Not nationalism. Being proud of... Orwell may well have been a bit one-eyed, but the quote that Joe offered (the pun is accidental!) is only my earlier words in an earlier form (no, I've never seen them before).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:53 AM

"Not nationalism."
It was about building a new independent country - pride came later.
All a matter of semantics, I suppose.
It's always seemed to me that Nationalism works in times of political struggle - it's peacetime nationalism that causes the problems.
Irish nationalism is by definition, based on a demand for national independence from foreign influence - I don't have a problem with that - though, as an Internationalist I would much prefer it if all national borders disappeared tomorrow - not in my lifetime unfortunately.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 12:10 PM

Not in any of our lifetimes, I'm afraid. And this is very definitely a patriot talking (typing). But then, I suppose, that is also central to my view of patriotism - there's no room for hatred.

As an Englishman, of course I hate the Scots & the Welsh! ;-) But in a friendly way. If you see what I mean. I know there are celts who genuinely hate the English. And equally stupid English who hate... whatever. But that's Nationalism, not Patriotism.

I know about a lot of the shit stuff that England, Britain, & Europe have done down the centuries (most of it to each other!). I remain proud of the good things that England, Britain, Europe have done, believing that we were trying to make the world a better place. Why should I hate anyone? I don't think that being English, British, European, makes me better than anyone else. Just different. But Nationalism? Oh dear... :-/ If you see what I mean...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:16 PM

Just posted this on another thread. Equally apt here. I am sure you will recognise the artists and enjoy it anyway :-)

Traitor's Love


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:20 PM

Based on a conversation on Mudcat apparently! But I have not checked with George so I cannot confirm that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM

If the Scottish National Party was to change it's name to the Scottish Patriot Party, I'd be deeply suspicious that it meant it was turning nasty.

It's just words, and words change meaning. Republican means something rather different in Ireland and the USA. Liberal Democrat means something different in England and Russia. There are places where "Patriot" means racist bigot.


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