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BS: Demise of the Labour Party

Bonzo3legs 26 Jun 16 - 01:21 PM
Greg F. 26 Jun 16 - 01:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 16 - 01:37 PM
Greg F. 26 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jun 16 - 03:29 PM
keberoxu 26 Jun 16 - 04:06 PM
akenaton 26 Jun 16 - 04:33 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Jun 16 - 04:47 PM
The Sandman 26 Jun 16 - 06:40 PM
bobad 26 Jun 16 - 06:52 PM
Greg F. 26 Jun 16 - 07:30 PM
theleveller 27 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM
akenaton 27 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM
theleveller 27 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM
Stanron 27 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM
Les in Chorlton 27 Jun 16 - 03:01 PM
TheSnail 27 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 16 - 04:09 PM
Ed. 27 Jun 16 - 04:23 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 16 - 04:31 PM
theleveller 27 Jun 16 - 04:49 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 16 - 04:56 PM
DMcG 27 Jun 16 - 05:03 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jun 16 - 05:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jun 16 - 05:31 PM
akenaton 27 Jun 16 - 06:59 PM
keberoxu 27 Jun 16 - 07:18 PM
theleveller 28 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Jun 16 - 06:00 AM
ced2 28 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM
bobad 28 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM
Les in Chorlton 28 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM
DMcG 28 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM
Brian May 28 Jun 16 - 10:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 10:56 AM
Penny S. 28 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 02:21 PM
ripov 28 Jun 16 - 07:54 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 16 - 01:44 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 16 - 02:15 AM
akenaton 29 Jun 16 - 02:47 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 16 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
Raggytash 29 Jun 16 - 06:06 AM
Les in Chorlton 29 Jun 16 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 16 - 07:34 AM
Raggytash 29 Jun 16 - 07:42 AM
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Subject: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 01:21 PM

Sacked (joke) - Hilary Benn, shadow foreign secretary

Resigned - Lord Falconer, shadow justice secretary

Resigned - Heidi Alexander, shadow health secretary

Resigned - Lucy Powell, shadow education secretary

Resigned - Vernon Coaker, shadow Northern Ireland secretary

Resigned - Ian Murray, shadow Scottish secretary - and Labour's only MP in Scotland

Resigned - Kerry McCarthy, shadow environment secretary

Resigned - Seema Malhotra, shadow chief secretary to the Treasury

Resigned - Lillian Greenwood, shadow transport secretary

Resigned - Gloria de Piero, shadow minister for young people and voter registration


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 01:28 PM

Demise? More like a lynching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 01:37 PM

Interesting times - since the referendum, smug know all opinionated political pundits on the telly news
are predicting both the demise of the tory party and Labour.....????

Comes after the oddest of cross party allegiances during the "Let's eff up the future of UK & Europe" referendum... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM

Good old false class consciousness rides again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:29 PM

I wouldn't want to be in Abbott shagger's shoes right now!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:06 PM

I feel a song coming on. Specifically, a musical revue number from Flanders & Swann. No, it isn't one of their little animal songs for Ian Wallace to sing, and it isn't from At the Drop of a Hat. But it is about how the Conservative and the Labour parties have rather too much in common so as to distinguish between them. Of course this was back in 1960....will have to start a music thread upstairs in order to add the lyrics to "Bi-Party Line."


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:33 PM

Well I did warn of this months ago......most of the Parliamentary Labour Party are career politicians who have only one interest ...furthering their worthless careers.
They are in reality "centre liberals"   the Labour Party is not a comfortable place for them to prosper, as it is unlikely to be re-elected for a number of years and ever since the election of Mr Corbyn, they have been sharpening their knives.

Ironic that they try to blame Mr Corbyn for the defeat of the remain campaign, a man who for his whole political life has been opposed to the charade and who was trapped into giving tacit support to save his Party.

I hope Mr Corbyn hangs on and is supported by clear thinking people in the community.....he may have to lead a minority party but at least it will be the authentic voice of democratic Socialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:47 PM

Chris Bryant resigns as shadow Commons leader - how many is that now, I don't do counting above 10 on a Sunday!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:40 PM

they should feck off and form a new party and enter the political wilderness like david owen, what happened to the SDP, THEY WERE NOTHING MORE THAN A FART IN A CIRCUS


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:52 PM

Once they turf Corbyn and the anti-semites it stands a chance of becoming respectable and relevant once again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 07:30 PM

Only if they can enlist a large cadre of anti-BooBads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM

Rebirth of the Labour Party, more like. Perfect opportunity to cleanse the New Labour augean stables so that Jeremy can get on with fronting a proper opposition whilst preparing to become PM at the next election. Especially as the Tory Party is in complete and utter meltdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM

From Richard Seymour. Whole article
HERE



But what is being missed in all of this frenzy, what none of Corbyn's oblocutors want to admit, is that Corbyn is not the cause of the party's crisis, but an answer to it. Labour is in dire straits, and would be whoever was in the leadership. In the wake of New Labour, the party's membership had fallen to its lowest level since 1918, its vote share to its lowest level since 1983. Formerly mountainous majorities had been levelled, great swathes of former 'heartlands' had abandoned the party for the Liberals, the SNP, Plaid Cymru and even the Greens. There are deep sociological roots to this process, having to do with the decomposition of former big battalions of organised labour, the long-term shift in employment structures, and the atomisation of everyday life.

The idea that the party's problems can be blamed on one leader, one set of policies, or one campaign, is absurd. Nonetheless, if the back bench belligerents do want to look for a leadership and a set of policies that coincided with a dramatic, precipitous collapse in Labour's social base, they need only look to the era of New Labour whose politics they seem so eager to return to. Corbyn's leadership is precisely an attempt to achieve what Milibands couldn't, reverse those trends, rebuild the membership, reconstitute the core vote, anchor the party in the unions and social movements, and rescue a dying social democracy from the Blairite legacy.

The odds against success for Corbyn have always been steep, and not only due to the sullen campaign waged against him, first from the back benches and now openly from within his shadow cabinet. Labour is suffering from the same dilemma as other social democratic parties across Europe. The one distinctive social democratic policy mix that has ever enjoyed success, the postwar compromise, depended on unprecedented growth rates and a business class willing to cooperate in corporatist bargaining and state coordination — conditions which are unlikely to return. In this light, Corbyn's attempt to develop an anti-austerity solution that is intellectually coherent, electorally viable and can actually be implemented once in office, is an incredibly tall order. But the alternative, of accepting the neoliberal settlement and modulating the priorities within that framework, has been tried and led to disaster.

What the coup-mongers, in refusing to let Corbyn even try, are demonstrating is that the idea of a federal party of labour, representing all of its sections in their diversity, may have seen its day. It is increasingly implausible that the Labour Right is willing to exist in a party led from the Left. But if that is the case, the SDP option may be their only honourable way out. The only reason they haven't taken it, one suspects, is precisely because as both former SDP MP Polly Toynbee and the Blairite journalist Jon Rentoul agree, the conditions for a successful split simply don't exist. So, they are doing the only thing they can. Without a solution, without a plan, without even a plausible leadership candidate, they are embarking on a campaign of sabotage to bring the party to its knees. And thus, they hope the party will return, duly chastened, to its traditional owners. They want their party back, in other words, and they'll inflict any cost to get it.

More in #EU Referendum #labour #Brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

Not exactly what I'd call a demise:

Labour ahead of Tories


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM

My first thought was 'Are these the same polls that predicted a Labour win last year and a Remain win last week?' And then I saw the date.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 03:01 PM

I have been a member of the Labour Party for around 40 years - following the ups and downs and a wide range of political comment on all sorts of media. I am staggered at the quality, with a few exceptions, of the comment on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM

After a long absence, the election of Jeremy Corbyn gave me a party I coould join and vote for again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 04:09 PM

Agreed wholeheartedly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 04:23 PM

Agreed wholeheartedly

It might be helpful, Steve, if you mentioned who or what you agree with...


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 04:31 PM

Very likely, the post preceeding his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 04:49 PM

Over 10,000 people at a rally in Parliament Square in support of Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 04:56 PM

Correct. On occasion, Ed, I can be a man of few words. Especially when I see myself having to agree with Snail. 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 05:03 PM

Jeremy has a problem that I can't see an easy way around. He always responds to questions with considered and nuanced answers. That's the best thing to do in a rational world, but it is awful television/media. So they extract a few words, and leave out all the complexity. He could of course give them what they want, but only by omitting the thought and saying something he knows wouldn't work because it is too simple. How this circle is squared is a difficult problem. And actually it is a problem for all the other labour MPs, since he won't give the soundbite policies for them to parrot: they are obliged to give considered answers as well, which is not how they are used to working


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 05:27 PM

Corbyn is finished, 34 resignations is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 05:31 PM

He's been too lenient and patient with flagrant disloyalty for far too long..

Time for a good clear out....


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 06:59 PM

As I have said many times, while we are content to live under a "liberal" corporate capitalist economic system, socialist must concentrate on being a means of opposition.
The UK Labour Party has been hijacked by career politicians who yearn for political power and the benefits that power brings(Blair being an excellent role model).....At least two thirds of the parliamentary party are disgusting hypocrites, they have been engaged in the removal of socialism for over forty years, culminating in the present coup against a proper socialist leader.
When Jeremy was elected I remarked that the true left must be patient, his job was to educate, not win elections. It will take several generations to give to the people some understanding of what socialism means and to explain that many of the thing that we have been encouraged to achieve are not good for us....or society.

The careerists have no time to wait and basically no inclination to educate on a subject which they hold in contempt.

They are the worst, most dangerous form of scum.......more dangerous to socialist ideas than even the conservatives who at the very least believe and promote their agenda of financial aspiration as a political driving force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 07:18 PM

As threatened, "Bi-Party Line" has its own Add Lyrics thread upstairs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM

The Tories, meanwhile, are in great shape ;). Don't see too many people out on the streets begging Cameron to stay and Boris doesn't look too happy about taking up the poison chalice of PM because he knows that, whatever happens, he's stuffed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:00 AM

1. "When Jeremy was elected I remarked that the true left must be patient, his job was to educate, not win elections.

2. It will take several generations to give to the people some understanding of what socialism means and

3. to explain that many of the thing that we have been encouraged to achieve are not good for us....or society."

1. That's Ok then, we don't have to win elections we leave that to the tories.
2. "several generations" - how many years then? 10, 20 30?
3. So, all we need is some people to explain to the people of the UK why many of them are wrong - and then they will all vote Labour again.

Is that right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: ced2
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM

Why would Jeremy Corbyn or any other decent left member of the labour party or socialist campaign whole heartedly for remaining in the EU?

At best the reaction to the question of "should we stay or should we go" is a luke warm yes to remaining. It was therefore of no surprise to hear Jeremy Corbyn, when pushed, to say that on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being to leave & 10 overwhelming support) he was about 7 for remaining a member, (about one point up from my own position).

The EU has never been a body that supports a democratic internationalist socialist outlook or programme. It was and remains at heart a club for the free movement of capital and the only reason for the free movement of labour was that that was necessary of the free movement of capital.

It is not democratic, and the actions of Blair, Mandelson, et al made this even worse for the British Electorate by introducing the "list" system for candidates.

They turned what were already too large constituencies into even larger ones where local labour party members had no say in selection. Acceptance onto the list, and then crucially position on the list, being determined by the party machine. The most essential qualification being that of who was the most sebaceous sycophant with the longest brown nose. It was designed to get ride of the "awkward squad" on labour MEPs, ensuring that those who remained were always "on message". In so doing they also wrecked an already weak link between MEPs in their electorate. (The Euro constituency where I live covers most of Yorkshire and the Humber.)

The E U was for a small number of people the greatest gravy train in the world. It was over bureaucratic and took far too much power to itself.

However, it was probably large enough to stand up against some of the massive international corporations that now dominate international trade, exploiting cheap labour in one country and dodging paying their taxes in another. It has put the brakes on some of the worst right wing excesses of various governments and has helped to raise a number of social standards.

It is absolutely shameful that many labour MPs have fallen into the trap laid by the Tories who wanted to stay and their friends in the media of laying blame at the door of others. They may well live to regret this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM

"The writing on the wall is eight metres high and if he can't see it, he needs to go to Specsavers," said one MP. "This is a battle for the soul of the Labour Party."


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

Jeremy declined to say which way he voted. Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

"The EU has never been a body that supports a democratic internationalist socialist outlook or programme"

Tough question, but who ever said it was?

The central problem for JC was Remain was Labour Party Policy. He didn't seem too keen to support it did he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM

eight metres high ...???

hold on there... I might have voted "remain" as a Labour Party endorsed pragmatic compromise..

.. But I'm British.. and we still do yards, feet and inches here....!!!!!! 😜

Still, as the son of an unskilled factory machinist trade union shop steward,
I welcome a battle to regain & revitalise the soul of the Labour Party....


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM

"we still do yards, feet and inches here"

I suggested we should be more wholehearted. Let's get rid of all these calorie-counting diets. Foot-pounds, that's what we need!


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Brian May
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:39 AM

"He's been too lenient and patient with flagrant disloyalty for far too long..

Time for a good clear out...."

Well, he's been shown the same kind of loyalty he gave to HIS party leaders throughout the years. His own performance has been no better and often worse than those HE didn't support.

He displays charisma-free leadership qualities and for me, will always be the man who, throughout the years has called known terrorists his friends.

His business as normal approach is not acceptable as a party leader (in name not action in his case).

Karma is such a bitch . . .

BTW: The other lot are no better. Something happens and the political parties go into a feeding frenzy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:56 AM

Personally, I'm surprised Corbyn has survived as leader this long,
We all knew from day one, the plotters and backstabbers would be out to usurp him.

I also doubt he will ever lead Labour into a general election, let alone be Prime Minister.

But I think he is what the party needs as an interim force for positive re-evaluation of purpose and direction.

Plus losing some of the moribund careerists at the top of the party,
as painful as it may be, will be for the good in the long run.

How tragic it was to lose Jo Cox at a time when new blood of her calibre is essential for Labour's continued existence.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM

I keep feeling that on Friday morning I woke up down the other trouser leg of the universe. And I'm stuck here till I die, with a shattered Labour party and the brown shorts (I think I'll stick with that) re-enacting Kristallnacht on the streets of Lewisham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

Penny - glad you mentioned that..

Couple of days ago I was also working on a post drawing parallels with "Kristallnacht" and "Beer Hall Putsch",
but mudcat was too erratic, and I was too tired to be bothered checking historic facts..
so I gave up and had a 😴 on the sofa...


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:21 PM

.. also remembering back to the 80s when yuppie PR gurus started imposing a culture of suits and ties on the Labour Party..

well.. f@ck 'em..!!!

So refreshing to see the recent mass influx of youth members who dress and talk exactly how they want to.... 😎


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: ripov
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:54 PM

probably I shall dip in and then disappear - life givs me those options and bugger all else.
1. Bonzo refers to 34 resignations - good, the party is cleansing itself. Jeremy doesn't even have to do anything.
2. Why do certain people complain about jeremy not being prime minister material, when no-one with any sense would put the existing bunch of blairites in the position of needing a prime minister anyway?
3. Why has he started ironing his shirts? Is that the start of the rot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:44 AM

Well so far I've heard Angela Eagle, Tom Watson and Yvette Cooper mentioned as potential replacements. Is there anyone here who would seriously try to tell me that any of those three would stand a better chance of winning the next election than Jeremy Corbyn?


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 02:15 AM

"Is there anyone here who would seriously try to tell me that any of those three would stand a better chance of winning the next election than Jeremy Corbyn?"

Yes - Me.

Your three potential candidates all stand a better chance of winning the next election purely by dint of the fact that none of them is Jeremy Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 02:47 AM

Of course Teribus is correct, but what is the point of Socialists returning another "Blairite" government.

Probably the odious Benn has the best "chance" of forming a Quisling government, but it would only last till the money ran out and the Tories took over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:00 AM

There was an interesting comment from one of the momentum supporters yesterday. He said there was no cult of Jeremy but there is a cult for what he stands for. You may or may not agree that what he stands for is desirable, but that would be to miss the point. Any leader who rejects that position will not have their support. And also anyone who has that stance but "is more of a leader" than Jeremy would get it.

Until that person arrives, they will stick with Jeremy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

Why does Momentum and SWP need the Labour party?
Because they are unelectable and need it as a vehicle and a disguise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 06:06 AM

Cor ............. are there reds under the beds????


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 06:49 AM

Keith is spot on. You only have to look at posters and stuff at Labour Party events to see that the SWP (3 men + a dog) supplies these posters and placards via some secret deal with print unions.

Although I am more convinced by the rumour that the SWP is a recipient of Heritage Lottery Funding, The National Trust and the selling of very small parts of Trotsky's body.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:34 AM

Most of the placards at the Corbyn rally outside Westminster the other night were SWP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:42 AM

Cor ................ those Bolsheviks are everywhere! Help! Help! panic everyone !!

It said on the Brexit battlebus that the money saved by leaving the EU would be used for the NHS doesn't mean it's going to happen though, does it.


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