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BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

SPB-Cooperator 12 Sep 16 - 03:31 AM
Teribus 11 Sep 16 - 07:14 PM
Stanron 11 Sep 16 - 04:48 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Sep 16 - 03:52 PM
Stu 11 Sep 16 - 11:05 AM
DMcG 11 Sep 16 - 10:57 AM
Stanron 11 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Sep 16 - 08:48 AM
The Sandman 11 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM
akenaton 11 Sep 16 - 07:55 AM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Sep 16 - 05:02 AM
Stu 11 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM
DMcG 11 Sep 16 - 03:29 AM
Teribus 11 Sep 16 - 01:58 AM
Greg F. 10 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM
akenaton 10 Sep 16 - 06:22 PM
DMcG 10 Sep 16 - 11:50 AM
Stu 10 Sep 16 - 11:44 AM
Greg F. 10 Sep 16 - 09:48 AM
SPB-Cooperator 10 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM
akenaton 10 Sep 16 - 03:26 AM
akenaton 10 Sep 16 - 03:23 AM
DMcG 10 Sep 16 - 02:34 AM
Greg F. 09 Sep 16 - 12:34 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 16 - 12:03 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Sep 16 - 10:32 AM
Stu 08 Sep 16 - 10:15 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 10:02 AM
Stanron 08 Sep 16 - 09:13 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 09:11 AM
Greg F. 08 Sep 16 - 08:35 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 08:15 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 05:36 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 04:42 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 16 - 04:34 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM
Teribus 08 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 11:27 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Sep 16 - 09:56 AM
Teribus 07 Sep 16 - 08:58 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Sep 16 - 07:55 AM
JHW 07 Sep 16 - 05:47 AM
peregrina 07 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM
Stu 07 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM
Teribus 07 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 12:24 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM
Teribus 06 Sep 16 - 11:45 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 10:23 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 10:11 AM
Teribus 06 Sep 16 - 09:50 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM
Teribus 06 Sep 16 - 05:50 AM
Raggytash 06 Sep 16 - 05:31 AM
Stu 06 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 16 - 04:30 AM
Teribus 06 Sep 16 - 04:02 AM
Stu 06 Sep 16 - 04:01 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 06:18 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 05:24 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM
akenaton 05 Sep 16 - 12:47 PM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Sep 16 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM
Teribus 05 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM
Stu 05 Sep 16 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM
Stu 05 Sep 16 - 10:12 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Sep 16 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 05:21 AM
Teribus 05 Sep 16 - 05:10 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM
Teribus 05 Sep 16 - 01:22 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 PM
Teribus 04 Sep 16 - 06:21 PM
Greg F. 04 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 05:19 PM
Teribus 04 Sep 16 - 05:15 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 03:40 PM
Teribus 04 Sep 16 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Sep 16 - 11:33 AM
Stanron 04 Sep 16 - 11:28 AM
Greg F. 04 Sep 16 - 11:03 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Sep 16 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 08:19 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM
Stu 04 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 06:50 AM
Teribus 04 Sep 16 - 06:49 AM
Iains 04 Sep 16 - 06:41 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 06:22 AM
Stanron 04 Sep 16 - 05:58 AM
JHW 04 Sep 16 - 05:58 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 16 - 05:39 AM
Stanron 04 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM
Stu 04 Sep 16 - 04:35 AM
Teribus 04 Sep 16 - 04:10 AM
Stu 03 Sep 16 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 06:40 AM
Teribus 03 Sep 16 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM
Teribus 03 Sep 16 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 16 - 03:49 AM
Raggytash 03 Sep 16 - 03:07 AM
Teribus 03 Sep 16 - 02:13 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 07:14 PM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 06:38 PM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 06:32 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 06:08 PM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 05:51 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 16 - 05:13 PM
akenaton 02 Sep 16 - 04:47 PM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 16 - 03:23 PM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 16 - 03:02 PM
MikeL2 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM
Stanron 02 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 12:26 PM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 16 - 11:35 AM
Stu 02 Sep 16 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 10:25 AM
Rapparee 02 Sep 16 - 09:21 AM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 16 - 09:19 AM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 16 - 09:14 AM
Raggytash 02 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 09:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 05:36 AM
Stu 02 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM
Raggytash 02 Sep 16 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 16 - 03:06 AM
akenaton 02 Sep 16 - 02:49 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 02:12 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM
Nigel Parsons 25 Jul 16 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 16 - 03:42 AM
Raggytash 24 Jul 16 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jul 16 - 02:58 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jul 16 - 02:42 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 01:55 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jul 16 - 12:45 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 16 - 12:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 12:57 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 12:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 12:25 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 16 - 12:15 PM
Greg F. 22 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 16 - 11:16 AM
Greg F. 22 Jul 16 - 11:03 AM
bobad 22 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 10:16 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 09:41 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 09:09 AM
Greg F. 22 Jul 16 - 09:09 AM
Stu 22 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM
bobad 22 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 07:33 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM
Teribus 22 Jul 16 - 06:34 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM
Stu 22 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM
Teribus 22 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM
Teribus 22 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM
Stu 22 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM
akenaton 22 Jul 16 - 03:04 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 16 - 02:34 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM
Raggytash 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 PM
akenaton 21 Jul 16 - 04:50 PM
Greg F. 21 Jul 16 - 04:04 PM
akenaton 21 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM
akenaton 21 Jul 16 - 03:40 PM
Greg F. 21 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM
Raggytash 21 Jul 16 - 12:07 PM
Stu 21 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 16 - 11:04 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM
Raggytash 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM
Stu 21 Jul 16 - 09:39 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 16 - 08:58 AM
Stu 21 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM
Greg F. 21 Jul 16 - 08:26 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 07:49 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM
Stu 21 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM
Raggytash 21 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 05:04 AM
Stu 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM
Raggytash 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM
Teribus 21 Jul 16 - 01:54 AM
Raggytash 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM
Teribus 20 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 16 - 12:39 PM
Teribus 20 Jul 16 - 12:09 PM
Raggytash 20 Jul 16 - 11:32 AM
Raggytash 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM
Teribus 19 Jul 16 - 06:51 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 16 - 01:16 PM
Stu 19 Jul 16 - 08:09 AM
Teribus 19 Jul 16 - 07:10 AM
Stu 19 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Jul 16 - 04:00 AM
The Sandman 19 Jul 16 - 02:39 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM
Raggytash 18 Jul 16 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM
Teribus 18 Jul 16 - 01:24 PM
akenaton 18 Jul 16 - 12:54 PM
Stu 18 Jul 16 - 12:14 PM
Greg F. 18 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 16 - 10:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM
Raggytash 18 Jul 16 - 10:03 AM
Teribus 18 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM
Greg F. 18 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM
Teribus 18 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM
akenaton 18 Jul 16 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 16 - 08:32 AM
akenaton 18 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 16 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM
akenaton 17 Jul 16 - 05:18 PM
Stu 17 Jul 16 - 02:29 PM
Raggytash 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM
akenaton 17 Jul 16 - 02:04 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 16 - 01:15 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM
SPB-Cooperator 17 Jul 16 - 12:55 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM
Raggytash 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM
Teribus 17 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM
Stu 17 Jul 16 - 06:58 AM
SPB-Cooperator 17 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 16 - 01:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jul 16 - 01:08 PM
EBarnacle 12 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 16 - 11:45 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM
Teribus 12 Jul 16 - 10:17 AM
Raggytash 12 Jul 16 - 07:32 AM
Teribus 12 Jul 16 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 16 - 03:52 AM
akenaton 12 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 16 - 08:47 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 16 - 06:19 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM
akenaton 11 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 16 - 02:31 PM
Raggytash 11 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 16 - 01:03 PM
Teribus 11 Jul 16 - 12:08 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM
Teribus 11 Jul 16 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 16 - 03:50 AM
Teribus 10 Jul 16 - 02:48 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 16 - 05:56 AM
Teribus 10 Jul 16 - 05:44 AM
Raggytash 10 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 16 - 04:13 AM
Teribus 10 Jul 16 - 03:48 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 16 - 07:20 PM
Teribus 09 Jul 16 - 05:09 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM
SPB-Cooperator 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM
EBarnacle 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Jul 16 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM
Teribus 09 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM
Donuel 09 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM
SPB-Cooperator 09 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM
Teribus 09 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM
DMcG 09 Jul 16 - 05:00 AM
Stu 09 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM
Donuel 08 Jul 16 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM
Donuel 08 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM
Greg F. 08 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM
Greg F. 08 Jul 16 - 08:44 AM
bobad 08 Jul 16 - 08:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM
Teribus 08 Jul 16 - 07:41 AM
Raggytash 08 Jul 16 - 06:30 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM
bobad 07 Jul 16 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM
Greg F. 07 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 07 Jul 16 - 02:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 16 - 02:18 PM
Teribus 07 Jul 16 - 01:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 16 - 12:33 PM
Teribus 07 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM
Greg F. 07 Jul 16 - 09:44 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 16 - 09:26 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 16 - 08:39 AM
Teribus 07 Jul 16 - 08:05 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 Jul 16 - 05:47 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM
Teribus 07 Jul 16 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 16 - 03:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 16 - 02:53 PM
Greg F. 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM
SPB-Cooperator 06 Jul 16 - 12:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 10:08 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 16 - 10:04 AM
akenaton 06 Jul 16 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM
Raggytash 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 08:10 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 07:51 AM
Raggytash 06 Jul 16 - 07:36 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 07:19 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM
Raggytash 06 Jul 16 - 06:32 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 06:20 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 06 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM
Raggytash 06 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 16 - 02:48 AM
Teribus 06 Jul 16 - 01:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jul 16 - 09:44 PM
Greg F. 05 Jul 16 - 09:19 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jul 16 - 08:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM
Stanron 05 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM
Raggytash 05 Jul 16 - 07:03 PM
Teribus 05 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM
Greg F. 05 Jul 16 - 05:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM
Teribus 05 Jul 16 - 03:57 PM
Stu 05 Jul 16 - 03:33 PM
Teribus 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM
Greg F. 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM
Teribus 05 Jul 16 - 02:16 PM
Raggytash 05 Jul 16 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM
Raggytash 05 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM
Teribus 05 Jul 16 - 10:54 AM
MikeL2 05 Jul 16 - 10:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM
Stu 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 16 - 02:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM
theleveller 04 Jul 16 - 12:32 PM
Nigel Parsons 04 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM
akenaton 03 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM
SPB-Cooperator 03 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 16 - 04:21 AM
Mr Red 03 Jul 16 - 03:25 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 16 - 02:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 02 Jul 16 - 01:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jul 16 - 01:26 PM
Greg F. 02 Jul 16 - 12:50 PM
SPB-Cooperator 01 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM
robomatic 01 Jul 16 - 04:11 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 16 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 16 - 10:12 AM
Greg F. 01 Jul 16 - 09:34 AM
SPB-Cooperator 01 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jul 16 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM
akenaton 01 Jul 16 - 03:34 AM
Greg F. 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 PM
akenaton 30 Jun 16 - 05:43 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 16 - 03:04 PM
EBarnacle 30 Jun 16 - 12:57 PM
robomatic 30 Jun 16 - 11:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM
Stu 30 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM
Greg F. 30 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM
akenaton 30 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM
akenaton 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 AM
Stu 30 Jun 16 - 07:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 30 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM
Stu 30 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 16 - 06:46 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 16 - 06:34 AM
SPB-Cooperator 30 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 16 - 02:32 AM
SPB-Cooperator 30 Jun 16 - 12:59 AM
Joe Offer 30 Jun 16 - 12:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 16 - 05:30 PM
Greg F. 29 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM
DMcG 29 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM
bobad 29 Jun 16 - 01:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 16 - 01:34 PM
Donuel 29 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM
bobad 29 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 16 - 11:25 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 16 - 10:59 AM
Greg F. 29 Jun 16 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM
Stu 29 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM
Howard Jones 29 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM
Stu 29 Jun 16 - 03:15 AM
akenaton 29 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 16 - 01:33 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 16 - 01:15 AM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM
Pete from seven stars link 28 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM
Greg F. 28 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM
DMcG 28 Jun 16 - 03:28 PM
akenaton 28 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM
peregrina 28 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM
Teribus 28 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 12:18 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM
Georgiansilver 28 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM
Penny S. 28 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM
Greg F. 28 Jun 16 - 10:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM
Raggytash 28 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM
Thompson 28 Jun 16 - 08:19 AM
akenaton 28 Jun 16 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM
Thompson 28 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM
Raggytash 28 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 AM
Thompson 28 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 05:44 AM
JHW 28 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 05:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 03:30 AM
Raggytash 28 Jun 16 - 02:02 AM
Stanron 28 Jun 16 - 01:22 AM
robomatic 27 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jun 16 - 08:33 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 16 - 08:05 PM
akenaton 27 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM
Stu 27 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM
DMcG 27 Jun 16 - 02:33 PM
robomatic 27 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 16 - 11:38 AM
Bugsy 26 Jun 16 - 09:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM
Teribus 26 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 06:12 PM
Teribus 26 Jun 16 - 05:13 PM
Thompson 26 Jun 16 - 04:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 16 - 02:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 16 - 02:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 02:24 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
Greg F. 26 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM
Raggytash 26 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM
Thompson 25 Jun 16 - 08:04 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 05:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 16 - 05:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 05:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 04:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM
akenaton 25 Jun 16 - 04:11 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 03:38 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM
Thompson 25 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 12:27 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 12:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM
gnu 25 Jun 16 - 10:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 05:43 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 01:28 AM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 09:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM
Donuel 24 Jun 16 - 08:16 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 16 - 08:11 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 03:31 AM

"In politics and economics, Black Wednesday is 16 September 1992, when the British Conservative government was forced to withdraw the pound sterling from the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) after it was unable to keep the pound above its agreed lower limit in the ERM. George Soros, the most high-profile of the currency market speculators, made over £1 billion[1] in profit by short selling sterling."

All tbe rest of us paid the price - unit trust ISAs halved in value - at least one pension fund provider went to the wall.

But you must be right because of your well researched, carefully crafted slogan with the supporting empirical evidence clearly shown


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 07:14 PM

Stanron - 11 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

You forget Stanron according to the "socialist" mantra - It is always someone else's fault - never their own


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 04:48 PM

I'm not sure that traders are in business to manipulate markets. My take on it is that traders are trading to make profits. Buy something, sell something and at the end of that you are a few currency units up. If you aren't what's the point of trading?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 03:52 PM

Bankers and traders are two different animals - bankers are in business to sell credit, traders are in business to manipulate markets, and if making short term gains is at the expense of damage to economies it is in their books, a price worth playing. And instability of markets yields the greatest profits.

Oh, I am not talking about libor fraud - I am talking about legitimate trading of commodities and currencies without any regulation around wider impact assessment.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 11:05 AM

From Amber Rudd this morning:

"I can't tell you which portion of which area of immigration we're actually going to drive down more than the other," she said. "Because we're going to be entering into a negotiation with the European Union."

""I think that work permits certainly has value. But as I said, we're not ruling anything out at the moment.""

Hmmm... so the negotiating position possibly includes free movement... or anything else for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 10:57 AM

""It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes."


Certainly the general population/oysters bear some of the blame for taking on loans they couldnt afford. But in the end it was the walrus-bankers who ate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

People who fool themselves do not always fool others. (And isn't that a two edged sword?)

"Could this be the end of Europe? who will benefit from that, Russia? "

There is a difference between Europe and the European Union. We leave an inefficient, corrupt and undemocratic political union, not the continent or the people.

"And commodity brokers, forex traders, etc who will be able to milk the resulting chaos and line their grubby pockets. Isn't there one particularly nasty grubby obnoxious commodity broker who is outspoken about not just exiting, but the breakup of the EU who would probably not hesitate to defecate on the 14 million people who were stupid enough to believe him if it proves to his advantage? "

(Pause to wipe the spittle from the screen)

If this hate for those in the money markets comes from the 2008 world wide crash it is misinformed. Trace it back. Banks went broke. Bankers around the world bought leveraged bad debt. Banks in America found they had lots of bad debt from failed mortgages and wanted to get out from under. Banks in America were forced to give mortgages to people with poor credit ratings. Politicians in America sought political kudos by making home ownership more available.

Every one blames bankers but in reality they were the victims caught in the middle. We all got in debt, mortgages, credit cards and loans etc. Why don't we blame ourselves? Nah, let's blame the bankers instead. Of course the politicians are squeaky clean.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 08:48 AM

And commodity brokers, forex traders, etc who will be able to milk the resulting chaos and line there grubby pockets. Isn't there one particularly nasty grubby obnoxious commodity broker who is outspoken about not just exiting, but the breakup of the EU who would probably not hesitate to defecate on the 14 million people who were stupid enough to believe him if it proves to his advantage?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

Could this be the end of Europe? who will benefit from that, Russia?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 07:55 AM

Dream on guys!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 05:02 AM

Neither was the poll tax negotiable - but after the riots it was withdrawn. Neither was the 1933 Enabling act in Germany negotiable, but this changed after a world war.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM

"That is non negotiable."

Negotiable is exactly what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 03:29 AM

You (and some others) may think that is non negotiable, ake, but we will have to see. I would not bet on it myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 01:58 AM

And again Greg yet another non-post.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM

and all that it entails

And what, precisely, does it entail???


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:22 PM

One thing and the most important thing that "Brexit" means, is an end to the "Free movement of labour" and all that it entails.

That is non negotiable.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 11:50 AM

Especially as it seems everything the leavers said was just a suggestion.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 11:44 AM

Thing is, we still don't know what Brexit actually means. The Brexiteers don't know themselves, and I'll bet there will be some unholy rows between them when we finally find out as they won't all be happy little leavers.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 09:48 AM

Ake, for that BS there is no RIGHT thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM

As individuals, we make choices to better our lives as and when our individual means allow us to do so, for example if we are on low pay we may live on tins of beans, but as our income improves, we might extend that to a sunday roast with all the trimmings. When GDP increases then we makes choices to use that as an opportunity to improve rahter than just sustain health services - bring new treatments on line which may otherwise be too expensive. Those who oppose this are probably those who wold prefer the health service to diminish or be fit for their own purposes to facilitate reduced taxation.

That is also the argument that justifies the basis that determines whether a state is a net contributor to the EU budget - in order to work towards improvements in lives of all Europeans. To oppose this means taking an 'only what I want and **** the rest attitude'. Ah, someone who is les astute may say - why are we not prioritising those in need in our own country. Well,, says the astute person - because those who are without in this country are so not because we are helping others, or because we are a poor country, but being without is due purely to domestic economic and social policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 03:26 AM

Sorry, wrong thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 03:23 AM

It seems that Mr Trump may be correct in his assessment of Mr Putin's leadership credentials, as the US have just announced that they are to share security and work with Russia to defeat ISIS.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 02:34 AM

To me, that last few posts are about presentation, rather than the underlying reality. I agree with Nigel to the extent that I don't think percentage of GDP is a particularly good way of deciding what your spend on the NHS should be. One reason is because if the GDP fell there should not be an automatic corresponding fall in the money going to the NHS. The one is a measure of how interested the world is in your product, the other a function of the population size and age distribution. I don't see an automatic link between those two. Indeed if the GDP fell but the NHS spending stayed constant then as a percentage of GDP we would appear to be spending more on the NHS even though in financial terms we were spending exactly the same.

On the other hand, if the country's GDP does rise so there is more money available to spend then it is certainly right to consider how much of that should go to the NHS, so as a broad brush I would expect a rising GDP to lead to a rising NHS spend, but not in any automatic fashion.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:34 PM

Hell, just let'em die, Steve, let 'em die and reduce the surplus population. After all, its The American Way!!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:03 PM

So you don't think that spending on health care is a high enough priority for us to maintain it in proportion to the growing wealth of the country?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:32 AM

In 2000, current spending on health care in the United Kingdom was 6.3 per cent of GDP, and the then Prime Minister Tony Blair committed his government to matching the average for health spending as a percentage of GDP in the 14 other countries of the European Union in 2000 (8.5 per cent) through increases in NHS spending.

Over the next few years spending on the NHS increased substantially, pushing total (public plus private) spending to 8.8 per cent of GDP by 2009. By then, however, the EU-14 spend (weighted for size of GDP and health spend, and minus the UK) had moved on to 10.1 per cent of GDP. Still, the gap between the UK and its European neighbours was closing.

Since then, however, the gap has started to widen (particularly against countries that weathered the global financial crisis better than the UK) and looks set to grow further. UK GDP is forecast to grow in real terms by around 15.2 per cent between 2014/15 and 2020/21. But on current plans UK public spending on the NHS will grow by much less: 5.2 per cent. This is equivalent to around £7 billion in real terms – increasing from £135 billion in 2014/15 to £142 billion in 2020/21. As a proportion of GDP it will fall to 6.6 per cent compared to 7.3 per cent in 2014/15. But, if spending kept pace with growth in the economy, by 2020/21 the UK NHS would be spending around £158 billion at today's prices – £16 billion more than planned.

Failing to increase the NHS budget in line with an increase in GDP is not reducing NHS funding. But that may be too simplistic a comment for some to understand that it reflects reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:15 AM

" The fact that immigration proved impossible to control while inside the EU I would have thought would have been obvious for reasons I have already given."

So you knew this, but Cameron didn't when he made the speech? So he's as much a bare-faced liar as his Bullingdon buddies. I can never understand why anyone would give these people and ounce of respect.


"Communism did though didn't it - rather spectacularly if I remember it."

Communism has never been practiced, what happened in the so-called communist countries was the establishment of totalitarian and brutal regimes. But then anyone who knows his Marx and Engels knows that, don't they?

It'll be interesting to see if the government finally bend over and let China do it's thing at Hinkley Point. Odd that so many yell on about taking control back whilst being happy to cede some of our own to one of the most brutal regimes on the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:02 AM

From the King's Fund, Jan 2016.
.
How does NHS spending compare with health spending internationally?

John Appleby
John Appleby
Chief Economist, Policy
20 January 2016
18 comments
In 2000, current spending on health care in the United Kingdom was 6.3 per cent of GDP, and the then Prime Minister Tony Blair committed his government to matching the average for health spending as a percentage of GDP in the 14 other countries of the European Union in 2000 (8.5 per cent) through increases in NHS spending.

Over the next few years spending on the NHS increased substantially, pushing total (public plus private) spending to 8.8 per cent of GDP by 2009. By then, however, the EU-14 spend (weighted for size of GDP and health spend, and minus the UK) had moved on to 10.1 per cent of GDP. Still, the gap between the UK and its European neighbours was closing.

Since then, however, the gap has started to widen (particularly against countries that weathered the global financial crisis better than the UK) and looks set to grow further. UK GDP is forecast to grow in real terms by around 15.2 per cent between 2014/15 and 2020/21. But on current plans UK public spending on the NHS will grow by much less: 5.2 per cent. This is equivalent to around £7 billion in real terms – increasing from £135 billion in 2014/15 to £142 billion in 2020/21. As a proportion of GDP it will fall to 6.6 per cent compared to 7.3 per cent in 2014/15. But, if spending kept pace with growth in the economy, by 2020/21 the UK NHS would be spending around £158 billion at today's prices – £16 billion more than planned.


Hey ho. What you get when you vote Tory. One thing you won't get is the PROMISED £350 million per week, promised by the brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:13 AM

Greg F. wrote: Sure as hell matters when funding cuts take money FROM it,tho - dunnit, T-zer?

'it' being the NHS I'd be interested to see specific, dated examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:11 AM

Teribus, the Labour Party is a basket case. Of course it is. I've never denied the serious internal problems. I will deny scurrilous and unwarranted attacks and lies, of course, such as the ones about "antisemitism," generally led by a right-wing press and the pro-Israeli regime lobby. As for the NHS, I can't remember ever having got into a big debate about it, frankly. Do try to not make things up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:35 AM

Doesn't matter how much money gets thrown at it

Sure as hell matters when funding cuts take money FROM it,tho - dunnit, T-zer?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:15 AM

"It's about time you tried to honestly confront the wrongs of today"

Yes I think you should Shaw:

You are in complete denial that Labour have serious internal problems {By the way how many CLPs are still under suspension? - Can they hold meetings in Wallasey yet?}

You are in complete denial that the NHS is in trouble and has been for decades. Doesn't matter how much money gets thrown at it, it just seems to get worse while those responsible for reforms and administration just seem to get richer.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM

Stop diverting away from the issue. I have told you'd nauseam that I hold no candle for the New Labour scumbags (largely because they followed almost the exact same political path as your hero Thatcher - strange that you don't approve, really). The point you're too embarrassed to address is that the right in this country routinely use immigration as their vote-catching trump card. Racism and xenophobia dressed up in the obligatory politically-correct language of the day. It's about time you tried to honestly confront the wrongs of today instead of scurrying around constantly to find someone else who was just as bad or worse. In fact, it's very noticeable that that has become your modus operandi.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 05:36 AM

That's right Shaw, Labour promised more doctors and more nurses for the NHS in the term of their first Parliament. There was only one way they could do that - by "poaching" doctors and nurses from elsewhere, thereby reducing medical cover from elsewhere.

Pete St. John's song "Rare Ould Times" has the following verse:

"And I courted Peggy Dignam, as pretty as you please
A rogue and child of Mary, from the rebel Liberties
I lost her to a student chap, with skin as black as coal
When he took her off to Birmingham, she took away my soul"


Any idea what that was about?

When Maggie stopped offering free university places in the UK for Commonwealth Students, Sean MacBride offered free places to medical students from Ghana in Trinity College Dublin to embarrass Thatcher, the UK and the Tories. When these Students qualified they realised that their qualifications would allow them to practice medicine in the UK - every single one of them lifted and shifted to work in the UK - not one newly qualified doctor went back to provide medical cover back in Ghana.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:42 AM

Anyway, what mess? I'm going to see my Czech dentist Hannah next week, the finest dentist I've ever had. Until she and several other dentists from the EU founded their practice a few years ago we couldn't get on an NHS list within fifty miles of here. Think I'll tell her what a right bloody mess she's got the country into.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:34 AM

Yes it's electioneering, but you can still play the race card. Right-wing parties in this country routinely appeal to the basest instincts of the electorate by making a big issue out of immigration. We are being swamped, taken over, acquiring ghettoes and no-go areas, having wages driven down, having our jobs taken off us, allowing them to put pressure on housing and to come here to live on benefits, to sexually abuse our children, hide behind burkas and breeding terrorists in our midsts and any other pack of lies politicians can get away with short of actually calling immigrants wogs, Pakis or niggers out loud. There are votes in it, Teribus, millions of 'em. Puts bums in polling booths. Immigration bad-mouthing is why we're coming out of the EU.

And I include Gordon "British jobs for British workers" Brown. He and his merry New Labour mob were on approximately the same point of the political spectrum as Maggie.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM

"our" democratic system hasn't failed Jom - Communism did though didn't it - rather spectacularly if I remember it.

1000 up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM

" you are telling a bare-faced lie in order to get yourself elected. It's called playing the race card"

No it is not Shaw it is called "electioneering" and every single candidate and every single party standing for election does it. The list of things promised by Blair and Brown in 1997 that they completely and utterly failed to deliver on would fill a book as thick as "War & Peace", the two greatest lies they told {according to your definition} related to education and the NHS. We have the mess we have related to immigration solely because of the policies they introduced {Blair even admitted it}.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 11:27 AM

"You can make whatever promise you like in good faith when you are in opposition and responsible for S.F.A."
Which underlines the failings of our "democratic" system.
Basically, thinks haven't changed since we got "democracy" - that would be sometime in the first few decades of the 19th century, wouldn't it???
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 09:56 AM

Impossible to control for obvious reasons eh? In that case the promise was not made in good faith. If you say that you will control immigration when you know damn well that you can't you are telling a bare-faced lie in order to get yourself elected. It's called playing the race card. And the LibDems did not force any compromise on that stated promise. Even the Tories didn't blame them when the policy failed. They simply lied about it, saying that it had been an aspiration, not a "no ifs, no buts" promise. You are defending the indefensible.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 08:58 AM

You can make whatever promise you like in good faith when you are in opposition and responsible for S.F.A. Very different game when you actually have to do the job and are then faced with real problems that require you to come up with real and practicable solutions.

It was a Coalition Government that came to power a few months later not a Conservative Government - I think that is a fairly well documented fact.

Stu I see that in his speech he did refer to the introduction of the immigration caps I mentioned in my post. The fact that immigration proved impossible to control while inside the EU I would have thought would have been obvious for reasons I have already given.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 07:55 AM

"Tell me Shaw who was Prime Minister in JANUARY 2010 "
He was leader of the Tory Party and in the position to make such promises for when they came into power, which they did a few months later
Jin Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:47 AM

'Virgin's stated policy to fill its trains'

The other day I found easily a seat where the display thingy said Available
But - Notices stuck thereabouts stated that even apparently available seats could be booked 'onshore' and you might have to leave


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM

When did campaign pledges ever count--Once they did, but when did they stop being taken seriously?

Yup, keeping the campaign promise to hold the referendum will count as one of the rashest gestures of mega stupidity in recent history.

You have more consumer guarantees buying a hoover, or even a used car, than
voting for a political party or in a UK referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM

Sorry Tezza, you;re dead wrong on this. In 2010 Cameron pledged to cut immigration to the "tens of thousands", "no ifs, no buts". He said it was a promise:

"But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That's a promise we made to the British people. And it's a promise we are keeping."

Full transcript here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/14/david-cameron-immigration-speech


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM

Cameron promised in JANUARY 2010

Tell me Shaw who was Prime Minister in JANUARY 2010 - certainly wasn't David Cameron was it.

David Cameron also promised a Referendum Vote on the UK's EU membership too prior to the General Election in May of 2010. That along with other items contained in the Conservative Party's Manifesto had to be abandoned as part of the price of forming the Coalition.

In forming the Coalition Government with the Liberal-Democrats agreements were made detailing "Coalition Policy" in the following areas:

1.1 Deficit
1.2 Spending
1.3 Tax
1.4 Banking
1.5 Immigration
1.6 Political reform
1.7 Pensions and welfare
1.8 Education
1.9 European Union
1.10 Civil liberties
1.11 Environment

On immigration, the shortest section of the agreement, it only stated that a cap on immigration should be set - thus ending Labour's open door uncontrolled immigration policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:24 PM

By the way, do carry on with the schoolyard comparisons with the other children who you claim are just as bad, which you seem to think lets the Tories off the hook. I hate to keep saying it, but it's no skin off my nose. I hold no candle for Blair and Brown and never did.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM

Cameron promised in JANUARY 2010 - before the coalition - to cut net immigration to the tens of thousands, no ifs, no buts. There would be a cap. No LibDem forced him to relinquish that pledge. Theresa May was responsible for carrying it out. It couldn't be done. They KNEW it couldn't be done. It was entirely a Tory election gambit, a deliberate lie, nothing to do with the LibDems, unmodified by the coalition arrangements. It's laughable that you are trying to divert the blame for the failure of the policy on to the coalition. Cameron and May are Tories to the core and did not change their spots just because a few Liberals were handed tokenistic roles.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:45 AM

The 2010 General Election resulted in the UK being governed by a Coalition Government - YES or NO - simple enough question even for you Shaw.

Your earlier statement that:

"As for the immigration numbers, the Tories have had six years in which they have failed abysmally - ABYSMALLY - to address the promise they made."

Is incorrect. But as you seem fixated on governments that failed ABYSMALLY - shall we run through the things that Blair & Brown's Labour Government failed ABYSALLY at in the 13 years they had in office?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 10:23 AM

It was a Tory prime minister and a Tory Home Secretary and there was no resistance from the LibDems to that promise, a long-standing, rock-solid Tory sentiment, being in the manifesto. We all know where the buck stops, except for you. And the £350 million per week was a lie and you know it. We don't have to wait until 2020 for that to be crystal clear. And we'll wait until kingdom come for Boris's points-system promise to come to fruition. Ain't gonna happen. It's on the poster behind him with an x in the box next to it. That means "Vote leave and you're voting for a points system." What the hell else was it supposed to mean? Now come along. I've admitted to the lies and scaremongering of the Remain side. Time for all you smug brexiteers to admit the same and confess that there was a massive democratic deficit surrounding the whole damn thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 10:11 AM

By the way, Teribus, the numbers of refugees or people granted asylum here (and they do have to be HERE before they can apply for asylum) are tiny compared with the overall immigration numbers, which makes your point virtually irrelevant. The term "economic migrant" is meaningless. Anyone moving to another country to better themselves is an economic migrant, which includes just about everyone who wants to come to live in the UK from anywhere. That includes my dentist (EU) and the bloke who carried out the surgery on my back (non-EU). As for refugees/asylum seekers, they are not exactly coming here in droves, are they? They do not provide anything like the adequate excuse for May's abysmal failure as Home Secretary to carry out Cameron's rash promise on immigration, made only as an election tactic because the Tories have to look "tough on immigration." It was an impossible-to-keep promise and they knew it. A lie. Then she lied about its being a promise!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:50 AM

Only problem with all of that Shaw is that we, and they, are talking about things that are yet to happen, so to varying degrees of rationality everybody is crystal ball gazing. None are in a position to do anything other than make suggestions as to what might happen. So in reality there is nothing for me to be in denial about. If you think that promises were made then you are denying the fact that no money saved from us leaving the EU can be allocated until after we have left the EU which can only happen at the earliest sometime in 2020.

No the Tories have not had six years to sort out the immigration mess that the last Labour Government got us into, between 2010 and 2015 there was no Tory Government there was a Coalition Government - yet another fact that you are in denial about.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

In view of Stu's post and the photo of Boris, I'd say that you are in total denial, Teribus. If you make a promise that you know you won't be able to keep, or that is based on false information (such as the £350 million a week lie), or that you are not in any position to make, then you are lying. As for the immigration numbers, the Tories have had six years in which they have failed abysmally - ABYSMALLY - to address the promise they made. Around half of the immigration has NOTHING to do with EU rules, in spite of your convoluted excuses for the inability to control it (and they did PROMISE! Even if you're right, which I doubt, presumably they knew about the issues you mentioned when they made that promise. So, a promise they were in NO POSITION TO MAKE). The confident prediction from that, nay, a dead cert I'd say, is that immigration will be unaffected by Brexit, yet we're going to lose the single market. Considering that "controlling our borders" was arguably the point upon which the whole referendum turned, I'd say that is more than ironic. It's downright disreputable.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:50 AM

"We get more immigration from outside the EU than from the EU. No EU regulations cause that."

Depending upon who things are classified Shaw.

Any economic immigrant, or refugee, from outside the EU who manages to get into Europe and get registered can then under EU rules enter the UK. Once inside the country ECHR greatly limits what can be done to expel people from the country.

YOUR reading of the others makes them promises only IN YOUR OPINION - not in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:31 AM

"Lets give our NHS the £350 million the EU take every week"

Oh dear, but the Brexit campaign supporters on this forum say it was never a promise, it was only a suggestion ..............

It seems to me to be a clear, precise promise to increase spending on the NHS by £350 per week if a vote to leave was successful.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM

"That's right Stu - The sky is falling - enjoy!"

Heck T, you're the military man. You really want the Chinese government controlling our energy supply? You want them tapped into the national grid? To our control and logistics systems? You'd be happy with that?


"No such promise was ever made."

Er, I refer you to this sign behind Boris (note immigration promise too): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/05/keep-britain-in-eu-legal-c

And this sign seems quite clear: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/one-month-on-what-is-the-impact-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:30 AM

We get more immigration from outside the EU than from the EU. No EU regulations cause that. Theresa May, in spite of the Tory promise, failed to address that, then she lied that it had been a promise. She knew all along that there was never any hope of cutting it to tens of thousands. A lie on top of a lie. A promise you know you can't keep is a lie. Clegg lied. The brexiteers lied about EU money diverting to the NHS. Johnson promised a points system. Not happening. Lies. Dress these things up with your cod explanations and excuses all you like. They are lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:02 AM

SPB-Cooperator - 05 Sep 16 - 12:32 PM - Classic case of jumping fences before you even know they have been built, let alone before you actually come to them. But one thing we do know, we buy more from Europe than they buy from us, according to your little synopsis it would appear that only the UK gets hurt by the imposition of "tariffs" - that of course is patently ridiculous.

Jim Carroll - 05 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM - Uniformed generalisations and idiotic stereotypical misinformation.

"the types of work taken on by these people is that which largely need no training" - Any idea of the numbers of skilled tradesmen who have poured into Europe and the UK from Eastern Europe Jom?

"apprenticeships in Britain are largely a thing of the past." - Not strictly true Jom they are in the process of being reintroduced, so early days yet.

"British colonialism was a form of politico/economic exploitation forced on nations without their being consulted - largely by force of arms" - The British Empire was formed and based on trade not conquest - your "largely by force of arms" is a myth.

Steve Shaw - 05 Sep 16 - 05:24 PM

"Labour is "cheap" because BRITISH employers pay immigrants low wages." ..........."They get what they are given by BRITISH employers."


Are you 100% sure of that Shaw? No non-BRITISH agents or agencies in countries of origin, or in the UK?

"the lies told to us by the brexiteers"

"We cannot "control our borders" whilst being in the single market."


Not a lie Shaw, simply put we cannot control our borders while we are members of the EU, we do however have a say as to who comes in and who doesn't if we are independent of EU rules and regulations.

"We will not get a points system, which we were promised"

An "Australian type" point system was mentioned as a suggestion, not as a promise.

"We will not get hundreds of millions of rescued EU money pumped into the NHS, as we were promised."

No such promise was ever made.

"tuition fees WERE trebled, weren't they, Nick Clegg?"

Probably because they had to be Shaw. Parties in opposition can make whatever promises they like in order to convince the uniformed into voting for them. It is only when that political party is elected into office that reality hits home and they have to come up with workable solutions for real problems.

"Immigration was NOT reduced to the "tens of thousands", in spite of the fact that over half of the immigration that Theresa May "failed to control" had absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU."

Not quite as clear cut as you'd like to make us think Shaw. Two things combined to hinder any effort at controlling immigration:

1: Tony Blair and Labours "open door" policy, which even he admitted was a tremendous error.
2: Membership of the EU compels us to observe and obey "their" rules

We cannot even begin to address these problems until we have left the EU.

"Saddam did NOT have WMDs that could be activated within 45 minutes."

Irrelevant, the regime of Saddam Hussein and Iraq was not invaded in 2003 because they had WMD, they were invaded because they had failed to comply with the terms and conditions of the Safwan ceasefire agreement signed by Iraq and the Ba'ath regime in March 1991.

"If you really want to conclude that Jezza was really lying, then put that alleged lie into the context of real political lies."

Without a shadow of a doubt Jeremy Corbyn was caught in a very public manner lying about there being no seats on the train he was travelling on. All he succeeded in doing was to make himself look silly. You have given no examples of any "real political lies" apart form the one quite clearly told by Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:01 AM

Only on a slow day!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 06:18 PM

"All that said, I do think a pint of beer is just the right amount."

With the caveat "per 45 minutes," I presume...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:24 PM

Labour is "cheap" because BRITISH employers pay immigrants low wages. Immigrant workers do not demand low wages. No-one in work ever demanded to be paid as little as possible. They get what they are given by BRITISH employers. They have no choice. As very few immigrants claim benefits, there can be no complaint against them. Paying wages as low as possible to people who have no choice has a name. We call it capitalism.

The facts about Corbyn's train ride have yet to be cast in stone, Stu. If he did lie, which is in doubt, the lie pales beside the lies told to us by the brexiteers. We cannot "control our borders" whilst being in the single market. We will not get a points system, which we were promised. We will not get hundreds of millions of rescued EU money pumped into the NHS, as we were promised. Going back just a little, tuition fees WERE trebled, weren't they, Nick Clegg? Immigration was NOT reduced to the "tens of thousands", in spite of the fact that over half of the immigration that Theresa May "failed to control" had absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU. Going back even further, Saddam did NOT have WMDs that could be activated within 45 minutes. And yer man DID have sex with "that woman" and he did inhale. If you really want to conclude that Jezza was really lying, then put that alleged lie into the context of real political lies. And don't forget the lies that the imbecilic David Davies was telling the Commons today.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM

"No one has yet answered the question on the morality of reliance on cheap immigrant labour to drive our economy?"
Yes they have - interminably
!Reliance on immigrant labour means our own people will not receive adequate training to do the jobs which require doing and are going to be parked on benefits for life."
Not true - the types of work taken on by these people is that which largely need no training
A moot point anyway - apprenticeships in Britain are largely a thing of the past.
"You complain about British Colonialism "
British colonialism was a form of politico/economic exploitation forced on nations without their being consulted - largely by force of arms
Your scaremongering and misinformation is exactly the type of hate-mongering that directly causes the rise in hate crimes - which you have yet to respond to.
Brexit was pushed through on a racist ticket - as evidenced here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:47 PM

No one has yet answered the question on the morality of reliance on cheap immigrant labour to drive our economy?

The moral question is, who is to service the Polish and Romanian economies, and maintain the infrastructure in these countries and others in Eastern Europe.

Reliance on immigrant labour means our own people will not receive adequate training to do the jobs which require doing and are going to be parked on benefits for life......is that moral?

You complain about British Colonialism yet have no scruples about exploiting foreign workers to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed.......The hypocrisy of the "liberal left" writ large.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:32 PM

We don't need the single market if we are not bothered about the inflationary effect on import tariffs for goods we consume on a daily basis, or if we are not bothered about the inflationary effect on import tariffs related to supply-chain components. It would most likely hurt those on low incomes, people with disabilities, people on other benefits etc etc. But people who wanted Brexit won, so they should just live with it??????

And with regards to supply chains - will multinational companies really want to pay higher production costs because of import tariffs, or would it make more sense to move 100% of production to a trading area without internal tariffs?

If production is moved elsewhere in Europe, how does Davis plan to force the relevant countries to accept free movement of workers from the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM

One of the more disturbing features has been the sharp rise in racist incidents since the referendum.
"Almost 6,200 hate crimes have been reported in Britain over the month since the June 23 referendum, which saw immigration become a key issue during a bitter and deeply divisive campaign."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM

That's right Stu - The sky is falling - enjoy!!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:16 PM

David Davis has been in the commons talking about Brexit. It seems they still have no idea what this means, how they are going to do it and if we will stay in the single market, which he says we don't need to do.

We're going to get hauled over the coals in trade deals by the likes of India and China, who will now be able to out innovate, out develop and control much technical innovation (especially renewable energy technologies which are the future) us on all fronts. We're already in hock to a totalitarian regime in China that now seeks to own our means of producing energy, with all the issues that raises in terms of independence and security.

These countries will make mincemeat of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM

"Still a lie though,"
True, to a point (if it is), but there's a bit of a difference between "being economical with the truth" in order to expose a wider truth and just lying to totally distort the facts, as happens at every election-time.
One certainly does indicate contempt, I don't believe the other does.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM

If this was racially motivated, this alone in my book invalidates the whole referendum in spite of what the article says towards the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/05/death-arkadiusz-jozwik-post-referendum-racism-xenophobes-brexit-vote?CMP=f


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 10:12 AM

" And, alongside those other lies, Jezza's lie (if it was one) is a peccadillo."

Still a lie though, and further evidence of the contempt most of Westminster seems to hold us all in.


"Yet when I go down to the Pub I still go down there and order a Pint."

Do you still pay of it in groats or barter spears for it? Things move on. SI units are in metric and everyone understands them except for a few old fuddy duddies. As for beer, the Americans sell it in glasses sized by ounces, the europeans in litres, etc and it still tastes the same regardless.

All that said, I do think a pint of beer is just the right amount.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

"Something about having to sit on the floor because there were no seats available on a train he was travelling on."
If that's the most heinous sin he's guilty of, we'll be extremely lucky to get a major political leader with such a stainless character, especially as it is Virgin's statede policy to fill its trains to the point where they can't move.
Jim Carroll
POLITICAL LIARS


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 07:07 AM

Cash writes: "We have a complete culture of traditional thinking on the subject of imperial measurements and yet metric was just imposed on us." But it was actually our own government that supported metrication in 1965 after appeals from several industries, albeit on a voluntary basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:21 AM

Yep. But try buying supermarket beer in pints, or wine, or lemonade, or orange juice. Our adopting the metric system has nothing to do with the EU. And, alongside those other lies, Jezza's lie (if it was one) is a peccadillo. Shame we weren't on that train, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:10 AM

Steve Shaw - 05 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM - No idea and I couldn't care less - as long as he is there, there will never be another Labour Government. But you did ask:

Steve Shaw - 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 PM

"What lies has he told?"


I just supplied you with the information you requested.

SPB-Cooperator - 05 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM - Cash is pretty much spot on when he says:

"culture of traditional thinking on the subject of imperial measurements"

How long have we had the metric system now? Since 1980s? So over 30 years - Yet when I go down to the Pub I still go down there and order a Pint.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM

You beat me to it, SBS. All that EU dough promised for the NHS. Not happening. A LIE. An immigration points system promised, not happening. A LIE. More to come! Immigration down to the tens of thousands by now, promised by the woman who is now our hallowed leader. Never achievable and she knew it. A LIE. Then she lied about its having been a promise! Makes Jeremy's little train altercation look like nicking a tube of Smarties from Woollies, eh? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM

Just for a bit of fun...... Brexit honesty, huh?

https://infacts.org/sun-article-perpetuates-metrication-myths/


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM

Well may he burn in hell. Or will St Pete allow him a fair trial first?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:22 AM

Something about having to sit on the floor because there were no seats available on a train he was travelling on.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 PM

What lies has he told?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:21 PM

Lord Powell of Bayswater, diplomat, politician and businessman. Definitely part of the "establishment" and very well connected. He would say whatever was required to get what he wanted - Just like Corbyn, and we all know now that he IS a liar - don't we.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

Of course the only way he gets the big job is if more people see her as being even more flawed

Not at all - Hillary aside, if enough unintelligent uneducated morons vote for The Trumpshit, bobs your uncle.

Then we're in deep Trumpshit - worldwide.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:19 PM

Er, so you think he may be a liar? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:15 PM

Very true Shaw, I merely point out the differences, and the back-door way the Treaty of Lisbon was introduced. Also being part of the "establishment" Lord Powell of Bayswater, her longest-serving and most trusted former foreign policy adviser might have an agenda of his own that prompted him to state what he did - So far we have succeeded in changed nothing and managed to reform nothing of the EU's excesses by working from "within" - not even to the extent of them submitting balanced accounts that would tell people where all the money goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:40 PM

Well he knew her slightly better than you did. 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:11 PM

For somebody to say today that Margaret Thatcher would have been opposed to Brexit is rather idiotic. Margaret Thatcher after all knew nothing of the Europe of 2016.

Changes:

1: The deal she had won for the United Kingdom no longer existed, Tony Blair had negotiated part of the UK's rebate away in exchange for reforms that never materialised - Margaret Thatcher would never have done that.

2: The Treaty of Lisbon was something that Margaret Thatcher would never have allowed to stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

Well I think we should vote in general and local elections only. I want the politicians we elect to make the big decisions, then, if we think they've made the wrong ones, we can throw them out. So if Maggie Thatcher was opposed to referendums, I'm right with her. And savour that moment because you will never witness my saying anything remotely like that in my life ever again.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:33 AM

or better people should only be allowed to vote intelligently.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:28 AM

Trumped! Nice turn of phrase. Of course the only way he gets the big job is if more people see her as being even more flawed. In a way it could be down to which one has the most money. Time will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:03 AM

only the intelligent should be allowed to vote

—'tis a consummation devoutly to be wish'd.

Otherwise, ya gets Trumped.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 09:30 AM

The campaign in my local constituency was base upon honest discussion on people's doorsteps, for instance the preference of mutual benefit through cooperation, as opposed to isolationist self-interest.   Don't kid yourself that any future trade deals with economic powers outside EU will have the interests of workers at heart. What is worst is that we will no longer be paying our fair share towards the cohesion structural development of those less developed economies that did not have the advantage of profits from the slave trade to fast track their wealth. Because of this the EU has a moral duty to apply the most punitive tariffs possible in order to recoup the contribution, irrespective of how many people in the UK are reduced to abject poverty. it would be the democratic decision of over half a billion Europeans - so   you won - get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:19 AM

I concur with that prediction, Stu. One thing's for sure, which has been clear from the outset: we do not get to be in the single market unless we leave our borders open. Any concession made in that direction would very likely spell the end of the EU. Anyone for WWIII?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

Well who'd have thought it.

Thatcher 'would not
have supported Brexit'


Margaret Thatcher would never have supported Brexit or the holding of an in/out referendum, her longest-serving and most trusted former foreign policy adviser has told the Observer.
Lord Powell of Bayswater, who was at Thatcher's side during her most epic confrontations with Brussels during the 1980s, said the Eurosceptic former prime minister would always have preferred to battle the EU from within, whatever the scale of her frustrations, rather than opening the door to exit.
"Of course she got fed up with it, but I don't believe that as prime minister she would ever have campaigned to take Britain out of Europe or had a referendum to allow that to happen," he said. "She wanted to change Europe and she set out to change it with great vigour, but I don't believe she would have chosen this way and she would have avoided getting trapped by the referendum promise.
"She never had any truck with referendums and frequently spoke out against them."....

...Powell added that he was "pole-axed" by the vote to leave on 23 June, which he regarded as a huge backwards step.
Referring to David Cameron's decision to hold a referendum, he said: "It was a terrible misjudgment and miscalculation. I would have preferred us to stay in and continue to work for change in Europe, which was beginning to happen at a faster pace."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM

"If every one knew it was a lie, how could it be a promise?"

Seriously? The fact that Brexiteers repeated the lie time and again in the hope of fooling some of the people, which they did. Even arch-right winger John Redwood did an excruciating interview where he had to repeat the lie through gritted teeth and some considerable embarrassment; it was hilarious. Of course, the likes of Gove and Johnson are accomplished bullshitters so had no issue with being barefaced liars.

It's worth remembering that anyone who voted tory in the last general election also bears some responsibility for Brexit; they voted in favour of holding the referendum after all. Neither of the campaigns were well-run or treated the people with any respect and was a new low for British politics.

But.. we're heading out so all we can do is try to hold the Brexiteers feet to the fire, guard against the xenophobia they've whipped up and make sure they do their job in getting us out as painlessly as possible.

It'll all be a waste of time; we'll stay in the single market and keep the free movement of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 AM

Cameron, stupidly, made himself a hostage to fortune. Politicians routinely quietly drop rash promises (such as the Tory one about cutting immigration to the tens of thousands and the LibDems one about tuition fees). The reasons he couldn't drop the referendum one were that he was avoiding a fatal split in his party and that he was running scared of UKIP. On both counts he had lost control. Worse, he was certain he was going to win it. Now look where we are. He's been a bloody idiot about this and whatever "legacy" he thinks he's got is totally shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:50 AM

Well there you go. In this robust part of the world you tend to defend yourself when you think someone isn't being very nice about you. I've contributed my opinions with fairly close arguments in this thread, only to be accused of being undemocratic. I'm fine with that, but having it back at the perpetrator is hardly pursuing a vendetta.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:49 AM

Cameron's referendum? IIRC this EU Referendum goes back to the attempted introduction of the Treaty of Lisbon - a Treaty that made major changes to the previous treaties that governed how the EU was run. Gordon Brown hinted that acceptance of this treaty would depend upon a referendum in the UK = that referendum did not happen because two other European countries who were members of the EU got in ahead of us and rejected the Treaty of Lisbon. The EU elite then went into a huddle and by some back-door dealing managed to get the treaty in through some technicality or other. Cameron promised the British electorate a referendum on Europe as part of the Conservative Manifesto in 2010. That didn't happen because the Lib-Dems vetoed it when they formed the Coalition Government. The same promise was made for the 2015 General Election which the Conservatives won and the promise to hold the EU Referendum was kept.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:41 AM

It is a shame that the serious issues that the thread raised has been largely hijacked by a few pursuing personal vendettas.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:22 AM

What rubbish. You want the whole population to make an irrevocable decision on an extremely complex matter that will affect the country for many decades (including - especially including - people who are too young to vote). That was a bad choice to begin with, all the worse because that choice was made by Cameron for all the wrong reasons. The very least that should have happened was a huge education programme. Well pigs might fly. With politicians on two opposing sides that was simply never going to happen. The country was peddled lies from both sides and the thresholds for turnout and voting outcome were set way too low. Just over one third of those eligible to vote are dragging us out of the EU. Unconscionable. Indefensible. And lopsided, in that one choice put before the public was irrevocable whereas the other was reversible. That in itself is a damn good reason why those thresholds were set all wrong.

Yes it went your way, smug Stanron, and not mine. That is no reason to question my democratic credentials. In fact, as you are ignoring all the points I've made, every one of which is in criticism of the democratic deficit surrounding the referendum, I'd say that your credentials are far more suspect. And I haven't forgotten the blatant racism peddled by your side. Do I take it that you implicitly approve of it?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:58 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: There's a damn sight more to democracy than sticking a pencil in someone's hand in a polling booth.

This is an attitude that gets all my alarm bells ringing. It's only one step away from saying that only the intelligent should be allowed to vote. Or only people who think like me should be able to vote, or only people in my party should be allowed to vote.

Or "Kill the opposition"!

Ding dong.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:58 AM

Leave [ ]

Remain [ ]

Boaty McBoatface [ ]


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:39 AM

So much of both campaigns was dishonest in intent. The whole thing was an undemocratic shambles. There's a damn sight more to democracy than sticking a pencil in someone's hand in a polling booth.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM

If every one knew it was a lie, how could it be a promise? Not just semantics, logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 04:35 AM

Sematics, and we all know it. The inference is crystal clear and is dishonest in intent; heck even the £350 million was a lie and everyone knew it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 04:10 AM

Re: your link Stu. No promise there, merely a suggested alternative of what to do with the net amount of money we pay into the EU. If that was a promise it would not be written as "Let's fund our NHS instead", it would have been written "We will fund our NHS instead".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:59 AM

"I don't believe for one minute that these guys care about the welfare of economic immigrants"

Therein lies the difference between people to whom compassion and the common good is important and those to whom self is more important. Unfortunately, personal incredulity makes for a poor argument and the fact anyone doesn't believe this makes little difference.



"Talking of details, I'd have thought a man well versed in scientific research would have known the importance of attention to detail."

I'm flattered T, you old rogue! But the promise about the £350m was plastered on the side of the Leave battle bus and was part of the deception.

See: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/27/heres-all-the-leave-campaigners-whove-backtracked-

Of course IDS, Grayling and the other Brexit slugs all now say that it was never promise etc etc, but that merely shows their utter contempt for the public. Of course both sides lied and the whole referendum was a farce, but now the Brexiteers have to sort the mess out.

Get on with it kiddos!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:40 AM

"That does not mean to say that later the specifics did become known."
Then 'you'll be able to produce them, won't you?
Finished with this one Woodie - it has no place here.
Just put it up to show what you're made of.
Still abuse instead of answers - font color=red. AND STILL NO LINKS TO ANYTHING YOU CLAIM.
More examples of your chosen make-up
Have a good rally now, d'y hear?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:25 AM

Ehmmm Carroll it probably was unspecified at that time {16 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM} - That does not mean to say that later the specifics did become known.

But tell me Jom what ammunition would be available for sale in the UK, and why would they be selling it?

1: The "Brits" would not make, store or stockpile ammunition that would be suitable for Russian/Soviet weapons.

2: Standard NATO rifle ammunition for all European members of the alliance would be 7.62x51mm - it is also used in NATO LMGs

3: The UK changed their standard infantry weapon from the L1A1 SLR firing 7.62x51mm round to the HK SA80 A2 L85 Assault Rifle firing a 5.56×45mm round, the other European members of NATO stayed with 7.62x51mm - So which NATO country would have an over-abundance of Standard NATO 7.62x51mm ammunition going for sale on the cheap Jom? (Actually bought some of it myself - very cheap practice rounds)

By the way Jom thanks for the PM - as a spit-flecked rant it is quite an amusing bit of pointless froth - any time I want a good laugh I dare say I'll open it up and read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM

"Still nothing to say then Jom?"
About what exactly?
Ive put my position and have linked to everything I've put - you have saidd nothing and linked nothing
I think it's about time you asked yourself that question.
Wan't me to link you to your "unspecified ammunition" statement which exposes your dishonest arguments
Happy to do that, if you wish.
"The ammunition (unspecified as to type) (Homs horror GUEST,Teribus - Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM)
THere you go - always happy to oblige
You never learn do you, belligerent and arrogant bullying only puts you where you are in the pecking order - pretty near the bottom.
Now - why not try something that's not couched in insecure belligerence?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:39 AM

Still nothing to say then Jom?

Whaz up waiting for your script?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:49 AM

"Nothing whatsoever to say then Jom? Just the empty beating of your gums."
Still talking down to people
I'd have thought your recent foot-n-mouths would have taught you a lesson - obviously not!
Bullying, blustering, bullshit appears to still be your guide.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:07 AM

"UK investment funds have holdings all over the world - now tell me boys with this 10% (or %10 as Jom seems to prefer) drop in the value of Sterling have they made or lost money because of the Brexit vote? I'll put you out of your misery and save you a great deal of trouble - They made a bloody fortune out of it"

Well aware of this, I did pretty well myself thank you very much.

Doesn't mean to say that the country as a whole will benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 02:13 AM

Don't think so Shaw, you are obviously not that great a fan of the bare truth and, as pointed out, thankfully you neither direct nor dictate things to anybody on this forum, like everyone else you can only state your opinion, which in your case is the repetition of ideological twaddle, delivered poorly without logic or reason. Take it that you have not read the post-referendum reports - "Britain is Booming".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 07:14 PM

Have another two pints, Woodcock, then turn in. You're raving.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:38 PM

By the bye Shaw what MikeL2 - 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM is what actually counts.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:32 PM

Steve Shaw - 02 Sep 16 - 06:08 PM

You're using your "tell" that lets me know that I am really niggling you Shaw. It matters not a flying f**k what you approve or disapprove of, no-one apart from yourself is even remotely interested in what your idea of democracy is, your are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to ram it down the throats of anybody else. But just for the record do not for one second complain about a voter turn-out of 72.2% that takes us out of the EU, without an equal complaint about a voter turn-out of 67.7% that kept us in the EU. Your complaint about the former logically means that we should never have stayed in in the first place.

"Once we leave the decision is irrevocable." - NOT TRUE - We can resubmit an application to join the EU at any point in the future. If we do, we accept ever closer political integration and we accept the Euro as our currency. Watch what will happen in the EU in the next few years, we may be the first major country to leave the EU, we most certainly will not be the last.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:25 PM

By the way, Wooders, thanks for the numbers that actually make things look even worse than they were. The statistic that matters is not the percentage of the population but the percentage of the electorate, around 38% of whom voted leave. Still looks shite put that way, eh? I'm just wondering what you'd say if some massive public sector strike ballot gave a similar result with the strike going ahead. Hmm...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:08 PM

Excuse me, Woodcock. I have already told you that I did not approve of the 1975 referendum either. How many times do I have to tell you, cloth-ears?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:51 PM

Jim Carroll - 02 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM - Nothing whatsoever to say then Jom? Just the empty beating of your gums.

SPB-Cooperator - 02 Sep 16 - 11:35 AM

"27% of the UK voted to leave, 73% didn't"


Do you actually believe that ill-informed, incorrect and idiotic CRAP - the population of the UK is what SPB-Cooperator? 65 million - who is allowed to vote in elections and referenda SPB-Cooperator? Something like 46 million so only 71% of the UK is entitled to vote so your figures if you actually want to see them are as follows:

28.64% of the population of the UK were not entitled to vote
100% of the electorate of the UK {71% of the population} were entitled to vote and were free to vote
19.82% of the population of the UK couldn't be arsed to vote
26.77% of the population of the UK voted to leave the EU
24.77% of the population of the UK voted to remain in the EU


People under 18 do not have a vote in UK Referenda

The referendum concerned the electorate of the UK not the electorate of the EU. If I was working in the Netherlands {Which I have} and they held a referendum I would not be allowed to vote in it, nor would I expect to be allowed a vote.

"The reason for the referendum was that" the Conservatives had promised the electorate of the United Kingdom a referendum on EU membership during the General Election of 2010. They could not honour that promise as it had to be abandoned at the insistence of the Liberal-Democrat Party as part of the price of forming a coalition government. The promise was made again as part of the 2015 General Election campaign and the Conservative Government honoured their pledge to the electorate of the United Kingdom.

"The exit campaign was centered around LIES."

WHAT??? Only the exit campaign was centred around lies?? I think that the "remain" campaign was loaded with lies and proven unfounded alarmist crap. Politicians when they are trying to sell their brand of snake oil to the electorate ALWAYS lie - if you do not know that by now then you are astonishingly naïve. What you THINK has no legal standing is irrelevant and immaterial - Here are the figures that matter:

Voter Turn Out - 72.2%
Votes to Leave - 17,410,742 (51.9% of the electorate who could be arsed to vote)
Votes to Remain - 16,141,241 (48.1% of the electorate who could be arsed to vote)

Result: The electorate of the UK who could be arsed to vote in the EU Referendum elected to LEAVE the EU

Steve Shaw - 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM - A lesser voter turn-out kept us in in 1975 - no complaints then.

MikeL2 - 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM

"People could not be bothered to vote in my mind agreed to leave the result to those of us who cared. So manipulation of the statistics is meaningless now the vote has been made.

I certainly agree that there would be a completely different attitude had the result been the other way round.

We should stop all the arguments and get on with getting the job done."


Well said - no truer words ever spoken.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:13 PM

a "liberal" fantasy taking a big hit

Ake, reality has a liberal bias.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 04:47 PM

the whines and moans are all about a "liberal" fantasy taking a big hit.....nothing to do with left or right real politics.

I don't believe for one minute that these guys care about the welfare of economic immigrants.....To them its all about ideology.....well guys its getting near the wire the backlash is happening all over the world......the "good times" lasted too long .......get used to it!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:23 PM

Except it is not a game, it is real grown up politic which has not been taken seriously by those who have taken the 'I've benefitted for the last 40 years and don't give a toss about anyone thing whatsoever about how the EU works. I am happy for those to have their sense of self-righteous satisfaction, as long as they, and only they pay the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:02 PM

If remain had won, Fagarse and his obnoxioous voters would be bleating on even more. Who were the idiots who were prepared to make accusations that the vote was rigged? LEAVERS Who were bleating on about voters needing to take Biros to the polling station? LEAVERSD. Who do not give a toss about how many peopples ;ives they have ****ed up LEAVERS.   So when are you leavers going to compensate the rest of the country for all the detrimental effects????? Why do farmers (but ensure that farm labourers are paid proper saleries) think they should be entitled to a single penny of tax payers money in lieu of CAP, surely it is better to force land owner to work for £72/week on workfare to make sure that the food supplies are not interrupted.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM

Hi stanron

I completely agree with all your points.

Everybody knew the rules of the game and how the decision would be arrived at.

The majority of people who voted did so to leave.

People could not be bothered to vote in my mind agreed to leave the result to those of us who cared. So manipulation of the statistics is meaningless now the vote has been made.

I certainly agree that there would be a completely different attitude had the result been the other way round.

We should stop all the arguments and get on with getting the job done.

Cheer

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:27 PM

Leaving


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM

You're quite right - a close remain vote would have been far more valid than the close leave vote. Several things. First, you're asking the electorate to change a 40-year status quo, all on the whim of a Tory prime minister who was running scared of his own toxic right wing and of UKIP. The best interests of the UK were not his priority. Second, the campaign on both sides was never going to be an educational experience for the public. So it turned out, both sides stooping to packs of lies, and the real long-term consequences of leaving were never spelled out. The bar was set too low both for turnout (over a quarter of the registered electorate failed to vote) and for the result (in my view the threshold for levying should have been at least 60% of the registered electorate). Once we leave the decision is irrevocable. That would not have been the case had there been a narrow vote to remain, and you can bet your life there would have been further attempts down the road to get more referendums. We have allowed less than 38% of the electorate to make a irrevocable decision based on fear and ignorance. That isn't my idea of democracy in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

A sore looser or what?

SPB-Cooperator wrote: 27% of the UK voted to leave, 73% didn't - people under 18 who will bear the brunt of the decision had no vote such as not having the opportunities of freedom of movement.

Perhaps it's a good lesson on how to lie with statistics. Of the total electorate 72% took the opportunity to vote. 52% voted leave and 48% voted remain. If 'remain' had won with the same difference you wouldn't be arguing about the figures.


SPB-Cooperator wrote: The reason for the referendum was that the government used it for political convenience as they were worried that if they didn't promise it they would have lost power due to losing votes to the UKIP neo-fascist imbeciles.

I agree with the first part of this but calling the people who voted for UKIP neo-fascist imbeciles shows how out of touch you are with the real word.
SPB-Cooperator wrote: Thirdly the exit campaign was centered around LIES. Therefore in my view, it has no legal standing apart from the view of nasty, rabid ****s like May, Johnson, Davis etc.

Both sides lied. If you only see the lies on one side you are not seeing the complete picture.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:26 PM

Dunno about legal standing, as the law can be an ass. It certainly has no moral standing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 11:35 AM

27% of the UK voted to leave, 73% didn't - people under 18 who will bear the brunt of the decision had no vote such as not having the opportunities of freedom of movement. A colleague at work who was born in Netherlands but has lived in UK for 30 years had no vote.

The reason for the referendum was that the government used it for political convenience as they were worried that if they didn't promise it they would have lost power due to losing votes to the UKIP neo-fascist imbeciles.

Thirdly the exit campaign was centered around LIES. Therefore in my view, it has no legal standing apart from the view of nasty, rabid ****s like May, Johnson, Davis etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 11:10 AM

" The British voted to leave the EU -- stop jawing' and get on with it or give it up."

The day after Trump is elected and completes our journey to the dark side I'll post this very comment to thread a load of distressed yanks will moaning on ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM

"now tell me boys with this 10% (or %10 as Jom seems to prefer)"
Mor Mr Quelching, I see!
"I'll put you out of your misery and save you a great deal of trouble "
Pomposity with it
Two for the price of one.
But it's good to know the investors are OK - whew, was lying awake at night worrying about them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:25 AM

Funny thing about investment funds that obviously Rap and the "kipper" haven't cottoned on to.

UK investment funds have holdings all over the world - now tell me boys with this 10% (or %10 as Jom seems to prefer) drop in the value of Sterling have they made or lost money because of the Brexit vote? I'll put you out of your misery and save you a great deal of trouble - They made a bloody fortune out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:21 AM

What difference does it make now? The British voted to leave the EU -- stop jawin' and get on with it or give it up.

Do you seriously believe anything you say or do here will change what will happen in Parliament or Whitehall? Or for that matter in Brussels or Strasbourg?

"Didcha hear about the Brexit Diet? You lose pounds and pounds in just a day!"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:19 AM

The Brexit campaigners on several occasions said we should leave or risk having TTIP imposed on us. Sorry I haven't got the energy to trawl through 1000s of social media posting to find them, but if you don't want to take my word for it, then please feel free to look for them yourself.

If Brexiters are now saying TTIP is a good thing, then they need to inform everyone in the UK that they lied.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:14 AM

it can't be racist as I am White British myself


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

So the pound has risen about 1% in the last day or so, yes you are quite correct.

Give me a shout when it reaches the level it was prior to the Brexit vote.

The truth of the matter is it has fallen by over 10% since then.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:01 AM

SPB-Cooperator - 02 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM - Rather a "racist" post, but there have been a couple, yours with your "UK White British" and Jom "The Infallible" with his reference to "be-turbaned darkies" - shame on the pair of you.

Tell us all SPB-Cooperator what magnificent international trade deals has the EU negotiated in the last 20 years? Find that out then compare the EU's performance to that of City State Singapore's track record and that of a small/medium sized country like Switzerland, both of whom have run circles round the EU in this area, achieving five times the business that the EU has managed to drum up.

Stu - 02 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM - oh dear the sky is going to fall in on us again as all advancement and involvement in international science and technology projects will cease (NOT)

"Start with the £350 million to the NHS you promised us and let's take it from there."

What promise? And even if it were would we have to leave first? Or did your scientific education sort of just overlook that little detail? Talking of details, I'd have thought a man well versed in scientific research would have known the importance of attention to detail.

We pay more into the EU than we get out of it so by leaving and keeping VAT exactly where it is now we automatically gain that net amount that used to be paid to the EU. That money would then be available for other things - the NHS was an example, not a promise.

Elsewhere:

Unemployment down
Productivity and manufacturing up
FTSE up
Markit Manufacturing PMI data was released at 53.3 for August, far better than July's reading of 48.3 (The largest month on month increase the survey has seen in 25 years.)
The Pound has risen by 1.3% against the Dollar, and 0.9% against the Euro


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:36 AM

It's way too early to say whether things are working out for better our worse.

Yes, but some of the scaremongering about an immediate economic crisis (IMF, Treasury)HAVE been proved wrong already.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM

"Do you think they will have the balls to admit they were simply wrong"

It's way too early to say whether things are working out for better our worse. For foreign folk living here, no doubt it's worse as racist incidents have risen, a man is dead and it's beginning to feel like the 1970's again. For science, it's worse as we feel the disconnect from the EU in being manifested in terms of collaboration with our European colleagues.

This gloating is all in rather poor taste. You won, now you need to get in with sorting it out so everyone is better off. Start with the £350 million to the NHS you promised us and let's take it from there.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM

So another Brexit LIE unravelling. What did they say remaining in the EU puts us at risk of TTIP.

Who was pushing for EU to adopt TTIP - UK white British. What is happening now that UK white British are less involved - EU are pulling back from TTIP.   What did Davis announcement his plans? To accelerate TTIP. Last time I looked, he was white British.

If we are forced to exit EU MUST punish the UK and bring it to its knees until May and Fagarse crawls on their hands and knees and grovel and beg for reinstatment.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:09 AM

The pound is still trading at about 10% less then it's pre-brexit level.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:06 AM

Instead we got a racist for foreign secretary - that'll keep all those be-turbanned darkies out, which was the object of the exercise
Pity about the job opportunities though!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:49 AM

Well said Mr T...and I notice the pound is well on the way to recovery, last months PMI figures are the best for 25 years.
All accompanied by deafening silence from our merchants of doom :0)

Do you think they will have the balls to admit they were simply wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:12 AM

Best reason ever for Brexit - Anthony Charles Lynton Blair, the little Labour "piggy" who wanted to leave Downing Street and become President of the EU Council was on French Radio yesterday arguing that the UK could and should remain in the EU. Maybe Tone still has hopes eh?

Question for all those Labour Party Members. What was Anthony Charles Lynton Blair worth when he became Prime Minister, his net worth is now somewhere in the order of ~£26.4 million?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"It's to do with the Americas, so not really germane to this discussion. It's also from 1971, so possibly a little out of date."
Not true Nigel
AFRICA
EXPLOITATION
Can't clickie this one
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jun/14/aid-is-hardly-an-act-of-great-generosity-effectiveness
And this is before you consider our filling our shops with goods produced by slave labour
And to think we used to refer to these countries as "the white man's burden"
Some burden eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 07:53 AM

Jim,
I read the précis of "Aid as Imperialism". It's to do with the Americas, so not really germane to this discussion. It's also from 1971, so possibly a little out of date.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 03:42 AM

"The UK gives more in international aid than any other developed country apart from the United State"
Recommended reading
AID AS IMPERIALISM
I don't know if it's still available, but it put the subject of aid to the Third World in context for me decades ago
There's enough of it
HERE
to dip into to find out how Aid works
Remarkable book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 05:29 PM

Any organisation (or individual) which held property abroad is probably laughing their socks off at the moment.

Their portfolio, should they sell said property, increased in value to the extent of about 9% overnight at the Brexit vote.

Anyone who exchanged £100,000 into Euro's on the 27 June would on the 29th have recouped in the region of £109,000 on the 29th if they exchange back to Sterling.

9,000 Euro or a clear 9% NET profit for about 10 minutes work.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

0.7% is a tiny price to pay for the centuries of exploitation and slavery we imposed, to the eternal disadvantage of so many countries, and to our eternal shame, during the time when the sun never set on the red bits of the map.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:58 PM

I am happy to hear how other people suggest how UK should be forced to contribute to its MORAL duty to ensure the level of support for less economically developed states.

"The UK gives more in international aid than any other developed country apart from the United States, according to figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development." BBC
There is a United Nations target that countries should give at least 0.7% of gross national income.
But only Sweden, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark and the UK reached this in 2014.
Countries such as the United States, Germany, Switzerland and Australia give much less as a proportion. (ibid)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:42 PM

<>From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm


As we are a net contributor, then there would be less to contibute to cohension, economic stability and sustainability more deserving EU states.

If our government will not continue to contribute then the turkeys who have property abroad shouldn't have voted for christmas. If individual states make and apply their own property owners laws, then that is their choice.

Yes, we know that we are net contributors. That was one good reason to leave.
Your suggestion that individual states could make and apply their own property laws ignores another reason to leave. The EU is slowly removing the ability of member states to set their own laws. It would have to be an EU wide property grab if it were to be effective. And what states (currently outside the EU) would then feel safe investing in businesses within the EU if they knew that the EU could arbitrarily appropriate their property?

Cloud. Cuckoo. Land.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

With that controversial food for thought I have to think about food for my stomach. At least it has got the discussion back to EU and got away from the constant name calling the thread descended to.

I am happy to hear how other people suggest how UK should be forced to contribute to its MORAL duty to ensure the level of support for less economically developed states.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM

Complete nonsense.
It has always been perfectly permissible for any member state to leave.
The suggestion of reprisals against individual citizens is ludicrous.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm


As we are a net contributor, then there would be less to contibute to cohension, economic stability and sustainability more deserving EU states.

If our government will not continue to contribute then the turkeys who have property abroad shouldn't have voted for christmas. If individual states make and apply their own property owners laws, then that is their choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 01:55 PM

Nations can not just seize innocent individuals' assets and property.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:45 PM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

It does need to get back on track, for example if UK exits then the rest of Europe seizes all properties owned or part-owned by UK nationals in each country, and if they wish to stay they should pay a market rent + premium to the individual governments to help make up the loss of EU contribution from UK.


Clearly living in a different universe. (a fantasy one). That (by any country's definition) would be theft. The current owners, of whatever nationality, have already paid the previous owners for the property. Under what system do you imagine they could be seized?

Also, at the same time would we be able to appropriate the property of other EU states here in the UK? We would at least no longer have the French charging us to drive across the River Severn to get home from England.

And why should they be able to make up for the loss of our contributions? While we remain a member we continue to pay for our membership. There would be no reason to pay if we leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:45 PM

To make up for the loss of the loss of UK c0ntribution to EU budget


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

It does need to get back on track, for example if UK exits then the rest of Europe seizes all properties owned or part-owned by UK nationals in each country, and if they wish to stay they should pay a market rent + premium to the individual governments to help make up the loss of EU contribution from UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM

I see this thread has descended into interpersonal squabbles, rather than hosting a discussion of the issues. That's how it goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:47 PM

For the second time today, sod off you old bore.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM

I happily tempt you Steve.
You have nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:57 PM

" Keith and Teribus are good brave people and excellent debaters."
Yeah - and I've come to believe that you're not really homophobic but just a subliminal homosexual
Keith and Teri9buss are both right wing exstremists- why shouldn't you admire them.
Birds of a feather, and all that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:40 PM

Don't tempt us.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM

Wheatcroft.
You accused me of partially quoting.
In fact I had quoted the disputed passage in full already.

That is all you have on me and it was a year and a half ago!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:25 PM

Always factually correct, eh? Clearly, you didn't follow the Geoffrey Wheatcroft fiasco, in which Keith misquoted, Keith misrepresented, Keith made excuses, Keith wouldn't back down, Keith lied and Teribus backed him to the hilt. Still, if you insist on reading only what you want to read...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:15 PM

Mr Farage is undoubtedly brave AND an excellent debater Greg. I reserve my opinion on Mr Trump until he has actually had to perform in office.
Mrs Clintons performances have left rather a lot to be desired....and forgiven!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM

I have gradually come to the conclusion that Keith and Teribus are good brave people and excellent debaters...they are exact in what they print, and always factually correct.

Ake, you say the same things about your heroes The Trumpshit and Farage.

Shows you what your opinion is worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:16 AM

During my rather long time here, I have gradually come to the conclusion that Keith and Teribus are good brave people and excellent debaters...they are exact in what they print, and always factually correct. The fact that Mr T does not suffer fools adds to his CV as far as I am concerned.

"It's about time we all cleaned up our acts towards each other rather than whingeing about being insulted."...well start acting upon your own advice Jim, you continually print "disease carrying homosexuals" as if I had actually written these words. What I have done is refer to official statistics, freely available to all both in the UK and the US, statistics which should be of concern to every thinking person.
you have also dissembled Keith's posts dozens of times, called him racist and Islam phobic, though it is clear that he is neither.
Keith never uses abuse, no matter how much provocation he is under.

Physician heal thyself!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:03 AM

Same old Boo-Spew. At least he's a CONSISTENT asshole!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM

"There goes another thread..."

Surely he is referring to your post of 22 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 10:16 AM

"There goes another thread..."
Not if everybody ignores him Stu (unless you gree with him, of course)
He is, by definition, an Anti-Semitic troll - that hes been pointed out and, as far as I'm concerned, there's an end t' it
Hopefully, the days of having these threads ended by trolls are over.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:41 AM

"... you attack the messenger. It's your well known ruse that everyone here is quite familiar with by now..."

Ha ha, hilarious. Until the rule changed to your disadvantage, we didn't know which bloody messenger you were. I suggest that if you don't want to be "attacked" you cut out the deception and dishonesty, apologise and stop the attacks yourself. You could start by saying sorry for calling people Jew haters. Hypocrite!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:09 AM

"but it would appear that you have some familiarity with them."
Only through you
They were traced and it was pointed out what they represented - you continued to draw from them
I suppse you are not going to respond to your constantly referring to critics as "antisemitic" despite the part of the definition which makes identifying Israeli policies as being the responsibility of the Jewish people an antisemitic act/
No
Thought not.
Back under your bridge methinks
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:09 AM

Never heard of or visited those sites in my life

Yeah, right, Boo. I believe ya - thousand's wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

There goes another thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM

hate-sites such as "White Supremist", and "Muslim Watch".
The lattter include one of the largest cut 'n pastes ever made to this forum - about five pages worth of Islamophobic hate mail.


Never heard of or visited those sites in my life but it would appear that you have some familiarity with them.

As to the list of Islamist terrorist attacks you refer to, as I recall an equivalency was being made between Christian and Islamist terrorism. I put up a list of Islamist terrorist attacks which you were not able to counter so, as is your usual tactic when presented with facts that you are unable to challenge, you attack the messenger. It's your well known ruse that everyone here is quite familiar with by now - I should think you are one of the few who actually believe that anyone still falls for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:33 AM

Nah, Jim, you have it wrong. He convinces akenaton!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:22 AM

"Nice to see that I am "getting through"."
What Steve just said - your behavior is meglomanic if tyou believe bllying gets through to anybody
You are convincing nobody and you will never silence them with your torrent of insults.
Get your act together- just pretend that we are all equals, if that's what it takes!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:15 AM

Re 06.34 AM post, Teribus. I've asked you once this week but you seem not to have replied: what planet are you on? This morning you've barked on about how you jumped in to rescue your wallowing duplicitous friends and now you claim to be "getting through." I'll tell you what. If any of your Thatcherite bile and your revisionism and your aggression and your bullying name-calling ever "gets through" to me I'll willingly turn myself in to the nearest brain surgery to have myself lobotomised. You really do think you are someone, don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:54 AM

"Carroll -"
My chosen name is Jim Carroll
If you can't have the courtesy to respect that, please address your remarks generally
We were asked by Joe Offer to stop name-calling some time ago - most of us complied - you seem hooked on your uncontrolable thuggish rudeness
What is it with you - bad bringing-up, or what?
Pack it in and stop making these discussions unpleasant with your arrogant behaviour
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM

"I have generally found Bobad's posts to be informative, interesting and pretty much on the money, "
Bobad is even worse than you, if that were possible
He persistently refers to anybody whoo criticises Israel and "antisemitic" he has stated that he won't open links to information supplied by others and he draws his own information from extremist hate-sites such as "White Supremist", and "Muslim Watch".
The lattter include one of the largest cut 'n pastes ever made to this forum - about five pages worth of Islamophobic hate mail.
He is widely recognised as a troll by anybody who has fallen victim to his vitriolic abuse.
Outrage at his behavior is one of the reasons he has stopped posting to this site
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:34 AM

Nice to see that I am "getting through".

I have generally found Bobad's posts to be informative, interesting and pretty much on the money, which is more than I can say for your contributions Shaw.

Carroll - Most of what you and the usual suspects find to complain about in what Akenaton has posted result from your deliberate misinterpretation and misunderstanding of what he has written, Keith A's posts are also treated to this obtuse and deliberate misinterpretation.

Both have raised points for discussion on this forum and included in their posts quotes from informed sources who they name and link to, yet to you the opinions of those informed sources are immediately seized upon as being the words, thoughts and opinions of the poster. You then put words into their mouths and take them to task over them - when the same trick is played on you, you squeal like stuck pigs.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:48 AM

"When the heck did this happen? "
Whatt happened to Ake was wrong, but he is the last person in the world to complain about personal abuse - I wouldn't like to be a "disease carrying" homosexual in his presence, nor would I like to be
an culturally implanted" Muslim in the presence of others.
It's about time we all cleaned up our acts towards each other rather than whingeing about being insulted.
Some time ago Joe Offer made a suggestion that some of us should start behaving like adults - this was aimed at me as much as others.
I made an effort, but am finding it incredibly difficult under the torrent of personal abuse I am getting from Teribus in particular.
Perhaps 'glass houses and throwing stones' should be the order of the day and we can get down to serious debate.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

Well, Teribus, your head must have been reeling with busted blood vessels as you typed that little tirade! 😂 You are a hypocrite. You criticise ME for not wading into a dispute between people of which I knew nothing. You extrapolate from one comment of mine into a fantasy world consisting of what you think I'm like (this week I've been a physical bully, an agitator who allies myself to people who stick needles in horses and now I make the bullets and let the foot soldiers take the flak. Perhaps you also think that I make up a set of triplets with Arthur Scargill and Red Robbo whose mother ought to have been sterilised at birth. 😂😂😂. In another thread you are doughtily defending bobad who has cheated this forum with a secret double identity and who only ever quotes, if he ever quotes at all to take a rest from sniping, from extreme right-wing sources. You were silent when he accused people here of being Jew-haters but no-one ever turned on YOU to accuse you of being complicit. So on that score alone you can just bugger off.

"Jumped into this a couple of years ago in an attempt to stop the constant mobbing..." my arse. How pompous can you get. Who do you think you are! What a shame it wasn't a running jump. It's never too late to take one, I politely suggest.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

"In my case the people took it upon themselves to report me and the forum to the police, made up complete untruths regarding a criminal record and PROVEN charges concerning cruelty to animals in my care."

When the heck did this happen? Did folk actually turn up where you lived?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

"Akenaton is perfectly correct and he "slanders" no-one."
Yes he does - he's been warned about it before
I suggest you read his permanent stream of abuse.
He has moved from jut being arrogant to permanent trollism
Behaviour like his has closed threads before now and if he persistes, it will do so again


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM

Thank you for that Stu, much appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM

Steve Shaw - 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

"do not connect me with Musket's specific criticisms of you. It was never anything to do with me and I never passed comment, either in support or otherwise"


Then maybe you should have done. Remaining silent is no defence, there is such a thing as tacit approval. These denials and protestations of "innocence" of yours Shaw. Learn all that as a "Union Activist" - very good at making the bullets, but never get caught actually firing them, you leave that to the foot-soldiers.

I jumped into this a couple of years ago in an attempt to stop the constant "mobbing" of specific individuals by a certain group on this forum and yes Shaw you were one of those doing the "mobbing".

Akenaton is perfectly correct and he "slanders" no-one. The vilification he and others have had to put up with has been a disgrace. The scatter-gun approach and tactic of throwing out baseless accusations and allegations and proudly proclaiming that there is no need or intention of substantiating any of them was despicable, as were the tactics used to get threads closed down where you and your "friends" thought you were "losing" the argument and your arguments were being exposed as weak and indefensible.

There is nothing more cowardly than what you and your "friends" have done over the past couple of years on this forum, and you and your "friends" have rightly been pulled up on it openly on threads and according to various posts warned privately by PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM

I don't think Terbius is a mindless troll at all, but he can be bloody rude. I like debating with him, and have a fair degree of respect for him; it'd be good to talk over a pint. I also think he knows which buttons to push to wind up the usual suspects.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:04 AM

Yes Raggytash, and I sincerely thank you for that.

All water under the bridge now as far as I am concerned, but it illustrates how a lynch-mob mentality can be formed.
When that is allowed to happen all meaningful debate is impossible.
Fortunately this forum is still a debating platform thanks in no small measure to Mr Offer.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:34 AM

"Mr T has not been abused in the same manner, is that he gives what he gets in no uncertain terms"
Teribus is a mindless troll who sneers and hurls abuse at anybody who disagrees with him
He offers no facts to any of his claims and refuses to link real information to any of his statements.
He is living proof to the saying, scratch a bully and you uncover a coward.
It's about time that people who abuse to the level he now does are warned off or stopped altogether - bring back the Mods
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

Excuse me. Kindly do not connect me with Musket's specific criticisms of you. It was never anything to do with me and I never passed comment, either in support or otherwise. Your remarks in this regard are slanderous, frankly. Yes it is serious stuff and it's about time you took it seriously instead of lashing out carelessly at people who are entirely innocent of the charges you make. I strongly advise you not to do it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 PM

I quite agree akenaton, libel should be dealt with promptly.

An approach to the small claims court might be a way forward if you are confident. The fact that this has been rolling for some time only adds to the suspicion that claims may have some substance.

I know not ..........either way.

If you recall I did say some considerable time ago that these allegations were out of order.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:50 PM

Come on Greg, it's serious stuff and a criminal offence in this country. Especially printing libel.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:04 PM

Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me.......


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

I would add that the probable reason that Mr T has not been abused in the same manner, is that he gives what he gets in no uncertain terms :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 03:40 PM

Well there certainly a clique trying to "get rid" of me for a number of years and Keith has been targeted consistently for the last couple of years.
In my case the people took it upon themselves to report me and the forum to the police, made up complete untruths regarding a criminal record and PROVEN charges concerning cruelty to animals in my care.
I was also stalked in my home village by these idiots, who did not realise that almost everyone here is a personal friend of mine.

They moved away some time ago, but while they were here they were supported by Steve and Jim amongst others.
I have most of the abuse and the support on file.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM

the crotchety, bad-tempered, humourless ould fart!

And those are his good qualities.........


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM

He'll be here any minute telling us that he speaks as he finds, the crotchety, bad-tempered, humourless ould fart!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:07 PM

This has been commented on before Stu and I applaud your contribution I do hope you will keep it up day by day, it's quite amusing.

Teribus seems to consider abuse utterly out of order when directed at himself, Keith, Ake or Bobad and has been very vocal about it to the extent of complaining to the Moderators I believe.

Yet he feels it is quite in order to abuse other people, namely Jim Steve, yourself and I often and at length.

Because of complaints some valuable contributors, reasoned, knowledgeable and humorous no longer contribute yet he insist that there is a clique trying to get rid of one insignificant individual.

As Steve, I and other try to tell him, no such clique exists nor has it ever done.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM

"Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally."


Stu's list of rational quotes from Teribus, Thursday edition:

"THE F**KER WHO FEEDS THEM - YOU HALFWIT PRAT."

"Only to a wanker like you Shaw."

"Oh and please, please, please let just one of you clowns chirp up... as I will paint the room with you.

etc etc etc


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 11:04 AM

"Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally."

The only people you appear to respect here are Keith, bobad and akenaton. You never show the slightest sign of respecting anyone with mildly differing points of view, let alone wildly differing ones. So you're a fine one to talk, aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally.

I also find the SNP take on membership of the EU rather strange if what they want is independence. Of course the SNP never in their wildest dreams thought that the EU Referendum would return a Leave vote, they pushed for Remain to provide an excuse should there be a "Leave" result to claim their criteria of there being a "significant change", never expecting it to happen and now that it has they find themselves in a bit of a pickle - the last thing in the world that the SNP want in the near to medium future is a second independence referendum because they know full well that they would lose it. Not a single point that they faltered on in the last referendum has been resolved and all the posturing in the world by Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP alters the fact that Scotland's greatest trading partner is the rest of the UK. Of course oil that was going to pay for everything according to the SNP is still languishing at $47 per barrel (To make good on SNP promises it has to be upwards of double that).


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

Either way Teribus let us not be sidetracked by arguing specific numbers

Even if we use the figures you acquired (and neither of us can be definitive at this stage)it STILL equates to less than 30% voting for a Union.

By anyone's reckoning that means that OVER 70% voted for a Independent Ireland.

Now you being the great believer in Democracy that you would have us believe that you are (my ar.......m)70% of the total voting population voted in a way you as an individual cannot cope with.

You will find any way at all possible in order to try and "justify" your little Englander and Empire stance.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:39 AM

I abandoned political ideology a long time ago, look what happens when it replaces facts and ideas: Brexit/Trump/Farage and a slew of other idiots on all sides of the political spectrum... I'm not sure about Corbyn yet but he seems constrained by his own political ideologies.

No-one cases about truth, fact or evidence anymore. Politicians lie through their teeth to win campaigns and everyone just shrugs and they're made Foreign Secretary. Personal integrity has become meaningless, our political system beyond satire and the people kicking out to make a point regardless of whether it harms them or their children.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

I do not believe that boris Mr Farage, or Mr Trump, would make any pretence of being socialists......they are no more true socialist than Stu or Steve.   :0)

I know many people even on this forum with whom is disagree strongly on some political matters yet admire their conduct in debate.

I think you need to get your ideology into perspective and read a little political theory.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM

" he's your type of socialist..." I nominate this for Quip Of The Week! Nice one, Stu! 😆


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:58 AM

I admire people of most political persuasions, I do not allow my views to blind me to their attributes.
The promotion of Boris to Foreign Secretary was a bit of a masterstroke from Mrs May.....on the other hand her jeering at Mr Corbyn while avoiding the question that he asked looked pathetic and beneath someone in the office of Prime Minister. The way that the phrase "Remind you of anyone" was delivered....with a vindictive leer, was disgraceful.
The problems afflicting the Labour Party did not begin with Mr Corbyn, but many years before when Labour was very electable indeed.

If we want a truly alternative opposition to the Conservative Party, then we must be aware that it will take at least a decade to set up.

Anything else, Liberal, Labour(Blairite) UKIP etc is not an alternative at all but an extension of the Capitalist System.

If we are all dedicated to the continuation of this system with its associated minority rights and other idiocies promoted by the media in place of governance based on what we can contribute to the common good allied to personal responsibility, then without doubt the Conservative Party will be the most efficient and the best bet in the circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

"I think Boris will make an excellent foreign secretary....he is likeable despite his politics"

Ake loves an establishment old Bullingdon liar because he's a bit fumbly, bumbly and funny. No surprise there, given he loves another xenophobic ex-city broker with deeply questionable morals.

You gotta be a Trump fan Ake, he's your type of socialist!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:26 AM

he is likeable despite his politics.

According to you, Ake, so's your hero The Trumpshit.

So what?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM

I think Boris will make an excellent foreign secretary....he is likeable despite his politics. Even John Kerry who rarely cracks a smile seemed to take to the man, I'm certain he will have the same effect on Mr Putin or any of the other world leaders he is obliged to deal with.

In regard to Scotland, the two main reasons that a majority voted to remain, were that the full effects of unregulated immigration have not been felt this side of the border.....AND more importantly, the SNP spent a large amount of money and effort trying to persuade their supporters to vote remain. I was bombarded by e mails and pamphlets for weeks, I received no propaganda from the leave side. If this seems idiotic from a party who's raison d'etre is for Scotland to become an INDEPENDENT nation, then as a supporter of Independence, I would have to agree with you.

The SNP wrongly used EU membership as a plank of their campaign in the Independence referendum and were stuck with the consequences...they are now deeply in the shit, and it will not be possible to construct a new political platform for many years.
A big mistake from the two little fishes!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:49 AM

"1,525,910 votes registered?

I chose to ignore that figure because the following are the election results by Party in the 1918 General Election in Ireland:

Sinn Féin - 476,087
Irish Unionist - 257,314
Irish Parliamentary - 220,837
Labour Unionist - 30,304
Independent Nationalist — 8,183
Independent Labour — 659
Independent — 436

Total number of votes cast = 1,015,515


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM

Raggy the election and votes cast in Ireland in 1918 related to a General Election.

The votes cast on the 23rd June 2016 in the UK were related to a Referendum.

Hate to burst that little bubble you've rather disingenuously constructed but the two are not the same thing at all and well you know it.

Question: As a result of their vote in 1918 was a separate Parliament set up in Dublin? If the answer to that question is Yes, then the electorate got what they wanted.

The fact that this separate assembly was set up unilaterally by the nationalists and was not recognised by the Westminster Parliament was all part of Sinn Fein's plan they fully realised that that would be the case - Setting up a separate Parliament was not their goal their goal was independence by force of arms. They got their war of independence and they negotiated a settlement that some of their number were unhappy about so they then went and had a Civil War that killed thousands and caused immense damage to their fledgling nation.

When Sinn Fein set up their Parliament, the Unionists up in Ulster set up theirs, the Civil War in the South instigated by Eamon de Valera showed everybody that the Republicans in Ireland would not accept any democratic decision that did not accord with their wishes, that put the cap on it as far as the Unionists were concerned and ensured that Ireland would be partitioned.

That is what all those people voted for in 1918 Raggy.

The electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland were asked one simple question on the 23rd June 2016 related to whether or not we should remain in the EU or leave it - the electorate chose the latter.

"1,525,910 votes registered?

I chose to ignore that figure because the following are the election results by Party in the 1918 General Election in Ireland:

Sinn Féin Éamon de Valera 476,087
Irish Unionist Edward Carson 257,314
Irish Parliamentary John Dillon 220,837
Labour Unionist None 30,304


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

"You are jumping fences before you come to them."

So... you think the Foreign Secretary will have nothing to do with Brexit? Won't be off trying to secure deals abroad?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM

" Apples and Oranges Raggy your 79% does not represent 79% of the votes cast, it represents the percentage of the total number of seats won."

Er No Teribus, I earlier posted (which you have chosen to ignore)

"BUT if we are just to count numbers of the 1,525,910 votes registered just 315,394 had voted for a Union the remainder and by far and away a huge majority had voted for the Republic and Irish independence"

With regard to the recent referendum you have told us in no uncertain terms that those who voted Remain i.e the minority will have to live with it or have to deal with it, get used to it.

Unsurprisingly you are not giving that same response to a vote you disagree with. Now what was it you said to Steve Shaw, something about sauce for the goose and the gander.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

"...wealth has got nothing whatsoever to do with equality."

Christ on a bike. Whst bloody planet are you on? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM

Raggytash - 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

"Arthur Griffiths stated BEFORE the election that those from Sinn Fein and the Parliamentary Party, if elected, would form an Irish National Assembly. He stated BEFORE the election that they would NOT take their seats in Westminster."


Anything in their manifesto about fomenting a war?

Anything in their manifesto about basically declaring open season on the RIC?

"Thus the choice of the majority of the people, a majority you have defended so vigorously on here, was an Independent body to govern Ireland."

And that Raggy is what they got and what they would have got had those elected had taken their seats in Westminster under the Government of Ireland Act 1920. The Ireland that was given its independence in 1922 under an Act of Parliament consisted of all 32 counties, within 24 hours the Ulster Parliament exercised its right to remain part of the UK. Now if it was OK for Griffiths to decide on Independence then it was equally OK for Craig to exercise his right to remain as that is what his electors wanted.

"A majority of 79% to 21% which even you should have to acknowledge is greater than 51.9% to 48.1%."

Apples and Oranges Raggy your 79% does not represent 79% of the votes cast, it represents the percentage of the total number of seats won. Sinn Fein won only 46.9% of the votes cast nation wide. The Party that came second to them was the Unionist Party. The 51.9% and 48.1% do accurately reflect the individual votes of the electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland there were no separate referenda in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England - just the one covering the entire country. The result was that the electorate chose to leave the EU.

"Allow me to remind you of a post you placed on the 25 June responding to a post from Jim Carroll clearly stating that just because regions of the UK had voted Remain the overall vote was to Leave.

Jim had posted "Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

YOU REPLIED

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."


And I still stand by that as a mere statement of fact. No separate referenda held so as with most things Jim Carroll concludes what he said was inaccurate, misrepresentative and wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM

YOU can assume what you like about the future Stu, just please do not present it as though it were already an established fact David Davies has been given the job of overseeing our departure from the EU, as far as I am aware he has not decided on anything as yet.

You are jumping fences before you come to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:04 AM

Ah more twaddle from Jom:

Jim Carroll - 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM

1: So as "No national liberation fighters put their fight to a vote" then you can have no objection whatsoever that "the murderous crew" took advantage of the lawful political process to hold elections and form their own Parliament under the 1920 Government of Ireland Act - at least Jom they were a damned sight more honest and open about what they were doing than their "Republican" counterparts in the South.

2: "Did the Brits put sending the murderous Tans into Ireland to the vote?

No why would they? Sinn Fein openly condoned the murder of RIC Officers and did absolutely nothing to uphold law and order in the country - remember they actually wanted a war - that was the part of their plan that they did not let those who voted for them in on. How many lives did that cost again Jom? Then of course because they had ballsed up right royally and completely failed to get their "united Ireland" they then threw the toys out of the pram and insisted on having a Civil War that killed a few thousand more Irish men women and children. All of this in the immediate aftermath of the greatest bloodbath in history.

3: "Were the illegal and unconstitutional executions that eventually put paid to British rule in Ireland put to the vote?

Yes they were actually, the vote of those sitting on the Court-Martial Panel. The executions were neither illegal or unconstitutional. Those who plan and attempt an armed insurrection and collude with the enemy in time of war, who declare themselves as representing a nation without mandate who form alliances with the enemy and parade in uniform and declare themselves to be a National Army raised to fight the armed forces of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, cannot in all conscience demand to be treated as civilians subject to criminal prosecution and due process once their rebellion has failed with the country under Martial law.

4: "Was the partitioning of Ireland that is still filling body bags put to the vote?"

Yes it was - "The 1921 general election was explicitly fought on the issue of partition, being in effect a referendum on approval of the concept of a Northern Ireland administration."

The sad and unfortunate fact that body bags are still being filled Jom stems from the "mythology of 1916" which you so openly applaud and celebrate that gives oxygen to the mistaken belief that the gun has pride of place in Irish Republican/Nationalist politics. The GFA, the subsequent referendum and the watershed changes made to the Republic of Ireland's Constitution have robbed all such idiots who support the "men of the gun" of any legitimacy or claim to any mandate from the people of Ireland.

5: "Ireland was never "granted independence" - it won partial independence and neither the British nor the Irish electorate ever asked to vote on the issue."

Well formally and technically it was "granted independence" that was what all that palaver related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty was all about:

"The Irish Free State as contemplated by the treaty came into existence when its constitution became law on 6 December 1922 by a royal proclamation giving the force of law to the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922."

The Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 was an Act of Parliament passed by the Westminster Parliament Jom, I didn't make it up it exists and represents historical fact irrespective of whether you chose to believe it or not. How much of a complete and utter idiot you wish to make of yourself is of no interest or importance to me.

6: "Are you going to comment on the wealth gap in Britain?

Why should I? Do I have to? My statement after all was - "Greater equality nowadays than ever before." - care to explain to us all why equality means wealth to you my little scouse Anglophobe? What about the wealth gap in the USA? China? The Republic of Ireland? Or anywhere else for that matter. If you wish to discuss equality then do so, wealth has got nothing whatsoever to do with equality.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM

"you have no idea at all who will be our negotiators so please do not try to attempt to pre-empt the situation by making groundless claims "

One assumes the establishment shill. Brexiteer and serial liar our Prime Minister made Foreign Secretary will be involved at some point.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

Arthur Griffiths stated BEFORE the election that those from Sinn Fein and the Parliamentary Party, if elected, would form an Irish National Assembly. He stated BEFORE the election that they would NOT take their seats in Westminster.

Thus the choice of the majority of the people, a majority you have defended so vigorously on here, was an Independent body to govern Ireland.

A majority of 79% to 21% which even you should have to acknowledge is greater than 51.9% to 48.1%.

Allow me to remind you of a post you placed on the 25 June responding to a post from Jim Carroll clearly stating that just because regions of the UK had voted Remain the overall vote was to Leave.

Jim had posted "Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

YOU REPLIED

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."

In 1918 the country of 32 counties of Ireland vote for a Irish National Assembly by a far greater majority than 51.9% to 48.1%


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM

"but they did not put that to the voters."
No national liberation fighters put their fight to a vote
Did the Brits put sending the murderous Tans into Ireland to the vote?
Were the illegal and unconstitutional executions that eventually put paid to British rule in Ireland put to the vote?
Was the partitioning of Ireland that is still filling body bags put to the vote?
Was the murderous crew who introduced the gun back into Irealnd and allowed to set up a persecutiong State put to the vote?
Don't be stupid
Ireland was never "granted independence" - it won partial independence and neither the British nor the Irish electorate ever asked to vote on the issue.
Are you going to comment on the wealth gap in Britain?
Suppose not!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:54 AM

Raggytash - 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

Well Raggy, I too didn't really expect any other response from you as you don't seem to understand the difference between voting in a General Election and voting in a Referendum - tell me Raggy, have you always had this penchant for insisting on comparing apples to oranges?

Those elected to the Parliament of Westminster from Irish constituencies who refused to take their seats in 1918 did what they felt was right for their cause, i.e. sanction the murder of policemen and anyone else wearing a uniform bearing a crown, they were fully intent on having a war but they did not put that to the voters. The newly elected members from the rest of the United Kingdom sat in session and debated and passed the Government of Ireland Bill 1920 into law. This granted Home Rule to both the Southern Irish counties and to the Northern Irish six counties. The Republicans in the South had their "War of Independence" which was fought to a stalemate which first resulted in a truce being declared in July 1921 and peace talks that led to the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed on the 6th December 1921. The fact that the 1920 Government of Ireland Act had brought about the creation of a duly constituted Parliament in Ulster passed over the heads of the "Republicans" at about 40,000ft, but having been created it gave the Ulster Parliament a say in what was to happen next when all 32 counties of Ireland were granted independence. One of the clauses in the Anglo-Irish Treaty granted Ulster the right to opt out of becoming part of what was known as the Irish Free State. All of the above was brought about by people following what they saw as being Parliamentary procedure resulting from the process of voting in elections - not a single referendum vote involved, so where and what is your point of comparison between the regional results of a General Election in 1918 (A vote to decide who represents you in Parliament) and a National Referendum vote in 2016 (Where the electorate of the whole country is asked one specific question)?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

I didn't really expect any other response Teribus.

Arthur Griffiths said BEFORE the election that any elected candidate to the nationalist side would NOT take their place in Westminster but would form a Irish National Assembly.

The people knew that and voted accordingly. SEVENTY NINE PERCENT OF THE ENTIRE ELECTORATE WHO VOTED took that option.

Not a mere 51.9% whose choice you have defended many times on this thread.

The will of the "people" you are so proud of defending in the recent referendum doesn't count when the will of the people goes against something you have so vehemently argued for.

Yet another example of your complete and utter callous disregard to other peoples viewpoint and your complete and utter disregard for democracy that doesn't fit your preconceived ideas.

As I said no surprise at all, still we all have to live to the Brexit vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM

Care to let us in on any country in 1800 who held plebiscites Greg F.

The Irish Parliament voted on and passed the 'Act of Union (Ireland) 1800', and the British Parliament voted on and passed the 'Union with Ireland Act 1800'


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:39 PM

In 1801 Ireland became part of the United Kingdom as a result of the Acts of Union 1800

Was that the result of a plebicite in which all the Irish were able to vote?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:09 PM

Raggytash - 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM

Irrelevant twaddle Raggy.

Those elected were elected as part of a British General Election - note that Raggy, the fact that they decided not to take their seats at Westminster is actually the full extent of their protest.

In 1801 Ireland became part of the United Kingdom as a result of the Acts of Union 1800. To dissolve that Union requires an Act to be passed by the Westminster Parliament.

The same was true and would be true for the last and any future independence referendum for Scotland, for that referendum to be held it requires an Act of Parliament to be passed by Westminster, for the Union to be dissolved an Act of Parliament has to be passed by Westminster.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 11:32 AM

That of course should read that 79% voted for a Republic


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM

It is interesting that Teribus states that as a majority voted to leave the EU the rest of the people will just have to put up with it and it is true we will.

However in the General Election of 1918 in Ireland when Arthur Griffiths said that if elected they would not take their seats in the houses of Parliament, but instead they would form an Irish National Assembly the Irish people voted 73 Republicans, 6 Parliamentary Party (Also Nationalist)out of a total of 105 seats. Just 26 seats polled a majority for the Unionists.

BUT if we are just to count numbers of the 1,525,910 votes registered just 315,394 had voted for a Union the remainder and by far and away a huge majority had voted for the Republic and Irish independence.

79& had voted for a Republic 21% had voted for the Union.

This is rather more than the 51.9% to 48.1% of the Referendum. The British of course, as is their wont, refused to recognise the Irish National Assembly despite a clear mandate from the Irish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 06:51 PM

Stu, please name those who will be charged with participation in the negotiations that will govern the UK leaving the EU.

If you cannot do that then please consign all such emotive and irrelevant twaddle such as:

"What I don't accept is that the Brexiteers should have full control over how this is achieved, as they have no more right to negotiate on the nation's behalf than anyone else and have showed a certain lack of rigour and nuance in the campaign (although the Gov't wasn't a whole lot better)."

To the dustbin - you have no idea at all who will be our negotiators so please do not try to attempt to pre-empt the situation by making groundless claims - Article 50 has not yet been triggered base your arguments on reality not hypothesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 01:16 PM

"Greater equality nowadays than ever before."
WEALTH GAP IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 08:09 AM

I fully accept the fact we're leaving the EU, so do most Remainers. What I don't accept is that the Brexiteers should have full control over how this is achieved, as they have no more right to negotiate on the nation's behalf than anyone else and have showed a certain lack of rigour and nuance in the campaign (although the Gov't wasn't a whole lot better). As the Brexiteers also seem to hate the experts we need to negotiate the deals we will have to make then it is essential we have a range of positions in our teams.

"it would be a two way street and that as they sold more to us than we did to them then we would gain in any tariff war"

A tariff war? Why provoke such a reaction? It would be rash to go into any negotiations with such an arrogant attitude as the Brexiteers seem to display. We know you hate foreigners, but you have to work with them and that includes the Europeans. Belligerent Little Britaineers being all bluster and puffy chested are the last thing we need, and most of the country has moved on from such anachronistic attitudes. In the real world we're not an empire any more, just one more nation becoming more insular and more isolationist.


"Because the EU negotiating machinery is too cumbersome and too complicated each of the EU's 28 member states have to individually agree before a deal is made"

Precisely the reason why the Brexit negotiations won't be the walkover the Brexiteers seem to think they will be. Our negotiating position is not as strong as some of us were led to believe, and the idea we will have access to the single market without the free movement is a fantasy, pure and simple.

Life is far more complex and unpredictable than some of your erstwhile leaders would have you believe. This will be long, drawn out and probably rather painful.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 07:10 AM

The "Oh goody" remark was in response to your rather idiotic take on the fact that tariffs might be levied, the way you described it they could only be levied on our goods - I merely pointed out to you that it would be a two way street and that as they sold more to us than we did to them then we would gain in any tariff war.

It is blindingly obvious to any sentient human being that our disengagement from the EU will be complex, which is why I have said all along that any negotiations will be aimed at reaching a compromise solution to the mutual benefit of all. The EU will not seek to "punish the UK" to do so would be against its own interests.

Not so much a case of "Brexiteers" gloating Stu, more a case of those who voted to "Remain" proving unwilling to accept that the UK voted to leave the EU. But that too is something that the "Remainers" refuse point blank to accept - we re leaving the EU we are not leaving Europe or turning our backs on it.

Free trade agreements are an anathema to the EU as they challenge the inherent "protectionism" of the EU. One astounding fact that came out of the EU Referendum campaign was that Switzerland and Singapore have each individually negotiated trade deals with other countries in the world worth five times the deals negotiated by the EU. The EU has no trade deal in place with any of the nations of this world with the highest growth rates. Why? Because the EU negotiating machinery is too cumbersome and too complicated each of the EU's 28 member states have to individually agree before a deal is made - in short it is as achievable as herding cats or pushing water up a hill.

This point of yours to the following comment on something said by Akenaton:

This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way."

At the cost of people's jobs? Their quality of life? Equality?


I would point out to you that according to the ONS there are more people in work in the UK today that at any point in its history - so what is the cost in terms of people's jobs?

As to quality of life? Purely judging what I have seen in the course of my own life (Grandparents generation; my own parents generation; my generation and my own children's generation) indicates a constant and steady improvement on all levels.

Greater equality nowadays than ever before.

Being in the EU or not has no effect whatsoever on the NHS in the UK, we had it before we joined and we will continue to have it after we leave. What standard we have in the NHS is entirely dependent upon us and if that means paying more in taxes then that is what we will have to do. But one undeniable fact is that as we are one of the eleven members of the EU who pay in more than we take out, just by leaving and keeping everything the same we gain what was our former net contribution - and that money can be allocated wherever it is needed - the choice is ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

"Oh goody if they charge tariffs on our goods and services, does that mean that mean we get to charge tariffs on theirs?"

Well, it's that simple isn't it? Despite what your leaders told you, the process of Brexit is neither simple or easy, and blurting out childish sneers might work in the absolutist world of Brexiteering, but the reality is far more nuanced and complex than that. If brexiteers were interested in healing divisions instead of gloating over their 'victory' then we might actually get somewhere. You're going to have to temper your expectations a bit, prepare for Brexit lite.


" Do you really think any shop, or restaurant owner acts in such a manner to put obstacles in the way of a good customer? "

Well, a business person has to operate within the parameters and conditions imposed upon them by government, and they are subject to competition. In our capitalist society, competition is seen as a good thing (and of course it is, up to a point) but it needs to be fair and it needs to be lawful, and hopefully ethical. When we leave the EU our trading partners will become our competitors too, unencumbered by a regulatory framework that levels the playing field to allow countries to compete equally; this encourages diversity and more diversity means a more robust economy. Take this away, and you;re in a free-for-all, which is what we will be upon Bretix. May has to try to insult us from the worst of these effects, we can't simply leap into the unknown without careful thought, something the Brexit leaders (and their voters, reading this thread) seem to have given little thought to at all.

Free trade agreements are a series of deals, and each one has to be negotiated separately or you gang together to increase your bargaining power, and now we're out of the gang our bargaining power is much reduced; this is really simple stuff anyone who runs a business knows. Before we leave the gang, we've got to negotiate the best possible terms and this will mean some big compromises.


"This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way."

At the cost of people's jobs? Their quality of life? Equality?



"Any time anyone from the liberal-left starts wittering on about protecting the NHS you know that they are losing the argument, they invoke it like a lucky charm."

More sneering, well done. The NHS represents what is best about our society; hard-working, caring and honest people dedicated to helping people and alleviating suffering, free for,all and paid for from taxation. It represents some of the best medical care in the world and the truth is, if you need it you'll use it and be grateful. It's the one thing that gives most people any faith in this country, and it should be protected and fought for with passion. Giving it over to predatory outside interests is not only bad for all of us who rely on the NHS but also would demonstrate the demise of our so-called 'British' values of decency and fairness. My doctor friends in the US are amazed we would ever even consider dismantling it for a US-style system, where people die from treatable illnesses because they have no money, or suffer for years for a want of prescription drugs or orations they cannot afford.

If we can't protect the NHS, a force for good born out of the suffering if the Second World War, then what is left worth protecting?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 04:00 AM

I would accept EEA membership as second best as long as UK accepts its responsibilities - conforming with EU regulation, free movement of people, continuing to contribute to EU budget etc etc - but without the right to a say on what these responsibilities are.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 02:39 AM

on the other hand Germany who runs the show, exports 20 per cent of their cars to the uk, do not want to lose that market.
i hope cmmon sense prevails and the UK is allowed to be in EEA.
there are other trade alternatives, but in my opinion it is better to be trading with countries geographically closer than the commonwealth or god forbid China, a country that to my knowledge has litlle respect for its workforce or the environment, a country that has been illegally occupying Tibet since the 1950s, a country that has boasted some of the most murdrous regimes of the 20th century.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM

Nobody is going to punish the UK, eh? So you think the EU is going to be falling over backwards to give us great deals? Well there's something you need to know, Mr Lack-of-realpolitik. An awful lot of the 27 remaining nations are watching this with interest to see if there is something in it for them if they also choose to leave. Well them damn Germans and French were not born yesterday. They will make leaving as difficult as possible for us. In fact, it's perfectly possible that we won't leave at all. Pour encourager les autres, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:14 PM

""While we are always present for crucial votes, Britain has normally already been sold down the river by the British government long before the parliament votes on what is a foregone conclusion."


Did you not understand Steves' post ! ? !


"Your hero Farage has the 745th best voting attendance record in the European Parliament. There are 746 MEPs. The only one with a worse record is a man who has suffered long-term ill-health that has prevented him from attending. One could suggest that the way to resist the EU "from within" would be to bloody well turn up"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

"About the daftest statement I think I have ever read "
Really?
Did you here about the English itinerant wirork forece with nowhere to live,
Or the lazy British Teachers, nurses, tradesmen, who thought it was wrong to be forced to work stacking shelves in Sainsburys for a pittance
Or the Irish who really didn't want independence but who had to be tricked into it.
Or the sales of ammunition to Syria which never happaened, or were refused a licence, or were granted a licence but never sent, or were the wrong size.... (or another three or four reasons).
Or Liverpudlians living in riches in 1914
Or Democratic Britain in the 1840s.....
Or any of the other pratish ideas you've tried to bully through and then done a runner from?
You have led a very sheltered life.
Still having trouble at home, so you have to come here and show us what a big boy you are?
Are you ever going to actually present some proof for your stupid arguments?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:24 PM

"many in the EU won't be minded to be particularly accommodating now"

Now why would that be the case? We buy more from them than they do from us. Do you really think any shop, or restaurant owner acts in such a manner to put obstacles in the way of a good customer? Bloody idiotic.

Any time anyone from the liberal-left starts wittering on about protecting the NHS you know that they are losing the argument, they invoke it like a lucky charm.

"Then we need to deal with tariffs for each individual country we trade with"

Oh goody if they charge tariffs on our goods and services, does that mean that mean we get to charge tariffs on theirs? And as they sell more to us who collects the more from tariffs us or them?

You've forgotten little things like the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and France and problems with the Euro - none of them gone away and they are unlikely to in the near future.

Nobody in Europe is going to punish the UK for exercising a right that is specifically mentioned in the Treaty - THE RIGHT OF A STATE TO LEAVE - That may well be way you ideologues would act, cutting your nose off to spite your face, but it is not what reasonable, rational people do.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:54 PM

Nothing can be made to work, unless there is a will to make it so.

The EU had decades and it still doesn't work.

I honestly think you people would love to see the country fail, so that your idiotic ideology remains intact. At this moment in time there are much more important things than "minority rights"

This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:14 PM

"Calm down, all will be well, in a few months time all this will just seem like a bad dream.....you will love it getting to know all these nice trading partners from all over the world......"

Seriously? You think we're just going to drift into a whole slew of trade agreements in a few months? You think we're going to negotiate out of the EU within a few months? You think Article 50 will be triggered in a few months?

May will have little choice to kick the ball into the long grass for a while. We won't gain access to the single market without freedom of movement, and many in the EU won't be minded to be particularly accommodating now. All those Easter European states have a veto, and they're not as easily brought as your leaders told you and they don't care for our world 'status' (such as it was).

To get the trade deals we need (no deals, no investment) we'll probably ending up agreeing to everyone's demands to get a trade deal with them and get royally fucked over at the same time. These deals will be heavily incentivised, lobbied for very aggressively and those offering them will not give two shades about our desire to maintain an NHS for the good of our people, or any of those wonderful 'British' values we're taking back for ourselves and make our country great. Then we need to deal with tariffs for each individual country we trade with, subsidies that we now have to find ourselves from farmers, regions, etc to the complete lack of EU money coming into our cities to regenerate them etc. We need to find the money for the grants we will loose to fund the ground-breaking research we do in our universities (where things are not good following the vote). Boris and Nige lied on their bus. Lied.

You can believe all this flam from the likes of Boris and Farage, but making their Brexit fantasy world a reality is not going to be easy... as the Canadians, who are seven years into trade negotiations with the Eu and still a ways off from ratification. The sheer amount of negotiation to be done is boggling, and we have very few negotiators.

The thing is, Brexit won't be some utopian dream of flag-waving nationalists and the forgotten working class because it's they who will suffer. There is so much to fix and Theresa may knows full well much of this exceeds the mandate of the government; she'll have to go to the country in 2020 to get the go-ahead for any deal with the EU from the voters, and a lot can change in that time. So far we've had little (if any) psotive action from the Brexiteers, and those of us who didn't vote for leaving but have as equal a stake in this country as any leaver will be holding them to account. Not to do so would be to go against what we've stood for so long in this country and what the Leavers forgot in their hurry to go; we have a history of progressive and radical politics which has always challenged the status quo to improve the lot of the ordinary man.

Brexiteers, prepare to be challenged. For years and years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM

What opinion did you expect?

Yours, as usual, Professor.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:43 AM

Nigel Farage, the Ukip MEP said, "Any similarity to democracy in the European Parliament is purely accidental. Ukip MEPs spend more time helping constituents whose lives and livelihoods have been ruined by EU legislation.
"While we are always present for crucial votes, Britain has normally already been sold down the river by the British government long before the parliament votes on what is a foregone conclusion."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM

Greg, Boris is a right wing politician and the Guardian is a left wing paper.
What opinion did you expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:03 AM

I cannot help but feel that Boris has been set up to fail.

One stupid/misguided comment or action and he could be out on his ear and into the cold.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM

Ah so someone to carry on the traditions and example as set by the late great Lord George Brown.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

And speaking of entertaining clowns, I give you the new Fortigh Secretary!

"Last week's announcement that European Union exit campaign leader Boris Johnson would become Britain's foreign secretary was greeted in global capitals as a joke or a twisted insult. Such is the depth and duration of Johnson's columnist-clever insults, international reaction to his appointment has been overwhelmingly negative. Johnson is widely viewed as inherently untrustworthy, a buffoon bizarrely elevated to become Britain's premier representative abroad."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/boris-johnson-foreign-secretary-view-from-abroad


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM - Nope.

Steve Shaw - 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM - Since its creation the EU has existed as a cosy club designed to keep Germany and France sweet - they run the EU and they interpret the rules as best benefit themselves.

Steve Shaw - 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM - "Well said" Shaw? SPB's post backs up precisely what I said - Out of the EU WE get to decide what VAT is.

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM - Yes he does Raggy as do every single one of the 750 other MEPs - that is what they are entitled to as part of this great "gravy train" - but look at the bright side, seeing as how you object to it so much - in a short while WE won't be paying anything towards it.

Jim Carroll - 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM - Unelected?? How the hell do you think he became an MEP you Prat I think last time out in 2014 some 750,000 odd voted for UKIP in the South East England EU Constituency he represents.

Jim Carroll - 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

"as an unattached MEP he had no responsibility to "deliver" anything without the authority of parliament."


About the daftest statement I think I have ever read - not surprising really considering who wrote it - Parliamentary democracy Jom - what about the man's responsibility to deliver what he promised those who voted for him - oddly enough the world MIGHT be a far better place if more elected representatives followed his example and did the same.

Steve Shaw - 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM - Turn up, wasting his time and our money to do what? Please supply one instance where his absence and the want of his vote would have changed anything one iota. But as Akenaton has stated a couple of times now - Nigel Farage arrived in the EU Parliament and stated he would take the UK out - he has managed to do that and his greatest ally in achieving that aim has been the arrogance, the idiocy, the smugness and the inefficiency of the EU itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:42 AM

Give the country time Jim. Its only been a couple of weeks of blind terror from the establishment.....Calm down, all will be well, in a few months time all this will just seem like a bad dream.....you will love it getting to know all these nice trading partners from all over the world......why, some of them may even be family, long forgotten.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:32 AM

"Mr Farage was the instigator of the campaign, a campaign which has been extremely effective. "
In breaking up the UK, closing the door on employment for British people prepared to travel, destabalising British economy and industry and dividing the British people - well done Mr Farage and well done the hate-filled twots who supported him.
Sounds, from his voting record, that he really put an effort into what he was paid to do, but I suppose you'll have as much courage to respond to that as you have to he shit-storm you people have created for Britain.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM

Mr Farage was the instigator of the campaign, a campaign which has been extremely effective.

He even manage to convince many Ex Labour voters to join in and support a cause which is way above party politics.

Armbands? they were concealed wristbands, and I do not support Fascism or terrorise people......Mr Farage and his family have received dozens of death threats from people not unlike you Jim.
I have never heard Mr Farage contend that immigrants who have arrived here legally should be sent home....he has always said that we can never "have control" over who comes here or in what numbers till we exit the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM

Your hero Farage has the 745th best voting attendance record in the European Parliament. There are 746 MEPs. The only one with a worse record is a man who has suffered long-term ill-health that has prevented him from attending. One could suggest that the way to resist the EU "from within" would be to bloody well turn up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

"He is an elected MEP."
And as an unattached MEP he had no responsibility to "deliver" anything without the authority of parliament.
He's taken the money and run, as do all of his type
"He has received nothing that he is not fully entitled to."
Neither has Neil Kinnock - whether either entitlement is justified is a moot point.
He was elected on a racist ticket - if that's how you people wish Britain to be recognised..... what does it say about you as British citizens (you've told us that anyway)'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:10 AM

He is an elected MEP.
He was elected to resist EU from within.
He has received nothing that he is not fully entitled to.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM

"his job is done he has delivered"
So an unelected, beer swilling fascist moron had a part in the decision to leave the E.U. - and a racist, homophobic follower has the nerve to complain about unelected bureaucrats!!
The die is cast, and Britain must live with the consequences, but the Brexits here feel no need to even respond to those consequences, not even to defend them.
Dishonest, irresponsible and cowardly, all in one bundle
Perhaps you can tell us when you mean to send them all back Ake - have you stopped any on the street yet and asked them when they are going home - or don't you have the bottle to do that even?
Maybe you can start dropping reminders through their la etter boxes, or asking them why they aren't wearing their armbands.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 05:18 PM

As I have mentioned already, Mr Farage would have been given no part in implementing the decision to leave the EU, his job is done he has delivered, it is up to the government to bring forward Brexit.... and it will be done whether you like it or not.

The EU is rapidly becoming a basket case.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:29 PM

"but he deserves respect in shedloads"

No he doesn't. He's a con artist, a xenophobe a regressive and he's the lot of you hook line and sinker, then scarpered when the real work starts.

You've been done up like a kipper son.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

And then he f**ked off to collect his 95,000 Euro a year as an MEO plus his 43,000 Euro a year allocation for unspecified expenses PLUS his other claimed for expenses ALL from the very body he objects so much to.

I could do that "gissa a job"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:04 PM

They are all moot points, the die is cast, people no matter how they voted must move on.
The situation in Turkey aught to make us thank our lucky stars for Mr Farage without whom there would have been no Brexit. I don't suppose he will get any respect from the sore losers here, but he deserves respect in shedloads......Have you actually watched him in debate? He cuts them all down. He knows the facts whether they be politically correct or not. He said he would get the UK out of the EU and he did so spectacularly.

Regardless of his politics, are you unable to appreciate principle and bravery?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:15 PM

Purchase Tax Rate was 25% immediately prior to the introduction of VAT on 1/4/73, which, of course, replaced Purchase Tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM

Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 12:55 PM

I didn't mention VAT, but as you brought it up, contribution is fixed at 0.3% of VAT revenue - ie 0.06% of the net charge of taxable supplies in UK. The fixed contribution is standard for all EU states, and the net based on individual states' choice of VAT rates. So by exiting we could reduce VAT to 19.94%. Below this would result in a reduction in retained tax revenue which would be at the expense of public spend or ability for deficit reduction.

Also it is misleading to associate EU standardisation with imposition of indirect taxation. Before VAT we had purchase tax which at once stage was charges at over 38%. Unfortunately I was only 12 or 13 when it was phased out and as such I am yet to find a web page that explains its mechanisms.

With regards to making choices - I do not have problems with making decisions as part of a wider consensus with care towards how my decisions have an impact on others and only 0.25% of decisions in the council of ministers not going UK's way is not a bad track record.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

"After Germany the UK was the EU's biggest contributor..."

Which is why Germany has done SO badly in the EU, why its economy is nosediving SO steeply and why everybody in Germany is SO miserable about being in the EU...

Mind you, they didn't have a Thatcher to shut down their manufacturing industries and turn them into a nation of unregulated banking spivs and insurance salesmen...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM

On the Brexit Battle Bus it said:

"WE SEND THE EU £350 MILLION A WEEK: LET'S FUND OUR NHS INSTEAD, VOTE LEAVE"

Quite clear, quite unequivocal the NHS were to get a cash windfall, not we MIGHT give them a few bob extra.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM

Matter of CHOICE SPB-Cooperator and who gets to make the choices that affect us.

Out of the EU, UK politicians can make decisions and choices that affect the UK and only the UK.

Inside the EU, we a re forced to accept and comply with decisions and choice that may well not be in our interests.

Out of the EU, it is far, far easier for the UK to make trade deals with whoever it wishes to, we do not have to get unanimous agreement of 27 other Governments before we can sign up. The world is a larger trading partner than Europe.

VAT was the tax introduced in the UK when it joined the Common Market to pay our share into the EEC's coffers. Now that we are leaving the EU we can do one or more of three things:

1: Scrap it altogether
2: Retain it and immediately profit by the net amount we pay to Europe (After Germany the UK was the EU's biggest contributor, so if we maintain VAT at current levels we get to keep what we previously paid to Europe)
3: Keep the VAT system but rejig it and tailor it suit our requirements.

"the basis of the promise that the EU contribution would directly fund the health service, nothing else."

No such "promise" was ever made, the statement made regarding hospitals, etc, were illustrative of what the use the savings from not paying into the EU MIGHT be put to in the UK - NOT what they would be used for.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 06:58 AM

I object to paying subsidies to farmers. No-one gives a shit if my business goes to the wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

OK, all the LIARS who cited the threat of TTIP as a reason for leaving EU, how do you explain this as part of Davis's exit blueprint?

"The UK should "accelerate" the agreement of the controversial Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership deal with the US"

Another one:

"Britain should start to wean itself off grants from Brussels well before the UK finally severs its links to the EU and instead pay grants directly to farmers and fishermen"

Out of taxpayers money? - So why should farmers, and fishermen get a single penny while we are still contributing to CAP? And after, why should they get a penny, as we are leaving on the basis of the promise that the EU contribution would directly fund the health service, nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:29 PM

All clowns are entertaining - even the ones who scare you shitless with their nastiness - didn't you ever see 'Dumbo'?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:08 PM

Oh he is entertaining..

a classic comedy heartless tory villain,
if only we still had sit com writers of the calibre of Galton & Simpson [retired ?] and Johnny Speight [deceased]
to create an edgy satirical TV series based around him.. 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM

I refer you once again, to my 9 July, 2:50 PM posting. Some things, regrettably don't change.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 11:45 AM

You're nothing If not entertaining,, Teribus.

Entertaining? Don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM

I was referring to the 06.22 post.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM

That is one of your most desperate ever posts. All wishy-washy theory, no numbers, all surmise, quite a lot of spinning. You're nothing If not entertaining,, Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:17 AM

No Akenaton it is not vindictiveness with Raggy - it is pure rage and frustration hence his references to "bricks for gas ovens" and suitability for service at Treblinka, Chelmno or Auschwitz-Birkenau. Truth is as far as being "governed" and dominated by an ideology both Raggy and Jom would serve far more readily if for one second they believed that in doing so it would advance their beliefs. Incapable of independent thought they are trapped by their own clichéd, worn out, disproven myths and bankrupt philosophy.

Raggy's rage and increasing levels of frustration stem from the fact that he hates having the mistakes made by him and his "friends" pointed out to everybody (Not really difficult considering the wealth of idiotic statements they come out with).

And all because I had a bit of harmless fun using information that he supplied to make the observation that someone living abroad, say in Ireland, being paid a UK pension in £Sterling would be taking a drop in pay - Oh dear how horrid of me.

Examples please of "frenzied, virulent and intemperate" or even "aggressive, virulent sometimes strange but often downright nasty posts"

Many people posting in 1930s Germany Raggy?

By the way FTSE at 11 month high
More people employed in the UK than ever before
Wages in the UK higher than they have ever been before

Source by the way - Office of National Statistics

Oh dear aren't we in such a mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 07:32 AM

Not vindictiveness at all Akenaton.

I do not know most people on this forum, there are one or two exceptions who I have met and enjoyed the company of.

Thus I can only judge a person with the information I have, that is with the information they post on here.

I recent weeks Teribus (with whom I often disagree it has to be said) has increasingly posted aggressive, virulent sometimes strange but often downright nasty posts.

His posts have reminded me of some of the extremes of 1930's Germany and thus my comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:22 AM

Steve Shaw - 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

No, akenaton, the vote concerned the CONTROL OF EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK. The numbers of NON-EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, which are not affected by any EU free-movement rules, exceed the numbers of EU immigrants, yet this government have "failed to control" that immigration just as much as they have "failed to control" EU immigration allegedly, according to their excuse, due to EU rules.


Ah Non-EU immigrants, economic refugees and asylum seekers become what when they arrive in the EU and are registered? According to "the rules" asylum seekers are supposed to stay in the first safe haven they find, but that is not what happens. Angela Merkel opened the German borders stating that all were welcome without having the foggiest clue of the magnitude of the problem she was creating. The two "richest" countries in the EU are Germany and the United Kingdom so where the hell do you think "Non-EU immigrants" would head for? If the UK is part of the EU and has to allow free uncontrolled movement then there is no way you can recover control of the numbers coming in. With the UK out of the EU the fact that the Non-EU immigrants manage by whatever means make it into the EU means that the gain no automatic right of entry into the EU, they also have the Channel to cross and if they cross once they land they can be turned round and deported immediately - the case for being an asylum seeker fleeing from Europe cannot be supported (There are exceptions of course - Julian Assange - who is actually fleeing a criminal charge)


EU immigration will not be reduced by force within the next decade.

Really? So you are saying that by being out of the EU it will, at some time in the future, be reduced - In that case good because it will never stop if we remain in the EU.

"Supply and demand may be a different matter, as ever. The reason is so bleedin' obvious that even you have mentioned it ad nauseam, though always in a terrible context in your case. We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do. Without immigrant nurses, for example, the NHS would collapse. Do try to focus."

Very pleased to see that you brought up the NHS. Anytime any leftist does that you know they are losing the argument, they invoke it as the "sacred cow" of all "sacred cows".

Remember Tony Blair's promises regarding the NHS in all three elections that he fought and won? The promises about more doctors, more nurses all to be completed in the course of that particular Parliament. I observed and commented in discussion at the time how patently empty these promises were as there was only one way they could deliver on those promises - qualified doctors and nurses would have to come from elsewhere, because it takes longer than the life of any single Parliament to complete the medical training required. So Steve your point about training places is irrelevant, the money required to do that was used to recruit qualified personnel from abroad.

In other fields the charge that - "We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do" - falls apart when you can get ready trained and experienced people from every trade and profession imaginable through the EU free movement of labour, under circumstances that you cannot prevent them from offering their labour. This leaves work that our youngsters are not prepared to do, so others more willing fill those slots. There is also the likes of you and Carroll who disapprove of modern day apprenticeships.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM

Guardian,
"Last night at Pulse, an LGBT nightclub in Orlando, Florida, 50 of our LGBT brothers and sisters were taken from us.

Today, like so many others in my community, I am overcome with a sense of helplessness. I am overcome with the urge to do something, anything, to help the victims and their families. Many in Orlando feel a similar urge. People are lining up to give blood in the wake of the massacre.

But gay and bisexual men who want to give today are encountering an obstacle: the FDA requires a year of celibacy before men who have sex with men can donate blood.

These new rules were put into practice in late 2015. "


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:52 AM

Then answer the points Ake.
Simple question
Since you have consistently presented homosexuals as disease-carrying perverts, what do you propose should be done to protect society from them?
Can't be too hard to answer, since you have obviously given the matter a great deal of thought judging by the efforts you have put into maligning them, though I have to say I expect a response to this from you as much as I expect a response from Teribus on his out-of-work "scroungers" and his homeless itinerant job-seekers.
Wait-ing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM

I think you have illustrated my last posts perfectly Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 08:47 PM

"As you well know Jim, the vote concerned the control of numbers of immigrants entering the UK not "getting rid of immigrants","
Fist step only and you know it- within a day your supporters were stopping complete strangers in the street and asking them when they were going back to where they came from.
The %400 percent rise in race hate crimes (which you choose not to comment on, significantly) is an indication of what it was about.
"You are both demented and a disgrace.."
You people are the ones who wish to send back and prevent from coming to Britain, refugees fleeing from wars and social conditions we have helped to instigate - that's what I call, demented and a disgrace, as is your silence on the racism that is already occurring, or the support for forcing immigrants to wear armbands or have their from doors painted red in order to single them out for racist attacks...... and every other squalid racist action you have supported.
Makes being called "demented and a disgrace" a pleasure - it confirms that we are at opposite ends of the human condition.
"If you wish to discuss homosexual health rates,"
No I don't, only to add that anybody who vilifies and makes people with any form of health problems pariahs, as you persistently have, a real sicko.
The world has long moved on - society as a whole no longer regards homosexuality as a sickness (except in the most extreme and intolerant parts of the planet) - you are an anachronism.   
Bring pack chemical castration, eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

No, akenaton, the vote concerned the CONTROL OF EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK. The numbers of NON-EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, which are not affected by any EU free-movement rules, exceed the numbers of EU immigrants, yet this government have "failed to control" that immigration just as much as they have "failed to control" EU immigration allegedly, according to their excuse, due to EU rules. Why don't you get real and address the facts just for once. And here's a prediction: EU immigration will not be reduced by force within the next decade. Supply and demand may be a different matter, as ever. The reason is so bleedin' obvious that even you have mentioned it ad nauseam, though always in a terrible context in your case. We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do. Without immigrant nurses, for example, the NHS would collapse. Do try to focus.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:19 PM

If you wish to discuss homosexual health rates, I refer to your charges of homophobia, open a new thread and any excuse you have for an argument will be demolished in the same manner as you have been dealt with here by Mr T.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM

As you well know Jim, the vote concerned the control of numbers of immigrants entering the UK not "getting rid of immigrants", whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean.
The ethnicity of these immigrants is incidental.

You are both demented and a disgrace....congratulations.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

"Jim do you really think everyone who voted to leave the EU is a racist? "
The ampaign was run on a racist basis - it made neither economic or political sense - it was sold on the basis of getting reid of immigrants.
In the week following the referendum Race hate crimes increased by %400 - what else was it about.
A couple of years ago a survey suggested that one third of those questions held and had openly expressed racist views.
You work it out - or perhaps you are the wrong person to do that.
Your own views are right wing, racist and homophobic in the extreme
You, as all your other fellow Brexists have refused to acknowledge the damage this appalling decision has done - you in fact were the foirst to the top of the dunghill to crow about your great victory - which apparently includes the potential break-up of the UK and the closing of a major source of employment for British workers
Well done, the ***** lot of you.
You will respond to none of this
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM

Do we really need shite like this?

Jim.... " a racist vote is the worst reason in the world for a Government to change its leadership in mid-stream"

Raggytash....."He's probably started a cottage industry making bricks .....   for the gas ovens"


Jim do you really think everyone who voted to leave the EU is a racist?    If so you have lost your grip on reality! If not you are a disgrace.

Raggytash.....if that was supposed to be a joke, it was in very poor taste, but I don't believe it was a joke, more like sheer vindictiveness.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:31 PM

Nice one Cyril!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

Jim, Allow me to answer your last question to Teribus. He's probably started a cottage industry making bricks ..............






.............. for the gas ovens.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:03 PM

"praising to the high heavens those who do stating how proud you are of them?"
There's nothing wrong with widening your horizons if that's what you want to or are able to do - that's not where you people stand - you are forcing people to do so by describing those who don't "scroungers".
You continue to ignore requests to square the circle by telling us where these people who are out of work are going to live when they move to where the work is.
"then say it was down in London you experienced unemployment of 25%"
Where did I say it was %25 in London - of course it ******** wasn't - it would have been pointless to look for work where there wasn't any ---- your dyslexia seems to have kicked in again.
Even forty-odd years ago London was the only place in Britain where you could find work with relative ease and even then it took me three weeks of trudging the streets to do - the only period of my life I was out of work and "sponging from my fellow workers" (if you don't count the months I spent looking for work in Liverpool when I left school.
My experience of moving was when was single, when I had no immediate commitments and before Maggie turned homes into commodities when it pas possible to rent somewhere to stop at affordable prices - long gone.
You are inventing contradictions to justify your having claimed they exist, yet you have yet to provide one - no contradictions anywhere.
You have stated that those who put their families first are betraying Britain - you are not only advocating an itinerant work-force but your disgusting suggestion undermines the whole concept of the family.
"they now reckon by 13th July 2016 the new leader will take over"
I have not time for Cameron, but a racist vote is the worst reason in the world for a Government to change its leadership in mid-stream - that is disturbingly undemocratic by anyone's standards.
Not only is the country divided, sharply divided, but the political parties are also divided - what's happening in Labour is little more than a right-wing coup.
One of the things being discussed in Northern Ireland (of all places) is May's declaration that she will withdraw from Britain's commitment to Human Rights - this was even before the referendum.
Now - where is your itinerant work-force going to live and what do you propose should happen to these "spongers" who can't find work?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 12:08 PM

Well Jom how about you banging on about how wrong those are who advocate "getting on their bikes" in order to find work yet praising to the high heavens those who do stating how proud you are of them? I'd say that that is a contradiction.

How about you saying how impossible it is to move from the North to the South East as the cost of accommodation is so high - yet thousands have done it - including yourself. That is a contradiction.

You say that you left the North because unemployment reached 25%, then say it was down in London you experienced unemployment of 25% which one was it? Another contradiction.

Political turmoil eh? Cameron declared his intention to resign as leader of the Conservative Party on the 24th June, 2016 they now reckon by 13th July 2016 the new leader will take over. In roughly the same timespan the Labour Party cannot get its act together to even be able to state with any certainty what names will appear on the ballot paper.

SPB-Cooperator, you wonder what note Osborne will be leaving? Well it certainly will not be - There's no money left,/I> - will it?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM

"What was that note left for the incoming Treasury Secretary (Liberal Democrat David Laws) in the wake of the 2010 election by the departing Labour Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne - There's no money left - wasn't it?"

Note left by Tory Reginald Maudling to his Labour successor James Callaghan in 1964: "Good luck, old cock ... Sorry to leave it in such a mess." - wonder what note Osborne will be leaving?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

"Naw too much fun just letting you contradict yourself Jom."
Which are? (rhetorical question for which I will receive no answer)
Nah, much better to do a runner again, as you always doi when you dig yourself into the klarts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 04:52 AM

Naw too much fun just letting you contradict yourself Jom.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:50 AM

Gonna deal with my "inaccuracies" Teribus - no?
Thought not
Sprinting off into the sunset when asked to justify your arguments seems an on-going feature of your technique
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:48 PM

And Labour Governments have created the conditions which enabled workers to find work how?

Wilson and Callaghan didn't do too well.

Blair and Brown did whatever they did off the financial base the country inherited from the Thatcher/Major Governments. What was that note left for the incoming Treasury Secretary (Liberal Democrat David Laws) in the wake of the 2010 election by the departing Labour Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne - There's no money left - wasn't it?

Under Brown's stewardship the country was headed for utter ruin - Brown & Labour's solution borrow more. That is what got them run out of office in 2010. The coalition did a good enough job under difficult circumstances to prevent Labour winning the election in 2015.

In Scotland and in the North Labour MPs and Labour controlled councils have returned time, after time, after time. What good has it done - Bugger All. Hence:

"If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM

This comment, Tucbale. It seems that your short-term memory is failing you.

JIM: "If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose."

YOU: "If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:56 AM

"highly inaccurate "
So inaccurate you are able to refute them and answer all the questions with one mighty bound - not!!!
Feckin eejit!
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:44 AM

Good heavens Jom it must have taken you at least half-an-hour to wipe down and dry out the screen and keyboard after that spittle-flecked tirade of yours.

How on earth can you expend so many words to say precisely S.F.A. - highly inaccurate S.F.A. at that?

By the way would actually like me to point out precisely how many times you contradict yourself and undermine the very points you are trying to make? Naw on second thoughts best not to - it would spoil the fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM

I have come to the conclusion that it is pointless to try and discuss issues in a reasoned manner with Teribus. He has his point of view which I believe he learnt from his "masters" (I really do think that is his mindset)

Anyone showing the smallest degree of compassion for his fellow human being he considers weak and ineffectual.

It is my honest belief that he would have functioned extremely well in places like Treblinka, Chelmno or Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I say this because over the past few weeks his posts have become more and more frenzied, virulent and intemperate.

I would suggest that we leave him to putrify in his own deluded midden.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 04:13 AM

"Well well Jom, never knew that London was in the North of England."
Who said it was - have you added dyslexia to your other talents?
"did you starve? Did you have to live on the streets?"
Did you post this when you got back from the pub last night - you're getting more and more inarticulate?
I left the North of England to find work - I went to London and found work as it was one of the few places in Britain where work was fairly readily available and rented accommodation was reasonably affordable - I found work and somewhere to live.
I worked in London for thirty odd years without a break.
Had I been unable to find work I would not have been "sponging" from anybody had I had to rely on benefiting from the insurance I had paid into throughout my earlier life - drawing unemployment benefit benefit is not "sponging" it is a paid-for right - you Tory moron, it's what I paid my stamp for.
Nowadays, thaanks to the predatory nature of Toryism, accommodation where work is readily available, is affordable, and reasonably-paid and inspiring work is virtually non-existent, again, thanks to the predatory Toryism that has systematically destroyed our industries and has turned places to live into investments.
Blaming youngsters for not "thinking about their futures" is ****** typical of you right-wing morons - what choice or what future are today's youngsters offered in Britain - SFA.
No apprenticeships, no industries to work in, a catering trade that is known for its poor pay and inhospitable hours - or menial, dead-end jobs - if you are lucky, otherwise, an now limited period on the dole.
The now astronomical cost of higher education puts that out of reach of the average working-class family - your Tory alternative =- blame the victim - again.
You bigoted idiots have just slammed the European door shut on our kids in your desire to create a fortress little England.
At least, here in Ireland, the failures of our politicians can be overcome by kids by them working in France, or Germany or wherever... I've met a dozen or so of them over the last week who have come back for the Clancy Summer School, and will be returning to reasonably rewarding jobs all over Europe this morning.
You clowns have made that impossible fro British kids.
I can remember going into bars when we used to use MacColl's holiday home in the borders of Scotland, and seeing beer mats reading "Can't get work? Join the Army" - some vocation eh, training our youth to risk their lives killing the innocent victims of the Blair/Bush wars?
Where is the proof of any of your claims - once again you are attempting to bully and bluster though your own, extremist and outdated opinions?
Did I write that slowly enough for you to understand = if not, try an Underberg - works wonders for a hangover!
If you intend continuing this farrago, I suggest dipping your head in cold water, then try a heavy breakfast.
Sober up before you write in future, then maybe you can answer the questions.
Workhouse - starve or what?
Hostels, sleep in the park or where?

You Tebbitites would return British working people into friggin' itinerant nomads with no homes or rights to raise families if you were let.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 03:48 AM

What comment about Labour and unemployment? Only comparison I have drawn Jom's attention to was between the UK (5%) and the EU (10.4%).

"why is productivity in this country obstinately flatlining, and has been for all the years the Tories have been in power since 2010?"

If I were you I'd check that bit about productivity constantly flatlining, particularly in manufacturing - you'd be in for one hell of a surprise. The Tories by the way have only been in power since 2015 before then they were part of a Coalition Government (I say that in deference to your constant demands for accuracy from others, even although I know it goes against your "Socialist" belief that there must be "One law for the Goose and another for the Gander")

According to the Office for National Statistics - "In the United Kingdom, Productivity is the real value of output produced by a unit of labour during a certain time. This page provides the latest reported value for - United Kingdom Productivity - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news. United Kingdom Productivity - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2016."

The figures reported quarterly presented as Index Points for the period 1971 to 2016 are as follows:

Actual/Current = 101.50
Previous = 101.00
Highest = 102.20
Lowest = 44.60

The trend since 2013 has been upward, which might explain a couple of things such as the UK's being the best performing economy of the worlds developed nations, certainly far better performing than that of the EU.


By the bye Jom was a name Jim Carroll called himself in one of his own posts, if it's OK for him, it's fine by me. No need for you to be offended on his behalf. Best check before making up Acronyms and using them. Your latest is the Company (Bianchi) registered trade name for a waistband holster.

As for your post - Steve Shaw - 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM - Put that to music and you'd have a song that would top the "Country & Western" charts in next to no time.

"bloody hedge fund managers" - Hedge funds are practically only used by institutional investors, they are not available to the general public. An example from past times, the National Union Of Mineworkers was one of the largest institutional investors in the UK, it was by it's investments that NUM Pensions could be paid. A number of other large organisations and companies did the same with their pension funds - and guess what Mr Shaw - in general they worked and worked very effectively, lots of people up and down the country are enjoying a happy and secure retirement because of it.

The "overpaid chief executive" is normally paid what was agreed when he took on the job, he is normally paid his bonus, again previously agreed, based upon HIS performance, not that of the company. An example a firm, lets say a bank, is losing £345 million a year and brings in a new CEO in order to stop the rot, the following year the bank is now only losing £150 million. Has the new CEO brought about an improvement? Has he reversed the trend and put things on the right track - I'd say yes, you would probably disagree - but if any company hired any worker and promised him x amount in wages plus y amount as a bonus based on HIS performance, then you'd be the first to squeal if he wasn't paid it having performed what was agreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM

Er, Nigel, I think you have severely misread Jim's sentiments. His comments were about the waste of resources in not using people's talents to the full. We invest a great deal (though nowhere near enough,which is why we'll never get immigration down) in training people to have the high-level skills needed in industry, in the NHS and in education. What a waste of that investment it is if these highly-trained people are stacking shelves in Tesco, and there is nothing snobbish in saying that. Dunno Jim's history, but in my time I've stacked shelves in Victor Value and Tesco as well as scrubbing the floors and scraping the maggot-infested bonemeal out of the bottoms of the meat-cutting machines, mowed council housing estates which involved inhaling the dust from fortnight-old dog turds that you hadn't spotted in time, weeded flower beds in the pissing rain with my bare hands and scrubbed clay flower pots for eight hours at a time with no hand protection. Whilst I always knew I wasn't going to be doing it forever, it taught me that human beings who go to work to keep their families housed and fed need and deserve a certain level of respect and dignity, no matter how menial their work. As a matter of fact, the lowest-paid workers doing the worst jobs, such as wiping old people's bottoms whilst on zero-hours contracts, happen to be a thousand times more valuable to this country than any bloody hedge fund manager or overpaid chief executive who will draw his bonus no matter how badly his company performs. Some of us kept our eyes open in our formative days, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:20 PM

Well Shaw, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way, glossing over the utterly dire state of the nation and it's finances left behind by the Labour Party and the Trades Union bosses in 1979, and again in 2010 by "nu-labor's" Blair and Brown after 13 years in office. Of course it takes time to rheverse the rot caused by poor governance - but it does not alter the fact that in both instances the incoming Governments did address the issues and turned things around. And yes they did it by taking painful, unpopular and hard decisions - that is what is known as leadership taking the necessary steps to put things right - you seem to think leadership consists of supporting daft populist ideology and "kicking-the-can" down the road for later generations to ultimately pick up the bill for your folly.

I confronted you with your comment about Labour and unemployment. That's all. Not for one second have I pretended that the Labour administration up to 1979 was good. But you were inaccurate in your remarks and I've provided you with the evidence (well, it's easy enough to look up at any rate, and impossible to contradict) that unemployment under Tory administrations since 1979 has almost always been worse than under Labour, contrary to your rude attack on Jim's comments. It's all checkable online, so why don't you do it before posting?   In fact, the Tory unemployment figures are even worse than the headline rate when you take into account the way the Tories, from Thatcher right up to Cameron, have dishonestly massaged the figures, as I explained in my last post. My challenge to you remains: if the Tories are so good at getting people into work, then why is productivity in this country obstinately flatlining, and has been for all the years the Tories have been in power since 2010? Shall I save you the bother? It's because all those millions of jobs created are not the kinds of jobs that you or I have been used to seeing for decades. And I don't mean jobs for life, a concept I dislike severely. I mean totally insecure jobs, part-time jobs, temporary jobs, seasonal jobs, zero-hours jobs, bogus apprenticeships that teach young people nothing, millions of extra "self-employed" jobs that would have made respectable self-employed people, people with real skills and at least some business acumen, in your time and mine laugh their socks off. You're being conned. Some of us, unlike you, can see through the whole charade.

By the way, as you're being incredibly rude in calling me by my surname and calling Jim "Jom," for reasons best known to yourself, I've decided to call you "Tucbale" instead of Teribus from now on. It stands for "Troglodytical Unreconstructed Colonel Blimp-like Antediluvian Little Englander." You OK with that, Tucbale, or should I just call you Woodcock?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:09 PM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

"Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25."


Jim Carroll - 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"25% unemployment eh?"
That was exactly the figure in the area I left to work in London


Well well Jom, never knew that London was in the North of England.

You didn't say Jom but when you left Liverpool and went South to work in London, did you starve? Did you have to live on the streets?

Any idea what an electrician charges for a call out these days Jom? Any idea how difficult they are to get hold of?

"as a tradesman in an essential trade I feel that my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and I believe that of every other individual in Britain with training and skills."

So rather than do an honest days work you would by choice sponge off the working population.

Unfortunately Jom there is a large number of those on the dole who are youngsters who did not bother about thinking of their futures, threw away the opportunities available to them while in full time education, who are barely literate or numerate and have no training or skills apart from their amazing ability to wangle benefits from our welfare system.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

" but which he would not demean himself to do"
No I do not, but as a tradesman in an essential trade I feel that my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and I believe that of every other individual in Britain with training and skills.
If the job is essential, then its importance needs to be reflected in the remuneration to those doing it.
Lip-service Nigel, and you know it.
"Clearly Jim does not want to be considered as one of the workers."
No - I said before - I am not a "worker" I am a human being who worked for a living" - but as a human being, I have other things that make up my humanity - as does every other human being on the planet - nobody should ever be defined by what they do for a living, but by the sum part of what makes them what they are.
You people wriggle around all these points without ever addressing them.
"we are all part of "society"
No we are not - the type of 'democracy' we have makes us adjuncts, not parts.
Let's try you on the points Teribus refuses to respond to - this time, without the insults, if you think you can make the effort.
If people can't find work, alternatives, what should happen to them - workhouse - starvation for those who can't find work or what?
It's a classic Tory claim and you appear to be a fine example of Toryism.
Try another one that Teribus refuses to respond to:
If we must all leave our families and get on our bikes, and if the accommodation in the areas of work are out of our reach, where do we live, hostels, tents, sleep on park benches.... where.
You and your feckin' "get on your bikes"
You're supposed to be a Christian, aren't you - how do you square your predatory Toryism with your Christianity - you're nothing like the Christians I grew up surrounded by - I've never encountered such inhumanity as I see in the so-called 'Christians' on this site.
Not too inarticulate for you, I hope - I did my best for you!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

Exxept when stacking shelves is not a valued by those who profit from the labour, but see that as a penance for those who are excluded from other job opportunities.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

For a bit of historical context on this Who Deserves to be English discussion, I recommend "Shakespeare and the Jews," by James Shapiro. Many of the arguments here closely mirror the arguments that surrounded the "Jew bill" [chapter 7] of 1753, which takes up the final chapter of the book. The tumult, jingoism and the results were similar. I find it hard to accept that we have not progressed in almost 3 centuries.

By the way, if you go to page 279 of the same book you will find that whether or not The kingdom was united by act of Parliament it was treated de jure as though it was. On the question of unification, note 70 reads "The best known example of this problem in early modern England was the 1609 case of Calvin, a young boy born in Scotland whose right to benefit from freehold tenements in London was contested on the grounds that he was an alien. Luckily for Calvin, legal experts decided that he was born after King James had come to the English throne and thus was technically English and therefore eligible to hold property in England. His case gives some inkling of how disputed the legal status of aliens was at this time." [Notes re: chapter 6, "Race, Nation or Alien]

This also suggests that it may be harder to do an actual separation than it appears at first glance.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:23 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM
I was an electrician not a shelf-stacker
If I am forced to choose between between (sic) stacking shelves, leaving home and family or starving, the society we live under has ceased to function.


Of course, no-one wants to end up stacking shelves. it is demeaning, it is a job for those beyond contempt.

Alternately, it is a job that needs to be done. It is paid employment.

Society has not "ceased to function" just because it is necessary that someone does this work.

But if Jim believes it is below his station, then he believes there are jobs which must be done, but which he would not demean himself to do.

Clearly Jim does not want to be considered as one of the workers.

I also have problems with the phrase "the society we live under". we are all part of "society" it is not over, or above us. We are part of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"A new all time low even for Jim Carroll."
Then ****** answer it.
I was an electrician not a shelf-stacker
If I am forced to choose between between stacking shelves, leaving home and family or starving, the society we live under has ceased to function.
"25% unemployment eh?"
That was exactly the figure in the area I left to work in London - what's your point?
The work was then all centred around the South East then, now it is considerably less, but that is only because workers are now forced to take jobs that are unsuited to, do not meet their financial needs - percentages.
WE are not "workers" - we are human beings who have certain skills, aptitudes and interests.
I was trained for five years as an electrician and worked at that trade for over half a century - any society that cannot cater for skilled workers and forces them to take menial jobs at pittances is order to stay alive is one fucked up society.   
Are you really suggesting that %25 in one of the richest economies in the Western world is acceptable?
You must be fucking mad!
Britain once led the world in manufacture - gone thanks to you scumbags, who put profit before the interests of the people,
Our greatest export now is MONEY - FINANCE!!
One of the fastest rising slogans here in Ireland now is "people before profit" - about time those in Britain got a grip of that idea
As I said, it's not as if there was no wealth to be had - but it's in the hands of those who produce sweet fuck all.
POVERTY GAP
Once you start comparing the British economy with that of rural, poverty stricken, tourist-dependent Greece, you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel - is that the level yo think Thatcherism has dragged us to?
I ask again
alternatives - workhouse - starvation for those who can't find work or what.
and again ; I've asked you to provide evidence that there are " there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits" - who says so, other than you.
You are great at demanding answers but are to tally incapable of giving them yourself.
Feckin' fascist
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"

A new all time low even for Jim Carroll.

Here is where he got that supposed quote from (I quote the section of my post {three separate sentences} he took it from):

"You've been given the current unemployment percentages for the UK and for the EU you would gladly see us shackled to.

25% unemployment eh?

In Spain, Italy and Greece (ALL EU Eurozone countries) they'd take your bloody hand off if you offered them a way to guarantee 25% unemployment at the moment."


Now I have opened those three sentences out, just in case Jom doesn't know what a sentence is and to let everyone see the point I was making and the method, lack of logic and warped thinking behind Carroll's invention (AKA Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit) of attempting to say that he said he was happy to see 25% unemployment.

Oh just in case anybody is in any doubt unemployment in the UK is half what it is generally throughout the EU.

Steve Shaw - 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM

Well Shaw, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way, glossing over the utterly dire state of the nation and it's finances left behind by the Labour Party and the Trades Union bosses in 1979, and again in 2010 by "nu-labor's" Blair and Brown after 13 years in office. Of course it takes time to reverse the rot caused by poor governance - but it does not alter the fact that in both instances the incoming Governments did address the issues and turned things around. And yes they did it by taking painful, unpopular and hard decisions - that is what is known as leadership taking the necessary steps to put things right - you seem to think leadership consists of supporting daft populist ideology and "kicking-the-can" down the road for later generations to ultimately pick up the bill for your folly.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

teribus - shame really... if you could just be content to harness your articulacy, knowledge, skills and experience
to positively persuade 'us' to better understand the bureaucratic complexity of EU;
areas where 'we' might benefit from reconsidering, re-evaluating, and modifying 'our' understanding of very difficult, highly specialised legalities & economics..

Then you would be a genuine asset to mudcat, an educator and facilitator;
and potentially win over some of us more towards your position on certain issues...????


As it is, your vile sneering attitude merely renders you as a contemptible old tory **** cartoon caricature..

But if that is just simply the way you are, then please.. why not keep it up..
At least this way you are good for your hilarity value...

Ben Elton and Dickens combined might have managed to create such a rotter of a pantomime / sit-com heartless villain... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"Personally I would like to see the figures that supports Jom's contention that everybody in the UK currently drawing benefits has actually contributed towards them."
Did I say this - no - of course I didn't - you made that up
I've asked you to provide evidence that there are " there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits" - who says so, other than you.
I make no contention - you invented that.
I say that forcing people to take jobs that have no inclination for is a sign that the system we live under is failing - it is a waste of human resources to force people with skills and inclinations in certain types of work to stack shelves in Tescos.
Forcing people into such decisions under the threat of starving them is basically little different than slave labour without the chains.
"Of course there is information available that will tell you how many people are claiming dole"
Then provide it - you always make these sweeping claims and refuse to back them up with facts.
"given to us from those on high"??"
Of couse it should - typos again when you have nothing else.
"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"
Wow - where id that come from
How on earth is closing the European door on those prepared to search for work going to change things in any way - there is a severe shortage of jobs in Britain, thanks to the Tory destruction of our industries - you refuse to even respond to the damage done by leaving Europe, let alone explain it.
"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"
Been ther, done that - it is the responsibility of the Government of the day to create the conditions in which people can find their own work - that is their purpose - creating a society under which we can all use our skills and abilities and earn out own livings.
Unemployment benefit is what we paid for in order to safeguard the wellbeing of those unable to.
Unless you can provide employment for the maximum number of people, you can never sort out those who can't work from those who won't.
That is what makes your claims so crass.
I ask again - alternatives - workhouse - starvation for thse who can't find work or what.
Stop your Tory bullshit and provide some facts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

(that, not than)

As crazy as it sounds, you guys over there are more sane and temperate than us Amurikanz. Relatively speaking that is.

As if that was ever in doubt over the long haul with deliberate speed
and the fullness of time including the provision that you may edit,
abridge and extend your remarks.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM

"If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose."

"If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"

Well Teribus, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way. The Tories got into power in 1979 via a "Labour isn't working" poster (chillingly reminiscent of Farage's disgraceful racist poster, eh?), yet unemployment shot up almost immediately and for the next 18 years of Tory rule the level never got anywhere near down to the level they inherited from Labour. Unemployment was lower under Blair than the Tories ever achieved, and once they got back into power it shot up once again. The Tories are the true party of unemployment in this country, in spite of their cheating efforts to massage the figures. Thatcher did it by putting perfectly fit people in their millions on incapacity benefit and Cameron does it by pretending that a million on zero-hours contracts, millions more who are now counted as "self-employed" (a way of employers avoiding paying for their stamps), hundreds of thousands on bogus "apprenticeships" that involve young people making the tea and sweeping the floors on half the minimum wage, and hundreds of thousands under-employed on part-time and seasonal work. Oh, and if you make it next to impossible to claim JSA, my word, doesn't the claimant count look so good! You may like kidding yourself but you can't kid us. The proof? In spite of Tory crowing about "more people in work than ever" (see above litany), productivity in this country is bumping along the bottom and has been for years. Let's see you explaining that one away.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM

I was going to reply, but I have better things to do today - off to Acton Carnival, so I will let you sit on your Laissez-Faire high-horse in peace for the rest of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

Let's rip this clichéd little exercise in leftist rhetoric apart shall we:

1: There are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into.

Jom says that this is - "Totally invented Tory bollocks"

Personally I would like to see the figures that supports Jom's contention that everybody in the UK currently drawing benefits has actually contributed towards them.

Jom's take on things is that if you have the choice to either take a job or stay on benefits and the latter matches earning wages then it is perfectly acceptable to pass up on job experience and opt to remain idle. I say that it is not, that is not what the Welfare State was set up to provide, it was designed and intended to be a safety net not a life style choice.

2: "There is no information as to how many people claiming dole who have never paid into it –this is part of the Tory myth, and it doesn't matter anyway"

Of course there is information available that will tell you how many people are claiming dole who have never been in employment and who have never paid into the system - Simple matter of tracking National Insurance Numbers, contributions and compare that to benefits paid Jom.

Of course it matters, if you cannot see why, then you are a greater fool than even I take you for.

3: "Unemployment 'benefit' is not a gift given to us on high"

?? Should that not be "....given to us from those on high"??

" – it is an insurance scheme we all pay into from when we start work in order to protect everybody from suffering if our Government fails to create the conditions whereby we can find work"

Correction Jom - "it is an insurance scheme that all those of us who work pay into" - unfortunately too many people who have never worked a day in their lives use this insurance scheme as a dossers charter. Since Tony Blair left officer the country has been run 100% by professional politicians who to quote Nigel Farage - "Have never done an honest days work in their lives" - going to uni and then going straight into Conservative or Labour Central Office doesn't count – Tell me Jom just how precisely are these experts in how trade, industry and commerce work even going to recognise what conditions are required to create jobs - they wouldn't know them if they jumped up and bit them on the arse.

"the high unemployment figures are not because because people don't want to work but because there is no work to be had."

Bullshit Jom, the work is there, the lazy and indolent native population just isn't prepared to do it. The migrant workers who have flocked to this country are not all on the dole, they found work, and proved themselves to be damned good at it. Unemployment in the UK is running at half the level it is in the EU.

As a prospective employer I look at two candidates for one position. One has been sat on the dole for the last five years and the other has turned his hand to and taken on any job no matter how menial or lowly paid he could find over the same time frame - I know which one I am going to employ - the one that knows what work is. That Jom is common sense and should be obvious to anybody.

4: "Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25.
Nobody is entitled to say that those unable to find work should not be paid (another example of your fascism)"


At one point Jom - WOW - Is it fun living in your time warp Jom? You've been given the current unemployment percentages for the UK and for the EU you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh? In Spain, Italy and Greece (ALL EU Eurozone countries) they'd take your bloody hand off if you offered them a way to guarantee 25% unemployment at the moment.

On points Jom, you have completely missed the point that was being made. It has nothing whatsoever to do with not paying benefits to those unable to find work, but has everything to do with not paying benefits to those who won't find work - they are robbing resources from people who actually need it.

Now back to the reality check I gave you Jom:

1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life."

Quite right says Jom but goes on to say, "but it is the job of elected governments to create circumstances in which I can find work within a reasonable distance from my home" - hate to point this out to you Jom but the Government you speak of is part and parcel of the world, nor anybody in it. Nobody owes you a job or a living that is YOUR personal responsibility (A word hated by you and the likes of you - Aw it's always somebody else's fault).

You talk as though there is no work, odd then that the millions who have come to this country have seemed to find it. When you moved from Liverpool to London, did you starve Jom? If you can move to find work why can't anybody else? I did and worked quite happily all over the world while maintaining a family and home in the UK, and believe me I was by no means the exception.

"If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose.

If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??

Back in the day, if I lost my job, I claimed my entitlement from THE POOL CREATED BY WORKING PEOPLE; nothing has fundamentally changed {Oh yes it bloody well has}, and when it does, we will have a refugee crisis on our hands of people moving out of Britain to seek work – you braindeads have just closed the European door. - Just how have we closed the door Jom? Do you know the details of whatever deal has yet to be negotiated? No you don't What about the door to the world? Has that been closed as well?

2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life.

They have done – they pay into a compulsory insurance scheme in order to protect themselves from such events.

Missed the point again Jom, and they will only have paid into this compulsory insurance scheme IF THEY HAVE BEEN IN PAID EMPLOYMENT. Now what do you think I meant when I mentioned - "preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life." - education, looking at and determining best trades and training to optimise job prospects then working towards it by applying themselves.

3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population

"We are not talking about "individuals" we are discussing millions" – But Jom you are talking "individuals" your little bleat was all about what you see as the Government's responsibility to create the conditions so that you can have a job for life on your doorstep - How the F**k does the Government know what YOU want to do, or indeed where you want to live. Not their job at all, all that part of life is down to you - the individual, supported and advised by friends and family, and nobody else.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:00 AM


They'll pitch Leadsome as the 'people's rebellion' candidate despite the fact she's a liar and a bigot. She'll win because the tory party is basically an association of old white people hankering after the last days of empire, and then she won't call an election until 2020 and will govern undemocratically and without mandate (didn't work out so well last time, did it?).


If that's all that happens if Leadsome is elected, I will count myself lucky. Given her blog posts from before the referendum was announced, we could find a significant rise in anti-gay attacks, just as we have against 'immigrants' (I know someone personally who was verbally assaulted for speaking French to her child), legislation favouring official marriage over heterosexual partnerships, bringing Christianity more to the fore in government (cf the US) and who know what else.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM

"2) Have the support of the elected Conservative Members of Parliament"

Well, no leader of any political party has the full support or every member of their PLP. Ever. This looks good typed in a Daily Mail editorial, but is spin and not the real world.

Party politics is dying on it's arse, and about time too. The EU vote has laid bare the deficiencies of the party system; the winners of Brexit have all done the damage and then buggered off, more than aware of that being implicated in the invoking of Article 50 and the practicalities of negotiating to leave the EU will mean their legacy will be little more than a steaming midden of pure excrement.

Meanwhile, the two prospective and future unelected PMs are both right-wing and both unpalatable leaders for a country. The idea everyone is going to unite behind the likes of Andrea Leadsome is laughable - why should we? She's a little-England tory who would never be in this position if it wasn't for the fact Aaron Banks has taken a shine to her and decided that as UKIP is dead in the water he should back another horse, especially one galloping to the right of the field. The fact he found one nearly as nasty as Farage in the tory ranks comes as no surprise, but the idea of this village-hall demagogue leading the nation through the choppy waters of Brexit is enough to make any same person despair, so it'll probably happen.

They'll pitch Leadsome as the 'people's rebellion' candidate despite the fact she's a liar and a bigot. She'll win because the tory party is basically an association of old white people hankering after the last days of empire, and then she won't call an election until 2020 and will govern undemocratically and without mandate (didn't work out so well last time, did it?).


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 10:00 AM

(that, not than)

As crazy as it sounds, you guys over there are more sane and temperate than us.

As if that was ever in doubt over the long haul with deliberate speed and the fullness of time including the provision that you may edit, abridge and extend your remarks.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

Unfortunately though Jom, there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into.
Totally invented Tory bollocks
There is no information as to how many people claiming dole who have never paid into it –this is part of the Tory myth, and it doesn't matter anyway
Unemployment 'benefit' is not a gift given to us on high – it is an insurance scheme we all pay into from when we start work in order to protect everybody from suffering if our Government fails to create the conditions whereby we can find work – the high unemployment figures are not because because people don't want to work but because there is no work to be had.
Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25.
Nobody is entitled to say that those unable to find work should not be paid (another example of your fascism)
Reality check for you Terrytoon
"1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life."
Quite right, but it is the job of elected governments to create circumstances in which I can find work within a reasonable distance from my home.
Tebbit's 'get on your bike' is a legacy of Thatcher's cutting the North of England adrift and creating two nations - Thatcher virtually admitted she was a fascist when she described Pinochete's murdering style of government her kind of democracy.
The question of becoming itinerant workers, which is what you extremists are proposing, is out of the question anyway – as general property prices and rents are largely governed by work availability, most people cannot afford to move to where the work is – what are you really suggesting – reopening the workhouse schemes - if not, what - mass starvation?.
If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose.
Back in the day, if I lost my job, I claimed my entitlement from the pool created by working people; nothing has fundamentally changed, and when it does, we will have a refugee crisis on our hands of people moving out of Britain to seek work – you braindeads have just closed the European door.

"2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life."
They have done – they pay into a compulsory insurance scheme in order to protect themselves from such events.

"3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population"
We are not talking about "individuals" we are discussing millions – go and count the unemployment figures, then add on the millions who are earning the national minimum wage, then add to that, those who are surviving on or below subsistence level
It's not as if there isn't money about – look at the rapidly accelerating gap between haves and have-nots – in Britain and throughout the world.

This latest referendum fiasco has benefitted nobody – there's an example of extreme bigotry and self-destructive stupidity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

It is clear to me now than Britain is a nation on edge.

The US is a nation on the edge of armed revolt vs. rebellion.

I urge you this is the time to step back from all this revulsion.

It is time to discuss how to step back.


































































.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

last in ref to 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:44 AM

Rather like the middle class and poor folks in the U.S. who steadfastly vote Republicrud - the very people who put them in the economic toilet they compain about.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:41 AM

David Cay Johnston's analysis of who drove the leave vote, why and what it means for the future:

What are sometimes referred to as "those people" spoke, but no one is listening to the real message.

The Daily Beast


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM

"
Umm, if I'm not mistaken it was the proles who drove the leave vote was it not?
"

bobad - for a starters Learning 101 in advanced ideology theory.. google "Hegemony" - ".. colluding in your own domination"...

That's what was basic concept when I was a first year undergrad well over 3 decades ago....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 07:41 AM

Oh dear Raggy, please point out where in the Remain campaigns literature did it state with utmost clarity that the price of everything was going to stay the same of be reduced.

So the price of a computer goes up - as pointed out by someone else, that may or may not have had something to do with the result of the referendum - bet the price is also going up on the continent too.

If the price of a Merc, Audi, BMW or a VW goes up too much to affect sales to the UK just sit back and hear the Germans scream.

But a couple of things we now do have a chance to do something about:

1) Immigration - we will have the say on who comes in and who does not - not some unaccountable bureaucrat in Brussels, or a foreign political leader wishing to grandstand. Our borders are easier to both control and close than the EU's.

2) VAT - Which does already affect everyone, rich and poor alike - we can either scrap it (which I think would be a bad idea) or adjust it as WE see fit - we will no longer be told from Brussels what is to be covered and what is to be exempt.

And Bobad was perfectly correct Shaw. What swung the vote for Brexit were the votes of traditional Labour voters the length and breadth of the country. The Tory Leadership election is proceeding according to their party's rules and once over they will have a leader who:

1) Will lead

2) Have the support of the elected Conservative Members of Parliament

How many pieces will the Labour Party be in by then Shaw? BBC news showed the Chamber of the House of Commons yesterday barely one single Labour member sitting on the opposition benches behind their "Leader".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:30 AM

Still cannot read Teribus. I distinctly said it was a sign of things to come. So a laptop has gone up 10%, what next a Car perhaps, then food imports, which hit everyone rich or poor. Oil, gas, electric, petrol etc etc.

You often state various things are the cause of problems within our society. One of the biggest is the "Sod you Jack, I'm alright" mentality which you clearly demonstrate.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM

That was supposed to be drives, not leads.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

Nope. Nobody leads the votes in this country. Everyone, from Prince Phil to the scruffiest tramp, has one vote and each vote carries equal weight. That's how it works. Hope this helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 06:44 PM

"fuck the proles.. let 'em starve for all I care..."😜

Umm, if I'm not mistaken it was the proles who drove the leave vote was it not?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM

So the three bastards who did the most lying to the British public, who, specifically, promised us falsely that immigration could be brought under control, have all buggered off. And don't pretend that Gove didn't know what he was doing. He's now hoping for a job under Theresa, and she'll probably be stupid enough to give him one. Had he not knifed Boris, he'd have fallen on his sword days ago, but, this way, it looks more like an honourable defeat. Which it never was. That's it with these Tories. Their main priority is not the interests of the country but to stab each other in the back at the first opportunity. Plus ça change.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM

that evolution forgot...

Oh, lord, don't bring EVOLUTION into this - you know what will happen....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:21 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

A sign of things to come.

Dell Compueter have increased their costs to retailer by 10% as from the 1st July. No doubt a sign if things to come.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/05/dell_confirms_price_rise_post_brexit_vote_as_uk_pound_stumbles/?utm_source=fark&utm_medi


It may be worth actually reading the linked article.

A spokeswoman for the Texan tech baron confirmed the changes:

"We carefully consider price moves for our customers and partners, and have worked diligently over the past several months to postpone any increases pending the outcome of the EU referendum."
"Our component costs are priced in US dollars," she added, "and unfortunately, the recent strengthening of the US dollar versus sterling and other currencies in the EMEA region, following the UK's decision to leave the European Union, will have a direct impact on the price we sell to our UK customers and partners."


So the headline 10% increase is a cumulative figure over several months. The cynical might think that Dell had delayed implementing price hikes until they had a suitable scapegoat.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:18 PM

Teribus - errrm... I never specifically mentioned Dell computers...???


But still.. more please, you're a terrific time capsule of the tories that evolution forgot...

We used to have a mean minded town councillor who talked a bit like you... ah.. those were the days..
She was always trying to close down any events or organizations
that didn't meet her strict approval...
Life was so simple and polarised into left v right.
Gave us young bright educated arts inclined students something to fight back against...

I'm glad we have this cordial opportunity to meet..
I normally avoid the types of threads you inhabit.....


Btw... as Mudcat is a primarily music forum, there's currently a possible motivation for you
to make your once or twice per annum excursion to threads above the line;

political & EU songs...??? 🙄..


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:48 PM

pfr - I did not introduce the metric for destitution, poverty and an economy going to the dogs because the price of an "effin" Dell computer was going up by 10% - you Prat.

"Oh dear I'm destitute I can't afford to have a Smart 4k Ultra HD 55" LED TV in my downstairs loo, the Guvermint should be ashamed of themselves, after all it's my rights wots being abused - I'm too ashamed to invite me mates round - They should give me one.

Not at all interested in what you would like to hear to make your day, thing is you haven't heard it, nor will you.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

"thank's"...

.. you've made my day...


.. icing on the cake would be an unguarded recording of a top brexit tory
declaring "fuck the proles.. let 'em starve for all I care..."😜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:33 PM

Teribus - than's for that.. I was feeling a bit nostalgic for brutal uncaring 80s thatcherism.... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM

How many computers do you buy a year Raggy? One, two dozen?

In my life I have bought four of them.

As far as the cost of living goes I have noticed no great changes on the staples that would threaten starvation pfr - but then again like Raggy maybe your cousin is a compulsive computer purchaser.

Ah yes I did have a bit of a chuckle at Jom's expense, further gilded by the fact that as my pension comes from abroad Jom's loss is my gain (At the moment about a 12.5% increase Raggy).

Currency fluctuations do not worry me, where we are now is somewhere where we have been before and no doubt will be somewhere again at some point in the future - swings and round-abouts, ups and downs - no requirement for undue alarmist wittering. When I first went to the USA Raggy £1 = $2.40 it may pain you to hear that in the intervening 50 years I did not starve I did not face ruin, none of us are going to suffer any suchlike in the coming couple of years - go tell your scare stories elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:44 AM

LONDON — It was only a column in The Daily Mail, but in its way, it told you everything you need to know about politics in Britain these days.

It was written by Sarah Vine, who is married to Michael Gove, a leader of the anti-Europe "Brexit" campaign, and it appeared soon after Britain shocked itself (and the Goves) by voting to leave the European Union.

The referendum threw the country into turmoil, and no one, including Mr. Gove, had a coherent plan for what to do next. But that did not seem to bother Ms. Vine. Yes, she wrote, it is "an awesome responsibility that he — we — are now charged with implementing the instructions of 17 million people." But perhaps more urgently, she went on, the whole affair had messed up her social life and upset her and her husband's political plans.

Article Here


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:26 AM

I was incorrect Teribus, you have mentioned the fall of the pound against the Euro.

It was in a nasty, unnecessary and callous jibe about the value of Jim's UK pension in Ireland.

Unfortunately a somewhat typical comment from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

Teribus - all well and good...

But now try explaining to ordinary family folk, like my cousin - a grandmother holding down 2 exhausting minimum wage part time jobs,
struggling to keep her head above water..

Folk who don't have time or energy for pontificating on political and constitutional bureaucracy and theory,
how sudden [most probably long term ] hikes in the prices of household essentials
are necessary patriotic sacrifices for 'freedom'.....??????? 😣



There is the usual casual conservative lack of sympathy which we are all accustomed to,
then there is downright malevolent callous disregard of the sinister tory extreme right.....


As for Fararge's old cronies.. who's to say there aren't city speculators somehow gleefully profiteering vastly off brexit..???


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:39 AM

So Teribus, you seem quite happy to discuss possibilities of what scenarios of what may happen in the future but do not wish to comment on actualities that have already happened, for example The 10% hike in the cost of computers etc from Dell or the 10%+ fall in the value of the pound against the Euro in the last week or the fact that the pound is at a 31 year low against the dollar.

Strange.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:05 AM

What impact on 650 million people SPB? What will happen to them? Will they all suddenly face starvation? economic ruin? Or will they all still continue to get on with their lives and continue to trade but ignore and forget about paying for a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable bureaucracy and grandiose dreams about a United States of Europe governed by unelected political shysters aka the European Commission.

Foreign/Emergency Aid? If I were you SPB I'd take a good hard look at what the EU promises to deliver in terms of foreign and emergency aid and what it actually delivers - you will find that they are big on promises and very poor when it comes to following through on them.

The UK contributions to such aid dwarfs payments made by the rest of the EU States. To Syria alone the UK has paid more than the EU's top four donating nations - So please do not throw foreign aid into the argument without first checking your facts.

As to moving operations? Where to? What degree of trust do you have in Juncker and the EU Commission? The British Government cannot meddle with the Bank of England, the EU Commission theoretically is not supposed to meddle with the European Central Bank - but that hasn't stopped it from doing so has it? London is counted as being one of the world's must influential and powerful financial centres (Nothing whatsoever to do with being in the EU) because our laws, legal systems and independence inspire confidence and trust.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Bu using langauge like "the EU is basically toast" indicates that, like Farage, you consider the impact on the lives of over 650,000,000 people a big joke. More so, if you consider the reduction of overseas aid and development if we do not continue our contribution.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:47 AM

Out of that £228B, what percentage are UK founded companies, and what percentage are overseas companies that could easily move their manufacturing bases/base of operations to another EU state if UK can no longer provide the convenience of being part of a single market.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

A sign of things to come.

Dell Compueter have increased their costs to retailer by 10% as from the 1st July. No doubt a sign if things to come.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/05/dell_confirms_price_rise_post_brexit_vote_as_uk_pound_stumbles/?utm_source=fark&utm_medi




Note that the pound which was trading at 1.30 to the pound is now 1.16 euro to the pound.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:55 AM

getting on our bikes rather than claiming the dole we financed throughout our working lives was your most recent goose-stepping exercise

Unfortunately though Jom, there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into. So when a job that they want does turn up they lose out as their prospective employer looks at their previous track record and then selects another candidate who actually knows what having a job means.

Reality check for you Jom:

1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life.
2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life.
3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population, it is not responsible for looking after the individual who choses to be idle from cradle to grave. Those who envisaged and created the Welfare System in the UK, if they saw it today and the extent to which it is being abused would throw up their arms in despair.

By all means reintroduce the threads you refer to and I will continue to hammer you on fact, chronology, detail, logic, reason and common sense - beats your biased, bigoted, ill-informed opinion and unsubstantiated twaddle any day.

Greg F. - 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

What facts Greg? So far SPB-Cooperator hasn't supplied any facts that stand up to examination. The answers to his questions however are:

1) Nobody.

2) The UK represented 12.5% of the EU and was after Germany it's biggest net contributor. When the UK leaves the EU that will leave a hole that the other ten net contributors will have to make good - without making some form of deal with the UK that will prove difficult for them. In pure trading terms the UK's trade with the EU per year stands at £228 billion, the EU's trade with the UK stands at £282 billion. Within the EU the UK is Germany's best customer, harm the German economy and the EU is basically toast.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:00 PM

Ah good heavens I am apparently a "fascist" now am I?"
Been here, done that - keep up.
Anybody who believes that the State is more important than the individual or the family is a classic fascist - that's what fascism is.
You've been pretty unequivocal on this on this forum and in the past - getting on our bikes rather than claiming the dole we financed throughout our working lives was your most recent goose-stepping exercise "betraying your country, springs to mind.
You were challenged than and as usual, chose to ignore it, which I took to be admittance of your position.
You have yet to produce one example of "made up shit" - you did a runner each time it was proved otherwise.
"The fact that you won't will register with anyone reading this thread."
It is you pair of clowns (occasionally joined by Bobad the troll) who constantly find yourselves on your own, not me - want to go back to Easter Week, or WW1 or the Famine threads ; the most recognisable picture we have of you is your back disappearing into the distance - (not forgetting your boorishly loutish behaviour.
Try seeing yourself as others see you
Talking of betraying your country - anything on the fact that the Brexit vote has put the UK's existence at risk - another fact you lot have shown a clean pair of heels on.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:53 PM

"If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives"


Tech companies blame price rises on Brexit vote


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

Gee whiz, SPB, don't confuse the T-Bird with the facts, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 12:23 PM

"The EU sell more to us than we sell to the EU "

(1) And who is offering to refund me the increased prices due to the exchange rate - not just imported finished goods, but goods that we manufacture where the EU forms part of the supply chain?

(2)At the moment We are only 10% of the EU's potential internal market. Not a big loss to the EU if we don't purchase but a big loss to us if EU doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM

apologies for delay.. I slept late after taking sedative antihistamines and forgetting to open the curtains...

Teribus - enjoy amusing yourself so much with my mudcat name..
I've mentioned many times that it was only ever meant as a one off joke taking the piss out of reactionary acoustic folkie bigots..

[my own personal preference is actually for trad folk, sung and played in a simple unadorned trad style, with minimal instrumental accompaniment..]

That was 15 years ago.. I don't even like the name.. but it stuck..
and yet it's purpose continues...

As to why you were fixated on repeatedly copy 'n' pasting "active in audio, recording, and media production"...????

Seems to be just further indication of your prejudices & contempt for activities you consider beneath your position of superiority
as arbiter of what culturally is or not in the national interest...?????

Now on to your lack of sympathy for a hard up hard pressed population experiencing rising prices due to the inevitable drop in value of the £...

An item on my wish list has overnight risen from £16 to £27..
thankfully something I don't need to replace right now.

But as nearly all 'essentials' are manufactured overseas and imported,
and as most of us are already financially overstretched 'recovering' from the banking crisis... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:08 AM

Ah good heavens I am apparently a "fascist" now am I?

Another baseless accusation to add to the list.

Pray tell where I did state that - "we are all subservient to the State"?

Don't worry Jom, we both know that it is just more of your "Made-Up-Shit" and to date you have never been able to come up with any past examples and nobody really expects you to do so now. The fact that you won't will register with anyone reading this thread.

As for setting store by small minorities of 38% of the total electorate, but 52.2% of those who actually did turn out to vote in the EU Referendum (Biggest voter turn out in the UK since 1992) all that means is that I believe in democracy whereas you and such as you patently do not.

Raggytash - 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM - More hot air predictions based on S.F.A.

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM - So your claim that the vote to Leave means that it is irrevocable is complete and utter bullshit - thanks for the admission - by the way it was Jean-Claude Juncker who stated that the UK could reapply whenever it wanted to at any point in the future.

"I'm amazed at your undemocratic attitude as to who has the right to a say in this country"

Care to give an example of that "undemocratic attitude"? 46.5 million people had a right to vote, where did I gainsay any of them their right to vote? Very close to 3 out of every 4 people who could vote did. What part of the highest voter turn out since 1992 fails to register with you? Have you complained about and wish to reverse every vote taken in the UK since then?

The only person demonstrating any "undemocratic attitude" is you.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:04 AM

Good to see that Teribus's yappy dog is by his side. Bet Teribus wishes he had him better trained. 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:48 AM

Why don't you all just stop digging, Mr T is making you look stupid ...and Jim see someone about that Fascist/racist conspiracy theory.

Absolute nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM

Isn't it odd that a fascist like Teribus who syas we are all subservient to the State yet sets such store about such a small minority - and still refuses to acknowledge the damage done to Britain by this vote (not alone there).
jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM

And there you go, prejudging what you think I did in 2011. As it happens, you got that completely wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

I think it's far greater claptrap to suggest that there's anything other than a cat in hell's chance of us leaving then reapplying. Well I suppose it could happen by the time you and I are 150. 😂 And I was not in the remotest sense suggesting that a war should be entered into via a referendum, simply suggesting a scenario in which less that two-fifths of the country explicitly wanted it then claiming that as the national will. Frankly, the will of the nation has not been proven on the EU, nowhere near. And I'm amazed at your undemocratic attitude as to who has the right to a say in this country. There is no obligation to vote yet there an obligation to pay taxes to pay for government. If I go to my MP's next surgery to protest about this decision, he has absolutely no right to know if I voted or not and he must treat me in the same way as any other constituent of his. If I sign a petition calling for a second referendum there is no qualifying box to tick which asks me whether or not I voted in the first one. Not everyone who fails to vote does it out of laziness or forgetfulness and you have no right to prejudge their motive, or lack of it, for not doing so. If you want to accuse other people of having undemocratic attitudes, you really do need to put your own house in order first.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

Your knowledge of Macro-economics seem to be somewhat lacking, so you revert to what you do best which is to shout I AM RIGHT from the rooftops in the vain hope that someone may believe you.

Do you not understand what Kenneth Clarke said, that outside of the single market we will not have a glorious economic future. To put it bluntly we may well be f**ked. We will lose jobs, we will lose job security, we will lose some of the protection in employment that has been fought for.

Not that you will care a toss for the poor buggers who will suffer. I suspect like me, you are retired, collect your pension and live a reasonable life. It is not us that will be one's who suffer but our children and grandchildren.

The one's you and the other out voters have sold down the river.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:10 AM

We WILL be outside that market and you seem to think we will still be able to trade on the same footing as we do now. We will not. The EU will not allow that, that is one of it's functions to protect those who are part of it, which we will no longer be very shortly thanks to the leave vote." - Raggy

Show me where I have ever said or thought that - "we will still be able to trade {With the EU} on the same footing as we do now" - I think that you will find that I have stated that the basis upon which we trade with the EU will have to be negotiated and at the moment Raggy neither you nor I know what the outcome of such negotiations will be. That negotiations WILL take place is undoubted - The EU sell more to us than we sell to the EU - which means Raggy if the point is not too difficult for you to grasp, if they do not negotiate a deal THEY end up worse off in terms of lost trade and lost jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:51 AM

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

What complete and utter twaddle.

1:   But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable whilst a remain vote could easily be (and almost certainly would have been) revisited. The Irish had another pot at Lisbon. The Scots will probably have another pot at independence. But when we're out, were out. No way back, no second bash.

Where on earth did you get that claptrap from? Where does it say ANYWHERE that having invoked Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that the UK CANNOT reapply for membership of the EU - Go off and check Shaw and you find that nothing about leaving is irrevocable.


2: You may be happy with first past 50% of those who turned out in this vote but I'm not.

Too bad for you then Shaw, we had a referendum on that as well in 2011 and it would appear that you were on the losing side of that one as well.


3: The plain fact is that slightly more than one-third of the electorate, who disagree with the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, are dragging this country out of the EU

Unfortunately in a referendum the elected representatives have exactly the same rights as the electorate and members of the Lords. The Elected Representatives cannot complain about the referendum as they had to debate an Act of Parliament to hold one.


4: In this country, by the way, if someone doesn't turn out to vote they are not disfranchised. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else. We call that democracy. And in no way am I trying to claim that the 28% who didn't vote would have voted my way. What I am saying is that 38% of the electorate voting leave is not the same thing at all as "the nation has spoken."

In this country if someone doesn't turn out to vote then THEY have squandered their vote and disenfranchised themselves on that particular issue. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else and all the same rights up until the polling stations closed, after which their views as irrelevant as they did not bother to vote. And YES on the subject of Should the UK Remain or Leave the EU then 38% of the electorate voting to Leave DOES show the will of the nation.

5: Imagine us being dragged into WW3 on the basis of 38% of the electorate choosing war. Wow.

Idiotic argument Shaw and you know it - decisions as to whether or not the nation goes to war would never be decided by a referendum by the time the ballot papers had been printed we'd have lost it, you clown.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:36 AM

I do find it strange that you are one of the people who complain most vociferously against personal abuse but are one of it's main protagonists.

It also seems that you cannot read Teribus.

What Kenneth Clarke said was "she is not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside of the single market"

We WILL be outside that market and you seem to think we will still be able to trade on the same footing as we do now. We will not. The EU will not allow that, that is one of it's functions to protect those who are part of it, which we will no longer be very shortly thanks to the leave vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:19 AM

A number of points Raggy -

First:
Most people seem to have better access to facts than you do judging by what you post here.

Second:
Kenneth Clarke is well known for his lifelong commitment to the EU, so hardly impartial, irrespective of who he is talking to on the subject. The person he was talking to by the way appeared to Malcolm Rifkind.

Third:
When have I ever stated any likelihood of any economic future for this country that did not include trading relations with Europe? We just do not have to be in the EU to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

Well that response doesn't surprise me in the least, Teribus. But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable whilst a remain vote could easily be (and almost certainly would have been) revisited. The Irish had another pot at Lisbon. The Scots will probably have another pot at independence. But when we're out, were out. No way back, no second bash. You may be happy with first past 50% of those who turned out in this vote but I'm not. The plain fact is that slightly more than one-third of the electorate, who disagree with the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, are dragging this country out of the EU (and I notice you haven't bothered to address the serious deficiencies of the campaign I mentioned - uncomfortable for both sides but more especially for leave, whose promises on immigration can't be kept). In this country, by the way, if someone doesn't turn out to vote they are not disfranchised. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else. We call that democracy. And in no way am I trying to claim that the 28% who didn't vote would have voted my way. What I am saying is that 38% of the electorate voting leave is not the same thing at all as "the nation has spoken." If you were in a board meeting and fewer than four board members out of ten voted for a resolution, you would not be able to come out of the meeting declaring that "the board has spoken." The 50% threshold for a decision of this magnitude is simply not good enough. Imagine us being dragged into WW3 on the basis of 38% of the electorate choosing war. Wow.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:32 AM

Oh just that he probably has greater access to information and facts than I do. He was not electioneering but speaking privately to a colleague and thus what he said is more likely to be an honest assessment of the situation.

Referring to Leadsom he says "she is not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside of the single market"

The sort of glorious economic future you maintain we can have.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:20 AM

Any particular reason why anyone blessed with a mind of their own should Raggy?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

The Tory leadership election is a sort of X Factor for choosing the antichrist

For those with a sense of humor and a lesson in character assassination


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Kenneth Clarke

I notice neither of the "opposition" on this forum have made any reference to the words of the Tory Grandee Kenneth Clarke


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

Steve Shaw - 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitled to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country.



EHmmmm No Steve, the thing is that on the 23rd June 2016, 46.5 million people in the UK were registered to vote and eligible to vote in the EU Referendum. Out of that number ~17.5 million voted to leave and ~16.2 million voted to remain. Which means that out of 46.5 million people only ~34 million could be bothered to haul their backsides down to the Polling Station to vote, or be arsed enough to post their postal ballot. If you do not vote in a referendum that forces an irrevocable decision on this country then you have got absolutely no right to complain about the result, every single one of those 46.5 million people had their chance to vote 33,551,983 actually took it and cast their votes in the correct manner - That Steve Shaw - is the thing - And the ones who swung it for the Leave Campaign - traditional Labour Voters in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:48 AM

"Besides I am not the one complaining about the referendum or the result."
A hell of a lot of people are - it seems that a lot of people care more about the damage that has been done to Britain by this racist based decision than you do.
I assume that we've finished with the "pensions" bit?
Noticeable that, like all bullies, all you have to do is stand up to them and they do a runner - spineless lot of feckers - all blow and no substance
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 01:58 AM

As you said punkfolkrocker - 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM IF Teribus was ..... Fortunately he isn't, I can tell you with 100% certainty that he is no fan of nationalism of any sort and, having been himself a volunteer, would enthusiastically conscript no-one.

Not surprised at all that whatever it is that you have to buy to keep yourself "active in audio, recording, and media production" as a punkfolkrocker comes from the far east in which case the being in the EU is of f**k all help as ever since Lisbon was signed by some secret back door conniving the EU has not successfully negotiated any international trade deal with anyone. The EU as an organisation is corrupt, protectionist, inward looking, unaccountable and inefficient, a cosy club set up solely for the benefit of Germany and France that has wrecked havoc in the weaker economies of the southern EU states - and this you want to shackle us to???


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:44 PM

It's taken me this long to remember the last British manufactured musical equipment I purchased..

approx 8 years ago, for my 50th, I treated myself to 2 amplifiers made by the Laney, and Hayden Companies.
[managed to get a few hundred quid off each..]

Marketed as made in UK; near certainty they were assembled in the UK from mostly Chinese components.
With a significant retail price mark up, compared to if they had been entirely assembled in China and imported complete.

Personally I think it would be brilliant if 'Made in Britain' meant exactly that,
and we could return to the legendary era of genuine UK Vox, Marshall, Burns, Ferrograph, etc standards of manufacture and affordability.

They weren't the cheapest, but a buyer would be assured they could last decades.

Marshall still make limited runs of real hand build UK amps,
but they are the equivalent of Rolls & Bentley pricing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:19 PM

Personally, as someone ... who has shouldered all of their responsibilities for as long as I have...

Do much staring at your reflection, do you Terrinarcissus?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitied to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country. The irrevocable bit is crucial and it's what makes this different from general elections, which, given five years, can be reversed. And that's before we even start to consider the illegitimate grounds on which the campaign was fought, which prioritised feeding prejudice and stoking fear rather than informing people. There should have been a threshold turnout requirement and a threshold majority requirement, and, as the latter involved a suggested massive change to the status quo, it should have been a two-thirds majority at least. Rather than shrugging your shoulders smugly at your "victory," I should like to see you trying to justify the arguments put during the campaign by your side. You could start with the Farage poster. Awkward, eh? It's also notable to see how many Brexiteers are now jumping ship. Boris gone, Farage gone, and, very likely, Gove gone (by design, I'm almost certain), not sticking around to tell us what's going to happen next. Bloody cowards. They've all got what they absolutely didn't expect and now they're running scared.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:15 PM

Teribus - btw forgot to mention.. stick to pontificating on the dreary subjects you claim to have such advanced knowledge of...

Your last post makes you look seriously out of touch and rather silly...


My 'top line equipment' is mass manufactured in the far east.
and is sufficiently state of the art for hundreds of thousands, if not millions
of contemporary UK audio visual practitioners.

What pitiful little that still remains of UK manufacture, is prohibitively priced cottage workshop engineering...
conspicuous consumption status sybols for the elite few.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM

Smug beyond sense & reason...

If Teribus is the kind of nationalist who would enthusiastically conscript young men to fight and die for his beloved nation,
why would he care how many were musicians, artists, poets, and all other useless creative arty farty types....???

I try to look for the best in people,
and although I tend to respect his articulate written skills,
his posts reek of conceit and hostility, portraying himself as a hateful spiteful old man...

So why is he even a mudcat member..???
he better have a damn good singing voice, or mastery of a musical instrument
to make up for his apparent contempt for 21st century creative people.....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

Raggytash wrote: Why do I think I am reading a bitter and twisted old man?
Because you wrote it?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:03 PM

Why do I think I am reading a bitter and twisted old man?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM

Well GregF, pfr put that up as a possible reason for someone to evaluate as to whether or not it worth while to vote Remain or Leave. IMHO it would not make the slightest difference if one was "active in audio, recording, and media production" as the consummate professional anyone calling themselves a punkfolkrocker they would insist and ensure that they had top-line equipment in order to keep themselves "active in audio, recording, and media production" world. Personally, as someone of absolutely no importance at all, who has shouldered all of their responsibilities for as long as I have, I would imagine that many other criteria would feature long before considerations relating to being "active in audio, recording, and media production".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:43 PM

I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country.

Amusing coming from a person of no importance whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM

"Are you " active in audio, recording, and media production" pfr? I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country."...??????

Are you making a point that is any way not dismissive and condescending to all of the amateur and semi pro, and most pro artists here at mudcat...???

Do we have to be awarded a Queens's honour to count as worthwhile for the nation...???



Why are you here at a folk music site...???

after all.. what use could music or culture possibly be to outrageously pompous old rules 'n' policies obsessed bureaucrats..???

oh.. of course Trad British folk is perhaps the only tolerable culture for mean spirited nationalists..... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:57 PM

I have been shouldering my responsibilities for over 50 years Stu, and have not made too bad a job of them. Besides I am not the one complaining about the referendum or the result. Others here were of the opinion that a Remain vote was so certain they even posted before the result was known that those Brexit supporters should show their respect for democracy and bow to the "will of the people" - but of course they are and proved themselves to be great believers in "One law for the Goose another for the Gander" such is their commitment to democracy.

Of course it is going to work irrespective of whether or not the UK is in or out of the EU. Hell if a decision to trigger Article 50 was taken in the UK tomorrow we would still be in the EU for at least the next two-and-a-half years, possibly three. Its the likes of you who appear to be running around like headless chickens bemoaning ills that have not even presented themselves so far. The world is a big place, far bigger than Europe, over the last three years our trade with that world has been ever increasing, while that with Europe has been declining. Easier for us negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world as a member of the EU? Don't make me laugh, ask Switzerland and Singapore who have in the last couple of decades made five times the number of foreign trade deals than the EU have - WHY? because they can do so without recourse to asking anyone else's permission to do so.

The link? cannot think what went wrong with it - but it is from the Guinard - basically tells you that the FTSE has risen about 5.5% since the referendum result became known - some drop in two weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:33 PM

"If you don't like the result?? TOUGH."

Nope. Time for you to shoulder your responsibility and make this work rather than gloat. Time to show your mettle.

Also, your link returns a 404.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

Are you " active in audio, recording, and media production" pfr? I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

buy UK alternatives

assuming, of course, that there are any.......


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM

"If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives

Great advice for musicians, and anyone active in audio, recording, and media production....

The last british manufactured equipment many of us could actually afford was approx 35 years ago... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:16 PM

And who Raggy for one nano-second reckons that the UK will not trade with EU on mutually agreed terms - certainly NOT the Germans - they need us to buy their stuff more than we need them to buy ours.

If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives, in the meantime our goods and services have just got cheaper for foreign buyers boosting exports and foreign currency earnings - TRUE?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 12:37 PM

Interesting comment from Kenneth Clarke that perhaps some of the "leavers" on this site may want to consider.

Referring to Andrea Leadsom he said "she not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

" does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? ~
Blame somebody else as you did when the Northern Irish economy took a smack (then it was the quaintly archaic 'gombeen men")
The entire econimy of Europe and beyong stands to suffer after this stupidly bigoted decision to leave - pensions being just one of those effected
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/pensions/brexit-400000-britons-living-on-the-continent-could-have-state-pensions-frozen-a6898756.html
"God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not "
Would tat be the "democracy" that you claim makes us answerable to the State rather than the other way around?
Your Fascism and Democracy are contradictions in terms.
GLOBAL ECONOMY
"Jom's"
I can always tell when you're bluffing - your typing finger tens to shake.
Grow up, for fuck's sake!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

"Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly?"

What!?! Last week the exchange rate was slightly over 1.30 euro to the pound. Today it is under 1.17 euro to the pound.

A drop of more than 10% So all our new imports will now cost 10% more than they did last week.

Is this supposed to be good news?

What planet are you on.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:54 AM

What Stu means by falling off a cliff

As the Republic of Ireland use the Euro (Which they originally did not want to do and voted so in a Referendum) does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? Remembering of course that the UK Government only has to look after it's own currency and economy, while Germany has to look after the EU's Eurozone.

I think that MGOH is perfectly correct the Leave vote and the referendum result will stand - God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not - as the lesson that will strike home will be that anybody has the right to overturn anything if it does not suit them. The entire electorate of the country plus all UK Expats living in the EU had the opportunity to vote in the duly constituted EU Referendum on the 23th June 2016. Voter turn out was the highest seen for nearly one quarter of a century, which kinda suggests that those who wanted to vote did. If you don't like the result?? TOUGH.

The sky will not fall in, the world will continue to turn, politicians, civil servants, financiers and businessmen will continue to do what they always do - WHY?? Because it is in their MUTUAL best interests to negotiate deals and keep the train on the tracks.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:07 AM

Hi Nigel

<" but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament ">

You are absolutely right.

Cheers

MNike


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
I have made no such suggestion. Even Farage & Johnson have both made clear that they have no intention of repatriating those who already here legally. The point of regaining control of our own borders is just to allow the country to set limits on future immigration from the EU, as we already have the power to restrict immigration from outside the EU. How this equates to being 'racist' I fail to see. (many of those who would be caught by such measures are, in view of their being from the EU, Caucasians, just as I am.
Also I disagree that this was fought on a single issue. Those voting for leave may have been swayed by that issue, but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

Business confidence is dropping off a cliff as the Leavers bicker and jostle for power without any coherent plan for Brexit. This avoidance of responsibility is totally unacceptable, they need to get on with sorting their mess out.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:59 AM

"This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other"
Meaning what? - there are that many Britons who stand to be sent back to a Britain that is unable to offer them a home of their own or employment
What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
Shortly after the result over a million people announced that they regretted voting the way they did and had only done so as a protest vote - they described their reasons for voting as they dis as having been told "lies" - that doubt has been confirmed by the lies already exposed and will grow as the full consequences become apparent.
This contest was fought on a single issue - immigration - and it has shamed Britain.
I attended a music conference last week made up of people from several nations - everyone I met condemned the decision outright.
Nobody here yet has had the bottle to comment of the possible break-up of the U.K. - presumably they don't care.
I never thought I'd ever live to see Britain voting on a racist issue (let's face it, the economic consequences were well-enough predicted, and fairly obvious).
Such an important decision should have required a considerable majority in favour in order to have been passed - less that %2 was irresponsible.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

As ruthlessly demonstrated.. the ends justify the means as far as Gove is concerned...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:32 PM

Here's my two-pennorth for what it's worth (about E0.024 at the last count). Although I was deeply disappointed by the result, I was resigned to accepting it. Then the Leavers started to shilly-shally and go back on their promises. Then I read this by A C Grayling, someone whose opinions I greatly respect, and my scepticism deepened.

Right now I think that the Leave negotiators (whoever they might be) need to give guarantees that they can make good the promises on which they won the vote. If that's not possible (and I can't see how it could be) then they should not press the Article 50 button and start the countdown. Simplistic? Maybe, but otherwise we are taking a huge step in the dark.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

My point, which I may have failed to make clear, is that Jim's statements are pointless.
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other "facts" I quoted. As such the figures must be taken as inclusive of persons living in Britain. This makes the "fact" pointless in advancing Jim's arguments.

As Jim went on to say that it is hard to get responses on these facts, it would help if the meaning of the facts was made clear. It might just be that he uses 'Europe' to mean 'all of Europe except the UK' but that changes the meaning of his words.

If the facts are presented clearly and unambiguously then they can be either argued with, or accepted. But while they are ambiguous it is pointless trying to refute them.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

I always examine cheques carefully.

Jim, re the ☺·faces·☺ — On  - which my computer is - there is a 'special characters' app which one accesses by scrolling down to the bottom of Edit on the header menu. Don't know about other computers, but I expect such an amenity must be thereabouts somewhere.

No sweat about the Married In Green note. Sorry to hear of your troubles & travails. Look forward to your comments in duke-horse, but no rush.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

Michael, one word of advice.....examine that cheque carefully   ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

Nigel, I don't get your post at all. How does the number of British people working and claiming benefits in the UK have to to do with an illustrative example of the number of UK workers and Benefit claimants benefiting from free movement rules under the single market to show that people from the EU working and claiming benefits in UK is not a one ways 'burden to taxpayers'.   If you want us to also discuss your point, can you also give us the numbers of EU nationals working and claiming benefits in the rest of the EU, so that we have all the comparative figures on the table.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM

"Bet the silly guy believes there really is a cheque!"
Nah - he's a bright feller!!
Sorry I've not responded to your article by the way - silly couple of weeks, crashed car, lost wallet, ballad conference.
I will respond in detail#
Jim
(must ask you how you do those faces!)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

Welcome Jim: really meant every word. Trouble with irony tho, as I have remarked before, is that it can be a 2-edged weapon. Bet the silly guy believes there really is a cheque!

☺≈M≈☺


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

Thank you Mike - the cheque's in the post
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM

With nothing particular to contribute to the main discussion, feel I must deplore that recent unwarranted attack on Jim Carroll. He is one with whom I have frequently disagreed on threads - our pov's tend to be politically and ideologically chalk·n·cheesy. But I almost always find his points cogently and intelligently argued. Unlike the foolish character in that Jane Austen quote I am always citing, he well "deserves the compliment of rational opposition" — which that ill-natured & spiteful recent post did not provide!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 04:21 AM

"If you can't make your points in reasonable English, maybe you'd like to try Irish, then we can (nearly) all ignore you."
I make my points the best I can with my limited English education - I hadn't realised that you needed a certificate in literacy to take pert in these discussions - as it is, I don't think I do too bad for an electrician in the building trade.
Typos rule with you, as they do with the rest of your mob, it seems.
None of your points explain Brexit and they certainly won't when those now working in Europe start having to move back to a Britain without work.
The aim of your campaign is to stop immigration, or is the next step Powell's repatriation to the war zones - that would drag Britain down to sewer level.
We owe these people refuge, morally and historically.
We shaped many of the countries for the benefit of Empire and left them in a mess, we continue to back the monsters who run many of them, politically and with arms, and we fill our shops made by workers paid slave-level workers in factories falling on their heads.
The destabilisation of the Middle East came about so we could continue to but cheap petrol.
The snipers on the streets of Homs were probably trained with ammunition licenced to be sold from the U.K. and the chemicals used on the Syrian people may well have been developed using British-sourced components.
When Assad was doing his worst, Britain could have helped stop his gallop by seizing his London-held property and adding our voice to the protests - that's what his former henchmen who had defected were suggesting - they were ignored
Morally, we owe sanctuary to all people in trouble (Im not a Christian, but I do know that's what Christianity claims to be about)   
Wonder what the death-count would have been had Britain refused sanctuary to those fleeing Hitler - it is a similar refusal you people have voted for with this squalid vote.
Hope there weren't too many typos in that one for you to be able to follow it!!
Tories - don't you *******' love 'em!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 03:25 AM

ooer Missus, Trump+Boris image a bit out of date but then a day in politics is a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 02:35 PM

Well, Nigel, it was all perfectly clear to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:57 PM

Ok. Jim Carroll, you can stop holding your breath.
I will respond to some of your 'facts', although I realise you will never be able to accept the response, as it clashes with your pre-conceptions:
Some facts it is very hard to get a response from you fellers onme (sic)
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe.
Worldwide, there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide
How do you people square those statistics with your attitude to immigration - especially considering that all thes (sic) are economic migrants and not refugees?
Holding my breath.........
Jim Carroll


"There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe"
There are currently more than that working in the UK alone, and (for our sins) we are currently part of Europe.

"there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe." There are more than that on the dole in the UK alone (see the previous comment for definitions)

"there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide" Yes, I believe there are currently more than 30 million people working within the UK, which, last time I checked, is part of the world. I also fail to recognise a figure of "THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION " no matter how hard you shout it (use of block capitals) you cannot have point ninety seven of a million, perhaps you mean 3.97 million, or Three point nine seven million".

If you can't make your points in reasonable English, maybe you'd like to try Irish, then we can (nearly) all ignore you.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:26 PM

The unexpected pleasure of the last week is old man Hesletine's TV interviews furiously criticising Boris..

Hesletine is hilarious in his brusque anggry sense of betrayal...

.. and to think.. when I was a student how much we despised him..


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 12:50 PM

'We are the 48%': tens of thousands march in London for Europe
'We've been disenfranchised and hoodwinked,' say protesters as hotel chambermaids come to the windows to cheer.

Ed Vulliamy

Saturday 2 July 2016

The hollow, bitter wit of the banners and placards was a fair indication of who took to the streets of London, in their tens of thousands, on the March for Europe on Saturday, hastily scrambled on Facebook. "And if this isn't big enough," said Jonathan Shakhovskoy, who is with a marketing firm in the music industry, "we'll do it again next week, and the week after. Normalise the mood, make it less ugly."

"Un-Fuck My Future", "No Brex Please, We're British", they read. Pictures of Whitney Houston with "I Will Always Love EU", "Europe Innit" and "I wanna be deep inside EU". "All EU Need is Love", "Fromage not Farage", "Eton Mess" and, more seriously, "Science Needs EU". "Hell no, we won't go!" they shouted, rounding Piccadilly Circus.

No one was fooling themselves that these were the penitent huddled masses from Ebbw Vale or Sunderland come to beg after all for EU funding; this was a vocal segment of the 48% for whom departure from the EU is a disgrace, a catastrophe or both.

"I'm here because I feel totally disenfranchised, hoodwinked and browbeaten into this political, financial and social suicide," said Mark Riminton, a business consultant from Sussex.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/march-for-europe-eu-referendum-london-protest


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM

Please do not condemn me for my linguistic abilities. I have taken the trouble to learn Czech - I have enrolled in classes for several years, but I do not have an aptitude for languages so I am very slow to remember grammar and learn vocabulary. I am picking up more and more organically when I visit Praha or my partner visits me, but it is still hard. Please do not label me as a racist because of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:11 PM

I take comfort from the adage attributed to Sir Winston that democracy is a rotten form of government except for all the others. What I find scary is that a democratic form of government can degrade to something ill and violent and not be reversable - ever. Orwell's opus "1984" illustrated this brilliantly, especially the afterword on Newspeak where he demonstrated how regulating the language regulated thought.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the E U is imperfect but better than nothing and has strong bureaucratic institutions which are enraging. I think that most people voted for leave or remain without necessarily understanding the institution. Not unlike Americans, the hype of both sides exceeded sober reflection.

On the other hand I understood that English was the most common tongue used among the European Union states. Kind of ironic that the master of the language should drop out participation.

My take is that the U K leaving the E U lessons its influence without changing the overall trade regulations that are required by the E U. The U K must have something greatly to gain in its relationship with the non E U world to make the Leave vote worthwhile. I don't know what that is.

The issue of control over its own immigration is the part of the issue I know least about, but it seems to me that this is a European wide problem which won't go away simply by the U K peeling out.

I think the BRexit vote is overall unfortunate but not a disaster, just indicative that disaster is possible, because we are free to vote for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:50 AM

A further observation
I've travelled a far amount - the length and breadth of these islands, East and West Europe, North Africa, even into the fringes of Asia, and have been left with the impression that in general Brits are like some wine, they don't travel well.
We have an appalling track record on languages and expect people to be able to speak English, we can be aggressive and demanding when we don't get what we want when we want it, we speak down to people, often loudly.
As holidaymakers, we take over places and ruin them - Faliraki, Aya Nappa, whole stretches of coast in Spain - I used to love Northern Crete until the yobs moved into the towns.
As residents, we form little enclaves of "our own kind", such as in Cyprus, and the White Villages of Southern Spain -
In one of my favourite parts of the world, Northern Greece, British property firms are setting up here to sell homes to Brits to the extent that locals can no longer afford to buy homes there..
We are neither good tourists not are we good migrants.
Flip the coin the other way and you find that most immigrants come to Britain speaking English, they set up businesses, of ten filling gaps that we don't want to occupy, their kids are high achievers at school and, despite sometimes violent racist harassment, they integrate when they are allowed to.
In spite of the reputation laid on them by the racist press, a survey a few years ago revealed that MUSLIMS integrate well into British society.
They certainly make better migrants than we do
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:12 AM

"Many of them voted in the referendum, and many were interviewed on TV and made clear their intention to vote for Brexit."
And just as many didn't
The decision was passed by a marginal majority which means a large unknown number of British people neither supported nor opposed it so neither side can claim they have overall support.
Scotland and Northern Ireland opposed it to the extent of suggesting that it was time they broke with the U.K. (why do done of you fellers have the bottle to deal with the fact that this decision has threatened the very existence of the U.K. - isn't it important to you?)
"One doesn't need to be racist to realise that unrestricted immigration is likely to upset the current balance in this country,"
One does need to be a racist to have mounted the kind of campaign Farage mounted - likewise those who voted only on the question of race and immigration - the economic and political consequences have proved disastrous since the decision was taken and stand to get worse.
This campaign was Powellism writ large.
Some facts it is very hard to get a response from you fellers onme
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe.
Worldwide, there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide
How do you people square those statistics with your attitude to immigration - especially considering that all thes are economic migrants and not refugees?
Holding my breath.........
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 09:34 AM

I have never supported Mr Trump,

Oh PLEASE, Ake- go back and read your own posts fer chrissake.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

So what about small businesses and workers n the meantime?

For the security of small businesses and workers, until such change to trade terms has been mutually agreed, then access to the single market, and all the conditions that go with it still stand. In that case surely small businesses and workers should be entitled to representation in the decision making process that inform these conditions. Therefore UK should either have a say in the European Parliament and Council of Ministers, or their should be a joint a several obligation for the other 27 states to represent UK small business and workers interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:48 AM

What about the democracy of the many Asians who are British citizens living in Britain - does democracy not cover them?
Jim Carroll

Yes, indeed.
Many of them voted in the referendum, and many were interviewed on TV and made clear their intention to vote for Brexit.
One doesn't need to be racist to realise that unrestricted immigration is likely to upset the current balance in this country, and prejudice some against those immigrants who have already settled here, and integrated well into their/our communities.

The Brexit vote was not so much against immigration, as against unrestricted (or uncontrolled) immigration.
Of course it suited the Remain camp to be able to paint those who wished to leave Europe as xenophobic, but lies were told on both sides of the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM

"I have never supported Mr Trump2
Your politics do
You certainly support racist scum like FARAGE
A "democratic" racist - new one on me!!
What about the democracy of the many Asians who are British citizens living in Britain - does democracy not cover them?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 03:34 AM

Greg, I understand and respect your point of view, but I don't think there is any point in you being insulting or distorting my words.

I have never supported Mr Trump, if I had a vote it would have been for Mr Sanders. I simply think that at the very least, in Foreign Affairs and in the interests of World Peace Mrs Clinton would be a disaster......her record speaks for itself and how anyone who claims to be "of the left" can possibly stomach her.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 PM

I don't know which is more sickening, Ake - your hero-worship of The Trumpshit or of Farage.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 05:43 PM

Of course Mr Farage is not a Fascist, his actions on this issue prove that he is definitely a democrat......he started this campaign almost single handed, was subjected to hysterical abuse, even on these pages as he illustrated the corruption an ineffectiveness of the EU project.
Only latterly was he joined by all other mainstream parties in questioning the policy of unregulated immigration.
Finally he has emerged victorious while his "liberal" enemies lick their wounds and plot revenge.

To attempt to overturn the result of a legal democratic vote because you don't like it....IS Fascist.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 03:04 PM

"for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism."
No it isn't and it's significant that you do not describe the blatant racism of the entire Brexit campaign as "racist Fascism", which it was
One man's meat and all that....!
And still nonr of you have acknowledged that the result has split Britain down the middle, has threatened British jobs and has possibly caused the break-up of the United Kingdom - patriots and "socialists" eh....!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:57 PM

Won't happen. We had a big discussion of that in 1861 to '65. A lot of "Leavers" are still crying unfair.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 11:34 AM

In honor of the American inability to take anything with 100% seriousness:


American States Brexit Nicknames


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM

..all the way through the 'debates' Boris reminded me of coke addled commission only legal services and trade magazine advertising salesmen
I had to spend my working day with back in my lowest point of the 1980s..

The kind of egotistical obnoxious 'alpha males' who boasted they could sell anything to anybody stupid enough..


mind you.. they were good for free drinks and food when they often put their prestige credit cards behind the bar
to build up a tab trying to impress us and buy our friendship...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

Well now, let's have a look at some aspects of this "democratic result." The out campaign was predicated on the lie that leaving would drastically reduce immigration. Well it will not. Apart from the fact that we're just as "weak" at controlling the immigration that we CAN control, that from outside the EU, we will probably have hordes of expats coming home when they find that their EU membership advantages are evaporating. All those extra wrinklies to look after!   Poor old Tory-ravaged NHS! Next, a large majority of eligible voters did NOT vote to leave the EU. 52% of those who voted voted to leave. 48% of those who voted voted to stay. Another 28% of the TOTAL ELECTORATE also did NOT vote to leave. This is important because the referendum was extremely lopsided. An in vote could easily have been overturned by another referendum (and it's a good bet that you'd have been calling for one). The out vote, once buttons have been pushed, is irrevocable. That is what I mean by lopsided. I don't remember the out campaign making that clear. I do remember a lot of lies about "controlling our own borders," pretending via a disgusting, racist poster from your hero Farage that refugees, mostly black ones, were the same thing as EU immigrants, and about "taking back control," though the oil companies and the stock markets and the yanks, who "control" us a damn sight more than the EU ever does, didn't seem to get a mention. Very democratic, eh? Your democratic referendum has led to political chaos and a country split down the middle, not to speak of massive uncertainty and loss of confidence in the UK economy. So the campaigns were both predicated on lies and scaremongering. Yes, both. Expert politicians cynically denying the ordinary people the true facts on an extremely complex issue has nothing to do with democracy in my view. One outcome in particular, the crowing by ignoramuses such as akenaton, is ample evidence of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

"...for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism."

And Farage isn't? That poster? "Not a shot fired" etc etc

The result stands, but Leave lied and blustered their way through the campaign (they've taken their website down because people were pointing at it and saying "but you said..."), and had zero plan for what would happen if they won. We still don't know what the plan is, the pound has tanked (this does affect business, as my brother has mentioned his costs have risen 6% on the back of the vote) and the country is rudderless.

Now Johnson has led us out of Europe and then fucked off without clearing up the mess he's made. Gove stabbed him in the back and the execrable Farage gloats and sneers at anyone stupid enough to listen.

We have no leadership at a time of real crisis, and "This should be strongly opposed by democrats of every political persuasion..."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM

for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism.

You can't make this stuff up!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

In saying that, I am sure determined attempts will be made to overturn the democratic result.

This should be strongly opposed by democrats of every political persuasion.......for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 AM

We live in a democracy, if you add up all the orange speckles, you will find that the sum is a larger number than the other colour.

Perhaps democracy disturbs you when you are on the losing side?

The only way in which the result of a referendum can be determined is by a democratic first past the post vote.

Brexit had the largest number of votes....."Get used to it"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:25 AM

Lots of us want to be in the EU. My home town voted remain, so despite the fact the map shows the only orange as NI, Scotland and London, the UK is speckled with orange in reality.

Wales get behind London? Twll dy din.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

Wales can get in line behind London which at least wants to be in the EU


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

I'm hoping Wales become independent, then join the EU and as my mum is Welsh I can get a Welsh passport and become part of Europe again.

Bloody Saxons.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:46 AM

It's also worth noting that Switzerland was only last year finally forced to come in line with other EU countries in agreeing to scrap its notorious banking secrecy rules which enabled money laundering and tax evasion on a legendary scale. And don't mention the war, to quote Basil. The country is also part of the Schengen zone, allowing free movement across its borders. In order to retain its good relations with the EU, it quite rightly has to abide by these EU rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:34 AM

Well the best thing the Swiss have managed to come up with after thousands of years of "civilisation" is the cuckoo clock.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM

They may get used to it, I wont. Xenophobia and racism are not acceptable, even if those who are victims get used to it or ignore it. It must be stamped on, and those who would shit-stir need to be hauled over the coals too. To quote the bard

Now let it work. Mischief, thou art afoot,
Take thou what course thou wilt

reminds me of a vile commodities trader.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 02:32 AM

His first wife was Irish and his second German.
Both the right colour and of acceptable reiligion.
So what - the man is a xenophobe
Some of my best friends are,,,
Just got back from a ballad conference in Limerick - don't think I met anybody (from various places in the planet) who didn't regard the result as insanely self- destructive.
One elderly Irishman I met at a session on Tuesday, commented on the reports coming in of foreigners being approached and asked when they are going home, grinned, "They'll get used to it, we had to".
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:59 AM

For all those who look back at pre EU with of rose tinted spectacles, should remember that the basic rate of income taz was 38%, and purchase tax, the precurser to VAT was set at 33.33%. If people are that keen to go back to the '#good old days', will you join me in demanding that the UK government restores direct and indirect taxes to these rates?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:41 AM

I'm in Switzerland for a couple weeks, and it's interesting to read about the Brexit in the local newspapers. One column suggested that the UK should learn how to deal with the EU from Switzerland, which has had quite a productive relationship with the EU.
Another column said the EU needs to clean up its image as a faraway authority that makes life complicated. The column said the EU should pattern itself after the Swiss Confederation and become more representative of the people and less representative of power and financial interests. The Swiss seem to be quite proud of the way they run their government.
And on a lighter note, the papers say that all Swiss are Icelanders this week. There has been a lot of celebration here in Zurich after Iceland's football victory.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:30 PM

Since most Tory. MPs have constituencies which voted for Brexit, I can't see them standing out against it, whatever their personal views. And the same goes for a great many Labour MPs.

Of course in theory the Queen could dig her heels in and refuse consent, but somehow I can't see that happening. Though it would be interesting to see the political fallout from that - the natural monarchists attacking her, and the natural republicans finding her on their side. (If Charles had been King at this point, I actually can conceive of that happening...)

No, out means out. Between them David Cameron and Boris Johnson have roken the back of the country. Literally, most likely. The Eton Mess to end all Eton Messes. Except it won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Ya can't make this shit up.

Ah, but you DO, Boo!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

And the situation grows more confused still, if that is possible. I have heard from several parties that article 50 would need to be agreed to be Parliament. If that is so, we can reasonably expect the SNP to vote solidly against it, as party stance and the Scottish reginal votes are in line. There will be some conservatives who vote to remain, despite the results. So everything could hinge on how many conservatives vote to reject the results, as it is only advisory, and how many labour vote to Brexit.

And we could then be in a position that the people voted out and the parliament can't initiate Artcle 50....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

"Ya can't make this shit up."

.. seems you can't stop yourself trying to though... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:35 PM

And I am rather savouring the delicious irony of the comrades having become the supporters of the status quo of the political elite whilst those they pretend to champion have rebelled against it.
Ya can't make this shit up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:34 PM

.. so could the referendum be challenged and annulled on grounds of misrepresentation & deception..???

or do voters not even have the same level of legal protection accorded to consumers...????? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM

People are similar at heart, fundamentalism aside.
If this polarizing asymmetrical referendum was offered to Texas
I expect the same result. The civil difference is that the big lies would be bigger in Texas such as arming against UN troop invasions.

There is a little known law that Texas has the state rights to divide their state into as many as five separate states. I hope the good citizens of Texas never find out.

The civil and wise contributors to this nation changing action know who they are and will note little difference to their day to day life.
In about 8 years the full impact will have reached its maximum and the pendulum of public sentiment will change momentum.

Equating a peaceful solidarity with national pride should keep things from going all drum and fife military demonstrations. I have too much faith in a traditional to descend into civil unrest.

Allow enough time for everyone to see the lies that were set before them.

In the US the turbulent undercurrent is not Trump or Obama or Clinton,
it is the backlash against Bush W for making suckers of 90% of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM

Shhh... listen carefully... is that long lost bobad transmitting from the Parallel Dimension of bizarre and bewildering alternative history and narratives...???


One day he was here, next he just mysteriously vanished up his own black hole... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

I give the Remain crowd credit for honesty, at least. They aren't even bothering to hide their utter contempt for people they see as inferior.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

Arguments about whether people say they are English or British are soon liable to be settled when the Scots take their ball home. I suppose the Welsh might still hold on to the term British on occasion.

But I'm afraid stuff like "the Great British Bake-off" and so forth will be no more.

As for the Union Jack what'll they have instead. There've been some weird combinations suggested. Which would be fitting enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

Arguments about whether people say they are English or British are soon liable to be settled when the Scots take their ball home. I suppose the Welsh might still hold on to the term British on occasion.

But I'm afraid stuff like "the Great British Bake-off" and so forth will be no more.

As for the Union Jack what'll they have instead? There've been some weird combinations suggested. Which would be fitting enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM

Keith - remember.. I don't play that particular game of yours.. you won't get any satisfaction trying to draw me into it...

But I will continue to take the piss as and when I fancy it.... 😜

[ Though, the angel on one of my shoulders has made me commit to stop being too gratuitously sarcastic towards you personally...]


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:25 AM

Pfr, you are going beyond the baseless claim of xenophobia and insinuating actual racism.
Any evidence for either?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM

Keith - btw... Fartage's German wife... not blonde & blue eyes by any chance.....?????? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 10:59 AM

"His first wife was Irish and his second German. "

Keith - my scouse mate, the overt racist - he was proud of his racism - had an Irish girlfriend,
and would have shagged any European 'bird' if he had the chance... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:35 AM

Farage is a brave and strong politician

Just like your other hero, The Trumpshit, eh Ake?

His first wife was Irish and his second German.

That's meant as a joke, right Professor? or are you reprising the old U.S. expression: "Racist? Me? Why, some of my best friends are ni**ers!"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM

There is no evidence at all for xenophobia, and xenophobes tend not to marry foreigners.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM

"His first wife was Irish and his second German."

So? Is that the sum total of the argument against Farage's xenophobia?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM

At the very least Farage is xenophobic,

His first wife was Irish and his second German.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM

In all the excitement it seems to have been widely overlooked that the UK hasn't yet decided to leave the EU.

Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty says "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements". The British constitution is flexible, but I don't see how a non-binding referendum can be considered to meet this requirement, especially where the result has been so narrow. It seems to me that the only way this could be met is by a decision made in Parliament. Parliamentary sovereignty is after all what the Leavers were campaigning for.

MPs would have to take into account the result of the referendum, both nationally and in their constituencies, but they should also reflect on the fact that the margin is only a few percent and the country is bitterly divided (and actual public opinion may now be even narrower, as a number of Leavers are having second thoughts, having realised that the promises they were made were nothing of the sort, that the warnings dismissed as Project Fear were justified, or that you can't make a protest vote in a referendum). They should also consider the implications for Scotland and Northern Ireland and on the unity of the UK as a whole. They must make a decision based on what they believe is in the long-term interests of the country. We elect MPs to use their own judgement, not to automatically do what their constituents tell them to.

If Parliament were to agree to leave, we would have satisfied the first requirement of Article 50 and can go on to give formal notification to the EU of our intention to leave, although the timing of that is entirely a matter for the British Government. If it votes to stay, against the wishes expressed in the referendum, this would surely trigger a general election. With EU membership the main, perhaps only, issue, who knows what that might bring? Nigel Farage as Prime Minister? This is the genie we have unleashed.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:15 AM

At the very least Farage is xenophobic, and stokes xenophobia. I have friends from abroad who live here who are very worried about the mood in the country, and rightly see Farage's demagoguery as being intimidating at best, inflammatory at worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM

Acme....What is "his form of wanting to limit immigration"?

It is the Australian points based system in which immigration is controlled by the host nation, not some undemocratic political grouping......As Teribus has implied the US would never allow unregulated immigration to be imposed upon it.

Are you suggesting that Australia and other countries which use the same system are racist?

Farage is a brave and strong politician.......I just wish he, like Thatcher, was a socialist.    We don't seem to breed many of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:33 AM

Well I think that the more US citizens stand up to criticise racism the better. Farage proudly presented us with an out campaign poster bearing the slogan "breaking point" which showed a huge queue of mostly black people at the Macedonian border. Those people were not seeking free movement as immigrants under EU rules in the routine sense, as we were supposed to assume: they were refugees. The poster was a lie which was proudly endorsed by Farage. Racism by any measure.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:15 AM

Well I don't know Acme, what race is an immigrant? Rather liked your "nationalistic bigotry" immediately preceded by "Over here in the US" - a country that probably has the harshest entry conditions on the planet for those wishing to enter and reside there, and certainly a country whose own domestic history and civil rights record should preclude it or any of its citizens from criticising others on racism.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM

Even over here in the U.S. the name Farage is synonymous with nationalistic bigotry. But you think his form of wanting to "limit immigration" isn't racist?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM

I think it worth bearing in mind that racism where it does exist, rather than imagined or exaggerated to make political capital , is not the ole domain of the white British . Some blacks heve been racist towards whites , and against other blacks , just as one set of whites have been racist against another white populace. Farage has been caught making seemingly contradictory remarks , but I wonder if anyone has actually recorded him actually making racist comments. And by this , I do not mean his desire to limit immigration , which of it self is not definitely racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM

We have taken back control from an undemocratic cabal

Conservative party's still there, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:28 PM

Successive UK governments are elected by the people of this country if we do not like them we can democratically vote them out and install a government we do like. That is "Having Control".

Except of course many of us don't. That's the problem with safe seats. In most elections there are only a small number of constituencies that are likely to change hands. Then of course you probably don't have a choice whether the candidate standing for your favoured party is on the left, right or centre side of the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

"Well said Steve Shaw"....Certainly not the rambling nonsense in his last post.    We have taken back control from an undemocratic cabal who have absolutely no right to determine who comes to this country, or in what numbers they come. Among many other things.

Successive UK governments are elected by the people of this country if we do not like them we can democratically vote them out and install a government we do like. That is "Having Control".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

well said Steve Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM

How weird that no-one has drawn attention to the important bits that happened in Brussels today:

1: On EU democracy and free speech - you have EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker's Presidential ban, immediately enforced, on all and any communication regarding the UK's withdrawal from the EU or on any future arrangements, be they bilateral or with EU members states as a whole. This ban includes all MEPs, EU Council Members, EU Commissioners - certainly were I a European MEP, or an EU Council member representing a country that traded extensively with the UK I'd tell the jumped-up little shit exactly where he could get off if he thought he could order who I spoke to.

2: First of the meetings to take place to set their ducks in a row? Germany and France meet to establish a pact to rapidly accelerate political and financial union within the EU. Juncker now on track to force through the adoption of the Euro by all EU member states. Anyone care to tell me where the consultation with other member states for these "edicts"? The EU now has 27 members, 16 of them make no contribution to the EU Coffers and 11 pay in. The German contribution is huge which is probably why it feels entitled to make these decisions confidently in the knowledge that those who do not contribute have to play ball or suffer financial castration.

Thankfully none of this affects the UK as we voted to leave the corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable organisation last Thursday. Had we voted "Remain" we would have roped in and told to live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 12:18 PM

I used to have a scouse mate in London, who I am absolutely certain will have voted "Leave"

He worked on building sites, and was lovely friendly generous bloke..

.. except he profoundly hated what he referred to as "n**gers"

He claimed he had too many bad experiences growing up near them in Liverpool

I had to get to know him, and although he also delighted in baiting any 'student lefty types" like me,
got see his better side because we lived for a few years in a shared house.

I suspect his hatred was not entirely irredeemable because he made 'allowances' for any blacks who played for Liverpool and England,
and a few black workmates on the building sites...

When questioned about this seeming contradiction, he passed it off as..

"Well.. they're our n**gers".....

Strange or what... wonder what brought that memory back to me...????? 🤔


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

And those hawks certainly don't deserve a capital letter.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

Let's just clear a couple of things up about Farage "speaking for the majority." First, he most definitely isn't. 52% of the poll is not 52% of the country. The figure is 52% of 72%, a considerable minority of the people eligible to vote. You have no right to include even a single one of all the rest Second, he got hordes of people onside by cynically pandering to their lowest, most detestable racist instincts, as did Boris and Gove. "Take back control" my arse. No-one ever suggested "taking back control" from Osborne and Cameron, who got 24% of the electorate last time out. No-one has suggested "taking back control" from shitbags like Philip Green who has wiped out thousands of people's pension prospects. No one suggests "taking back control" from multinational oil and energy companies who rip us off time and again in the service of "shareholders" who never lift a finger except to fill in their paying-in slips when the dividend arrives. No-one suggests "taking back control" from the yanks, who we must please all the time and never even think of demurring from their foreign policy decisions, no matter how rotten (even Maggie let them put nuclear warheads on our soil). Finally, as for Farage himself, this great spokesman for the people, he has tried to get elected as an MP seven times and failed to get elected seven times. That's how much we love him. We got this referendum because that idiot Cameron wrongly thought that Farage was going to nick dozens of his seats, because he couldn't stand up to the right-wing Hawks in his party and because he was sure he was going to win. We now know what a bloody stupid, Etonian, Bullingdon, pig-abusing, posh-boy clown he really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM

"strange or what?"


Well if you are delighted to win by only 4%, no big surprise you can draw your own sociological conclusions from a sample of only 3 friends
..and 'several' ethnic pals... 🙄

====


.."of course I'm not xenophobic, several of my friends are....."

"Here's my mate Chalky..."


oh yes.. those fond memories of a more innocently racist era back in the 70s....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM

On Facebook... I have seen three of my friends who voted remain complaining of verbal abuse on the streets. I have several other friends who are of ethnic minorities or mixed race who voted leave.... None of them have been witness to any racial remarks.... strange or what?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM

I would propose the Wodehousian black shorts, myself. As an alumnus of the same school, that would be appropriate?

For some reason, my brain had converted the shorts to brown. Hmm. I didn't know I was that naughty.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM

"Stu. But the enormous rise in anti-foreigner attacks suggests that the vote was won by that tainted dream."

Well, I can't disagree with that. Faridge and his ilk are profoundly xenophobic and often racist, and more to the point shameless in their approach to gaining power.



"That in itself is a disgraceful racist statement, inferring that the English as a nation are xenophobic."

A) It's not a racist statement. B). A substantial number of the English are undoubtedly xenophobic, partly because people like Farage whip up fears based on utter lies; why we're so gullible in this country befuddles me. At the moment, we seem to be slipping back into the sort of 1970's racism that blighted our society for years. Any person with a shred of common decency would thunder against it.



"What he gloatingly demonstrated today in Europe was that he is an equally as loathsome bad winner...."

He's a boorish oaf, little more than a pumped up blackshirt lout.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:02 AM

Garage has fooled so many people it's impressive.

He's obviously fooled The Professor not that that's a difficult job.

inferring that the English as a nation are xenophobic.

Not all, Ake, only 51%

Additionally, the vast majority of Eastern European immigrants are "white"

Yeah, Ake but to Farage et.al. they're still wogs.

I think the point Thompson was trying to make is that some people have an English ideal, that never really existed, that they would like to the country to return to.

Same nonsensical myth that's fueling The Trumpshit's campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM

If Farrage had lost the referendum by 4% he would most definitely have been a bad loser...

What he gloatingly demonstrated today in Europe was that he is an equally as loathsome bad winner....

Kinda makes you think he's overall not a very good person.....????? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM

And I suppose that nice Mr Farage is not in the slightest Xenophobic. It's amazing how some people can fool themselves so easily.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:19 AM

Not a racist statement at all. I would take a substantial bet (which for me would be about a fiver) that if you asked 100 sample English men and women, without making any mention of race, to draw a picture of England in the 1950s, there would be no dark-skinned people in that picture.
The memory of the 1950s in the English consciousness is of an Enid Blyton and Agatha Christie world, imho, where 'English' means white.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:47 AM

"The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it"

That in itself is a disgraceful racist statement,
inferring that the English as a nation are xenophobic.

Additionally, the vast majority of Eastern European immigrants are "white"

Mr Farage spoke in the European Parliament this morning, "years ago I stood in this House and told you that I would lead a campaign to remove the UK fro the EU......you all laughed at me.   Well, you're not laughing now!!"

Well done Sir.

No matter what your politics are, and mine are far removed from Nigel's it was tremendous feat of will in the face of horrendous vilification which even now is continuing on these pages and almost all of the Media.......The "liberals" have become the establishment, threatening bullying and demonising in their Orwellian world


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM

Observer piece I linked to above,

"the divides the Brexit vote has revealed run deeper and broader than a single issue. They reflect deep-seated differences in outlook and values, hopes and prospects, between graduates and school leavers, globalised cosmopolitans and localised nationalists, the old and the young, London and the provinces.

These divides have been building for decades, but were long latent because, before the emergence of Ukip, they lacked a political voice. Now the sheer magnitude of the fracture between the globalised middle class and the anxious majority is clear for all to see. The patterns of Brexit voting last week map almost perfectly on to the pattern of Ukip voting seen in the 2014 European parliament. The only difference was the numbers: on Thursday, the Ukip coalition ballooned to an overall majority. Those who have dictated the terms of politics to the "left-behind" for a generation suddenly found the tables had turned. The result was a massive shock to the citizens of London, Manchester and other cosmopolitan cities, who discovered that much of provincial England utterly rejects their Europhile worldview. It leaves both the Tories and Labour facing stark challenges. The divides in identity, values and outlook it reveals cut straight across class, income and geography."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM

It's true that it was almost a 50:50 vote, Stu. But the enormous rise in anti-foreigner attacks suggests that the vote was won by that tainted dream.

From the New Statesman: As Lord Ashcroft's polls suggest, it is only the white working class (if by this we mean C2/DE, though many in DE are unemployed) who voted for Brexit. In fact, those describing themselves as "in employment" generally voted to Remain. Those describing themselves as Asian, black or Muslims overwhelmingly voted Remain. By contrast, nearly six in ten white Protestants voted to leave.
Brexit was a rejection of British multiculturalism. That is the real take-home message of the Ashcroft polls. Of those who see themselves as "English not British", 80 per cent voted to Leave, irrespective of social class. Those who see themselves as "British not English" voted 60 per cent for Remain. Similar patterns (and similar press involvement) can be found in the Quebec referendum of 1995, which failed by a narrower margin than Brexit succeeded.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

I think the point Thompson was trying to make is that some people have an English ideal, that never really existed, that they would like to the country to return to. It obviously cannot because that "ideal" never actually existed except in their empty heads.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 AM

"The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it"

Lazy stereotyping, sweeping generalisation, same old, same old. Surely you can do a better anti-English rant than that? Do you think everyone lives in The Archers or Albert Square?

I know in my community we will stand shoulder to shoulder with all our fellow citizens, wherever they were born and whatever their creed. We will defend their rights as equals, they're a vital and dynamic part of our community and many are good friends of mine.

Remember, Leave only won by 4% and there are still the other 48% who voted to remain that will carry the flame for freedom, social justice, equality and community.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM

The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it. Well, there were a few courtly eastern European professors, and the odd African or Indian prince, but basically, everyone one knew was English. Lots of ginger pop and cake on the beach, Mummy smiling and the sun shining.

The Brexit vote was a vote to make that imaginary past into an imaginary future.

The reality of a Europe that never really liked the English anyway saying "Oh, do go away", and a stock market in a feeding frenzy was what they got. And racist attacks on non-English people.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:44 AM

"Compared to the Remainers, yes."

Ha! They're as establishment through and through. Privileged career politicians who have zero idea what it's like to not be able to afford to feed yourself. They're from the party that imposed austerity and cut our public services to the bone.

Those two and their cohorts, along with the odious Farage, are not rebels by the slightest stretch of the imagination, they're the soulmates of the fascist Le Pen and the heirs of Moseley.

To suggest these people represent the people in the same way as other progressives of the past is pretty insulting to their memory. From Watt Tyler, Jack Cade, Winstanley, Lilburne, the Chartists, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Luddites, the Suffragettes, Wilberforce and many, many others had so much more intellectual, moral and political integrity that they don't bear comparison.

We owe it to these people, who DID fight for the rights of ordinary working folk to eschew the politics of lies, division and superficiality. The good news is that the Leave campaign didn't con 16 million people and we are still here, working away quietly on the ground in our communities, free of party politics, to ensure our societies remain tolerant, compassionate, progressive and fit to act as a leading nation on the world stage.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

We've already said 'Goodbye'.
Since you've got to go
Oh you had better go now.
Go now. Go now. Go now
Before you see me cry.
I don't want you to tell me
Just what you intend to do now...

I don't want to see you go
But, darling,
You'd better go now.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

So you think Johnson, Gove et al are outside the establishment? Seriously?

Compared to the Remainers, yes.
All the political parties except UKIP, Treasury, Bank of England, Employers especially government, big business especially government, banks, and the affluent users of nannies, gardeners, housemaids and plumbers.

What Observer/Guardian said on Sunday,
"The Ukip-led voter uprising that tore up the political map in 2014 and 2015 has now changed the face of British politics for ever. David Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union to see off the Ukip revolt. Instead, after a vote that drew the largest turnout in a nationwide poll for 20 years, it is the rebels who have seen off the prime minister, gone within hours of the result's announcement.

The Ukip rebels, dismissed only a few years ago as a fringe nuisance, have delivered perhaps the largest shock to European politics since the fall of the Berlin Wall. The vote highlighted Britain's deepening political faultlines. "

"The mass migration from poorer EU countries that began in 2004 was something the "left-behind" electorate never wanted, never voted for and never really accepted. The economic case for EU migration was clear to the liberal mainstream elites from across the political spectrum, who thought that should settle the matter. Politicians from both Labour and the Conservatives never made a case for free movement, and seemed to believe they could assuage popular anger by restrictions that were manifestly impossible, given EU treaty rules. The left-behind voters weren't fooled – they soon recognised that controlling immigration would be impossible without leaving the EU, and they have now voted accordingly."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/left-behind-eu-referendum-vote-ukip-revolt-brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:06 AM

"The establishment wanted to remain."


So you think Johnson, Gove et al are outside the establishment? Seriously?


"Before Farage there was no-one in politics who spoke for that majority"

Garage has fooled so many people it's impressive. He's a city man who went to Dulwich and has zero idea of what life is like for most of us who have to struggle to make a living. Worst still, he is xenophobic and encourages xenophobia and legitimises racism, which we've seen increase since the vote.

The vote is the choice of the people, that has to be respected. But the consequences of the vote need to be mitigated and we need to ensure we continue forward instead of regressing into the 1970's, which is what a lot of old white men seem to want.

The working class will wake up to this con trick in time, we already hear the Breiteers peddling back on their lies about the NHS; why anyone would put up with that is beyond me - the poor will pay with their suffering.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM

into the hands of the establishment

The establishment wanted to remain.
By a small majority, ordinary folk said no.

Before Farage there was no-one in politics who spoke for that majority, and but for UKIP threatening the Tory vote they would never have allowed a referendum at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:30 AM

"Get used to it!!"

Nope. I'm not going to roll over an lay down whilst the country is delivered lock, stock and barrel into the hands of the establishment, will combat the legitimacy that racism seems to have gained in the eyes of some ("I'm not a racist, but..."), watch as my fellow citizens suffer the depravations the old Etonians the Brexit folk care for so much will visit upon us come the next budget.

The poor will pay for this, and it's essential the lying demagogue Farage is kept away from power; he's unelected, despises the poor and above all, is a bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:02 AM

The pound continues to fall against the Euro, today my source is offering 1.19 Euro as against 1.30 Euro last Wednesday.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 01:22 AM

robomatic wrote: The Englishman wanted to leave, so they all had to.

Perhaps the Englishman was the only one with money.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM

An Englishman, a Scot, and an Irishman went into a bar...

The Englishman wanted to leave, so they all had to.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:33 PM

The point was that if the vote had been the other way, it would have been perfectly possible to have a second vote any time parliament wanted one. Or any number of votes, until a vote for leaving won.

That was the asymmetry that was built in, and many people failed to appreciate. Those who were firmly for Brexit rightly voted for it. But anyone who was less than 100% for it, or who was undecided, was acting irrationally in voting for it. You have to be 100 per cent sure if you want to divorce your partner. Which is why divorces involve a decree nisi before the decree absolute.

The whole thing is like the shops with the rule "if you break it, you've bought it".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:05 PM

but the vote was OUT and when that button is pushed we are out.

Not hardly, Ake. Educate yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM

It is over...believe me you may whine and complain all you like but we are on the way out of the EU.

Had the vote gone the other way Mr Farage could have pressed for another referendum whenever he chose, but the vote was OUT and when that button is pushed we are out.

Of course we could apply for re-admission, but that would be highly unlikely to be successful........"Get used to it!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

On 17th May Farage said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Well, the boot's on the other foot and it's not over. We will now hold the brexiters to account and try to salvage some good from this nightmare before we descend into the hell the next elitist etonian establishmentarian and his lickspittles will visit upon us.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:33 PM

The UK credit rating has just been reduced fro AAA to AA. Well, it is all going swimmingly so far...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

The aftermath of the vote has yet to lead to clarity. Heard this morning on the local news that BR/EXIT will not be good for the Alaska economy as it will lead to lower crude oil prices. Still trying to suss that one out.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:38 AM

Having Won, 'Brexit' Campaigners Begin Backpedaling

By STEPHEN CASTLE, NY Times   JUNE 26, 2016

LONDON — Freed from the shackles of the European Union, Britain's economy would prosper and its security would increase. Britain would "take back control" of immigration, reducing the number of arrivals. And it would be able to spend about 350 million pounds, or about $470 million, a week more on health care instead of sending the money to Brussels.

Before Thursday's referendum on the country's membership in the 28-nation bloc, campaigners for British withdrawal, known as Brexit, tossed out promises of a better future while dismissing concerns raised by a host of scholars and experts as "Project Fear."

But that was before they won.

Perhaps no promise was more audacious — and mendacious, critics say — than the £350-million-a-week claim. Boris Johnson, the former mayor of London who was the frontman of the Brexit campaign, toured Britain in a bus emblazoned with the slogan: "We send the E.U. £350 million a week, let's fund our N.H.S. instead," a reference to the country's widely revered National Health Service.

Hours after proclaiming "independence day" for Britain, Nigel Farage, the leader of the fiercely anti-European U.K. Independence Party, conceded that the £350 million figure was a "mistake." The shift was perhaps unsurprising, since the £350 million "independence dividend" never stood up to scrutiny.

Promises to quickly reduce immigration levels are also being played down. Migration was the cornerstone of the Leave campaign, which objected to the European Union's insistence on the free movement of labor, capital, goods and services.

On Friday, the day after the referendum, Daniel Hannan, a member of the European Parliament and one of the most knowledgeable advocates of Brexit, stunned some viewers of the BBC by saying: "Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the E.U., they are going to be disappointed."


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/world/europe/having-won-some-brexit-campaigners-begin-backpedaling.html?_r=0


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Bugsy
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 09:09 PM

Much as I feel for the people who voted "Remain" (I would have done the same had i still been living in UK)and understand the preening being done by SOME of the "Leave" posters on this thread,it's time to put all that behind you.

IT'S DONE. Now EVERYONE has to band together to make the best of what lies ahead.

I wish you all the best of luck for the future, and, sad to say, I'm glad I'm out of it all and living in Australa.

CHeers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM

Of course it's "only what I think". That applies to all this speculation.

You wanted Brexit because it makes sense to you. I opposed it because it did not make sense to me, and because I believed it will do enormous harm to many many people.

Sooner or later it may be possible to judge who was right. But nobody will ever know what the outcome of a vote to stay might have been. As with Iraq, they'll still be arguing in 100 years.

No one knows whether Scottish independence is on the way. If it does come, in the context of the rest of the UK exit, I doubt if there would be significant difficulties for Scotland joining, or getting a free trade agreement analogous to Norway and Switzerland. But of course nothing is certain. It never is.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

That is what you THINK Kevin, please do not attempt to propose it as something the EU would automatically jump at - you personally have no way of knowing that, neither does any member of the Scottish Government. You seem to be arguing as though only Scottish views must be taken into account - look at it from the EU's point of view, would Scotland be a net contributor or would an independent Scotland be a drain on EU resources - with the EU's second largest contributor walking out of the door, that is how the EU will look at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:12 PM

Of course it needn't apply to join, if the conditions weren't satisfactory in some respects. Scotland doesn't have too many worries about freedom of movement, so an agreement analogous to Norway or Switzerland would be a real option, if they didn't fancy the euro.

In the circumstances of Brexit I think Scottish joining the EU would be viewed pretty favourably by other members, I'd think. Even Spain would be less likely to see it as a dangerous precedent for Catalonia.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:13 PM

I think that Sturgeon has already been told by EU officials what Salmond was told back in 2014 - Scotland is not a member of the EU the UK is. The UK has decided democratically to leave the EU - if Scotland wishes to joint the EU it must do so by applying to join once Scotland becomes an independent country - not before.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:51 PM

McGrath writes:
I see the Scottish government is arguing that there is a precedent for Scotland and Northern Ireland to stay in the EU even if England and Wales get out.

One difficulty here, McGrath. The EU tends to work on the Napoleonic code rather than the British common law.
The British system (which we inherited and continued to use as our legal logic in Ireland, by the way, and which I think the US did as well) bases laws on previous precedents.
The Napoleonic code works differently, lawyers tell me - instead of using precedent, each law is worked out intellectually, using the logic of the individual situation.
So the precedent may not be so important as it would be in a historically Anglo society.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM

And maybe the only bright spot with Brexit - it removes the government most favourable to the proposed TTIP treaty from the picture so far as the EU is concerned, making it significantly less likely.

Now if only Obama's promise the outside the EU the UK would be "at the back of the queue" turns out to be right...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

I think I voted the right way in 1975 - when I voted for the U K to get out, at an early stage. I thought that sooner or later the British presence would harm Europe.

I voted this time to stay, and I think that was consistent. I thought that by this time Brexit would cause terrible harm to both parties - and all the signs at present seem to indicate I was right.

A bit like the difference between pulling out a dodgy tooth, and chopping off a limb.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

I think I voted the right way in 1975 - when I voted for the U K to get out, at an early stage. I thought that sooner or later the British presence would harm Europe.

I voted this time to stay, and I think that was consistent. I thought that by this time Brexit would cause terrible harm to both parties - and all the signs at present seem to indicate I was right.

A bit like the difference between Pulling out a dodgy tooth, and chopping off a limb.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:35 PM

In case it's not obvious, I voted to leave. And I'm glad that the majority of the voting UK population agreed with my view.

I was hoodwinked back in the 70s. I won't make that mistake again.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:31 PM

And if the Scottish Assembly refuses to agree to Brexit, I can't see how it can go ahead. After all, it was only an advisory referendum. It doesn't in itself carry any legal force whatsoever.
Of course, that argument works both ways. If it was only advisory then although Scotland have said they don't want to leave, if the UK leaves, Scotland's votes were only advisory!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:24 PM

I see the Scottish government is arguing that there is a precedent for Scotland and Northern Ireland to stay in the EU even if England and Wales get out.

Constitutionally Greenland is still a largely self governing part of Denmark, and some years ago it pulled out of the then European Communities. But Denmark is still in the EU.

Sounds logical to me. And if the Scottish Assembly refuses to agree to Brexit, I can't see how it can go ahead. After all, it was only an advisory referendum. It doesn't in itself carry any legal force whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹


Import duties (if any) would be imposed by the UK, so, if there are no new tariffs you don't need to worry about that. (this is something Mr Cameron was rather disingenuous about, claiming that prices would go up due to import tariffs. It is our government which would impose those tariffs)
If you have to pay VAT on bringing the goods in then that will cost you an additional 1% of the value. (on the basis that you will no longer be paying German VAT of 19%)

If you're bringing in goods from Italy you will save, as their current rate is 22%


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM

"It's like Trump going to West Virginia and saying it's all going to be great," Blanchflower said. "Trump can't help them. But you can see why they would want change."

"At some level it is a cry of frustration but one that could end up hurting an already economically harmed part of the population," says Eswar Prasad, an economics professor at Cornell University and former official at the International Monetary Fund. "That is the remarkable irony here."

William Galston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said Brexit voters were "startlingly" similar to Trump's coalition: More likely to be older, with less education, and more likely to oppose immigration.

Listening to British television coverage of the vote, "I could have shut my eyes and altered the accents, and I would have thought they were talking about the American election," he said.

"Why would you locate in the U.K.?" asked Desmond Lachman, resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and former IMF official. "You don't know what kind of access you'll have to the (EU). Why not just wait?"

Complete Article Here


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

"All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves"
Who is "ourselves?
You live in Scotland, don't you?
Scotland voted to leave and is quite likely to call for another Independence referendum, as is Northern Ireland - if they succeed they will apply to join the E.U. - if is in their economic interests to do so - will you learn to live with that?
This appalling marginal result has split Britain down the middle, has threatened the future of the no longer United Kingdom, has undermined British investment abroad, stands to impoverish the already struggling working people of these Islands and threatens to have produced a political moron and an ale-swilling racist as British leaders - as long as it gets rid of the wogs eh?
Pity homosexuals couldn't have been included in the campaign!
A Pyrrhic vctory, I think you'll find - the more astute Brexists are already beginning to recognise that fact
SECOND THOUGHTS

Insights
". Bit of profiteering by the latter-day "Gombeen Men" Jim?"
Your hatred of Ireland has long been established but blaming local businesses for problems that are due to hit Britain big-time as the economy continues to nose dive continues to confirm it.
Your quaint, archaic use of the term 'gombeen' shows how out-of-touch you are on the people you hate.
Whatever it's origins, it is a term that has been applied almost exclusively to self-serving politicians over the last few decades.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM

More potential job losses ???

Link


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:04 PM

I nearly fell out of my standing reading the New Yorker's claim today that America (home of mass shootings, of ordinary people having multiple guns at home, of state executions, of racial discrimination, of sub-prime mortgages, of state assassinations of foreign citizens without trial…) is now the home of liberalism!

Teribus - should the English have considered other nations when voting on their own future? Not what I was suggesting; I was saying you rightly screwed us over, but perhaps that should not be unexpected.

It might be more worrying to consider that you rightly screwed yourselves over, from the look of the economic readouts. As a joker on Twitter said today, "Don't forget that we can restore the value of Sterling simply by buying pounds off each other. I'm offering 30p each."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:35 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"

And the fallout therefrom is just beginning - get used to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:12 PM

So far as the timetable for leaving, it is obvious that both parties will be trying to arrange this in the way that is most convenient, rather than bending over backwards to suit the other side.

Obviously for the EU it makes sense that, if the UK it should do so as promptly as possible. That means, the two years provided for, quite long enough.

That might not suit the Conservative Party, but so what?

I imagine a fair compromise will be reached. If the Conservatives will have a new leader, and the country a new Prime Minister, by October, that would be a reasonable date for the two year countdown to start.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:08 PM

Or perhaps requiring a clear significant majority either way for an unconditional win..
..and a possible 2nd round for less than, let's say, 5 - 10 % 'victory'...???

.. or maybe a penalty shoot out...?????? errrrmm.. footballs, not bullets.....🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

How different things would be if David Cameron had agreed to the demand to make victory for the leavers dependant on their winning in all four parts of the UK. I've never seen any explanation as to why he made a decision like that. Sheer stupidity and arrogance?

The other thing that would have made all the difference is if migrants from EU countries had had the same right to vote as those from Pakistan and India and other Commonwealth countries. In the Scottish referendum they were allowed to vote. So were 16 and 17 year olds.

Three ways out which would have made all the difference, all perfectly justifiable in terms of democratic principles.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:32 PM

"the man has balls of steel."..... plural...???

errrrmmmmm... something else he may share in common with another 'great' leader from 20th Century history.... 😬


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM

100 years from now.. will historians evaluate Farrage in the same way we regard Oswald Mosley & Lord Haw-Haw...??? 🤔


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:11 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"
All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves.

I'm fed up with the abuse being aimed at Nigel Farage, without him there would have been no referendum, for a while he fought the system single handed, demonised by every power hungry party in the country, demonised by every news paper.

He should be a candidate for politician of the year....the man has balls of steel.

Jim says... he is a racist and anti- immigrant, that is untrue he is simply against the free movement of people within the EU and you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see why.
Free movement would be perhaps acceptable if the playing field was level but there will never be mass migration of unskilled labour from the UK to Eastern Europe ......who wants to work for a quarter of what they can make at home.....and no benefits, poor health service and life in a squat?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM

Ah so it is the duty and responsibility of the British electorate to take into account and put the interests of other nations before their those of their own?? Dream On.

The Republic of Ireland's top three trading partners in descending order of importance are - The USA: the UK; Belgium.

"SPB-Cooperator - 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?


No idea SPB what price have you paid so far?

Yes Jom by all means let's see if the EU Commission will abide by the rules that they themselves imposed upon the EU member states - If they don't then they will demonstrate quite clearly why the UK vote to leave what will have been proven to be a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable dictatorship was the correct thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

Bugger. Got me facts wrong there. I forgot that Boris got a seat last time out. However, you don't have to be an MP to be PM. Sir Alec was PM for three weeks whilst being neither in the Commons nor the Lords.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:38 PM

"As soon as you like pfr."


I don't want to ever.. right.. solved that then, thanks...

If only the rest of LEAVE were as reasonable as you...????? 🙄

Be nice if Boris and Farage should dip their hands in their pockets to reimburse us for any of our hard earned £££S losses caused by their monomaniac ideological over eagerness.....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM

"So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???"


As soon as you like pfr.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."
Individually, these two voted to leave - they are both States in their own right, however Empire Loyalists might consider them.
If things continue where they are heading at present, it will all be academic - Great Britain will fragment
"They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK."
Let's see, shall we.
These are extraordinary circumstances.
We are witnessing an extremist right wing putsch in Europe at present.
Austria has recently narrowly avoided electing a neo-Fascist party into power, Mm Le Pen's party is on the rise in France, extremist groups in The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Italy have made calls to leave the E.U.   
Brexit contagion
The Brexits fought their campaign on a racist ticket; Farage has already been linked to the European far right, and Johnson has echoed Ukip's anti-emigrant stance - neither are to be trusted not to throw their lot in with the European extreme right.
"And that should be the concern of the UK how? "
Because Britain has just taken a step which has caused those price-rises ans whatever you personally might think of the Irish, Britain is responsible for whatever happens in Great Britain and ids duty bound to put right whatever damage has been done - that is what being part of Great Britain is all about me little Kluxer.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM

Teribus asks:
What percentage of Irish EU trade is with the UK?

16%.

I'm really sorry to see Britain - England, really - vote itself out of the EU. Apparently the EU has done terrible things to it. I don't know what they are.

I've seen the EU behave badly: over the refugees streaming out from under the bombs raining down on Syria and Afghanistan, and running north from the horrors of Somalia - our descendants will look at us the way that we look at the British over the Famine in Ireland. I've seen the EU behave badly over Greese; I'll never forget the sight of Tsipras, the new Greek prime minister, come cringing like a beaten dog out of his first meeting with the bullies. They haven't behaved well towards Ireland, where a completely innocent population has been forced to pay the debts of crooked bankers interlocked with other international crooks.

But in terms of legislation, the EU has been a force for good since it started; we'd have had a long wait for equal pay for women, and for all kinds of other worker rights and human decencies, if we were a bunch of separate little nations in competition.

A bad day for Europe, a bad day for Britain, and they've really screwed Ireland.

Think of this one little example: since most of Ireland's imported food (like most of Britain's) comes from the EU, it has been found convenient to supply it through British centres that have treated Ireland as a 'region'. If this continues, Ireland will have massively inflated food prices due to customs, tariffs and two changes of currency - out of the euro into the pound; out of the pound again into the euro. If the system is changed and the food flies directly from Europe, it will still be expensive, due to the loss of economies of scale.

I know they weren't thinking of us, or of anyone except themselves, but - Albion perfide.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?




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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

"Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU.

"It's just been announced that six foreign ministers of the E.U. member states (not just Junker) have asked that Britain leave as soon as possible."

They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK.

"It's also been announced in Ireland that prices in the shops in the Border counties have been seriously effected by Britain leaving."

And that should be the concern of the UK how? Pretty certain that prices in the shops in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain have remained the same as they were on the 22nd June. Bit of profiteering by the latter-day "Gombeen Men" Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

This is a state of affairs which is not of my (and 37 million others making. Of the other 17 million they will feel the same when the penny drops how they were lied to.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

"Money, Security & Law"
The State before the people again - which is..... what's the word I'm looking for - begins with 'F'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM

It's also just been announced that NorthernIrish Post offices have received a record number of requests for Irish passport application forms.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM

"Those who are cheering on Junker & Co., "
Who would that be - nobody is "cheering him on, just pointing out what he has to do in his position.
Britain's leaving has placed the E.U. in a position of having to defend the rest of the member states.
It is the job of the commision to defend the Union from possible further damage and it the discretion of the president to decide how that should be done - his first priority is to the organisation itself and not defecting members.
Once again, Britain wants its cake having decided to eat it.
As it stands, Britain is a deeply divided state within itself standing to lose its Great Britain identity.
Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave.
The elected Prime Minister has been forced by the situation to resign, the leader of the opposition faces a vote of no confidence, all due to the 'leave' vote.
Attempting to appease Britain as it now stands would be like inviting a warring family to use your spare room.
It's just been announced that six foreign ministers of the E.U. member states (not just Junker) have asked that Britain leave as soon as possible.
It's also been announced in Ireland that prices in the shps in the Border counties have been seriously effected by Britain leaving.
I fine mess you've got us into Stanley!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM

"to contemplate that, come the autumn, the country is almost certainly going to be ruled by a man for whom not a single elector has voted."

Really?? The Conservatives are going to elect someone to the office of Prime Minister who is not a duly elected member of the House of Commons? How are they going to do that?

As to what will settle things - and it will not be whatever Junker & Co give out as sound bytes - it will come down to Money, Security & Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM

Look at these maps Jim.
The largest of the few Remain areas in Englandare London