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BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

robomatic 02 Jun 16 - 11:04 AM
Donuel 02 Jun 16 - 11:26 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM
Megan L 02 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM
Senoufou 02 Jun 16 - 01:31 PM
DMcG 02 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM
Teribus 02 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 16 - 02:10 PM
EBarnacle 02 Jun 16 - 02:48 PM
Pete from seven stars link 02 Jun 16 - 03:37 PM
DMcG 02 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM
DMcG 02 Jun 16 - 04:42 PM
akenaton 02 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM
gnu 02 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM
Allan Conn 02 Jun 16 - 06:43 PM
Allan Conn 02 Jun 16 - 06:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 16 - 08:26 PM
DMcG 03 Jun 16 - 02:19 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 16 - 02:29 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 16 - 02:34 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM
Acorn4 03 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM
Mr Red 03 Jun 16 - 04:26 AM
Jack Blandiver 03 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM
Allan Conn 03 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM
Allan Conn 03 Jun 16 - 07:07 AM
G-Force 03 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM
Allan Conn 03 Jun 16 - 07:20 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Jun 16 - 07:48 AM
Allan Conn 03 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM
Mr Red 04 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM
Georgiansilver 04 Jun 16 - 06:19 AM
akenaton 04 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM
Allan Conn 04 Jun 16 - 07:44 PM
Teribus 05 Jun 16 - 02:16 AM
Allan Conn 05 Jun 16 - 05:02 AM
Allan Conn 05 Jun 16 - 05:10 AM
Allan Conn 05 Jun 16 - 05:19 AM
Mr Red 05 Jun 16 - 05:40 AM
akenaton 05 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM
Acorn4 05 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM
Howard Jones 06 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM
akenaton 06 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM
G-Force 06 Jun 16 - 08:18 AM
The Sandman 06 Jun 16 - 11:48 AM
Acorn4 06 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM
Stanron 06 Jun 16 - 03:12 PM
akenaton 06 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 16 - 05:21 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 16 - 01:46 AM
Teribus 07 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM
Llanfair 07 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM
Georgiansilver 07 Jun 16 - 05:35 AM
Llanfair 07 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 07 Jun 16 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 16 - 06:03 PM
vindelis 07 Jun 16 - 07:05 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Jun 16 - 11:05 PM
Teribus 08 Jun 16 - 02:47 AM
G-Force 08 Jun 16 - 04:35 AM
Georgiansilver 08 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM
akenaton 08 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Jun 16 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 08:38 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM
SPB-Cooperator 08 Jun 16 - 10:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 08 Jun 16 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM
Georgiansilver 08 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 16 - 02:25 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 16 - 07:47 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM
Teribus 09 Jun 16 - 03:40 AM
DMcG 09 Jun 16 - 03:42 AM
Teribus 09 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Jun 16 - 04:28 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM
akenaton 09 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM
Stanron 09 Jun 16 - 07:51 AM
DMcG 09 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM
Pete from seven stars link 09 Jun 16 - 11:19 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Jun 16 - 12:17 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Jun 16 - 12:19 PM
MikeL2 09 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 16 - 06:20 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jun 16 - 08:24 PM
Teribus 10 Jun 16 - 03:53 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 16 - 04:10 AM
SPB-Cooperator 10 Jun 16 - 05:10 AM
Teribus 10 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM
Teribus 10 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM
Stu 10 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM
Stu 10 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM
Pete from seven stars link 10 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 16 - 11:31 AM
The Sandman 10 Jun 16 - 08:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 16 - 08:48 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 16 - 02:27 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM
The Sandman 12 Jun 16 - 04:01 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 12 Jun 16 - 07:02 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 16 - 09:28 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 16 - 09:37 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 12 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM
The Sandman 12 Jun 16 - 01:07 PM
The Sandman 12 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 12 Jun 16 - 02:46 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 02:53 PM
Teribus 13 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 04:03 AM
Teribus 13 Jun 16 - 02:00 PM
Allan Conn 13 Jun 16 - 03:08 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Jun 16 - 04:05 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 16 - 07:52 PM
akenaton 14 Jun 16 - 03:08 AM
Teribus 14 Jun 16 - 03:08 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 16 - 06:53 AM
Teribus 14 Jun 16 - 08:16 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 14 Jun 16 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jun 16 - 06:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jun 16 - 10:53 PM
Teribus 15 Jun 16 - 01:54 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 03:21 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jun 16 - 03:22 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM
Teribus 15 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 16 - 07:56 AM
Wolfgang 15 Jun 16 - 08:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jun 16 - 09:24 PM
Stu 16 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jun 16 - 09:23 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 16 - 10:09 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jun 16 - 10:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jun 16 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 02:16 PM
Allan Conn 16 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM
Donuel 16 Jun 16 - 02:30 PM
Teribus 16 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM
Teribus 16 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM
Stanron 16 Jun 16 - 04:07 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM
Mrrzy 16 Jun 16 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jun 16 - 06:00 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 16 - 06:35 PM
Teribus 17 Jun 16 - 02:14 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 16 - 02:48 AM
Senoufou 17 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 06:11 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 17 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 16 - 10:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 16 - 12:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 16 - 01:36 PM
The Sandman 17 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 16 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 17 Jun 16 - 03:16 PM
robomatic 17 Jun 16 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM
Teribus 17 Jun 16 - 06:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jun 16 - 08:48 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM
Teribus 18 Jun 16 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM
Teribus 18 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM
Teribus 18 Jun 16 - 05:36 AM
Teribus 18 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 16 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM
Stanron 18 Jun 16 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM
robomatic 18 Jun 16 - 05:59 PM
Teribus 18 Jun 16 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 16 - 06:26 PM
peregrina 18 Jun 16 - 06:52 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 16 - 08:20 PM
Teribus 18 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 16 - 08:57 PM
peregrina 19 Jun 16 - 04:33 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 16 - 04:59 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 16 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 16 - 06:06 AM
peregrina 19 Jun 16 - 06:07 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 19 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM
peregrina 19 Jun 16 - 06:49 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 16 - 07:18 AM
peregrina 19 Jun 16 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 16 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 16 - 09:10 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM
peregrina 19 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM
Mrrzy 19 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Jun 16 - 01:02 PM
peregrina 19 Jun 16 - 01:51 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 16 - 06:03 PM
brashley46 19 Jun 16 - 09:55 PM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 01:54 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 02:32 AM
Megan L 20 Jun 16 - 03:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 07:43 AM
DMcG 20 Jun 16 - 09:22 AM
Stanron 20 Jun 16 - 09:39 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 20 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 20 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 11:20 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 16 - 11:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 01:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jun 16 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM
robomatic 20 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 20 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 20 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 20 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM
Teribus 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM
akenaton 20 Jun 16 - 05:31 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 16 - 05:32 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 16 - 05:36 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 16 - 05:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 16 - 02:43 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 21 Jun 16 - 05:53 AM
Stanron 21 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM
Teribus 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM
Raggytash 21 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Jun 16 - 11:03 AM
DMcG 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM
DMcG 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM
Teribus 21 Jun 16 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 16 - 12:50 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 21 Jun 16 - 12:59 PM
Raggytash 21 Jun 16 - 01:24 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 16 - 01:25 PM
Raggytash 21 Jun 16 - 01:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jun 16 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jun 16 - 02:06 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 16 - 02:13 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM
akenaton 22 Jun 16 - 03:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM
Stanron 22 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 05:59 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 16 - 06:05 AM
Georgiansilver 22 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM
akenaton 22 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM
Wesley S 22 Jun 16 - 08:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM
Stanron 22 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 16 - 08:44 AM
Raggytash 22 Jun 16 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 09:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM
Stanron 22 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM
Teribus 22 Jun 16 - 11:29 AM
Teribus 22 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM
Georgiansilver 22 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 16 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 11:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 12:00 PM
Greg F. 22 Jun 16 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 16 - 01:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 01:11 PM
Teribus 22 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM
Teribus 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 01:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM
akenaton 22 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM
Joe Offer 22 Jun 16 - 06:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 06:57 PM
Stanron 22 Jun 16 - 08:06 PM
Joe Offer 22 Jun 16 - 08:47 PM
The Sandman 22 Jun 16 - 08:54 PM
Greg F. 22 Jun 16 - 09:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 16 - 10:19 PM
Teribus 23 Jun 16 - 01:36 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 16 - 01:41 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 16 - 02:18 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 04:03 AM
Stanron 23 Jun 16 - 04:18 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM
Teribus 23 Jun 16 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 07:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 07:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 08:21 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 16 - 08:39 AM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM
Stanron 23 Jun 16 - 08:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM
DMcG 23 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 09:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 09:56 AM
Teribus 23 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 10:24 AM
Teribus 23 Jun 16 - 12:04 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 03:01 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM
Ed. 23 Jun 16 - 03:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM
Ed. 23 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 16 - 04:48 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 16 - 08:23 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM
Stanron 23 Jun 16 - 11:36 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 16 - 11:39 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jun 16 - 12:46 AM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 01:59 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jun 16 - 03:05 AM
akenaton 24 Jun 16 - 03:10 AM
Raggytash 24 Jun 16 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 04:00 AM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM
Raggytash 24 Jun 16 - 04:08 AM
DMcG 24 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM
DMcG 24 Jun 16 - 04:22 AM
MikeL2 24 Jun 16 - 04:57 AM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM
MikeL2 24 Jun 16 - 05:12 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM
DMcG 24 Jun 16 - 05:29 AM
Donuel 24 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM
Raggytash 24 Jun 16 - 05:37 AM
Stu 24 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM
Stu 24 Jun 16 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM
peregrina 24 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM
Greg F. 24 Jun 16 - 08:35 AM
Donuel 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jun 16 - 08:50 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 16 - 08:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 16 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 09:06 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 16 - 09:17 AM
Brian May 24 Jun 16 - 09:22 AM
Raggytash 24 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jun 16 - 09:44 AM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 09:47 AM
Stu 24 Jun 16 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 11:00 AM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 11:01 AM
Ed. 24 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM
MikeL2 24 Jun 16 - 11:30 AM
akenaton 24 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM
EBarnacle 24 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM
Jack Campin 24 Jun 16 - 12:09 PM
Stu 24 Jun 16 - 12:14 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM
EBarnacle 24 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 12:37 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 16 - 12:41 PM
olddude 24 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 16 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM
Mrrzy 24 Jun 16 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jun 16 - 06:08 PM
EBarnacle 24 Jun 16 - 06:11 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 16 - 06:13 PM
Teribus 24 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 06:18 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 16 - 06:34 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 07:16 PM
Brian May 24 Jun 16 - 07:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 16 - 07:48 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 08:07 PM
Greg F. 24 Jun 16 - 08:11 PM
Donuel 24 Jun 16 - 08:16 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM
Stanron 24 Jun 16 - 09:01 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 01:28 AM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 04:20 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 05:43 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM
Raggytash 25 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM
gnu 25 Jun 16 - 10:54 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 12:27 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM
Thompson 25 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 03:38 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM
Teribus 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM
akenaton 25 Jun 16 - 04:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 04:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 16 - 05:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 16 - 05:12 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 16 - 05:35 PM
Thompson 25 Jun 16 - 08:04 PM
Raggytash 26 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM
Greg F. 26 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 02:24 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 16 - 02:31 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 16 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM
Thompson 26 Jun 16 - 04:51 PM
Teribus 26 Jun 16 - 05:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 06:12 PM
Teribus 26 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM
Bugsy 26 Jun 16 - 09:09 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 16 - 11:38 AM
robomatic 27 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM
DMcG 27 Jun 16 - 02:33 PM
Stu 27 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM
akenaton 27 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM
Greg F. 27 Jun 16 - 08:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jun 16 - 08:33 PM
robomatic 27 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM
Stanron 28 Jun 16 - 01:22 AM
Raggytash 28 Jun 16 - 02:02 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 05:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM
JHW 28 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 05:44 AM
Thompson 28 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 AM
Raggytash 28 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM
Thompson 28 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM
akenaton 28 Jun 16 - 07:47 AM
Thompson 28 Jun 16 - 08:19 AM
Raggytash 28 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM
Greg F. 28 Jun 16 - 10:02 AM
Stu 28 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM
Penny S. 28 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM
Georgiansilver 28 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 16 - 12:18 PM
Teribus 28 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM
peregrina 28 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM
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Subject: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:04 AM

Brits have a vote coming up later this month (Happy June).

Is this a U.K. vote? Scots and all?

Are Yanks allowed to weigh in.

I think those on the East side of the pond should think seriously about staying economically related to the Continent. You've been allowed to keep the Pound note and Special Relationship and all, you might not want to be associated with US should we select "The Donald" as our chief executive.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:26 AM

I'm glad you brought it up.

When Trump was asked this question it had to be explained to him at length.

Finally he answered "yep they should leave."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

"You've been allowed to keep the pound note..."

Wrong.

1. The pound-note went out of circulation in 1988 (28 years ago!).
2. We weren't "allowed" to stay out of the Euro, it's each nation's right to choose whether to adopt the Euro or retain their own currency.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM

economically related to the Continent.

Europe is failing economically.
The rest of the world is doing better.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM

"Europe is failing economically."
Thanks to Mad Maggie - Britain has nothing to base her economy on - no industries, no natural resources and an employment situation that spirals ever upward.
Ideally, a half-decent, truely democratic political situation might help, but we're further from that than we ever where.
'Bout time Britain swallowed its Xenophobia bullet and made pro[er use of Europe; it really isn't in the position to go it alone.
Just try to imagine a country run by the nice Mr Farrago and another across the Pond run by Despicable Donald, - that should do it.
Jim Caroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM

I get really sick of people telling me what to do, what to think and how to act. I am sick of politics there isn't an honest one among them. I wont tell you how to brush your teeth don't tell me how to wash my face and we will get along ok.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:31 PM

I'm voting one way and my husband is voting the other. My sister laughed and said, "You may as well both stay at home. Your votes will cancel eachother out!"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

I am casting my daughter's vote by proxy. If we vote opposite ways - which I doubt - I will be putting two votes in the same box that cancel each other...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM

We weren't "allowed" to stay out of the Euro, it's each nation's right to choose whether to adopt the Euro or retain their own currency.

Not true, might have been the case once, but not now. Any country joining now must adopt the Euro as it's currency. That came in with the Lisbon Treaty that wasn't a Treaty because a number of countries raised objections and threatened to use their vetoes, so they called it something else under some sort of backdoor EU scheme and got it through (Gordon Brown could explain it to everybody) - that's the EU for you - about as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable as can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:10 PM

Thanks to Mad Maggie - Britain has nothing to base her economy on - no industries, no natural resources and an employment situation that spirals ever upward.

Did you mean unemployment? If so, you were right first time.
Employment is increasing here.
Our economy and employment are much better than the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:48 PM

The first time the Isles left the rest of Europe, was when the Romans departed. For about 1000 years they painted themselves with woad and ran about fighting.
When the Normans came in, the first thing they did was attempt to suppress the local feuds and create a country. During the successive reigns of Gloriana and James, it actually happened. If the effects of the continent were not real there would have been no Protestant Reformation, English Rennaissance, etc.
Ultimately, you are probably better off staying in.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:37 PM

Most of us can't really grasp all the details of the argument and we vote best we can. One thing that decides me though is the huge amount of money contributed by the uk , much of it used to overpay grossly eu officials.                And there's no reason US posters should,nt chip in, judging by how many Brits comment on US politics !


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Interesting article recently you David Mitchell, partially inspired by a statement from Richard Dawkins (yes, him!) saying few if any of us are in a position to *know* one way or the other, because the argument is almost entirely about economic forecasts which are unreliable at the best of times, and completely incapable of addressing what the situation will be in, say, 50 years time any way, when the decision will still be in place.. I hear constant wails that we the voters want "the facts"; sorry, but there aren't any, at least in economic terms.   The immigration question isn't much clearer, to be honest. So we are about to determine the future of the country on a national survey of 'gut feelings', which Mitchell and DWkins felt , as I interpret it, to be a total abdication of the responsibility of the Politician class. And I tend to agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:42 PM

David Mitchell's article


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM

As I have said before, the whole issue hinges on the horrific and ever increasing rates of immigration from the poorer Eastern European countries.
"Free Movement of Labour", was accepted without recourse to the UK electorate ......"to make us more competitive in the global economy", said Mr Blair. That phrase means exploiting cheap labour to benefit the Exchequer. It is impossible to control, just as the EU is impossible to reform.
The problem with that policy is that it negatively affects the poorest people indigenous to UK.... young and unskilled.
They are priced out of the market by the huge influx of immigrants, who can in the main live much more cheaply, as they are here for a relatively short time and do not have the expense of buying or renting a house, or starting a family. Round this area groups of young male immigrants live communally and send much of their wages back to Eastern Europe.

The policy is not only bad for our untrained young people but for the countries the immigrants hail from, as they are starved of workers to construct their own infrastructure and maintain their own public services. The policy has been ill thought out and has contributed to the debacle we see all over Europe, if we don't leave now, we could tie ourselves to a sinking ship.

The opposition to getting out of the EU, among the so called liberal left is purely ideological.......a mad belief in "equality" under all circumstances, regardless of the long term consequences.....Remind you of anything previously discussed ??


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM

Relinquish sovereignty? Why would anyone do such a thing? Give up the right to hold politicians accountable for their actions? Why would anyone do such a thing? Kowtow to corporations and their political puppets? Why would anyone do such a thing?

My questions are brief but they are to the point.

I don't have a dog in your fight so my opinion doesn't matter in your fight. But, here in Canada, we endure NAFTA and it's a big and vicious dog. Now we face CETA and the TPP. They are even bigger dogs.

Don't let the bastards scare you with gloom and doom bullshit. Get out while the getting is good. Be free of domination from outside your borders. You are Britain. Act like it. Lead the Commonwealth out of these chains.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:43 PM

I think E Barnacle is being a bit unfair about the Isles in between the Roman and Norman invasions. The idea that this was just a bunch of disparate peoples continually fighting whilst continental Europe was peaceful surely doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Likewise it ignores the fact that there was art, literature, organised religion and emerging countries way before the Normans arrived. This was the period of St Augustine, the Celtic Church, the Lindisfarne Gospels and Book of Kells, the writings of the Venerable Bede, and of course in particular the emergence of both the Scottish and English kingdoms which were relatively early established European states. European influence in the form of the Danish and Norse invasions were hardly stabilising and the arrival of the Normans hardly brought a civilising force compared with what had been before. The harrowing of the north in particular was savage.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:48 PM

Backwoodsman it was only £1 notes issued by the Bank of England that went out of circulation in the 1980s. Not all British £1 notes. I'm not sure when they went out of circulation but Bank of Scotland and Clydesdale £1 notes lasted much later than that - and RBS £1 notes (though you don't come across them often) are actually still in circulation.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:26 PM

The people you mostly hear arguing for staying in would convince you to vote out, until you hear the ones arguing for getting out, who would drive you to vote to stay in.

Still, being in the EU guarantees a fair number of workers rights that would be under threat if we get out; and it also guarantees against some future government bringing back capital punishment. And leaving would reinforce Irish Partition by making the border one with the EU as well as with the rest of Ireland. And it looks as if the TTPI may have had its teeth drawn, which would remove one reason for voting to leave.

One personal upside of a vote to leave I suppose would be the likelihood that it might lead to Scotland breaking away, and Great Britain reverting to being an island rather than a nation. But I don't think that's what too many Brexit voters realise is a likely consequence if they win.

So I'll vote to stay, but without much enthusiasm. The EU needs a lot of changes in the direction of greater democratic control - but since they are far far removed from the ones that Cameron was trying to get and failed, we might be able to get them by joining with the people in other countries who would like the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:19 AM

Those are great questions, gnu, which people should be thinking deeply about but may not be. But the answers may not be what you expect. Take sovereignty for example. It is relinquishing some rights to self government in exchange for others. It is quite possible to argue we are in large part rules by big businesses rather than parliament. Fighting that requires coordinating effort across Europe and cannot done by the Uk on its own. In that respect, being in the EU increase sovereignty and leaving decreases it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:29 AM

"when the Romans departed. For about 1000 years they painted themselves with woad and ran about fighting."
.,,.

I agree with Mr Conn's demolition of this fatuous comment from one 'Barnacle'. Can just see Alfred the Great or Canute running about covered with woad, can't you!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:34 AM

... and what's with this 1000 years? Up to the 1470s eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

Allan Conn - whilst there may still be Scottish £1 notes in circulation, they are not Legal Tender, although they are generally accepted by traders. In fact, Scotland has no Legal Tender, that being restricted to notes and coins issued by The BoE. (Rampant Scotland.com).

Teribus - there's no 'may have been the case' about it, it was the case when the Euro was initially adopted by 11 member-states on 1/1/99. So my point remains true - the UK wasn't 'allowed' by anyone to retain Sterling as its currency, it was its right to choose whether to keep Sterling or adopt the Euro. Fortunately, it chose Sterling.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM

I have stopped listening to any of the debates as the whole thing has degenerated into farce - a travesty as it's such an important decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:26 AM

Are Yanks allowed to weigh in. why not? Obama did.
As long as we can be candid on our opinions about Trump


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM

Remember - only Wetherspoons have the Brexit facts. Whilst hitherto partial to their full-English (especially in the hoary timbered gloom of the Royal Hop Pole in Tewkesbury of a merry May morn) I confess to having lost my appetite of late...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM

Backwoodsman but they (ie the Scottish notes) are legal currency and anyway Bank of England notes are not themselves legal tender throughout the UK. They are only legal tender in England and Wales!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:07 AM

Ooops sorry and I think the Royal Mint's website takes precedence over the Rampant Scotland site!

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

What's the spring-breathing jess'mine and rose,
   What's the summer, with all its gay train,
Or the plenty of autumn, to those
   Who've barter'd their freedom for gain?

Well, we bartered our freedom, but did we get the gain?

Personally, I'm not too bothered whether we'll be tuppence a week better off or tuppence a week worse off, I just want to get out from under the EU jackboot. But then, I voted 'out' in 1975, and was roundly vilified for it at the time.

Now, to (mis)quote Pete Townshend, I hope WE WON'T BE FOOLED AGAIN.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:20 AM

And neither MGM Lion or myself even touch on Barnacle's the Gloriana/James creating a country thing! What country would that be that Elizabeth I created? Surely not England! And she didn't create GB either. Her dying meant that a Scottish king succeeded to her throne so hardly her creating any country. And neither did James actually create a new country/state. He wanted to but it didn't happen as neither existing country wanted anything to do with it. One country was created decades later through the Cromwellian conquest but it didn't last more than a few years. GB wasn't actually created as one state until 1707 more than a century after Elizabeth died.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:48 AM

Mr. Conn, I bow to your superior Googling-skills, and I withdraw. 😄😎


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM

Actually I did know the info. Just posted the second post and gave the link from an official source as proof. Saves getting into the Yes it is - no it isn't kind of discussion!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM

Aaaaahh-yup to that, Allan! Leave that to the regulars! 😎


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM

GB wasn't actually created as one state until 1707 more than a century after Elizabeth died.
Union was the result of greed and lack of due diligence. Scotland was bankrupt and England was happy to step in, just like they did when RBS and Halifax/BoS got greedy and less than diligent.
History repeats itself, it has to, nobody is listening.
There will be other Greeces, I confidently predict.

That is the strength of a Union, and why they have regulations.
Love it or hate it you gotta be careful of who you elect either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:19 AM

As the fifth wealthiest economy in the world, how can Britain manage without the EU?. We should get out and spend the £50.000,000 a day we pay to the EU on our failing NHS, British steel, our own farms(of which many are being paid NOT to produce cattle or arable products) We can have our troops back to protect us if necessary... and employ more if needed. We can control our own borders re immigration. We will no longer be governed by the powers that be in Brussels.. (name one of them if you can). It might be a little tough at the start but we will prosper eventually as Norway have done... they stayed out and still have the trade... their workers are some of the best paid in the world. The EU needs Britains' money but do we really need their failing economy... I think not. Why should we be governed by an almost secret EU society in Brussels~? I'd like to see us get back to what we know and understand. We had free trade with the world before joining the EU. Why can we not have the same~? We are still mostly allies, not enemies..... why should that suddenly stop. By the way.. this is one Brits view of it all... although many on Facebook agree with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM

The latest edition of question time may be a help to you Americans who are struggling to understand what all the fuss is about

Mr Frank Field gives reasoned replies to the questioners.


BBC Question Time.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 07:44 PM

Mr Red the idea that Scotland was bankrupt so England stepped in to help is a very simplistic and Anglocentric view on history which doesn't stand up to any kind of serious scrutiny.

Scotland was in a bad way in the 1690s for various reasons and after Darien the Scottish Parliament came to the conclusion that the regal union simply wasn't working for Scotland as the monarch always favoured the interests of the larger kingdom over the smaller one. Some of the Scottish parliamentarians saw a fuller union as a solution as the situation as it was saw Scotland suffer through loss of normal trading partners because of association with England's wars - without having the benefits of full access to the emerging empire. However the solution the Scottish parliament chose was to distance itself more from England rather than a fuller union.

Various Acts were passed. In 1703 parliament passed the Act Anent Peace And War as well as the Wine Act. The first laid down the rule that the shared monarch could no longer take Scottish troops to war for the benefit of England without the consent of the Scottish parliament. The second declared that Scots retained the right to trade with countries if England was at war with said countries. Basically they were talking about France!

Then in 1704 parliament passed the Act of Security which declared that on the death of Queen Anne the Scots could choose a different monarch from England. Basically they were inviting the Old Pretender to be monarch with the proviso that there was a conversion to Protestantism.

That was when the English parliament started on their plans to secure a full union. The English passed the Alien Act. Basically Scotland was offered full union terms which included compensation payments to certain aristos for their losses at Darien. However if the Scots declined to accept this offer of union then Scotland could be barred from trading with England or anywhere within the empire plus it would be against the law for Scots to inherit property in England. As the royal court was in London many of the Scottish aristocracy also had residences in London hence their property was being threatened.

So rather than jumping in to help Scotland the truth is nearer that the parliament in England did not want a return to there being a second completely separate kingdom on the island so the Scottish parliament was economically pressured into accepting union with the implied threat of military intervention being there too.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 02:16 AM

Allan, where is there any evidence for this "implied threat of military intervention"? I believe that during the period we are talking about here (1690 to 1707) you might have made some sort of passing reference to a group known as Jacobites who did not seem aversed to enlisting the help of France in securing what they wanted. Also no mention of the War of the Spanish Succession in which both Scotland and England were at war with France.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:02 AM

Rather than not addressing the Jacobites my post specifically states that the Scottish Parliament was laying the path for the Old Pretender to take the Scottish Crown on the death of Queen Anne. I took it for granted that readers would know this was the Jacobite period. That would have left England with a different totally separate kingdom on its northern border. A kingdom who's monarch felt himself the rightful king of England too and a kingdom which would be at least potential allies of France should relations with England worsen. That was my whole point! The idea that Scotland was needy so England stepped in to offer union because they wanted to help is just nonsense! England turned to wanting full union in the first decade of the 18thC because it wanted to secure control of the whole island and it wanted to protect the Hanovarian Succession which had been secured by an Act in the English Parliament without taking any note of the Scottish Parliament's wishes. My whole post was simply countering Red's simplistic take on history "Scotland was bankrupt so England was happy to step in". Anyone doubting that the Acts I mentioned aren't real just needs to check on the UK Parliament's own website which does not even try to hide the fact that Scotland was pressurised - in fact it openly says it. Link at the bottom.....

As to the implied threat of force. That come from the fact that there was an English military force waiting on the English side of the Border whilst the Scottish Parliament was debating the union proposals. I'm not a historian but I am a keen reader of Scottish history so the knowledge of that fact just comes from reading numerous books on the said subject. I'll give one example from "Scotland's Relations With England - A Survey To 1707" by William Ferguson

"By December the English force lying on the Border had been reinforced by a further 800 cavalry and was ready to move north at Queensbury's call"

Not much use going into what ifs as they can't be proved one way or another but the force was there for two possible reasons. Certainly it was there should the Scottish parliament accept union then need military assistance should there be a popular uprising as the idea of union was deeply unpopular amongst the Scottish population at large - however it was also seen as further pressure on the anti-union side in Parliament not knowing whether the force would cross the border or not should they vote the wrong the way!

My whole post was not trying to make political points in any way as how and why union came about in 1707 is not really relevant to us now 300+ years later. I'm interested in history.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/act-of-union-1707/overview/westminster-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:10 AM

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/act-of-union-1707/overview/westminster-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:19 AM

Sorry for some reason the blue clicky not going to the right page. You can navigate there by clicking on......

return to Home Page - click on About Parliament - click on Living Heritage - under the Changes In Legislative Authority list click on Act of Union 1707 - then in the list click on Westminster Passes The Alien Act 1705 and it brings up the page I was trying to post. Cut and past below...................

Westminster passes the Alien Act 1705

At Westminster on 29 November 1704, Lord Godolphin, the Lord High Treasurer, explained to the House of Lords why Queen Anne had approved the Scottish Act of Security - which preserved the Kirk, trade and the gains of the 1688 Revolution in Scotland.

He said the Act contained some undesirable elements, but it was essential that any Scottish threat to England's safety should be neutralised.

Economic pressure

The Tories wanted to censure Godolphin for allowing the Act to pass, but the Whigs said that would antagonise the Scots even more by implying that their legislature was inferior to the English. It was far better, they said, to bring union upon the Scots through economic pressure.

Over the next few days Godolphin was deep in negotiations with the dominant group of Whigs - known as the Junto Whigs - in the English House of Lords, the first step towards the conclusive negotiations of 1706.

Two new Bills

When the Lords resumed their deliberations on Scotland on 6 December, two bills were proposed by Lord Somers, one of the Junto leaders, with Godolphin's support.

One offered fresh negotiations for a full incorporating union, with a single parliament and unified free trade area.

The other, an aliens bill, threatened that unless Scotland agreed to negotiate terms for union and accepted the Hanoverian succession by 25 December 1705, there would be a ban on the import of all Scottish staple products into England.

Scots would also lose the privileges of Englishmen under English law - thus endangering rights to any property they held in England.

Both bills became law early in 1705.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:40 AM

Mr Red the idea that Scotland was bankrupt so England stepped in to help is a very simplistic and Anglocentric view

Hmmm. The nature of communication these days. You can blame the internet, but it has been going on for years. viz. soundbites. But the facts remain:
Scotland was bankrupt. Just like Scottish Banks were. The options open in either case were numerous and all had drawbacks.
The banks thought they were too big to fail. In the event so did the government. The consequences otherwise were too devastating to contemplate. It can be argued that happened with the country in 1707. I am sure there were factions who had championed union since James 1 (aka 6) and before (MQS?), but faced with a crisis the power would shift. History is written by the winners. If you want the real story you had to be alive then. And on both sides.

Brexit/Eurin we are living it, and don't we know it!

As with Berwick on Tweed, the neverendum will leave hanging threads for the loosers to pull at. We are, after all, on the second lap. Ce n'est pas?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM

N'est-ce pas, shurely Jimmy?? :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM

OK, my take on the EU thing then then! I studied economics up to a point, but it seems to me that people need a degree or beyond to make a reasoned decision on June 23rd, so we are left to rely on the "experts" and this is where the problem starts, and we are bombarded with wave upon wave of bullshit and scare stories, so I've decided to adopt a different approach based on these "experts" and how much trust we can put in them. It makes rather depressing reading, but might encourage some of us who are befuddled by all the facts a figures to take part in the democratic process.

I decided to give them all an "arsehole" rating, which I'll abbreviate to "a rating" for short, and work out which of the two sides has the biggest "arsehole" rating and then vote for the other side.

The "in" side comes off very badly at the moment here with the 3 biggest arseholes, Blair, Cameron and Osborne - I would give Blair an "a rating" of 100, and Cameron and Osborne in the 90s. However, the "in" side aren't having it all their own way, as the "out" side has its own big hitting arsehole in Rupert Murdoch who would also have an "a rating" somewhere in the mid 90s. Some of the "out" people have in fact succeeded in reducing their "a rating" lately, such as Michael Gove now he is not winding up teachers, but I do stress that it is important not to make a decision at this point as some of the big players may dramatically increase their rating as the vote gets nearer including Nigel Farage; also the "in" campaign also has some important players like Jeremy Corbyn who have a very low "a rating" although this is somewhat offset by his lack of overall enthusiasm. It also pays not to be too hasty in lowering an a-rating for people like Ian Duncan Smith, who have suddenly had this "Road to Damascus" moment and now see themselves as the champion of the common man. Caution advised here!

It would however be impossible for Tony Blair to increase his "a rating" as he is already at the top of the scale. It is also important to distinguish those with a high "a rating" from those who are merely irritating like Liz Kendall and Anna Soubry. So, on the day I will probably take the five or six leading campaigners on each side and tot up the "A ratings" before voting - it's all to play for! Hope this makes as much sense as most of the other stuff posted on the subject?

It is important to stress that an overall picture of behaviour be built up based on history before the EU debate began as well as during the debates.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM

I am genuinely undecided. My instinct is to Remain. I voted to join the Common Market, and I think the economic arguments for doing so still stand. The freedom and flexibility to live and work anywhere offer greater opportunities, although personally I have have no plans to take advantage of them. My children might though.

EU has created relationships and a shared mutual interest between countries which were traditionally hostile to one another. It is now unthinkable that those countries could go to war again. It is easy for those of us who grew up after the War to take this for granted, but history shows it is not inevitable. Of course, the UK leaving the EU would not mean that it falls apart, but it would be a destabilising influence ata time when the EU is under a number of pressures, from Greece's problems to the influx of refugees. So I don't think it would be good for us to do anything which could make things worse.

On the other hand, I identify as British rather than European. As an institution, the EU is dysfunctional and the ruling bureaucracy appears to be pursuing its own agenda rather than following the direction of the elected governments and the European Parliament. Closer co-operation is one thing, but I don't believe a European state is achievable or desirable - we are all too different, with different languages, cultures and outlooks, to be forced into a one-size-fits-all state.

I can see the arguments on both sides. What does infuriate me is the timing of this - there is no particular reason to raise this now, the timing is entirely due to Cameron's wish to neuter sections of his own party. If it blows up in his face and the vote is to leave, we face considerable uncertainty and short-term pain - whether there will be long-term gains is anyone's guess. If the vote is to remain, it will make it much harder to revisit the question if an issue should arise with the EU that really should make us think again.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM

Good post Mr Jones, although I favour immediate exit.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:18 AM

I voted to join the Common Market

Did you? How did you do that? At the time of the 1975 referendum we had already been stitched up into the EEC for two years.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:48 AM

I am unconvinced by any of the arguments.I voted against joining. I am undecided


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

If we do leave will someone coin the word "brextricate"?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:12 PM

As some body has already pointed out, when we voted last, in the seventies, we were already a member of the European Economic Community. We were voting to remain or leave just like we are now. We did not know then that the intention was to become a United States of Europe. This information was kept hidden, presumably because the planners did not trust the electorate to share their vision.

So the first strike against the idea and actuality of the EU is it's intrinsic dishonesty and it's usurpation of democracy. It's a tyranny.

The idea itself is worthy. After two world wars in the first half of the 20th century some sort of arrangement was needed to prevent a third. The idea of a United States of Europe was the solution. This idea is now about 70 years old. Very few people today drive a 70 year old car, I'd bet that nobody uses a 70 year old computer or telephone. The world has changed enormously in 70 years but the idea behind the EU has not changed. It has not adapted to a vastly changed world and is probably not capable of doing so.

So the second strike against the EU is it's inflexibility. It's getting to be a bit of a fossil.

Do you guys on the sunset side of the pond know that for the last 20 years the EU has not been able to present a verified set of accounts? No one knows what's happening to the money. Or if they do know they are not telling.

So strike three is that the EU is either corrupt or incompetent, or both. It does not take good care of OUR money.

Then there's the Parliament. Every country in the EU already has a parliament of elected reprersentatives. Why do we need an additional layer of government above the government we have? Is it just more highly paid jobs for the boys? This EU Parliament cannot initiate legislation. It can only vote on legislation proposed by an unelected committee of appointees. Oh, and the whole Parliament ups sticks for one week in every month and moves from Brussels to Strasbourg. Why? To satisfy French Pride.

So strike four is also parts of strike one and three. More democratic deficit. More wasted money and more, almost criminal, stupidity.

Guess how I'll vote.

There is still merit in the idea of a united Europe. It's the current implementation that is so completely flawed. Whilst the EU is incapable of reform, we should leave.

Oh yes, one final point. If you would really want to wipe the fat smirks from the faces of David Cameron and George Osbourne, and I'm sure some of you do, then vote LEAVE when you get the chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM

Labour voters, Mr Corbyn has been anti EU for most of his political life. At the moment he is being held to ransom by three quarters of the Parliamentary Labour Party who being Blairites, obviously see the megalith as a future gravy train.....It is an organisation, set up for the benefit of politicians and the rich industrialists.

Why would anyone vote to retain membership of such a cabal?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:21 PM

Two excellent posts from Howard Jones - 06 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM and from Stanron - 06 Jun 16 - 03:12 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 01:46 AM

Stanron is absolutely right. At the time of the '75 referendum, they all swore on a stack of Bibles that what we were voting on was a purely commercial organisation, absolutely guaranteed to have no political purposes or overtones whatsoever. Any fule could see even then that they lied in their filthy throats -- and so it has proved in ♠♠♠ to the power of ∞+.

Please, let us get free of this incubus; the only thing on which its two leading members, France & Germany, being in agreement, is hatred of us: one lot for our having had to rescue them from the other by defeating them, that other for that defeat. That stinking swine De Gaulle then demonstrated his gratitude for having rescued him and letting him ponce about in a silly uniform pretending to command the non-existent 'Free French', claiming to be the equal of Churchill & FDR and getting the French into all those meetings where they had no claim whatever to be ["cheese-eating" what was it the guy in the Simpsons called them?!] by kicking us in the teeth by keeping us out of the cozy little club set up with his erstwhile foes apparently for the sole purpose of keeping us out [Ok Ok: I say again, "just becoz you're paranoid doesn't mean thy are not out to get you"], when that pathetic loser Heath decided he would like to wallow in the glory of having got us in.

It will be evident that the whole concept makes me want to throw up. For gods sake let's get out!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM

Well said Michael I could not agree more.

Allan Conn the prudent placement and presence of English troops in the North at that time would have more to do with the possibility of Jacobite activity backed by the French from 1701 onwards. The Jacobites first "biggy" in 1715 was supposed to have been struck much earlier in the War of the Spanish Succession, they did make a serious attempt in 1708 but Admiral Byng managed to hold off the French Fleet and prevent French troops, arms and the "Old Pretender" from landing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Llanfair
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

It is going to be hard to make an informed decision, when the "facts" are so dodgy. My big concern is the time it would take to cut the strings if the voters decide to come out of the EU.
I can foresee all kinds of chaos as we extricate ourselves from a beaurocratic cobweb with strands touching all parts of our lives. Things will happen blamed on the exit, many to line pockets, as happened when we first joined (the price of butter and meat as an example).
Having said that, I'm leaning towards exit, mainly because Cameron wants to stay in!!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:35 AM

I ran across this whilst researching the In or Out issue. I found it interesting and informative... but like so many others in the U~K I am no academic in these things. Please read this and give me an honest opinion of whether it is correct. Best wishes.. Mike....................................

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Llanfair
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM

Mike.....Thank you, that's the first time I have really understood what's going on. All the other "information" I've seen has been rhetoric and half truths.
I feel I can make an informed choice now.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:58 PM

look at the other Europeans as neighhbours
I realise that Europe is no more run by beaurocrats than any othe country
I understand that all legistlation is scrutinised by all country's MEPs, elected by the people of the countries they represent.
I understand that the European laws are for ALL the people of Europe.
I recognise that all national interests are not the same as UK's
I recognise that UK borders are as good as and sometimes better than our neighbours and entry conditions for ILLEGAL immigrants will not change no matter who wins.
I have first hand experience of employers who will not work to the same rules as our neighbours and as such lobby our government via the Tory party to have them changed .
I have seen that the Tory party has tried to make anti trade union laws and do not want a Westminister government to be given carte blanche to do as they like while the labour paty is in decline.

On the lighter side I see Boris Johnson as a Moses trying to lead his flock out to the wilderness while taking the wrong tablets or is it 30 pieces of silver?

Seriously ...I see Michael Gove and cronies as advocates for unrestricted US involvement in providing healthcare in the UK and a rundown of the NHS.
Maybe I'm naive, but I wonder what do the leaders of the Brexit campaign have to gain personally and more importantly, financially, thro their backers.

ps I cast my postal vote today can anyone guess what I voted for?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:03 PM

Well said Kenny. I'd add a few more points. In the last fifty decades there has been no war between any of the EU democracies. I have never been called up. My son has never been called up. We have no Franco, Tito, Salazar or Greek colonels any more. If you join the EU you have to promise to be a democracy and to sign up to human rights rules. It works.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: vindelis
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:05 PM

I voted, for the first time, in June 1975. On that occasion I felt the Government had burned bridges by joining and it would be a retrograde step to leave, two years later. Having seen the benefits of equal ops, fair and open competition, Disability discrimination, Equality Diversity and Human Rights Commission; not to forget increases in maternity and the introduction of paternity leave; I feel we could be better off staying in.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 11:05 PM

"In the last fifty decades there has been no war between any of the EU democracies."

Shome mishtake, shurely?

A perfect example of the dangers of adopting the current BBC buzzword - 'decade' - hardly ever heard up to a few years ago, but seemingly now required, by those in authority, to be used at every conceivable opportunity by every public-facing employee.

Five decades? What's wrong with 'fifty years'?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:47 AM

I was rather mystified by that "Fifty decades" too.

Fifty decades is 500 years and in that time there have been dozens if not hundreds of wars between European countries.

Well put Georgiansilver.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:35 AM

I see it as an abusive relationship. If a woman is in an abusive relationship, she just has to get out of it, even if there may be a short term financial loss.

Well, we are that woman, and the EU is that relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

G-Force. I totally agree with that!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM

Sorry, I meant fifty years. Or five decades. Take yer pick! 🤓


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM

I think everyone is missing the point that mass migration is very bad for the poor Eastern European countries as well as our own country in the long term.
Who runs the public services and infrastructure in places like Poland or Romania? These places must be absolute hell holes for the poor.

"Free movement".....is simply another way of practicing exploitation, in fact it was explained to us by Blair as making us "more competitive".......what do you think he meant by that?

Personally I think its about time that we realised that the days of wine and roses are gone and we live a wasteful and empty lifestyle.
We expect everything...as a right and are willing to contribute as little as possible. Exploitation is evil, more evil than perceived racism......a good dose of reality is urgently required.

We fool ourselves that membership of this Union can protect our wasteful way of life, once again refusing to accept responsibility for our own wellbeing.....which of course will mean lower living standards for our spoiled middle class, more concentration on hard work to service our society and less bullshit about personal and minority rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

In what sense is the relationship "abusive?" That sounds a bit like someone's soundbite to me.

"Voting to bring back sovereignty" - well we'd better get out of NATO in that case and disentangle ourselves from US foreign policy, which we seem to be tied into at every turn. What kind of "sovereignty" do we enjoy when we're scared stiff of distancing ourselves from people like Dubya? Also, we'd better nationalise all the big corporations, run by unelected millionaires in their own interests and the interests of shareholders in order to make as fat a profit as possible and pay themselves massive bonuses, not the interests of their workers grinding away on the minimum wage or of their customers who are charged as much as possible just short of making them squeal, companies often banding together in unelected cartels in order to not have to cut prices. Frankly, this bogus "sovereignty" argument just makes me laugh. There IS an accountable European Parliament and we DO agree with almost all the laws they make. And we ALREADY have unelected lawmakers in this country, some of whom are men in frocks. The EU issues over "unelected" and "sovereignty" are as nothing compared to the democratic deficit we already put up with in this country. And the actual referendum, which Cameron had to promise when he thought Farage was going to nick dozens of his seats, is the most undemocratic thing of all. Tens of millions of non-experts being fed scaremongering bullshit from both sides, their fear of foreigners being mecilessly played on by the out campaign ("seventy million Turks might one day be able to move here" - Christ on a bike), a pack of lies being peddled about our contribution, impossible promises made to farmers that they'll still get the same same subsidies if we come out (like hell they will), hubristic talk about how the EU will still have to give us favourable deals even if we leave the single market. And I wonder how many of those millions actually know what the single market is and that, is we remain a part of it, free movement of people would remain mandatory. This campaign is going to be looked back on as an historical low point in this country. It's shabby and it's disreputable.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 08:33 AM

"Sorry, I meant fifty years. Or five decades. Take yer pick!"

I knew that, of course, Steve! But you're usually so precise, I found it impossible to refrain from poking fun! 😄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 08:38 AM

I was only speaking generally... 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM

Dunno about precise. I've spotted two instances in my longer post that evaded the attention of my proofreading. 😳


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:25 AM

While we are at it, we should also remove the unelected civil service who are largely responsible for framing and implementing legislation in the UK and leave it 100% to democratically elected representatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:30 AM

Didn't you know? The seventy million Turks are going to all live next door to the 5 million Rumanians would arrived 2 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM

Aye, bloody country's goin' ter t'dogs. They come here, tek us jobs, shag us women and run us bloody health service as well as wipin' all th'old people's bums in them 'omes. If only they'd just come 'ere fer t'bloody benefits, shut up an' stop interfering ' wi' everythin' else.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for those wise words Steve...... still laughing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:25 PM

Yes yes yes, there there; irony and parodic demolitions of one's opponents' arguments always make for good soundbite. But it can equally well be urged that membership of NATO, US alliance, & such precautions in case a military emergency might arise, which Steve claims above to be analogous, are just not equally prejudicial to our sovereignty, as would be making our daily economic and commercial transactions subject 24/7 to examination & interference from entities who do not necessarily bear us goodwill. As I say, such contentions make good soundbite; but not good practical sense IMO.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM

... & SPB, the Civil Service may both frame & implement our legislation; but they do not pass it, or just blithely go ahead & put it into operation, until 100% of it has indeed been passed by the elected representatives you rubricate. Or do you imagine that Sir Humphrey is just sitting there running the whole show with absolutely no ref whatsoever to Jim Hacker?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 07:47 PM

Michael, I'm wondering whether there's some medical condition that forces you to take comments literally and bypass all the intended sarcasm.

The latest farce is the breakdown of the voter registration system, meaning that thousands of people missed the deadline through no fault of their own. To its credit, the government has now extended the deadline by two days. Now most of those who are trying to register are (a) likely to vote and (b) young first-time voters who seem likely to vote remain. So guess what the leave campaign are saying. It's a fix. It's a ploy to get more remain voters onside. It's "gerrymandering" (no, really - I actually heard a leave spokesman saying that!). It seems that the leave campaign don't actually believe in the rather inconvenient democracy that they bleat about us losing by being in the EU. Ironic, eh? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM

Steve, they missed the deadline through their own stupidity. We've been advised for months now that we need to be registered to vote, and we've known the deadline, but those numpties left it until the last few hours to try to register. How is that 'no fault of their own'?

Anyone with at least one working brain-cell is aware that it's perfectly possible, indeed likely, that a computerised system can be swamped by excessive demand. So leaving registration until the final evening was sheer stupidity (or laziness) on their part.

No sympathy here for the stupid. Fuck 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:40 AM

"I have never been called up. My son has never been called up. We have no Franco, Tito, Salazar or Greek colonels any more. If you join the EU you have to promise to be a democracy and to sign up to human rights rules. It works." - Steve Shaw

I reckon that you and I are about the same age somewhere between 60 and 70 so I have got news for you:

Neither of us has ever been in danger of being "Called Up" and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU - It does however have a great deal to do with the UK abandoning National Service.

Same goes for your son.

Franco - died of natural causes his removal had nothing to do with the EU. Same goes for Tito and Salazar.

The Greek colonels relinquished their rule due to the 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus and one year later were tried for high treason and found guilty. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:42 AM

Well yes, Backswoodsman, they were silly to leave it so long [daughter of mine registered in part from Thailand and in part from Portugal ages ago..] But that is only one side of the argument. The other is that the government had a legal obligation to provide a means of registration and they failed in that duty, so in the event of a close vote the result would be open to legal challenge. It may well be that it was a mistake to leave the on-line systems open as long as the postal alternative, so when the almost-inevitable crash happened there would still be a legal alternative available, but they didn't, so there wasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM

Thank you MGM for your last two posts - saved me the trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 04:28 AM

DMcG - I don't disagree with what you say, however I was only contesting the 'no fault of their own' bit. They left it to the last minute - that's lazy and stupid, and their own choice, n'est-ce pas? So to say it was 'no fault of their own' is wrong.

So....fuck 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM

Trouble is, Steve, that you are just not very good at the 'sarcasm' bit. You have such a record of OTT assertions on all manner of topics that intentions of sarcasm on your part are liable to remain unidentified; and I have in any case already made the point that irony, sarcasm, satire, all such whevs, are, at the best of times & in the ablest of ✍✍ (which yours, I repeat, are not), liable to backfire and bite the perpetrators in the ɷ!

Still, keep on trying. I expect you'll make a proper point one of these fine days.

Regards

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

I have no doubt that the rules were changed as it was considered to be in the interests of the Remain campaign.
Just more gerrymandering.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 07:51 AM

akenaton wrote: Just more gerrymandering.

There are bound to be dirty tricks by those who have the most to loose. No one has more to loose than David Cameron and George Osbourne. If the UK votes to leave their careers are toast. Maybe George could remain as Chancellor but his hopes of being Prime Minister would go down to zero.

Perhaps the harder they try, the more people will see through their little tricks. Only two weeks to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM

Just listening to the secretary for Northern Ireland sticking her fingers in her ears and going "La la la". Whatever the result in the uk, EU citizens will be able to travel to Eire under free movement rules. If Britain does vote to leave then either you have no effective border between Eire and Northern Ireland, and hence free albeit illegal immigration indirectly into the rest of the U.K., or you have a strong border between Eire and NI, or between NI and the Rest of the U.K. It is ridiculous to just shrug and say there is no issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 11:19 AM

Am I under a misapprehension that if you are on the voting register that no further action is needed to vote in this one ?    I can think of no reason why an additional application would be required , unless there is some ulterior motive by the govt.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 12:17 PM

Correct, Pete - if you're already registered, there's no need to re-register D so, if you voted in the elections earlier this year, you're already registered. Only people who aren't already registered needed to register now.

FWIW, I was Regis,there'd prior to the recent elections, I received my postal-voting referendum papers, and I sent my vote in last week.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 12:19 PM

F***ing iPad predictive text shite!

I was registered prior.....!!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

Hi Stanron

< " Perhaps the harder they try, the more people will see through their little tricks. Only two weeks to go. ">

Too true, Many of us have seen through through them since day 1.

i know many around here, in Osborne's constituency who are voting to hopefully get him out !!!!!

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:20 PM

Well, until TTIP got filleted, and, more recently, probably blocked by the French, I was vaguely near the fence.

But every time I see Brexit propaganda it contains a pack of lies. For example the EU does not cost us £350m per week. And the implication that he con-servatives would spend that £350m or any other sum preserving the NHS is fanciful. The Brexiteers fanny on about workers' rights allegedly won by the trade unions, without any reference to the fact that the trade unions were castrated by the bitch Thatcher and have since been hogtied by voting and financial restrictions. The Brexiteers lie that UK holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks but EU 4 - in fact the UK 5.6 weeks includes 8 public holidays - exactly equal to the EU requirement of 4 weeks not including bank holidays - and pretty well all EU countries have more public holidays than we do. Every single Brexit alleged fact that I have checked with care has turned out to be false or misleading.

Then there is the endless rhetoric about floods of migrants destroying the UK's NHS and economy. Rubbish. Without migrant workers (a large proportion being from EU countries) the NHS would be short about 20% of its workforce, and would collapse. Migrants make a huge net contribution to our economy and are far less likely to claim benefits than the UK born.

The dishonesty of the Brexiteers has confirmed my intention to vote Bremain - and the huge leave posters on the gate of my grunting Neanderthal neighbour and the door of the pub over the road which is UKRAP central (your IQ drops 20% if you cross the threshold) reinforce that intention. So I am in the company of conservative MP Dr Sarah Wollaston, who recently jumped from the Brexit ship because she was no longer able to stand the Brexit lies.

Then look at the politically established Brexit supporters. Boris, Gove, Cummings, the toxic Matthew Elliott, IDS, Grayling, Whippingdale, Lawson, Carswell, der Fuhrage, Arron Banks, the untrustable gorgeous George Galloway, Lawson. Oh dear!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

And with apologies for the long cut and paste, here is a view from Tobias Kliem, a law lecturer I used to work with, who is German and has worked here for many years: -

"The Remain campaign so far has been an even bigger disappointment than the Leave campaign. So, in a sleepless moment of arguing over the internet I put some reasons for staying in the EU together. Feel free to copy / share / modify / disregard as evil Brussels propaganda.

1. Peace. Europe is the most violent continent on the planet. For many a century, we have been bashing each others' heads in over one stupid conflict after the other. Britain and France can't agree on dynastic questions? War. Austria, France, Sweden and a bunch of German states can't agree on a religion? War. Germany and France can't agree on the next king of Spain? War. An Austrian prince is shot in Serbia? War. Now, for the first time in history, we are looking back at 70 years of sometimes bitter political arguments without any of us ever reaching for a gun. Instead we have Parliamentary debates, heated discussions amongst governments and, in the very worst case, proceedings at the Court of Justice of the EU. Britain leaving the EU doesn't mean we start killing each other again tomorrow, but it means the very basis of this wonderful (albeit boring) stability is getting eroded. We have had periods of time in Europe where we believed the killing is over and a system of alliances not unlike NATO would protect that peace. Then the first world war happened.

2. Democracy. The EU can be improved, sure. I am quite critical of a lot of things in the EU, particularly about the influence and backroom deals of national governments, particularly of larger member states like Germany, France and the UK. National governments determine too much, and it would be good to give more powers to the European Parliament. But this would mean a more federal Union, and the last time I checked that's the last thing Brexiters want. And even the current system is very far from a being as undemocratic as Brexiters describe it, especially considering any alternatives. A non-EU UK will need to conclude many a trade agreement, which will almost certainly include EU like regulation of a large variety of things. UK consumers won't be too excited about genetically modified food from the US or carcigenic plastic from China, and these markets will have their own rules that could be problematic for the UK's business. All these rules will be negotiated behind closed doors by governments. And given the size of the respective markets, it is highly unlikely that the UK will have the upper hand in these negotiations. In the EU, these rules come from the Commission (which is appointed by 28 democratically elected governments and then approved and overseen by the democratically elected Parliament), the Council (the 28 democratically elected governments with a very strong UK voice) and the Parliament. No other international organisation that the Brexiters love so dearly - the WHO, NATO or whatever else they dream of - has anywhere near that standard of democracy.

3. Immigration. The UK gets a fantastic deal out of EU immigration. There is not a single statistic that doesn't show that immigrants don't contribute far more to the social system than they take out, and there is not a single statistic that doesn't show that immigrants don't steal, but create jobs. The NHS is one of the best examples - because of various reasons connected to the stupidity of running education like a private business, the UK does not have enough trained doctors and nurses. So instead of investing millions into decent medical schools, the UK gets these people for free. Spanish doctors, Romanian bankers or German University lecturers (cough) work their butts off and help contribute to this country. Plus, hundreds of thousands of English senior citizens get to enjoy warm temperatures living in the south of Spain.

4. Solidarity. After centuries of killing each other at the first possible opportunity, we now live in a Europe in which the taxes of German car industry workers are used to build bridges in Greece, and the taxes of Italian bankers are used to preserve nature reserves in Wales. I really struggle to understand why this is a bad thing. Sure, people tend to be egoistic, and right wing campaigners are on the rise everywhere in the world at the moment, but does that mean the UK should be on the forefront of this wave of ignorance and short-sightedness? No, it should be proud of its EU contributions. Helping to improve the infrastructure in Sicily is a far better long term use of UK tax money than buying another failed bank (and it really is a tiny, tiny part of the UK's budget). And the thought that any of these Brexiters would use the current EU contribution for protecting steel workers or helping the NHS should really have a look what Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage think about the NHS.

5. Economic Stability. This seems to be the only point David and Gideon can make in the Remain camp, so I don't need to explore this too deeply. But to talk about "Project Fear" when people point out that turning ones back on a Union responsible for more than 50% of the UK's trade brings a few uncertainties is a strange position. The nose dive the Pound is making every time the Brexit camp gains another percentage point is a bit of an indication of the markets' opinion (not that I give much on those, but I'm not a market loving conservative as most Brexiters are).

6. Law. For any left leaning person, this is difficult to write. Hasn't the CJEU decided (in Laval and Viking) that Unions are not allowed to enforce better working conditions over foreign companies? Hasn't the CJEU decided (in Dano) that states are allowed to withhold benefits for what the UK press would describe as bad immigrants? Yes. But for the UK's almost completely market friendly traditions, EU Law has been a breath of fresh air. Women's right to equal treatment in the job? EU Law. Consumer Protection rights? EU Law. Environmental protection? EU Law. A large proportion of workers' rights? EU Law. Hell, the EU even managed to tell our mobile phone companies that maybe they can't charge insanely high and completely unjustified roaming charges any more within the EU, something UK politics would usually let the market deal with (see the mess you call a train system). In the UK, most of this is regarded as "red tape", but I believe that laws are necessary to protect the weak.

7. Influence. The UK is a strong player because of its friends and allies. And no, no normal person in the US has ever heard of the phrase "special relationship". And definitely not Donald Trump.

8. Pro Brexit Folks. The right wing press and significant parts of the leave campaign are playing with really dangerous stuff here. They are not only waking the sleeping dragon, they are feeding it with babies so it gets the taste of human flesh. The anti-immigrant headlines of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express, the "part-Kenyan" remarks of Boris Johnson and the constant hints at the inherent criminal minds of Romanians from UKIP are pretty shocking. From a personal perspective, I moved to the UK almost 10 years ago and was amazed at how open minded and wonderfully multicultural this country is. Now, after paying taxes for 9 years and not claiming a penny in benefits, I feel more and more as if I am not wanted and as if I have to justify my presence here. If the Brexiters win, this will get much, much worse. The campaign rides on the back of a pretty xenophobic vibe, and the people voting for this will demand harsh immigration laws. Anybody believing that leaving the EU will lead to a more open immigration policy towards the Commonwealth nations should read Goethe's Sorcerors Apprentice. Plus the right wingers will need a new scapegoat.

9. Diversity. Isn't it great to live together, to travel visa free, to have the chance to move to France or Hungary or Sweden or Portugal or Poland or whatever? Isn't it wonderful to learn different languages, to experience different cultures, to eat different foods, to hear different viewpoints? This openness used to be the strength of Britain. All of a sudden it is all about "defending Britishness". What a load of rubbish.

10. Peace. Not just in Europe, but in the whole world: A lot of people see what went on here, and if you ever go to International Law conferences like I do, you will hear Africans, Asians and even US Americans talk about the EU with dreamy eyes. With all its flaws, this is a project that broke the cycle of eternal wars and turned bitter enemies into long lasting allies whose only disputes are about milk prices and fishing quotas. Why, oh why, should we destroy that and show the world that ultimately we're also too egoistic to get along?"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:24 PM

I'd like to remind people that there strictly speaking is no such country as Great Britain, and hasn't been since 1801. And in fact the only time there was a country with that name was between 1707 and 1801.

So the term "Brexit" is founded on an untruth, appropriately enough. Start as you mean to go on...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 03:53 AM

Does that go for Bremain as well Kevin? If so why not say so.

Must say Bridge that pal of yours Kliem doesn't half talk a load of rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 04:10 AM

Well that nails it then, Teribus. 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 05:10 AM

Teribus, An intelligent person, who disagrees with a contribution to a debate would respond with well reasoned, evidence-based counter-argument. What does that say about the intelligence of a person who is only capable of responding with inane crap like "...talk a load of rubbish". Well if people are polling to the polling stations with that attitude, I'f question their mental capacity to vote.

It does worry me that sbits like Fagarse, Gove, Hunt, Johnson, and that condescending git who was on question time last night - can't remember his name. gain more control within UK politics. And what is worse, is when then turn this wonderful country into a shit-hole, the scum will have dictated that I must be denied my right to live/work/retire in another EU country in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM

To be frank and honest with you SPB-Cooperator I would certainly agree with you but in this case I just couldn't be bothered, but felt like registering my opinion of Bridge's cut-n-paste of his pals opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM

Apologies SPB-Cooperator, but I see that you are the sort of intelligent person, who disparages people they don't see eye to eye by calling them silly names - e.g "that sbits like Fagarse" - Did you mean Nigel Farage by any chance? If so why not just say so - What does that say about you intelligence?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

Those nice folk at Bilderberg are deciding the future of Europe of the next few days, and we're not invited.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:24 PM
I'd like to remind people that there strictly speaking is no such country as Great Britain, and hasn't been since 1801.

.,,.
You reckon, Kevin? Please recite to yourself the full name of the entity that "UK" stands for: "The United Kingdom of [what was that???!] & Northern Ireland".

And what does the national plate say that they put on our cars when going abroad? Last time I looked it said "GB"...

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM

Great Britain is a geographical term not a political one.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for the clarification backwoodsman


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 11:31 AM

I've only seen "Bremain" used in the press one time, Teribus. Normally it's "Remain". But it's Brexit all the time - I don't think I've seen a single reference to "Exit campaigners".

"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" MGM. Precisely - one island, one part of an island. Neither are nations. As for what they put on cars going abroad, that's a sort of colloquial slang used by the authorities, rather like the way they still talk about "MOT tests" when we haven't had an MOT for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 08:27 PM

I am surprised by the number of irish people that have come up to me and told me to vote to leave


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 08:48 PM

I suspect you might get quite a lot of people in other countries in the EU who could say the same. For a variety of reasons...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 02:27 AM

'MGM. Precisely - one island, one part of an island. Neither are nations.'
.,,.
Ah, but you didn't say "no such nation", Kevin. You said "no such country". I still maintain there is -- even if it is a federation of 3 countries, it is still, in itself, a country... A USGB, perhaps?

Not but what this is just semantic play, really. As the late Prof Joad was wont to say at the drop of anybody's hat, "It all depends what you mean by...". We both know in this instance what we mean by...

≈≈M≈≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 03:57 AM

"I am surprised by the number of irish people that have come up to me and told me to vote to leave"
My experience is exactly the opposite
Of all the countries in Europe, Ireland benefited the best out of being a member, the success of The 'Celtic Tiger', Ireland's economic boom was due to her membership - it was the national and international Bankers who naused that up - not Europe.
One thing Britain's exit would mot certainly bring about is the necessity of passports to travel to and from Ireland and the border checkpoints between the Republic and the Six Counties will be a feature of our lives once again.
Presumably, in the event of further 'Troubles' - always a possibility, especially this time of year, it will be necessary to send troops to maintain order.
Britain leaving Europe will set the Peace Process back a quarter of a century.
It appears from this side of the Irish Sea that the Brexit Campaign has been more about 'winning back' a mythical independence that Britain can no longer have because of Thatcher's and her ilk's systematic destruction of Britain's Industry and less about the well being of Britain and her people.
I've never been a great fan of Europe's political agenda but I have come around to accepting the economic and social benefits of membership, when handled properly.
Britain's approach to membership has always been a "to be or not to be" one - completely a half-arsed of trying to get benefits without accepting any of the responsibility.
I found some of the public interviews on whether to say or go, somewhat quaintly archaic and in some cases, utterly ludicrous, dating beyond the Battle of Waterloo as far back as The Armada.
One thing is certain, exit will be an utter disaster for the unemployed who will not be able to find work in Britain and will no longer be able to travel abroad freely for work.   
Six years ago there were 397 million Britons living abroad - that figure has now accelerated considerably
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/so-many-brits-now-live-abroad-that-theyre-causing-immigration-debates-oh-the-irony-a6723006.
This appears to be the situation in Europe
This whole thing seems to be as thought through to me as anything else regarding immigration to Britain has - not at all
"What does that say about you intelligence?"
Wow - a bit of a 'Road to Damascus for you, of all people Teribus!
I'd have thought Farrago to be much nearer the point - the man's a Crypto-Fascist, beer-swilling buffoon whose policies go not go beyond getting rid of Johnny-foreigner.
His first job, if he ever attains any sort of authority, will be to muzzle members of his own party so as not to reveal what Ukip is really about.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM

Should read 3.97 Million
Too early in the morning
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

Aside from a lot of the Unionist tradition who appear to be drawn to Brexit like moths to a flame, about the only Irish people I can imagine wanting Brexit would be the occasional builder who worries about Polish competitors, maybe someone fancying stirring up another round of Troubles up North, or perhaps the odd one who reckons anything that harms England the way Brexit probably would is something to bring on.

Or of course someone who's run into the wrong kind of English football fans. I reckon in Marseilles this week there's a surge of French support for Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:01 AM

McGrath,you can imagine whatever you like my experience has been different from Jim Carrolls.
in my opinion, no one has produced convincing arguments on either side.    Europe is an inefficient bureaucratic empire that represents the interests of multinational capitalism, by stealth it has changed it is no longer what it was when we joined.. a trading group.
neither option appeals to me very much,what an appalling campaign on both sides, two groups of incompetent idiots


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:02 AM

Every country in the so called free world has an inefficient bureaucratic empire that represents the interests of multinational capitalism. The farmers subsidy situation in Scotland is a perfect example of this

If you vote Brexit you are giving a vote to unrestricted capitalism in the UK by their Tory Supporters.
The EU is a good method of restraint on the worst excesses of this.

GSS u maybe live in a part of Ireland where the people are happy for this to happen for their own selfish reasons


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:28 AM

"The EU is a good method of restraint on the worst excesses of this."    just your opinion,and speculation not fact at all, if you vote remain imo you are also giving a vote to unrestricted capitalism in the uk, as i say its a f###### awful choice. much scraremongering and speculation on both sides.
it is important for all countries to have control over their own economies,and to have their own currencies, what i think we need is less centralisation of decision making and more devolution, the eu does not offer that,
th eu has destroyed the fishing industries of ireland and the uk,it has encouraged all kinds of changes in agriculture [generally to the detriment of small farmers]and then reversed them a few years later,
it has become a talking shop for overpaid politicians, of whom we have far too many.
it has introduced a minimium wage, it has managed to prevent war in western europe[ it was useless at preventing war between serbia and croatia].
but who is to say whether at some point in the future if the eu swung to the right whether the minimium wage would be scrapped.
th eu is not working well, but will leaving make it any better?. possibly in some ways and possibly not in others.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:37 AM

Serbia Croatia War
"Often described as Europe's deadliest conflict since World War II, the conflicts have become infamous for the war crimes involved, including ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity and rape. These were the first European conflicts since World War II to be formally judged genocidal in character and many key individual participants were subsequently charged with war crimes.[7] The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was established by the UN to prosecute these crimes"      
                  Europe was unable to prevent that particular war.
and it was left to the UN who prosecuted these crimes


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM

European Common Fishing Policy
For anyone to read and agree or disagree with its aims its not too long a document

My post of 7 Jun 3:58 gives my reasons for my OPINIONS and SPECULATION
I made my decisions on principle and not on so called facts.
The media only highlights its shortcomings and not its benefits and as on Mudcat never lets the lack of relevant facts spoil a good story

I rarely trust Politicians "Facts with spin" I have worked in the facts and forecasting part of industry and politicians never tell the whole story. They rarely consider the "what if" factor, they leave that to public debate then bluster.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:07 PM

Do you deny that the fishing industries of ireland and the uk have been destroyed by EU fishing policy, take a visit to Lowestoft talk to the fishermen, take a visit to any fishing port in ireland and listen to the voices of irish fishermen, not to official propaganda find out what the fisherman have to say.
it simply is not a level playing field, Spanish fishermen regularly break the rules and for a number of reasons get away with it, but it means your quote is in fact [in practice] NONSENSE because the rules are not enforced with fairness.
SO WHEN YOU TRY AND GIVE THE IMPRESSION WITH YOUR QUOTE THAT EVERYTHING IS ROSY FOR IRISH AND UK FISHERMEN BECAUSE OF THE EU YOU ARE IN FACT MUDDYING THE WATERS AND NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.   
your EU blurb does not convince me to vote one way, any more than UKIP and their scares about immigration convince me to vote the other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM

Here is a letter you might like to read KENNY, it rather contradicts your official line.Open letter from Donal O'Driscoll

Longtime fisherman and Fishermans Representative

Dear Minister Coveney,
Following are my suggestions regarding the CFP review:
In 1972, when negotiation were being finalised for Ireland's entry into the EEC (together with Denmark, Norway and the UK), it was proposed to the Irish negotiators that each country would have equal access to the fishing grounds of all other member countries, "up to the beach" as it was termed. Irish fishing interests were extremely unhappy with this prospect and after lengthy and hard negotiations, it was agreed that countries would be allowed to maintain their limits up to 12 miles, except in the case of those countries who could claim "historic rights" and who were allowed access up to six miles of all coasts.


Ireland became a member of the European Economic Community in 1973.

When we eventually joined, Ireland contributed 14% of the total European waters. In spite of this, we were only allocated between 4% and 5% of the demersal stocks and around 12% of the pelagic stocks. This was the first great anomaly, the reason for which was only recently clarified by the EU Commission for Fisheries. The reason that was given was that Ireland's fishing fleet was not sufficiently developed at the time to justify a greater portion of the available stocks. This has clearly not been the case for a long time but there has never been an attempt to alter this status quo, despite the fact that the Commission also said that these decisions were never intended to be written in stone and were thus presumably open to renegotiation at some future point.

Moving forward to the mid 1980s, when quota were introduced for the first time, Irish fishing interests accepted quotas in the hope that after a certain number of years, stocks would be sufficiently increased to allow boats to return to a non-quota fishing basis. At that time, Spain was not yet a member of the EU, yet they had been given permission to fish within the "Irish Conservation Box", presumably at the point when this box was created. At some point before Spain joined the EU, Spanish fishing companies started to buy up English-owned vessels, with which they then proceeded to fish up to the 12-mile limit off the Irish coast. Eventually this legal loophole grew to in excess of 100 vessels. In spite of vociferous complaints from Irish interests, the European Court decided to allow this exploitation of a glaring loophole in regulations to continue. Even after Spain joined the EU, they held onto these English registered "flagships, thereby giving them an even larger share of the fish pile than they were legally entitled to as members.


Spanish fishing vessel off the coast of Ireland.

This made a complete mockery of the quota system that had been set up in the first place and to which Ireland's fishermen were expected to adhere. The Irish waters were being fished more heavily than ever, before the quota system had been introduced! There was obviously no hope that fishing stocks would be replenished sufficiently to allow for a return to quota-free fishing, through no fault of the Irish fishermen themselves, although they are the ones who have to suffer the consequences. This all happened with the official blessing of the EU which to date seems to have not paid the slightest attention to this abuurd situation.


Fishing vessels moored in Cork Harbour in 2012.

In 2010, Ireland and all other maritime EU countries agreed to the establishment of a 200-mile limit in terms of geographical territory, making Ireland the third highest contributor of sea territory, within the EU maritime countries. This gave Ireland automatic rights, to any resources that fell within that 200-mile area. This implies that everything that swam in the seas off the Irish coast, within these limits, belonged by right to the citizens of the Irish Republic. The Irish people would surely be proud to own such a vast area of rich territory of minerals and fishing stocks. However, without consulting the Irish people the government of the time handed over our rights to these fishing stocks to Brussels. We gained nothing from this, in fact it returned us to our previous role as beggars within the European community. thereby and unwittingly granting some of our EU partners an even greater entitlement to those fish stocks.

How can Irish fishermen be expected to trust the officials who are now engaged in renegotiating a reform of the Common Fisheries Policy? The story so far has been a sad and sorry one, with Irish officialdom being completely unappreciative of the riches they are constantly giving away, coupled with a disingenuous exploitation of loopholes on the part of a few of neighbouring countries.

Following on to the proposed review of the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) the commissions published proposals regarding the introduction of Transferable Concessions (ie. quotas) posing a real danger to the Irish fishing industry. Amongst other threats, this will once again allow some of our EU partners to continue their quest to obtain more and more of available Irish fishing stocks. Transferable Concessions, (quotas) as published by the Commission are exactly what they say, "transferable". Foreign entities will thereby have the ability to buy up the already depleted Irish fish quotas thereby driving the Irish operators, both small and large out of our National Industry. In addition to the repercussions, it will be devastating for the rural coastal communities who depend so much on our local indigenous fishing industry. In 2010 the seafood sector contributed over 700 million to the Irish economy. The Irish indigenous fishing industry must NOW FIGHT to maintain and improve that contribution and ensure that same is not the subject of 'transfer' to some of our EU partners.

The CFP review must now go back to the 'drawing board' regarding the distribution and management of all Irish fishing stocks. This should involve all EU partners agreeing national fishery entitlements taking account of the respective new national geographical maritime areas. Thereafter each country should be obliged to manage their own national fish resource in line with accepted conservation policies.

Donal O'Driscoll
Longtime fisherman and Fisherman's Representative


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:46 PM

Thanks GSS
Donal's points are very well presented
The policy was obviously not implemented in the spirit it was conceived throughout the EU. The Spanish and Danish have obviously got the "ear" of someone early on ,and the penalty for not operating the policy is insufficient to deter if it exists at all.
The Spanish government is obviously in cahoots with someone in the commission (an opinion) and is in control of how it is implemented / ignored
As you may have noticed getting large organisations to acknowledge wrongdoing is an uphill struggle
Further info
Debating EUROPE - Fishing Policy


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:53 PM

Dick
It really is swings and roundabouts
It's true the fishing policy is crap - so are a few other things.
On the other hand, there are several hundred youngsters from this town at present working in Europe who, should Ireland leave, stand a fair chance of being sent home without a job.
Leaving is going to solve either the fishermen's problems nor the youngsters.
It's an issue you can't decide on the basis of single sets of circumstances - you have to take the whole picture into consideration.
What doesn't sort your part of Ireland sorts out one of our major problems here - jobs for school levers.
Scales and balances all the time.
Probably why your locals feel differently than our locals
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

"On the other hand, there are several hundred youngsters from this town at present working in Europe who, should Ireland leave, stand a fair chance of being sent home without a job."

I had no idea at all that Ireland was thinking of leaving the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:03 AM

"I had no idea at all that Ireland was thinking of leaving the EU."
It isn't, it couldn't afford to, but there are always the eejits who can't think beyond their own townlands.
There was a long discussion on the radio yesterday on the consequences to Ireland if Britain leaves - pretty gloomy, certainly as far as relations with The Six Counties goes - Quantum Leap backwards or what?
One TD in favour made it quite clear that she didn't have an answer to a single question of what would happen but still went on to 'defend' her case - politicians the world over, eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:00 PM

Then why mention it Jim?

Hundreds of youngsters from your town eh? All got on their bikes a-la Norman Tebbit and this is in the Republic of Ireland, where everything has been splendid since the departure of the British and even better after entry into the EEC, massive hand-outs, banks lending to people they should not have, EU driven austerity and bail-outs from the UK.

First of all Dev wrecks Ireland's economy with his ideological trade war with Great Britain and then the EU comes along and stiffs you again. Oddly enough the UK has never said No to the EU, whereas the Republic of Ireland has done so on two occasions, on each occasion the EU came back to get the answer they wanted in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 03:08 PM

You might get some the other way Jim. I had my first EU incomer clients who have decided to not go ahead with a remortgage until after the referendum. The guy has been working in the NHS here since the early 90s and has a family who see themselves as British. He wants to keep working for the NHS for pension reasons but is seriously thinking about moving to perhaps Donegal and try to work in Northern Ireland. They were worried that they'd lose residency rights here. I said that such a move for existing residents would be very unlikely and he agreed but then said that he felt a certain percentage of the population just didn't want him here now so doesn't feel comfortable - especially if the vote is for Leave


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:05 PM

Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia were not members of the European Community (European Union if you prefer) at the time of their wars (1991 to 2001). So, to somehow suggest that the failure to prevent their wars was a failure of the EC is simply untrue. It was a failure of the whole continent of Europe, of which the EC is just a part.

It is absolutely correct that, since the initial formation of the structure of nations we now call The European Community, there has been no war between any of its member-states during the period of their membership.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:52 PM

That's right. The EU didn't come out covered in glory exactly after the Yugoslav wars, but what you say is spot on.

Donald Tusk, using language I don't particularly favour, voiced an opinion today that a British exit would be catastrophic for the EU. I think that this is a dangerous situation that he is pointing to. Suppose the EU collapses after we leave. We could find a Europe in economic turmoil comprising disparate states with huge inequalities between rich and poor countries with their no longer enjoying mutual interests or a desire to prevent the weakest from becoming basket cases. Wouldn't do much for our trade either. We would quickly be back to pre-WW1 and pre-WW2 status in many regards. There could easily be a threat to democracy in a number of the poorest nations. Only twenty years separated those two wars. The Common Market was set up just twelve years after WW2 and the explicit aim of its early-fifties forerunner was to integrate nations in order to prevent future wars. Little Englanders love to tell us that no, it wasn't economic interdependence, mutual interest and an insistence on human rights and democracy among (eventually) 28 states that achieved this, but the iron fist of Nato (which, in effect, means giving up a big chunk of our sovereignty to the US and which had us involved in a 45-year Cold War with an insane arms race that saw us nervously watching apocalyptic drama-documentaries on the telly about nuclear Armageddon - they forget that bit).

So I'm in. My only grandchild is eight months old and I don't want him living in an economically unstable, warring future Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 03:08 AM

You don't want him living in an economically unstable Europe.

I've got news for you "Rip Van Winkle"......he already is!

Join the real world.....vote out.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 03:08 AM

Suppose the EU collapses after we leave.

Why should it? If we are going to base the argument on a "What If" premise then I think there are far worse what if scenarios than that to scare us with. Besides I thought those campaigning for us to remain believed that the EU is all things to all men, perfectly wonderful and we would be fools to leave.

We could find a Europe in economic turmoil comprising disparate states with huge inequalities between rich and poor countries with their no longer enjoying mutual interests or a desire to prevent the weakest from becoming basket cases.

"We could find!!!! you have got to be joking. I think we are there already ask the Greeks. Only the interests of two countries have ever been considered by the EU, those of France and those of Germany.

Wouldn't do much for our trade either.

Surprisingly enough I do not believe that that is true any longer.

We would quickly be back to pre-WW1 and pre-WW2 status in many regards.

I do not believe that there is any way that the British Empire would be recreated, although we would be free to trade with whoever we wished, we did so before.

There could easily be a threat to democracy in a number of the poorest nations.

Always has been and guess what? Nothing we could do to stop it due to the number of anti-war protesters who vehemently object to any sort of foreign intervention.

The Common Market was set up just twelve years after WW2 and the explicit aim of its early-fifties forerunner was to integrate nations in order to prevent future wars.

Correct but add the final bit ....to prevent future wars between France and Germany

Despite the ludicrous award of a Nobel Peace Prize the EU has not ensured peace in Europe it was totally powerless to influence what happened in Yugoslavia. The EU has not faced down any threat, it is unable to. The only major threat to western democracy since 1945 has been posed by Russia (Ask some of our newer eastern European EU members) and the only thing that has held Russia in check has been NATO and the existence of nuclear deterrence.

On that subject, what big chunk of sovereignty has been surrendered to the United States of America? And how did they involve us in a 45-year "Cold War"? For there to have been an insane arms race, then there had to be at least two participants and a reason for them to be racing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM

A post replete with delusions.

First, as in Orwell 1984-mode, the threat from the USSR, a basket case of a country for decades (wanna disagree?) was exaggerated out of all proportion for decades to prop up the NATO alliance. The upshot was a miserable money-wasting, stultifying and depressing Cold War for which the US was largely responsible and we couldn't do a bloody thing about it. We were kept firmly onside by being told that was two minutes to nuclear midnight for decades. Insane. What a way to live. And your hero Maggie even let the yanks plant their nukes in this country, which, had your big Russian bear threat been true, would have seen us cowering in the bunkers for a decade. Wonder why it didn't. Perhaps because those pesky Ruskies were too weak to do anything about it? One up for sovereignty, eh, Teribus? We do what the yanks tell us and you know it. Harold Wilson, to his credit, stood up to them over Vietnam and look where it got him (I don't credit him with much else, before you start).

I love the way you share blame for the Cold War so equitably. Would you care to share the blame for, lessee, WW2, the Falklands War or Saddam's invasion of Kuwait just as equitably? Tell us who you think saved us from Armageddon in 1962. How distance lends enchantment to the view...

Far worse scenarios than the EU melting down? What, you mean far worse than the prospect of coups in several countries, the prospect of more Balkan wars (unless you think they all now love each other to bits), a massive immigrant/refugee crisis? Or do you think such a collapse will take place at a time of great calm and economic prosperity, all nice and orderly? It would be the worst thing to happen to this planet since the world wars. Far worse things my arse.

I said "in many regards." The return of the good old empire was not one of the regards I had in mind. Stop making things up.

Wars between France and Germany? When was the last war between France and Germany that we didn't have to be in on, then?

Since when have anti-war protesters ever stopped a war?

Yugoslavia was not in the EU when it broke up. The countries there are in the EU now and are democracies. The ethnic tensions are still there but the wars have gone. To what do you ascribe that? Godly intervention??


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:53 AM

"Then why mention it Jim?"
Because there is always the threat - I said that - keep up.
"where everything has been splendid since the departure of the British and even better after entry into the EEC
Never miss a chance to take a pop at the Irish - it seems to be an obsession; shouldn't you seek help for it?
Ireland have never been "splendid" as you dishonestly claim I have said - far from it (honesty doesn't seem to feature strongly on your personal Richter Scale) - but independence from Britain immediately made it a better place than it had under British room and provided it with an opportunity to improve or at least make its own mistakes -
The legacy of permanent immigration that was bequeathed by Britain made membership of the E.U. an essential for Ireland and the Irish have had the nouse to take advantage of the opportunities offered rather than following the British example of hastily building Little Englander walls to keep Johnny Foreigner out.
The kids here have somewhere to go when the politicians let them down, as they inevitably do.
British kids have only the increasing dole queues before them as British Industry (what there is of it) continues to go belly-up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:16 AM

Talking of delusions Steve Shaw - 14 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM

"First, as in Orwell 1984-mode, the threat from the USSR, a basket case of a country for decades (wanna disagree?) was exaggerated out of all proportion for decades to prop up the NATO alliance.

Isn't 20x20 hindsight a marvellous thing Shaw. Of course things like:

The Berlin Airlift
The East German Uprising 1953
The suppression of the Hungarian Revolution
The 1961 Berlin Crisis
The Cuban Missile Crisis
The crushing of the Prague Spring

Never really happened, the vast expansion of the Soviet Navy, the incursion flights into NATO Airspace, the massive army Exercises along NATO's borders and the Soviet Navy's Spring and Autumn Wars - all undertaken by a basket case of a country, a country that held most of eastern Europe in chains.

The USSR did not maintain an Army of almost 3 million men at immediate readiness. Far behind the US and the west in terms of technology the Soviets bankrupted themselves about five times trying to catch and overtake the Americans. Having lived through those times and served in the Navy during them, the threat was real enough, but NATO ensured that the defence posture of the West was always strong enough to dissuade the USSR from ever trying it on.

Through the course of the Cold War things got progressively better for those living in the West, while in the USSR and the Warsaw Pact countries things either got worse or just stagnated, as their supposed "workers paradises" fell apart.

In the nuclear arms race the Soviets always had more tactical warheads and missiles that threatened Europe, today they have more strategic warheads than the Americans and as you mentioned in the past the USSR did threatened to use them - they didn't because of NATO's second and third strike capability against which the Soviets had no defence - so MAD and nuclear deterrence worked. During the Cuban Missile Crisis the Soviets had no hope at all of getting any more missiles into Cuba as they did not control the Atlantic - NATO did.

So no surrender of sovereignty Shaw, we helped allies as we should and they helped us.

Sharing blame for the Second World War? Depends when you personally think it started. But if you are talking about Europe then it was a German war of aggression that they deliberately sought and instigated.

The Falklands Conflict, we never actually went to war for some very sound reasons, was triggered by an act of aggression on the part of the Military junta governing Argentina at the time. They decided to invade territory that belonged to us and we in return kicked them out of it over the course of 14 weeks.

Saddam Hussein's invasion and occupation of Kuwait was a simple straightforward attempted robbery on a massive scale. It was illegal and it was condemned by the United Nations and the United Nations Security Council.

I can tell you what would happen if the EU collapsed Shaw - every member state overnight would save themselves a whale of a lot of money, and they'd all rid themselves of a totally useless political organisation that has never ever really done anything. Do you honestly think that trade between countries would cease overnight? Don't be ridiculous. As far as Great Britain goes we buy more from them that they do from us, so if we leave they feel the pain, Great Britain is the second largest net contributor to the EU's coffers after Germany, if we leave Germany and the remaining member states would have to take up that slack, while we in the UK if we keep everything exactly the same as it is at present are immediately £24 billion better off. Keep VAT by all means but we are free to alter the rates as we please on whatever we please.

Oddly enough according to Margaret MacMillan Europe went from peace "at a time of great calm and economic prosperity" to a war of industrial proportions in the course of one month. Should the United Kingdom decide to quit the EU it does not automatically follow that the EU will collapse - it would however have to take stock and re-evaluate certain things and that would not be too bad a thing for it to do.

The massive emigration/refugee crisis"?? Blame Merkel and all those who opposed intervention in Libya and in Syria.

Wars between France and Germany? When was the last war between France and Germany that we didn't have to be in on, then?

Irrelevant Shaw - the reason the Steel and Coal Treaty and the Common Market was set up was to prevent any future war in Europe between France and Germany - fact read up on the history of it.

Since when have anti-war protesters ever stopped a war?

Libya and Syria.


Yugoslavia was not in the EU when it broke up.

Irrelevant, what you had was a full scale war and holocaust going on right on the doorstep of the EU and they did nothing about it, they could do nothing about it ( Germany even threatened unilateral military action, they thought the situation so grave). It took Bill Clinton and the military side of the NATO Alliance to act and put a stop to it - I specify the military side of the NATO Alliance as that specifically excluded France from the decision making process - had they been involved then nothing would have been done at all.

The countries there are in the EU now and are democracies. The ethnic tensions are still there but the wars have gone. To what do you ascribe that? Godly intervention??

Nope, financial necessity, they looked towards their western horizons and spotted the EU gravy train and decided to superficially sink their differences and grab some of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:42 PM

Interesting that all the recently demobbed( within 5 years)service personnel from all the services that I know local are "remainers"
Maybe their life in the modern service has changed attitudes.
Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:20 PM

"Do you honestly think that trade between countries would cease overnight? Don't be ridiculous."

No I don't honestly think that trade between countries would cease overnight, which is why I didn't say that trade between countries would cease overnight, so I would be obliged if you didn't ask me not to be ridiculous for saying something I didn't say.😂 Teribus, this is a perfect illustration of why trying to debate with you is a waste of time. On this occasion, let's just invite readers of this thread, if they're mad enough, to read my post and your response and leave it at that. I officially become an OAP tomorrow, so if you annoy me in the next 24 hours I may well respond when I'm a bit pissed, which is when I'm at my best with the bit between what remains of my teeth, so watch it, sonny. 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 10:53 PM

The impact of EU fisheries law on the Irish fishing industry wouldn't be significantly reduced by the UK leaving the EU. And there is no realistic possibility of Ireland leaving. So it's an irrelevance in that context.
......

One thing that's been skated over in all this is that the stuff about immigration as a reason to get out of the EU is basically a con.

If you examine it, there is no realistic possibility that Brexit would do anything to change things significantly. Norway and Switzerland have both been required to accept the free movement of workers, in order to get access to the free trade with the EU that they need. The same would apply to the UK, which also needs that access.

After the fuss has died down, the same flow of workers will be taking place, whatever the talk about "entry control".


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:54 AM

Economic turmoil Shaw? What economic turmoil if you don't think that trade will be curtailed?

"I officially become an OAP tomorrow, so if you annoy me in the next 24 hours I may well respond when I'm a bit pissed, which is when I'm at my best with the bit between what remains of my teeth, so watch it, sonny"

Reasoned argument being beyond you, so you resort to threats of drunken threats - good heavens what would the mild mannered Jim Carroll say? He has very definite views on manners and breeding, pity that he himself doesn't live up to them but that is neither here nor there. But in issuing threats you certainly do have some brass-neck giving others advice on how to behave.

All that aside I wish you a happy birthday and many returns of the day, I hope and trust that you have a long, enjoyable and happy retirement.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:21 AM

"Reasoned argument being beyond you,"
You have no intention of stopping this - have you.
Haven't you done enough damage to this forum already?
Maybe it's time somebody reported your behaviour and put a stop to it!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:22 AM

Drunken threat? It was a joke! Stop trying to do a Keith on me!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

Steve -- Happy Birthday.

& Welcome to the ranks of the officially aged, young man.


≈Michael≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

Jim Carroll - 15 Jun 16 - 03:21 AM

But Jom I thought you said that had been done already, or was your previous post just more Carroll "Made-Up-Shit", perfect example of it mind you.

Of course it was a joke Mr Shaw, couldn't resist yankin' the chain - Have a great day.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

Happy Birthday Steve with A European greeting, glücklich Geburtstag, Joyeux anniversaire, •Breithlá Sona etc


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:56 AM

"But Jom I thought you said that had been done already"
Only Bobad, and haven't got round to that -decided to wait till his next outburst
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 08:32 AM

A German politics/football cartoon of today:

A photo of chancelor Merkel and minister for economy Gabriel with the following (fake) captions.

Gabriel asks: "Do you think the Brexit will come?"
Merkel (beaming): "At the latest in the quarterfinals"

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 09:24 PM

Though there is no United Kingdom team in the European Cup, I pedantically point out.

Private Eye made the same joke on the front cover of current issue .


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

Delighted to see Neil Garage and Bob the Gob buccaneering on the high seas yesterday. The whole thing is beyond parody, I bet Mr. Cameron is really regretting instigating this whole referendum business, no-one's coming out of it well.

The Tories are imploding in the most spectacular way, Labour has show itself to be utterly lacking in it's ability to promote whatever viewpoint it stands for, and is paying the price for abandoning it's core voters who have all headed off to the right to join the charlatan Farage and his travelling freakshow.

You really have to be impressed. Love the Eye cover!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 09:23 AM

The Labour position is a pretty straightforward and sensible one actually, and it has repeatedly been articulately stated. It is that the EU is far from perfect, badly needs reforms, but not the one Cameron was trying ineffectively to bully other countries to accept.

The only way to do anything effective towards bringing the needed changes about- defending and building on the Social Chapter, and democratising decision making - is to stick in and work together with friends in other countries.

But of course the media prefer to focus on the bloodletting between factions in the Tory party. Stuff from Labour is just not covered. It doesn't fit in with the selected plot, which is a squabble between people on one side saying the EU is the work of the devil, and those who say it's a resounnding success.

As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it. Those who vote for leaving on the basis of promises about that are going to be bitterly let down. They will find they have been victim of a con trick.

The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:09 AM

"The Labour position is ....... that the EU is far from perfect, badly needs reforms ....... The only way to do anything effective towards bringing the needed changes about ......... is to stick in and work together with friends in other countries."

All well and good, but the track record of the EU has shown that to be EU-speak that just kicks the can another mile, or should that be 1.6 kilometres, down the road. The EU will never reform itself it has had more than enough time and way too many chances to do so already. The EU Commissioners (An unelected body) will never relinquish their power, just as they will never actually produce an audited record of their finances. None of the member states have ever been able to change the direction of this juggernaut by working from inside and the plain truth is that we voted to join on the false promise that we were joining a trade block, not some corrupt political scheme to create a United States of Europe.

By the way when it comes down to the "nitty-gritty" this whole referendum actually is:

"a squabble between people on one side saying the EU is the work of the devil, and those who say it's a resounding success."

IN or OUT is what is being decided, not the best way of bringing about change to the EU.

I can remember Tony Blair toddling over to Brussels to barter away a large chunk of the UK rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher and coming back with a reduced UK rebate on the premise that the Common Agricultural Policy was to be revised and gradually dispensed with altogether. We immediately got the reduced rebate while the CAP remained in place and intact exactly as it had been before - because it didn't sit well with France.

As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it.

Do you honestly mean to tell us that being able to say No and being able to turn people round on landing and returning them will not reduce immigration? Tell me Kevin which entity has the longer border the EU or the UK? If we are in the EU anyone making across the borders into the EU and are accepted as asylum seekers in the EU can then quite legally come to the UK. If we are not in the EU then that cannot happen. Same goes for economic migrants, etc. If we are not in the EU we get to say who comes in and we get to say who can stay.

"The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere."

Going that route you will always never have enough and the standard of services will regress and diminish. To reduce the factors you speak of means exporting jobs and pouring money into a massive multi-nation building programme in the countries that the USSR destroyed between 1945 and 1991 on the sole condition that their populations stay put - no freedom of movement in the Warsaw Pact.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:38 AM

"As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it. Those who vote for leaving on the basis of promises about that are going to be bitterly let down. They will find they have been victim of a con trick.

The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere."


You've nailed it, McG!

I'm of the opinion that Labour are deliberately keeping a low profile in the hope (expectation?) that the Tory Party will commit hara-kiri during the debate - at the moment that looks a distinct possibility. Please, please, pretty please....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 11:08 AM

Both Norway and Switzerland,, though not in the EU, have had to agree to the same policy on freedom of access and employment
for other EU citizens as other countries. That is required as a condition of access to free trade with the EU.

There is no realistic possibility that the UK - or whatever is left of it when the dust settles and Scotland has probably gone - will be treated differently. That would require every single other country agreeing to that, and they won't. And free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK. We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries..

And of course, once outside the EU the UK has no say whatsoever about any future changes, such as Turkey getting membership with free movement.

The Brexit line is to promise immigration control, and use that to win votes, and it could well be succesful.. But that is based on assumptions about how the EU will act which just don't add up. The immigration promises are just a house of cards. When the people who were taken in wake up and face the truth, the consequences could be frightening.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:16 PM

Labour MP campaigning to stay in shot dead and her companion stabbed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

I don't think she was killed whilst actively campaigning for Remain though! She was or had just been to her surgery meeting constituents. I've seen the FB posts suggesting that the murderer shouted "Britain First" when he killed her which would suggest he was a right wing extremist and Leave supporter. However certainly though it may be why she was killed - that hasn't actually been officially confirmed yet!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:30 PM

My condolences to all rational minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

Both Norway and Switzerland,, though not in the EU, have had to agree to the same policy on freedom of access and employment
for other EU citizens as other countries. That is required as a condition of access to free trade with the EU.


I take it that you have experience in working in one or other of the two Kevin?

I most certainly would like to see someone, EU citizen, or not, just bimble into either looking for work, residence, or benefits.

In Norway you have to have the job before you travel, and to get the job your employer has to have proved that no Norwegian can do it before you are offered it.

The Norwegian parliament has to approve all new legislation handed down from Brussels by the EU which has "significant new obligations". From the 23,000 EU laws currently in force, the EEA has incorporated around 5,000 (in force) meaning that Norway is subject to roughly 21% of EU laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

"There is no realistic possibility that the UK - or whatever is left of it when the dust settles and Scotland has probably gone - will be treated differently. That would require every single other country agreeing to that, and they won't. And free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK. We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries."

The UK is the EU's second largest net contributor after Germany
The UK makes up 12.4% of the population of the EU
Within the EU the UK is Germany's largest customer

The above constitutes negotiating leverage with the country that is the economic driving force of the EU - Germany - they are not renowned for cutting off their noses to spite their face. When push comes to shove pragmatism is more their style.

Within the EU over 80% of Scotland's trade is within the UK.
The UK is a member of the EU, Scotland is not, should the UK decide to leave the EU, then Scotland would have to apply to join - and every single other member would have to agree to that - Off the top of my head I can think of six who would block Scotland for reasons centred about what those countries see as their own best interests.

"free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK"

As we buy more from them than they do from us, and considering the economic state of the EU and the Eurozone, I would suggest that the boot is very much on the other foot.

"We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries UK."

Maybe, maybe not, but it does mean that we can set up bilateral trade with other countries that we are at present unable to do due to our EU membership.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 04:07 PM

If I recall correctly Norway's deal with the EU was based on a kind of trial membership. They accepted free movement and other stuff because that was what they would have to accept if they went for full membership. As it turned out they decided not to accept full membership and they may, one day, decide to re-negotiate their deal.

Don't forget folks you now have just one week left to escape the madness of a United States Of Europe. David's and George's careers are in your hands. Vote leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM

"As we buy more from them than they do from us, "
Probably because we haven't got anything to sell any more after the Tories closed down all our industries, d'y' think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:55 PM

Really? Shooting politicians, what is this, America? I thought y'all were more civilized than that...

A sad day, indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:00 PM

Even if Germany did decide that it was so important to fix up trade with the UK that it was worth the serious costs (it would involve serious risks of further break-up of the EU), it is hard to envisage unamimous agreement by 26 other countries.

It's a gamble, at pretty long odds. If we get out we'll find if I'm right.

Where a local candidate is available and is as capable of doing a job as an immigrant they will in most cases have significant advantages for an employer they should get the job. Where it's a matter of employers employing immigrants because they will work for less, and put up with terrible conditions, that is a scandal that needs to be stamped out. A fair wage and decent working conditions, for any job, needs to be legally required ane enforced which will attract local applicants, and which will have been reached through negotiations with workers and unions.

And that is something which should be added to the Social Charter of the EU. To get that would involve a combined push by allies across Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:35 PM

Well we're in bits here. The murdered MP's mum is a friend of my family member, who saw Jo grow up through her childhood and teen years. She was feisty, passionate and committed and she was in politics for the good she could do, never for herself. Christ, if there's one day I wish I could rewind and start again. Senseless, incomprehensible.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:14 AM

Sincerest condolences to you and all family and friends, sad day indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:48 AM

If Germany feels it advantageous for Germany to make some sort of deal with the UK then Germany will use its economic, financial and political clout within the EU to get exactly what it wants - it always has in the past.

In your posts where you refer to countries such as Norway and Switzerland you talk about them and free movement of labour and access as though they were like the UK, France, Netherlands or Germany - simply put, they are not, they apply their own interpretation of what they see as being free access and it is a great deal more restrictive than you think.

You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you had worked in either of these countries Kevin and were talking from experience. I have not worked in Switzerland but have experience in having worked in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, France and the Netherlands and can tell you from practical experience the differences of working in each.

Where is it a matter of employers employing immigrants because they will work for less, and put up with terrible conditions? As far as the "Remain" campaign tell us the UK needs immigrants because our own population are not prepared to do certain jobs and we are daft enough to support our selective unemployed on benefits until something more acceptable to them comes along, there are a few countries on that list above where after a limited time that just would not be allowed to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM

So sorry Steve. Such an incomprehensible waste of a wonderful human life. I was very upset when I heard, especially for her husband and two children.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM

" support our selective unemployed on benefits "
Tory crap
Unemployment benefit
National minimum wage
Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.
Sure, we can all leave our families, "get on our bikes" maybe, a was once suggested - down to where the work is to find that the cost of accommodation is so prohibitive that it is impossible to find anywhere to live - try looking at London prices.
Having dismantled British industry, this mob now seek to blame the victims of that policy for the consequences.
High unemployment figures are one of the direct cause of driving down wage levels - I worked out from conversations I had in Liverpool recently that what some self-employed electricians were charging to rewire a house is slightly above the cost of buying the materials - crazy!!
Of course employers are hiring the cheapest where they are able - they would be mad not to - I've been told often enough that business is not based on sentiment.
Rather strange watching pro- Brexits being interviewed and announcing passionately that they want their "independence" back.
What independence?
In the present situation, the only independence Britain can aspire to today is the right to choose who to be dependent on.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:11 AM

" support our selective unemployed on benefits "
Tory crap
Unemployment benefit
National minimum wage
Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.
Sure, we can all leave our families, "get on our bikes" maybe, a was once suggested - down to where the work is to find that the cost of accommodation is so prohibitive that it is impossible to find anywhere to live - try looking at London prices.
Having dismantled British industry, this mob now seek to blame the victims of that policy for the consequences.
High unemployment figures are one of the direct cause of driving down wage levels - I worked out from conversations I had in Liverpool recently that what some self-employed electricians were charging to rewire a house is slightly above the cost of buying the materials - crazy!!
Of course employers are hiring the cheapest where they are able - they would be mad not to - I've been told often enough that business is not based on sentiment.
Rather strange watching pro- Brexits being interviewed and announcing passionately that they want their "independence" back.
What independence?
In the present situation, the only independence Britain can aspire to today is the right to choose who to be dependent on.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM

Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.

And that is why our welfare costs will continue to rise and yet will always lag and never be enough.

The person who follows that advice above will always find themselves marked down when applying for any job when compared to someone who ignored it, as prospective employers will always look at working track record and someone who has sat on their fat arse for years because they got more on benefits and "entitlements" loses out to someone who chose to work instead - why? - demonstration of work ethic.

In the places MGOH mentioned you only get so long on benefits then you get compulsory retraining and you then have a choice take the job offered or take drastically reduced benefits.

The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU. Our unemployment figures are low compared to the EU. Our currency is depressingly strong compared to the Euro and other European Currencies. Oh dear what a terrible state we are in - hell as like.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

The campaign reached a low point yesterday with the unveiling of Farage's anti-immigration poster, which showed a huge queue, not of immigrants trying to enter the UK, as implied, but a line of refugees, mostly black, who were nowhere near a UK border. In the unveiling ceremony, Nigel is standing right in front of it. Bloody racist scumbag.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:57 AM

"And that is why our welfare costs will continue to rise and yet will always lag and never be enough."
So you are saying that we should abandon feeding our family because the Government can't get its act together - nice to know.
I paid taxes all my working life, part of which was to cover the eventuality of my becoming employed - it seems it was really for politicians duck palaces.
"Benefits are no more than insurance payouts.
Any system that is unable to provide work on a major scale is not fit for purpose.
"The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU"
The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry, under no circumstances can any dependent economy be described as "doing well".
The rising and accelerating gap between rich and poor is an indication of who is benefiting from that "doing well".
Few, if any working people choose to be out of work deliberately, just as any worker who withdraws his Labour willingly chooses to go on strike - both myths of the 'haves'.
Nice to have it in writing that we must put the interested of the bankers before that of our families though
Tories - an endless source of entertainment!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

I suppose you know that putting the interests of the State over that of the people is the classic definition of 'fascism'?
Jim Carrll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

"I suppose you know that putting the interests of the State over that of the people is the classic definition of 'fascism'?"
Jim Carroll


Tell me Jim did Lenin, Stalin and Mao know that?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

"The rising and accelerating gap between rich and poor is an indication of who is benefiting from that "doing well".

Well according to the BBC, and I see no reason for them to lie, the world economy doubled in the last quarter century. The number of those considered to be living in "poverty" halved, and the numbers of people considered to be "middle-class" doubled. These are figures and statistics they broadcast world wide and I do not believe that they were challenged.

Now let us take a look as those who are considered rich:

Top 50 in the world does not include one Briton and no member of the aristocracy.

Top 25 in the UK are largely foreign and only two members of the aristocracy appear. The rest appear to be self-made men, or are the sons of self-made men. Tell me Jim do you begrudge people the fruits of their labours? If so can you define the point at which you draw the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM

"Tell me Jim did Lenin, Stalin and Mao know that?"
You tell me - you obviously didn't, but you do now
Blood nonsense to put the interests of an avaricious and corrupt state before that of your family - what eejit though that one up?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM

If a joba wages and conditions are not good enough to attract people native to the country they are not good enough. They need to be changed so that they are seen as acceptable to local people. After all, that is what would have to happen if the immigrants who might do the jobs were not allowed.

Simpler to change the wages and conditions. Same result achieved in a way that is perfectly acceptable within EU rules.

No, I haven't worked in Norway. I would suspect that the governmments and unions in those countries will have imposed those kind of requirements on employers.
.............

The tragedy of Jo Cox's killing should cause a bit of sobering up in the increasingly nasty tone of this referendum campaign.

I can't recall anything like the announcement that thhe Tories won't be putting up a candidate in the by election to choose a successor to her as MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

"The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU. Our unemployment figures are low compared to the EU. Our currency is depressingly strong compared to the Euro and other European Currencies. Oh dear what a terrible state we are in - hell as like."

Great reasons for maintaining the status quo and remaining in the EU

Cant remember who wrote that any suggestions?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM

The out campaign has increasingly become an appeal to ignorance and fear of foreigners. A cheap-shot, easy way of pandering to prejudice. It's bloody appalling, frankly.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM

I see that both the Green Party and UKIP have said they won't be putting up candidates either in the election for Jo Cox's replacement..


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

Jim,
The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry, under no circumstances can any dependent economy be described as "doing well".
Wrong again Jim!
"Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. "
http://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:57 AM

Yep, Keith, keep reading your link: less than 10% of jobs in this country are in manufacturing, down from 25% pre-Thatcher. Only the eleventh largest manufacturer but the fifth largest economy, with productivity stubbornly flat (showing that the in-work statistics are fraudulent). You're very good at telling less than half the tale, Keith, and we always have to check every single thing you say.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve, Jim said "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry,"
That was wrong.
Do you criticise him for that wildly inaccurate and misleading statement?
No. Why not?

I quoted and quoted accurately Steve.
You did not.
Here are some more actual quotes from the same piece.

"Overall, the UK's industrial sector has increased by 1.4% a year since 1948, according to a recent report from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The ONS attributes the sustained growth to a better quality, more skilled workforce; a shift in production from low to high productivity goods; improvements in automation and ICT; increased investment in R&D, and a more integrated global economy."

"Although the contribution of manufacturing to GDP has declined on paper, many of the services provided to manufacturers which would have once been considered part of manufacturing, such as catering; cleaning; building services, security and so on, are now allocated into different areas of the economy.

However, those contributions are directly reliant on manufacturing for continued business and could actually be considered as a part of manufacturing's GDP input. As such, many are calling for the true value of manufacturing to be recognised, a move which would see the widely cited figure of 10% of GVA almost doubling to 19%."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

"Wrong again Jim!"
Course I am Keith
#"The Manufacturer" - you have to be joking.
This is a industrialists magazine based on telling you what a good job they are doing - a 'promo' - what else are they going to tell us?
It headlines the car industry - Britain's role in the Car industry is to assemble parts made elsewhere - you may call that "manufacturing" if you wish.
Same with electonics - assembling components made (often very shoddily) in some of the poorest parts of the world for some of the worst wages and under horrific conditions.
We are reminded where our textiles come from every time a death=trap of a factory falls down burying hundreds of workers who were exiting on survival rate wages.
Our manufacturing industries are gone, as are the skills that ran them.
I have worked with skilled craftsmen, boilermakers, riveters, lathe turners, mold-makers....... men who had skills that would blind you - gone.
I sent years learning to wind armatures for electric motors,from hand drills to huge generators - doubt if there are any left now.
It would be fine if the "progress" that has been made benefited us all, but, as society is rin for profit which benefits a tiny, privileged minority - result - lengthening dole queues , homelessness, a destabalised population and a massive gap between having and doing without.
The maufacturer - give us a break!
<
a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2047860/British-car-industry-Why-none.html">Cars
STEEL
Shiipping
Textiles
Slow Death of British Industry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM

Car industry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM

Jim,
This is a industrialists magazine based on telling you what a good job they are doing

It is the insider journal reporting on the actual state of manufacturing.
Here is the Financial Times in full agreement,
"Chris Williamson, chief economist at Markit, the data company that conducts surveys of manufacturing activity around the world, agreed: "We don't see [the UK] as being unusually weak in recent years." In 2014, he said, Britain was one of the best-performing nations in terms of manufacturing activity's rate of expansion, before — like the US — sliding down the rankings."

"Yet Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world. There are success stories to go with the doom and gloom, including the renaissance in Britain's automobile industry and its continued excellence in aerospace."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ff19bb16-c4fa-11e5-b3b1-7b2481276e45.html#axzz4BqzDkjQ1

Steve, we are also, as you said, the 7th biggest economy.
The difference is due to our disproportionately large economic sector.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM

Jim, your links relevant to manufacturing are years out of date.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:55 PM

"You quoted and quoted accurately and I did not," eh?

I did not quote at all. You did what the bible-bashers do when they lift bits out of scripture to prove their non-points - you took the bits that fitted your agenda. What I said was a riposte to that. Behave yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM

"Declined on paper"...

Have you ever visited a former hub of manufacturing industry? Acres of devastation. And not just heavy industry. In Harlow where there was all kinds of light industry in industrial areas it's all warehouses and warehouse stores staffed by a couple of lonely assistants on the pay desk.

Much of what is currently still called manufacturing is in fact assembly work, with the parts all manufactured in other parts of the world.

Change happens. Britain is not a manufacturing country in the sense it was, andd that's not wholly a bad thing. But the way iit has been done has been in a way that maximised the harm done to the communities dependant on the industries that have gone, and largely shrugged off the need to make sure that thhere were still real and dignified jobs for the people of those communities.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:36 PM

That's right. And at the same time as the ideological dismantling of manufacturing industry was going on, regardless of the disastrous effects on communities (in non-Tory areas), the Tories lifted almost all regulation from the banks and other financial institutions. The biggest failure of New Labour was the failure to restore that regulation. Of course, the yanks were at it too, and we do what they do, don't we, Tony Blair? Some sovereignty that we want back! We don't train enough young people in the skills we need, so we need immigration in order to get skilled workers. Oh yes, we do have an "apprenticeship scheme" which you'd better be on otherwise you can forget jobseekers. You'll be paid about half the minimum wage and there will be next to no supervision of employers who are supposed to be training these youngsters. To be fair, some take their responsibilities seriously, but to others it's cheap labour, floor sweepers and tea-makers.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

I am shocked that so many people on the left think that supporting european multi national capitalism is better than supporting non european multi national capitalism.
NEXT, let me remind you that when ireland voted against the lisbon treaty they were made to vote again, if the UK votes to leave, they will not be allowed to, they will be offered lots of concessions and they will take them and stay., if they do not they will be made to vote again, the reason will be in the interests of democracy[ [or the very wealthy]the majority was not great enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:02 PM

Steve,
I did not quote at all.

How could you? It all substantiated my post!

you took the bits that fitted your agenda.

Completely untrue!
The whole piece was up-beat and my brief quote was entirely representative.
Your accusation was false.

Also this,
You're very good at telling less than half the tale, Keith, and we always have to check every single thing you say.

I keep asking for examples of misleading quotes but you never produce any because you can't.
False personal attacks because you can not challenge what I actually say.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

"Jim, your links relevant to manufacturing are years out of date."
Get stuffed Keith - when those industries die they diew - when the jobs are gone they're gone.
My links range from 1999 to 2016 across the board
The earliest is Textiles (1999) are you seriously suggesting that a new textile industry has miraculously emerged from the ashes phoenix-like?
Of all the industries, we know that our clothing comes almost exclusively from abroad.
Steel - 2016 the rest 2013 and 2011
It was announced ten years ago that our shipping industry had passed the point of no return
Are we all of a sudden producing car components instead of assembling them?
Not only do the industries die, but the jobs, the skills, the experience, the knowledge - and the loyalty that went into those industries dies with them - forever - you're quite likely to find a skilled worker, or administrator from these former industries serving behind a till in Sainsburys.
Our industries have been killed of for profit - not for the well-being of us all, but to make the wealthy few more wealthy
I couldn't open your last link by the way, not a subscriber to the Fanancial Times, but teh heading I could access told it as it is UK manufacturing retains bright spots despite overall gloom
Bright SPOTs indicate measles, not healthy industry -eexactly what has changed recently to show we are on a roll industial-wise.
It is predicted that we are probably heading for another recession as the economy is throwing its lot in with property again - that caused the last crash.
Why do you do this?
You defend and excuse everything that's shitty, wrong, evil, unfair and unjust in this world on principle - even to the point of defending mass-murder and State Terrorism.
What kind of person does that?
You are not inteseted in facts - you are only interested in proving taht you are right and everybody else is wrong.
And you call me obsessive.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

Jim, access is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions.

You said, "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry,"

The FT states,
" "We don't see [the UK] as being unusually weak in recent years." In 2014, he said, Britain was one of the best-performing nations in terms of manufacturing activity's rate of expansion,"

and,
"Yet Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world."

So, your statement is proved wrong.
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:16 PM

This is an FT article on the same subject
If anyone who has read the whole article agrees that the cherry picking and assessment in the post of 2:26 is any way reflected in the article id be very surprised

Bright Spots


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:31 PM

I love the variety of posts herein to date. As a very young American I recall a family visit to Great Britain in 1969. It was one of the last years of Pounds Shillings and Farthings and Sixpences. Luckily I was good at math. I passed through London two years later and noticed that a New Penny was worth 2.4 pence but many prices were the same, an automatic 140% price boost.
The other thing I recall, though without any deep understanding, was there was a lot of talk about a U.S.E. United States of Europe. The average adult of the 60s had ready memories of WWII and solid perceptions of the Soviet Threat.

It's not my vote, but I've often thought over the unfairness and organized imbecility and prejudices latent in Congress, The United Nations, Brussels, and the old saying comes back to me:

"Yes the game is rigged. But it's the only game in town."

So I like Richard Bridge's post of 09 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM with Tobias Kliem's arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:50 PM

"ccess is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions."
Not interested
What you quoted was expansionism based on decades of shrinkage - a statement relative to an already terminally sick industrial base. sick industry
I asked
Do we suddenly have a textile industry again - or a steel industry, or a shipping industry, - have the mines suddenly reopened again - are we suddenly manufacturing components or car parts instead of just fitting them together?
If we have a healthy industry, just what does it comprise?
What do we manufacture
The world is now in permanent recession - who are we better than?
We have no industries - we have permanent mass unemployment, the North of England is an unemployment black-spot since Maggie bulldozed it flat
Workers are no longer spinners, or weavers or miners or shipbuilders, or electricians or plumbers... or whatever we used to be - we are, by law, merely workers who are forced by Governmet edict to take whatever job we are offered whhether is suits our health, out family life, or financial situation or our personal preferences.
If I needed a job and could not find one I am trained for, I would be forced to stand at the Argos counter passing parcels to customers, or stacking shelves at Sainsburys or sweeping the streets - that is how things stand now if I am to draw on an insurance policy I paid into all of my working life.
Can't remember who invented the phrase "wage slave", but that is what all British people are now - obliged by law to accept any job w are offered.
"So, your statement is proved wrong."
And that sums up perfectly why you are what you are and not worth bothering with. It's not about exchanging ides, it's about winning
I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson over the last few months but no here we are again.
Just go away Keith - you foul up every thread you touch
Sorry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM

"ccess is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions."
Not interested
What you quoted was expansionism based on decades of shrinkage - a statement relative to an already terminally sick industrial base. sick industry
I asked
Do we suddenly have a textile industry again - or a steel industry, or a shipping industry, - have the mines suddenly reopened again - are we suddenly manufacturing components or car parts instead of just fitting them together?
If we have a healthy industry, just what does it comprise?
What do we manufacture
The world is now in permanent recession - who are we better than and how well are they doing?
We have no industries - we have permanent mass unemployment, the North of England is an unemployment black-spot since Maggie bulldozed it flat
Workers are no longer spinners, or weavers or miners or shipbuilders, or electricians or plumbers... or whatever we used to be - we are, by law, merely workers who are forced by Governmet edict to take whatever job we are offered whhether is suits our health, out family life, or financial situation or our personal preferences.
If I needed a job and could not find one I am trained for, I would be forced to stand at the Argos counter passing parcels to customers, or stacking shelves at Sainsburys or sweeping the streets - that is how things stand now if I am to draw on an insurance policy I paid into all of my working life.
Can't remember who invented the phrase "wage slave", but that is what all British people are now - obliged by law to accept any job w are offered.
"So, your statement is proved wrong."
And that sums up perfectly why you are what you are and not worth bothering with. It's not about exchanging ides, it's about winning
I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson over the last few months but no here we are again.
Just go away Keith - you foul up every thread you touch
Sorry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:32 PM

Paying £250 per ton for coal when our competitors were paying around £8 per ton made our electricity rather expensive for our heavy industries. In the early days we were quite good at nuclear power but that got ditched as we had to have inefficient, polluting, coal fired power stations didn't we.

We made steel that nobody wanted as buyers could get perfectly suitable steel cheaper elsewhere. Quite good at high grade specialist materials though - only trouble with that is that there is no mass market for it.

The mass market British car industry compelled to use steel produced by British Steel that had been stockpiled for ages and pay the sky-high price for electricity managed to build cars that you could hear rusting and corroding away at fifty paces that nobody wanted, the Morris Marina; the Austin Allegro; the Hillman Imp; the Avenger - the list of poor quality mediocre products is endless. Quite good at high end luxury cars though - unfortunately no mass market for those either.

Shipping? Have a look at the size of the ships required by the world's customers - nowhere in the UK to build them plus pay the inflated costs for British steel and British power.

Textiles? Unit labour costs far too high in the UK, manufacturing costs too high in the UK. No wonder manufacturing moved abroad. But again the high-end top quality stuff we still do fairly well - but how many people are prepared to pay £1,600 for a scarf.

Then right across the board you had management that was hamstrung and militant and irresponsible trades unions more focused on their political ambitions than in looking after their members and the industries they were involved in.

Things really went ever so well for Britain, the British people and British Industry in the 1970s, we just didn't know what to do with all the money our heavy industries were making - well at least some on this forum believe that fairy tale, others know the truth, which explains why in 1979 we had a General Election, changed the Government and rang the changes that needed to be made before the country was totally ruined.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 PM

Am I allowed to be flippant for just a sec? Your mention of Morris Marinas reminded me of a day in around 1980 when my next-door neighbour in Loughton, where we lived at the time (he was called Keith, as it happens), had proudly taken delivery of his brand-new firm's car, a Morris Marina. As we stood there billing and cooing over the shiny beast that had just 25 miles on the clock, my cursory inspection revealed rust in most of the seams. I didn't have the heart to deflate him, though over the next two years I watched that car turn into a rusty bucket. He didn't keep it for long!

Anyone remember Maggie Thatcher doing the Great British big sell for the then brand-new Austin Maestro? I think the newsclip had her getting into one outside Number Ten. I had one of those for eighteen miserable months. It was the worst car to drive in Christendom (I could write a book), and, no matter how carefully you drove the bugger, 26 to the gallon was as good as it got. Amazing when you consider how light it was, what with all that rust dropping off it!

Back to grimness now, chaps...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:48 PM

Maybe for once we could treat the politicians as role models, and calm down and give the campaign arguments a rest for a day or so, especially the hostile stuff, as an expression of respect for Jo Cox, who seems to have been a pretty decent person, and the kind of MP we'd all like to have.

It seems pretty likely that, whatever other things in the killer's history might have contributed to his actions, what actually triggered this will have been the heat building up around the referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

"Paying £250 per ton for coal when our competitors"
Thank you for confirming that our major industries have been deliberately and systematically destroyed and have been for profit - now please go and tell your friend.
No country that relies totally on imports can be sustainable, particularly in a crisis.
The quality of British goods was unmatchable throughout the world despite your having described them as "crap" (it takes a true patriot to describe British Steel as "crap").
Buying cheap for the working person is a false economy, the inferior quality of the materials means that they no longer have the usage-life and have to be replaced in a shorter time - fine for the profiteer, more costly for the user.
Blaming British Labour costs is typical Tory double-speak - at no time in British history has the working person been overpaid - Tory double-speak.   
Try fly-by-night profiteering, under-investment, lack on incentive on the part of the worker and simple mismanagement.
Profit has completely elbowed out national well-being and planning for Britain's future - the quick buck and lets blame the workers has replaced planning for the future - hence the hand-to-mouth policies which have lessened the values of peoples' lives.
Not only have the British people as a whole suffered directly from these policies, but the slave-like conditions the workers who produce the foreign goods we buy have to endure has destabalised the entire planet - Britain has now become and investor in neo-slavery.
The results of this have been a massive refugee crisis, destabaliing national upheavals which have been capitalised on by religious nutters, creating an international terrorism crisis, the necessity to prop up despots to keep the oil flowing........
This system is no longer fit for purpose - an administration which should serve all the people, now exclusively serves only the most wealthy and the most acquisitively predatory with a nod to national well-being only at election time.
If the economy is more profitable, the British citizen is not benefiting from that profitability - proven beyond dispute by the accelerating gap between rich and poor, and the eroding away of the rights of ordinary people who have never had a sufficient say in their working lives, but now have none whatever - a voice through the unions, security of employment, a choice in what we spend our lives doing, security of tenure..... gone within the last thirty years.
The world is facing a new FINANCIAL CRISIS and things are due to get worse - all the Little Englander walls are not going to exacerbate that situation - at a time we need friends, we are being asked to adopt an "I want to be alone" isolationist policy in the best Greta Garbo tradition in order to win back an independence which was long sold before we became part of the E.U.
All the workers' fault and the immigrants, of course (as claimed by the claimed by the sewer level advertising now reached by Ukip and Teribus the Tory.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:46 AM

Good piece in The Spectator:

Out - and into the world

"Since 1975 the EU has mutated in exactly the way we then feared and now resembles nothing so much as the Habsburg Empire in its dying days. A bloated bureaucracy that has outgrown all usefulness. A parliament that represents many nations, but with no democratic legitimacy."

"Michael Gove revealed how, as a cabinet member, he regularly finds himself having to process edicts, rules and regulations that have been framed at European level. Laws that no one in Britain had asked for, and which no one elected to the House of Commons has the power to change. What we refer to as British government is increasingly no such thing. It involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove."

Simple comment on Carroll's latest cliché riddled rant full of empty "working class warrior" rhetoric - IF {BIG IF at that} everything you say there is true, I do not doubt for a second that YOU are idiot enough to believe it, care to tell us all why hundreds of thousands of people have flocked to THIS country rather than settle in the idyll that is Europe?

23rd June 2016 hopefully the day that Great Britain votes to leave the EU - then you will see how amenable to change the EU becomes.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM

Jim, I am amazed that you are still arguing the point.
You said, "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry," but in fact "Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)

Your statement was wrong, I was right to challenge it, and Steve was wrong to attack me for it.
End of.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM

Jim Carroll - 18 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

Our major industries Jim were subsidised to the hilt – illegal under EEC laws and directives – once the subsidies stopped those industries folded.

The quality of British goods was unmatchable throughout the world

IF that was true I would love to hear the explanation as to why nobody bought those goods.

" Buying cheap for the working person is a false economy,

Matter of individual choice, which can hardly be blamed on Government or manufacturers direction.

Blaming British Labour costs is typical Tory double-speak - at no time in British history has the working person been overpaid - Tory double-speak.

If the high cost of labour was not an issue then jobs would not have gone overseas. If irresponsible action by trades unions hadn't been so rife in the 1960s and 1970s then a reputation for dependability and ability to meet contractual deadlines would have enhanced British industry.

To keep an industry and companies within that industry competitive change is constantly required. Everything must be in balance. Strikes affect the ability to meet commitments and raise unit costs paying for those increased costs and paying contractual penalties reduces profit, which in turn adversely affects the ability of companies to carry out any investment programmes.

Profit has completely elbowed out national well-being and planning for Britain's future

It would appear that "profit" to you is a dirty word – Profit in any business is essential for there to be a healthy economy, for there to be "national well-being" and for the nation to have any sort of future.

Out – And into the World


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM

"Jim, I am amazed that you are still arguing the point."
And I am amazed you are still clinging on to tor obviously false statement when your mate has just cut the legs from under you.
If Britain has an industrial base you would show where it has and not whom you claim has said it has - if we have an industial base, what it it made up of - not steel, no ships, not textiles, not cars, not coal - your mate has just told us that they can't compete - pretty much the same as "Irish hatred" - it's there but I won't tell you what it is.
I am also amazed that your mate should produce an excellent quote which totally undermines his and your whole approach to Britain to prove something I have never suggested.
I don't believe Europe to be a panacea for our problems - I don't trust its purpose or its politics, but in thh present situation, it is infinitely preferable to the immediate alternative of accelerating unemployment with nowhere to go.
I make no apologies for supporting the interests of the people as a whole to those of a greedy, predatory and nationally destructive bunch of vultures - but we all have our heroes.
As I said, tying the will of the pople to the interests of the State, especially one that is firmly tied in with profiteering big business, is fascism, pure and simple - not a system I put put my vote in the box for (not that you get to vote for such a monstrous idea anyway - contradiction in terms)
I am not surprised that Teribus continues his abusively childish behaviour - a sure sign of someone with no confidence in his own ideas so he feels he needs to bully and bluster to get them across.
You really shouldn't be surprised when people attack you Keith - your behaviour more than merits it and you certainly aren't averse too attacking others when it suts you - "glass houses" - remember?.
Yours,
Jim Carroll the "obsessive" "Muppet", "igonramus" "anti-Bristish" "antisemitic" "Leftie......


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:36 AM

Jim to have an industrial base or a manufacturing base does not necessarily mean that it has to involve the heavy industries on the scale you seem to imagine.

I believe now that we have the fifth largest economy in the world according to five different surveys. Keith A's information is normally correct and he does provide real sources which are verifiable so if he provides sources {The Financial Times} that says "Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." Then who am I to say that they have got it wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM

"I don't believe Europe to be a panacea for our problems" - Jim Carroll

Really Jim? You are on record as saying the opposite with regard to Ireland, you couldn't praise the EU highly enough in fact. I'm paraphrasing but the foundation of Ireland's success was the EU IIRC.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

"You are on record as saying the opposite with regard to Ireland, you couldn't praise the EU highly enough in fact."
No I am not - that is simply untrue - bu you are quite at liberty to prove me wrong.
I said Ireland did well out of Europe - I also said that Europe shat all over Greece.
I said I had opposed the EU and not voted for it in the British referendum.
My support for remaining in the EU has always bee a question of the best on offer in the present circumstances, particularly as regards employment - nothing more.
" in fact. I'm paraphrasing"
In fact you are making it up by being dishonesty manipulative in what I have said.
As far as I am concerned, the E.U. is a gathering of capitalist nations - we live under capitalism so we may as well take the best of what's on offer.
"I believe now that we have the fifth largest economy in the world according to five different surveys.
To have a necessary industrial base it needs to have large industries - we had plenty once till Mad Maggie deliberately destroyed them for profit.
You have always agreed that Britain not only has no industry but it doesn't deserve one as our products were crap and our workers lazy.
We can't exist as an industrial nation on cottage industries and souvenirs.
Out industries are based on imported components - what we sell has been produced elsewhere.
Suits the already bloatedly opulent, screws the rest of us.
We have no manufacturing industy and no nation can successfully survibe by having to relay on others.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM

Jim,
We have no manufacturing industy

You have said it again even though you know it is shite!

"Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM

"You have said it again even though you know it is shite!"
Care to examine this PIE CHART
%39 os Britain's exports are of money - finances.
%25 are of unspecified "other businesses
%13 is insurance
%1 is unspecified goods - cars - assembled in Britain
%4 chemicals
%4 transportation
%2 personal and cultural recreation
%2 Communications
%6 Pharmesuticals
None of these can be considered British manufacturing industries.
As I said - Britain has no idustrial base
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:14 AM

You said, "We have no manufacturing industry"

That is shite!

"Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM

Don't you ever call me obsessive again - you have the facts, the act you can only respond by repeating something that doesn't relate to the reality of those facts is an indication that there is somewing seriously wrong with you.Go away and "win" something


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:13 AM

The pie chart is about exports, not manufacturing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM

"The pie chart is about exports, not manufacturing."
And my point is about having a manufacturing industry to export.
None of the industries which once formed the basis of our economy are viable - we rely on importing everything we need - an appalling state for a country with Britain's history to be in.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

And my point is about having a manufacturing industry to export.

That is not what you stated.
You said, "We have no manufacturing industry"

That is shite!

"Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)

So we do have manufacturing industry, and your statement was wrong.
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:59 PM

Video that's Anti Brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:22 PM

"an appalling state for a country with Britain's history to be in."

Is that the Britain that you constantly disparage and denigrate?

The 25% attributed to "other businesses" is manufacturing - same source different article on his blog. I take it that you didn't reference that as it didn't suit your purposes.

One of the reasons that Great Britain has been as successful as t has been is because it is prepared to adapt and does not attempt to live in the past as you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:26 PM

For a sane and dispassionate assessment of the wilder claims of the "Brexit" brigade, especially with regard to the bogus claims of our weekly contribution to the EU, I recommend today's special edition of More Or Less on Radio 4, on this morning, available on iPlayer.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:52 PM

I wish non UK residents would not just sound off without correct and fuller information.

The UK gets many many benefits from being part of a peaceful confederation. Said benefits include environmental protection, workers rights, and free medical care for UK citizens in Europe. Not to mention human rights.
All of those things will be rolled back or dimished. UK's own government is both a monarchy and a kind of elected dictatorship without the checks and balances of recent properly constitutional polities.

The UK has more non-EU immigrants than EU ones. WIthout immigrant labour, the health service and care homes for the very old would be even unsustainable.

If people perceive pressure on services and resources, that is because of a conservative government's failure to invest in the infrastructure for health, education, and transport because of an ideology of austerity that coexists with a drastic increase in social inequality and uneven distribution of wages.

The small landmass of Europe had one of the bloodiest more war-ridden histories of any corner of the earth for many centuries. Now it is unthinkable to imagine armed conflict between EU states.

The UK has not lost sovereignty. It can vote on EU legislation and has opted out of a large number of provisions. If it leaves the EU but wishes certain kinds of trade agreement, it will still have to pay in and accept other provisions, but without any chance to negotiate them. Just look at Norway.

US-ians would be shocked by many aspects of non-democracy in this constitutional monarchy. The UK does not have a democracy. It has monarch and a plutocratic/kleptocratic system for protecting the power of the rich.

And now the media his been rife with toxic hate-stories fomenting division and hatred. And lies. This is one of the most prosperous countries in the world. There should be enough for all if it were divided more equally. People enjoy free health care and a standard of material comfort unimaginable a century ago. And yet they feel that there is not enough to go around. That hatred led to tragedy a few days ago.

No: getting out will not lead to freedom or prosperity. It will remove some of the few
checks that help peace, human rights, social justice and other humane values and lead to untrammelled progress towards an ideology of cuts, austerity, profits for the rich, selling off of public assets, zenophobia, racism and worse. As many have already pointed out, the leave-campaign and UKIP are drumming up sentinements reminiscent of 1930s Germany.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:20 PM

Well said. As for those charlatans who claim that the EU is "undemocratic," I should like to point out that this referendum couldn't be more undemocratic if it tried. Tens of millions of people with little or no knowledge of our economy, let alone of our relationships within the EU, are being asked to vote yes or no on an issue so complex that it foxes every economist I've listened to, yet the people are being bombarded with populist and simplistic arguments about immigration, pandering, quite deliberately, to the lowest racist instincts of as many people as possible. That is a subversion of democracy, propagated by a bunch of hypocrites.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM

From your post peregrine I take it that you are not a UK resident and posted what you did from complete and utter ignorance.

Oddly enough we actually managed to survive on our own for over a thousand years before it became part of what the British electorate thought was a trading partnership.

If Britain does not have a democracy then there are many countries in trouble as it was upon the British model that their systems were formed.

Since the end of the Second World War Britain has been under Labour Governments for as long as it has been under Conservative Governments, so do not for one second attempt to land all the country's ills on the shoulders of one political party - it doesn't wash.

Talking of non-democracy care to tell us who is responsible for introducing legislation in the EU? - Rhetorical question - It is the EU Commission, a group of unelected officials - EU legislation "involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove."

Norway complies with less than 20% of all EU legislation and it's Parliament has the final say on whatever it does accept from Brussels. Norway does pay into the EU's coffers but Norway also makes a profit from the EU.

"The small landmass of Europe had one of the bloodiest more war-ridden histories of any corner of the earth for many centuries"

Really peregrina? The basis for that statement is what exactly. Care to tell us about wars on other continents over the same period or are you trying to tell us that elsewhere in the world was all sweetness and light, remembering of course that Genghis Khan eliminated the entire population of Afghanistan when he invaded. That Shaka raided and slaughtered subservient tribes each year in southern Africa enslaving those he did not kill. Various states in what is now known as India were almost permanently at war with one another. Or were you not aware of those facts peregrina?

"getting out will not lead to freedom or prosperity. It will remove some of the few
checks that help peace, human rights, social justice and other humane values and lead to untrammelled progress towards an ideology of cuts, austerity, profits for the rich, selling off of public assets, zenophobia, racism and worse."


Of course it will peregrine, the very second we vote to leave children will be forced up chimneys and slavery will be reintroduced. The profits you witter on about pay peoples wages and secure their employment, they ensure that workers pension funds are able to secure the old in their retirement. Of course we could always learn and follow the example of the "workers paradise" that was the Soviet Union. Now oddly enough I do not see hundreds of thousands lined up on the borders of Russia begging to be allowed in - care to tell us why that is?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:57 PM

Well, the UK has been outvoted on 58 issues in the last fourteen years but has agreed on over two and a half thousand issues. Most of those 58 issues have hardly been life-threatening. Pretty good for a club now with 28 member states. The basis of peregrina's statement on wars is bloody obvious. The two biggest wars of all time by a country mile were between European states, at least at their outsets, and the Common Market's forerunner was set up with the express aim of preventing such conflicts in the future. Irrelevant bluster about unrelated wars elsewhere does not dilute that point. And you fail to inform us that Norway must comply with rules on free movement of people, the numero uno campaigning gambit of the racist "out" campIgn. As for workers' pension funds, we have one of the worst state pension provisions in Europe and we have arseholes like Philip Green sucking money out of pension funds. Nothing to do with the EU one way or the other. As for unelected officials, you appear to be resoundingly silent about the half-dead, the unelected party lackeys and the men in frocks who infest the Lords. Last I heard, they were heavily involved in making our laws...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:33 AM

Thank you Steve Shaw.

Teribus, the tone and content of your message exemplify precisely the kind of toxic discourse of contempt and partial truths and justification of inhumanity that can bring such terrifying consequences.

My long reply was just swallowed up by a technical error, reminding me that I can look for serenity and try to do some good things nearby instead of choosing to tilt at windmills.

I will only say: children are taught to share toys and talk instead of hitting. It's a hard lesson. Europe is now one of the richest areas of the globe. yet in the UK, the poor are demonized, food bank use is going up, while executives get pay rises too large to spend on necessities in several lifetimes. Fear of foriegners, refugees, and of redistribution fuel the brexit campaign.
We should be ashamed to dehumanize people in need and people fleeing desperate conditions that would make us flee too. Turning victims into targets of fear and hate.

Before people complain of loss of sovereignty, they could do well to look at the grave flaws in the British system: no proportional representation, supposed mandates railroaded through by a governmet elected with a tiny majority and chosen by far less than half the population, and so on.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:59 AM

But this 'gravely flawed' British system is the one repeatedly chosen democratically by the British people in several surveys — and an actual honest·2·god referendum in 2011, in which proposals for your beloved proportional representation were thoroughly and incontrovertibly defeated. Those like peregrina & Steve just adore democracy, don't they -- always provided that the judgment of the δεμος just happens to come down in approval of the sort of system they'd prefer. When it doesn't [as, I reiterate, only 5 years ago!] they wiggle their ɷ's and get ever so sulky and peevish! Great advertisements for their sort of 'democracy', aren't they!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 05:23 AM

... Nor does it always result in the sort of government they would like at that, does it? Italy & France have had PR for a long time; and a fine example of stability their govts have provided over the years since end of WWii, eh! Israel has had PR since its inception in 1948; resulting in a series of election successes of late years for the sort of govt to make those erstwhile supporters who laboured all those years for the state's establishment want to throw up. Or perhaps you two like the present Israeli admin's ways of working? Plenty of 9·to·5 sez that well·meaning boobies like the pair of you don't!


≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:06 AM

"Is that the Britain that you constantly disparage and denigrate?"
As far as I am concerned, Britain is its people not the institutions that have ground it into the shit in pursuit of yet more wealth.
It is the people you have described as too lazy to work, preferring to cadge off the state rather than abandon their families, get on their bikes and pedal down to London to join the dole queues in the hope of picking something up there and live god knows where.
The Britain I "disparage and denigrate" are those who hate the British people and persistently support the establishment that has fucked the country up.
You have made it quite clear who your "Britain" is - (Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM) you told us that the family comes second to the state, that to support the family is to betray the country - I've told you what that is - you seem to have accepted that as a badge of honour
The Britain that I respect and support is the one I grew up and worked in all my life, - the people forced to live on the shitty housing estates and work on the docks, who got up off their arses day after day, all their lives to do a day's work and who put up with Tory twats telling them they were all lazy, greedy, know-nothings and do-nothings.
My Britain is not the bankers (excuse the mis-spelling) and the entrepreneurs who are now crashing the country into recession after recession and the politicians who have created a situation where that will continue until they are stopped
Your "successful" is a Britain without rights run for the benefit of those who already have enough for ten lifetimes.
Not mine.
Your purported love of Britain is based on a hatred of and contempt for the vast majority of its population – the actual wealth producers – your Britain is the real spongers and the institutions – the Generals and the royal hangers-on, the flags and the ciphers - not its people
How can you love and respect a country amd despise its people?
What a ****** pair of blimpish Tory stereotypes!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:07 AM

Michael, please raise the tone.

Comments about 'you' that lump people together (and in this case refer to all of their views as if they are a monolithic group) are not really very helpful not to mention silly suggestions about moving parts of their body. It's all part of the pernicious way of seeing the world in terms of static us-versus them blocks instead of--to adapt Jo Cox's words-- looking for a common, shared, humanity, and affirming that what joins us is greater than what divides us.

If we change anything about representation, proportional having failed to win one test, I suggest that we give proportional weighting by age. Those who will be longest affected by any major change should have a larger say. And anyone old enough to operate a motor vehicle or enroll in the army should be eligible to vote.
Those who will be likely to live with the consequences for a shorter time, have a smaller say.

One of the tragedies of the current predicament is that it's such a massive kicking away of ladders.
Those who benefitted from free university education remove that opportunity from the young. (And sell on the educational debt for a profit.) Those who benefitted from the post-War NHS and Welfare state, and later the benefits of Common Market and EU kick it away from the young. A fine legacy, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM
Talking of non-democracy care to tell us who is responsible for introducing legislation in the EU? - Rhetorical question - It is the EU Commission, a group of unelected officials - EU legislation "involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove."

Can you explain how that is different from the UK system where the UK unelected civil service drafts legislation in relation to political aims for the politicians to approve or disapprove.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:49 AM

In fact, we have elected representatives in the EU and they can veto provisions.

But ours have not served us well. Other EU countries saved their steel industries. UK EU reps vetoed provisions to help.

Mr Farage himself is a Euro MEP rep--just check on his attendance record and see how often he has turned up, how often he exercises his duty to his constituents to vote. If there's a failure of democracy, it's to be laid at his door for not fulfilling his elected duty.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:18 AM

Your opinion as to my 'tone' is of little interest to me, peregrina.

I note your wish virtually to disenfranchise me on account of my being old enough to have lived long enough to survive the Blitz on London, although my N London school near my then home was destroyed in an air raid in 1940, and a landmine fell less than ¼-mile from our house in 1944 and blew out several windows; serve my country in its armed services; work long enough to qualify as an old age pensioner — your thanks for all of which would appear to be to endeavour to prevent my having any say in how succeeding generations of the nation I have served should be governed.

Comment, in any 'tone' in which I might have chosen to deliver it, would be superfluous. I can't imagine such proposals would be very widely supported by many of your fellow citizens, most of whom [to avoid the sort of mildly pejorative locution to which you appear to take such peculiarly fastidious exception] I would take to be rather more sensible, rational and intelligent than are you.

Regards
≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:37 AM

Well well MGM.

Personal insult or ad hominem remarks: the final resort of those who have no sound rational arguments. I won't copy you by indulging in praeteritio and insult.

And once again you engage in the nasty tactic of lumping me together with what you presume to be my identity into with a single large bunch. Yes, classic us versus them thinking. Have you read Yuval Harari's book Sapiens? I think not.

Tell me why you think the very old have a right to determine the shape of a polity for those who will be stuck in it long afterwards? Has it escaped you that many people did favour a lower age of democratic participation for this referendum? Or would you prefer to disenfranchise those you regard as insufficiently rational, sensible and intelligent??


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:58 AM

Ireland has a PR system which has just managed to defeat one of the most unpopular measures ever introduced by a government – water charges – it would never have happened in Britain
Any electoral system depends on how it is used and who can use it.
Ireland did well out of being a fully consenting member of Europe rather than the "shall I – shan't I" approach taken by Britain.
The gains of membership were destroyed, not by Europe but by the greed of the bankers and the corruption and incompetence of the politicians who put and kept them there.
Under PR, the Irish people managed to create a stalemate lasting for months which prevented the people who placed Ireland in its predicament from waltzing back into office on a first-past-the-post system and forced all the parties to openly co-operate – something else that never would happen in Britain.
Water charges, hopefully, will now be voted out of existence and some of the bankers who milked Ireland dry are now on trial for their dishonest behaviour
That certainly would never have happened in Britain
Even the police force of Ireland has been placed in the spotlight and made answerable for past crimes and incompetences.
There's democracy and democracy, it seems – stability is worth s.f.a. if it doesn't serve the people as a whole
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 09:10 AM

Not to belabour old battles from dead threads...... (but if Israel can be brought up as an example!
When Ireland was partitioned and the administration in the Six Counties announced its intention was to set up a Protestant State subservient to Britain in which Catholics would be exclude from office where possible and if not, neutralised among the first things it did was to dismantle the Proportional Representation electoral system and replace it with a first-past-the-post one.
This lead to an undemocratic and repressively divided sectarian state which never changed until conditions there brought about open warfare which spread to mainland Britain - that was what brought them to teh conference table - which doesn't seem to have reached the tea break yet, let alone a solution.
First-past-the-post makes a mockery of the term 'democracy'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM

@ peregrina --

You are welcome to the last word -- esp when so cogently and comprehensively and comprehensibly expressed in such incomparably insightful aperçus as

"lumping me together with what you presume to be my identity into with a single large bunch."

Adieu

❤☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺❤


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

Lovely. A gentleman?

Really MGM, you've illustrated precisely the concerns about civil discourse and us-against them prejudice and division that are so toxic right now.

And not a rational argument to offer: just ad hominem insults.

Maybe think for a moment about what people share, not how to divide them.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

Michael's hailing of our amazing parliamentary system needs to be set against the backdrop that the Tories obtained just over one third (37%) of votes cast, and under one quarter of eligible voters put their cross next to a Tory candidate. The vast majority did not get what they voted for. Just think how them there Tories go to town on trade unions when strike ballots attract a similar level of votes in favour versus eligibility to vote. The whole point of proportional representation is to try to do away with this, er, lack of democracy. In addition, I note that he freely indulges in the logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc In trying to persuade us that proportional representation leads to weak government. Perhaps he'd care to explain the continuing success of Germany then.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM

There was a bit on Science Friday about how the Br/Exit would affect science but I can't find it at their website, anybody got a better ferret?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 01:02 PM

So account, Steve, for the 'democratic' referendum rejection only 5 years ago of the system you would obviously prefer, and tghen justify such an attitude while trying to maintain your 'democraticv' credentials. Fear you have painted yourself into a bit of a corner, my dear fellow.

peregrina - having bid you adieu, have not read your latest addressed to me; & intend to read no more. So save your metaphorical breath to cool your metaphorically lumpy porridge.

☞〠☜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 01:51 PM

Steve -- precisely. Thank you for that.

Mrrzy -- effect on research funding, knowledge exchange and so on of leaving EU will be deleterious.
The UK benefits greatly (and indeed disproportionately from EU funds) for research. In short: science will suffer.

If anyone knows the MGM lion well enough to send something sweet his way, it would be a good turn. I'm rather disappointed at the level of personal insult and lack of reasoned argument. One of the justifications for free speech in a democracy is the idea that good ideas should drive out bad in open discussion. MGM's insults and refusal to engage don't exemplify civil discourse.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:03 PM

Well, peregrina, Michael is infamous in these parts not only for his unwarranted tirades of contumely directed at anyone not as right-wing as he is, but also for disappearing up his own linguistically-gnarled bottom.

Michael, the 2011 referendum was a cynical Tory ploy inflicted on (sorry: promised to) an extremely gullible bunch of LibDems. The choice in the vote did not anywhere near represent all the possible permutations of proportional representation. It was a total Tory con, and you know it. It is an informed example of absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: brashley46
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 09:55 PM

Quite the political thread you folks have here. I would just like to point out, from across the pond in Toronto, that not all the YES campaigners are teh right-wing Little England types. The leadership of the RMT union is the only labour leadership campaigning for the Yes, but there are surely a large minority of good trades unionists in the other organisations who are against it as well, on the grounds that Brothers Steve Hedley and Alex Gordon keep trying to push ... the EU is not a Europe for the workers and the peoples of Europe, it is a Europe for the bankers. It is a Europe which makes it virtually impossible for workers from other countries in the EU working in the UK to be paid at the same rate as British workers; how is that immigrant-friendly?

If it were possible to reform the EU so that the people who control it were democratically elected, that would be another question. But the Troika are not elected by any of the populations of Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:54 AM

Steve Shaw - 18 Jun 16 - 08:57 PM

It would seem that in general we are much in agreement

1: "Well, the UK has been outvoted on 58 issues in the last fourteen years but has agreed on over two and a half thousand issues. Most of those 58 issues have hardly been life-threatening. Pretty good for a club now with 28 member states."

Britain has always been popularly portrayed as always being at odds with the EU something that is a gross misrepresentation. Anti-EU feeling in the UK runs at about 49%, in countries such as Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany that percentage is much higher. Britain has never said No to the EU or called a referendum on any EU issue France has, the Netherlands have, Denmark has, Ireland has. Didn't help any of them, their Governments just rejigged the questions until Brussels got the result they wanted. The UK's "contentment" with the EU stems from deals that were made with it by Margaret Thatcher that excludes the UK from specific things the principle one being our currency - we can never be forced into joining the Euro.

2: The basis of peregrina's statement on wars is bloody obvious. The two biggest wars of all time by a country mile were between European states, at least at their outsets, and the Common Market's forerunner was set up with the express aim of preventing such conflicts in the future.

Peregrina put the point very badly and inaccurately. The European Steel and Coal Community was set up to specifically reduce the risk of any future war between France and Germany and to "control" Steel and Coal production so that in the environment of what was known as the "Cold War" West Germany could rearm. To date the EU has not shown itself capable of deterring anything, NATO on the other hand has.

3: "you fail to inform us that Norway must comply with rules on free movement of people, the numero uno campaigning gambit of the racist "out" campaign."

The trouble with the EU is that rules are not interpreted and applied in any standard uniform manner. If you actually think that Norway complies in the same manner as the UK, France, Germany or the Netherlands then you would be very much mistaken. Anyone thinking that they can just travel to Norway and look for work would be in for one hell of a shock.

4: "As for workers' pension funds, we have one of the worst state pension provisions in Europe and we have arseholes like Philip Green sucking money out of pension funds. Nothing to do with the EU one way or the other."

Who said pensions had anything to do with the EU? I didn't. In mentioning pensions I was addressing peregrina's "profits for the rich" nonsense. I was also not referring to State Pensions, but private and company pensions that rely on companies making profit. Oh and Sir Philip Green whose actions generally are to be condemned did nothing that Labour's very own darling and financial genius Gordon Brown didn't himself do with the State Pension fund while he was Chancellor under Blair. Which could be why our State Pension Provision is so poor.

5: "As for unelected officials, you appear to be resoundingly silent about the half-dead, the unelected party lackeys and the men in frocks who infest the Lords. Last I heard, they were heavily involved in making our laws..."

26 men in frocks and 92 of the "half dead" {If you are referring to who I think you are} out of a chamber of 800 sitting members. Hardly a "heavy presence" - most as you correctly state are party lackeys like the Kinnocks who have amassed a fortune worth over £10 million from their adventures in politics, the bulk of the money coming from their careers in the European set up. And no they are not heavily involved in making our laws, they have a role to play, they can even introduce a Bill that may or may not make it onto the Statute Books but they cannot make laws only the House of Commons can do that. The House of Lords can suggest amendments to Bills but the Commons are under no obligation to accept those amendments and the Lords cannot stop any Bill from becoming Law after its third reading. That dates back to The Parliament Act of 1911 that curtailed the power of the House of Lords and was discussed at some length in the Easter Rising thread. Did you know Steve that anyone can apply to become a member of the House of Lords there is even a website for it so that you can apply on-line - their success rate is 50%. Get cracking now that you have some spare time on your hands – you could go there and reform it from the inside.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM

Can you explain how that is different from the UK system where the UK unelected civil service drafts legislation in relation to political aims for the politicians to approve or disapprove."

Kenny B no comparison at all. In the EU it is the EU Commissioners who introduce the legislation and hand it down for the EU Parliament to discuss (Note: Discuss not approve) for the EU Parliament to do anything the decision made has got to have a two-thirds majority (Nigh on impossible in most cases - even when the entire Commission has been shown to be utterly corrupt - Remember the Delors resignations?).

Now in the UK all our political parties issue manifestos that tell us the great unwashed what they propose to do as and when they get elected to power. Provided they play fair and actually do what they say THE ELECTED MEMBERS OF GOVERNMENT assign the task of drafting the relevant Bill to the politically neutral Civil Service for introduction into Parliament when that Bill is debated, or "read", three times by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, during this process changes can be made, then after it's third reading it is passed into law by majority vote when the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:32 AM

"Peregrina put the point very badly and inaccurately. "
No he/she don't, but you continue to put your points extremely arrogantly and all your unqualified pontificating makes not the slightest difference to that fact.
Why can't you pretend, just for a minute, that others might just know as much, even more than you do.
All your (probably invented) bullshit is in no way approaching the basic fact that Britain is no longer able to stand on its own two feet economically and it needs all the friends it can get in the present situation.
Some of the argument put forward by politicians and economists for stopping in may well be electioneering, but next to those of buffoons like Johnson and Farrage (does anybody take these people seriously in Britain?) it seems blindingly obvious that there is an overwhelming case to remain in and negotiate changes from the inside rather than build a wall to keep the foreigners out - which is basically the ticket these clowns are fighting on.
We have no independence to "win back" - the destruction of our industrial base made sure of that.
Your fascism-based arguments that the people of Britain are subservient to the will of the State and our responsibility to ourselves and our families should come a poor second to that of the State makes it quite clear where you are coming from - hopefully, any decision taken will be based on something an bit more practical and decent that yours.
You appear to think that if you talk down to people they will accept what you say without lifting the corner and looking underneath - recent events should have shown you that this doesn't work.
Why not live and learn from past experience and stop insulting both people's equal, if not superior knowledge and stop talking like a blustering bully.
I'm happy to keep this up as long as you behave the way you do - you foul up decent discussion with your Mussolini soundalikes (he went down in history as a strutting clown - remember?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:40 AM

Politics in this country is filled with the foul stench of lies and bulling of people who think their view should be the only view and they will say anything to make it so. The damage the referendums have caused may not be so obvious in big cities but in small communities they have caused divisions that will take years to heal.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

the basic fact that Britain is no longer able to stand on its own two feet economically

Not a fact but a fallacy Jim.

How can the 5th economy in the whole world be incapable of standing economically.
If we can't, how do all the other nations below 5 (India, S Korea, Canada, Australia) manage?

Wrong again Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 07:43 AM

Couldn't agree more MeganL - but from personal observation I think that the Scottish Independence Referendum was far worse than the "In/Out" EU question.

"the basic fact that Britain is no longer able to stand on its own two feet economically and it needs all the friends it can get in the present situation." - Jim Carroll

This is the country that he is actually talking about:

The world's fifth largest economy;
The world's eighth biggest manufacturer;
A country whose language IS the world's international business language;
The country that is acknowledged as having the best contract law and the most trusted judicial systems in the world;
The country with the most innovative financial services sector;
The country with four of the world's top ten Universities;
The country which according to the World Bank has financially the most powerful capital city on earth.

The EU now is actually holding us back with regard to our trading prospects. If you remove the "Rotterdam Europort" factor we have been doing more trade outside of the EU for quite some time now, the EU "wrinkle" that if it goes from the UK to anywhere on the planet outside of the EU via Rotterdam's Europort it counts as trade with the EU. In the last 53 years since joining the EU, Switzerland {A medium sized country} and Singapore {A City State} have struck trade deals worth five times as much as the agreements the EU has managed. The EU with its 28 member states along with all their vested interests struggles mightily to agree terms of trade while at the same time it naturally prevents us from making our own way in the world as we quite happily and successfully used to do before 1973 - and no Mr. Carroll we do not have to produce coal, or steel, or build ships and motor vehicles or manufacture textiles to do that.

If we vote to leave the EU we are free to make whatever trade deals we like with 80% of the world - something the EU prevents us doing now. No real need to fear what the EU might do, the one thing they dare not do is to penalise us as we currently buy more from them than they do from us, so if they want to save THEIR jobs then they have to continue as before. If we vote to leave and keep everything exactly as it is now we are automatically £10.6 billion better off - that apparently would allow us to spend an additional £100 million per week on the NHS.

The EU's economy is the slowest growing in the world.
The EU's share of the world's economy is shrinking and people actually want to tie us to that.
Greece and it's problems have not gone away, that can just keeps getting kicked down the road, with other EU countries including France just waiting to burst onto the scene. France is in dire need of reform yet you will not find one word or one measure being taken to implement any such reform, so we should take this opportunity to get out while the going is good.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 09:22 AM

I hope everyone is alert enough to appreciate '(it would) allow us to spend an additional £100 million per week on the NHS" is a very different statement to "we will spend £100 million per week on the NHS".

But even if we do significantly increase our spending, it may not achieve what you might guess. My sister and her husband live in Germany, and are concerned they might be forced to move back if the vote is leave. Like most ex-pats, they are appreciably older than the typical migrant workers, and the consequent demands on the NHS to deal with their health issues is also much greater than those of the typical migrant. This is not so much cost, as the UK is already paying their health care: it is pressure on beds, the need for specialist surgeons, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 09:39 AM

Nice to see someone bringing up the Rotterdam 'wrinkle' at last.

I've been puzzled as to why an otherwise intelligent and capable person like David Cameron should show such support for the kind of bad deal that the UK gets from the EU. Then over the weekend I read somewhere, it might have been on here, that the Kinnocks have recieved up to 10 million in assorted benefits since Neil quit the leadership of the Labour party. They were both, Neil and Glenys, employed by the EU. Could it be that the carrot of the EU gravy train plus the allure of the power to be weilded in the EU is enough to turn the wisest of heads? I'll never know for certain, no-one will be tempting insignificant me, but it does answer the question of why people at the top of UK politics make such bad decisions on our behalf.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM
Kenny B no comparison at all. In the EU it is the EU Commissioners who introduce the legislation and hand it down for the EU Parliament to discuss (Note: Discuss not approve) for the EU Parliament to do anything the decision made has got to have a two-thirds majority (Nigh on impossible in most cases - even when the entire Commission has been shown to be utterly corrupt - Remember the Delors resignations?).

Arent the commissioners in fact Elected MEPs who make up the EU "Cabinet" just like in the UK?
Your comment of "No comparison at all " is your opinion and not a fair comparison of the two systems


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM

Kenny B - 20 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

Kenny B I would be interested to know why you only seem interested in "snipping" from a position of ignorance and why it is that you cannot be bothered to educate yourself, before bursting into print - to find out who and what EU Commissioners are would take you about 30 seconds on any search engine.

"Arent the commissioners in fact Elected MEPs who make up the EU "Cabinet" just like in the UK?

Short answer to that is no they are not elected MEPs they are appointees, put forward by member states, i.e. NOT ELECTED. Better ask Jim Carroll though he'll say I am just making that up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

I agree they appointees to the EU by member states elected governments.
It appears that on here if your are not an expert? you should not post or ask questions.

BTW If you are going to get shirty in discussions I suggest you get to know the difference between sniping and snipping. One could hardly accurately shoot an adversary at a distance with a pair is scissors.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:20 AM

"The world's fifth largest economy;"
The largest single body of exports are importing money
We import the overwhelming majority of our cars, coal ships, steel goods.......
"A country whose language IS the world's international business language"]
Fine for those in business - no ***** good if your standing in a dole queue
"The country that is acknowledged as having the best contract law and the most trusted judicial systems in the world;"
What difference does that make to those trying to feed their families?
"The country with the most innovative financial services sector;"
See above.
"The country with four of the world's top ten Universities;"
Out of reach of the vast majority of British people due to astronomical fees.
"The country which according to the World Bank has financially the most powerful capital city on earth."
Now you're getting down to the nitty-gritty - the crooks run the show and everything's tickety boo if we can keep them happy
" Better ask Jim Carroll though he'll say I am just making that up"
"Since 1999 voters in Britain have elected MEPs under a proportional representation system. The European Parliamentary Elections Act of that year introduced a regional list system with seats allocated to parties in proportion to their share of the vote."
EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
You're making it up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM

Michael, the 2011 referendum was a cynical Tory ploy ... and you know it.
.,,.,.
I know nothing of the sort, Mr Shaw; but know this to be a typical, predictable, grumpy 'democratic' leftie response when the facts of what the δεμος actually want fail to match up to your/their doctrinaire and witless preconceptions of what the δεμος ought to want.

Keep it up. You & the lady with the classical sounding user·name which I can't be bothered to check on at the moment, et al, really are a most entertaining bunch to represent archetypal leftie-wankerdom!

Best regards

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

"really are a most entertaining bunch to represent archetypal leftie-wankerdom!"
Gone over to the dark side Mike - a little beneath you, don't you think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:41 AM

... & I daresay you will dismiss this, in typical pusillanimous fashion, as an 'unwarranted tirade of contumely'; but it seems pretty warranted to me, and scarcely unduly contumacious..


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM

How long after a "YES" win would it be before packs of armed ultra right wing nationalist paramilitaries roam the streets,
knocking on our front doors late at night.... 😨


.. But looking on the bright side.. would I also eventually be able to legally buy an automatic assault weapon
just like ordinary folks can in America..

Brilliant.. I can't wait for the UK to end up like the Ukraine...
much better than just watching apocalyptic civil wars on the telly... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

My response to The Shaw. into which you contrived with uncanny timing to intervene, will perhaps furnish an answer to your query, Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 12:58 PM

"archetypal leftie-wankerdom"

I must admit I do like that - well done MGM-Lion you have them described accurately to a 'T'.

Apologies for the typo Kenny B I promise to try harder in future, I did of course mean "sniping". All of that though does not excuse your deplorable lack of knowledge considering that you voluntarily saw fit to engage in a discussion making assertions that are clearly wrong to anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge.

Jim Carroll of course does not have even rudimentary knowledge but once again he responds to what he thinks has been said as opposed to responding to what actually has been said - missing the mark by a "Kerry Mile" as usual. Pssst Jim we are talking about EU COMMISSIONERS NOT MEPs.

As to "crooked" bankers? Nobody complained when bankers were making spectacular profits which unlike Starbucks, Vodaphone, Google, et al, did pay their corporate taxes. The likes of Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown praised them and piled honours on them. Then along came a US President called Bill Clinton who in 1998 to demonstrate to all that the American Dream was still alive and kicking persuaded the main US Mortgage Brokers Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae to provide mortgages to people who should never have been lent a red cent. The lie not so much told but inferred as those Mortgage Brokers arranged mortgages with various banks and lending institutions was that the Federal Reserve would guarantee those loans, which of course they wouldn't. Now lots of people, bankers included actually believed this inferred and completely baseless guarantee. So when the S**T hit the fan in 2008 the Fed truthfully stated that they knew nothing about any guarantee, unfortunately when in November 2008 GWB asked Congress to approve $740 million to cover this, they said NO. Had they said YES there would have been no crash, there would have been no loss in confidence in the lending institutions. The reason the Democrat dominated Congress said No was because they wanted their man Barack Obama to ride to the rescue, which he did in February 2009, unfortunately by then it wasn't $740 million it was $834 million but by then it was too little and far too damn late. Why the banks had to be saved? Simple really, had they been allowed to fail, millions of people would have lost their savings, hundreds of thousands of businesses would have been forced to close their doors, with the subsequent loss of jobs, those who did not lose their jobs would not have been able to be paid, it would have been complete and utter chaos - so the Government did what it HAD TO DO and in so doing saved the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:05 PM

And pompous with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:21 PM

Jim, how happy are you with the EU election results under PR?

The result was UKIP first, with 24 seats.
Labour second with 20.
Conservative third with 19.

The following year at the General Election under FPtP, Ukip got just 2 seats.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:26 PM

"Jim, how happy are you with the EU election results under PR?"
Does it matter - if a system is undemocratic, as it certainly was (and intended to be in the Six Counties), it doesn't become any less undemocratic because it doesn't get your man into Parliament.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM

"Pssst Jim we are talking about EU COMMISSIONERS NOT MEPs."
And EU Commissioners, like cabinet ministers are appointed not elected - you boorish lout.
Why should that be an issue in Europe?
Were you brought up loutish or did you have to go to college to learn it?
"As to "crooked" bankers? Nobody complained when bankers were making spectacular profits which unlike Starbucks, Vodaphone, Google, et al, did pay "
Peploe complained when their behaviour sent the economy belly-up and we found out what a bunch of crooks they really where - excusing their dishonest puts you were you are.
Or are you suggesting that self-serving dishonesty is OK because nobody knows about it?
Didn't they teach you about morals and responsibility when you hold responsible public positions?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM

Check out John Oliver's take on the issue from last night's "This Week Tonight". Showstopper of an ending!










Ruddy Great Belgian Bastards!
Monty Python


"The English the English the English are best, I wouidn't give tuppence for all of the rest!"
Flanders and Swann


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM

And EU Commissioners, like cabinet ministers are appointed not elected - you boorish lout.
Why should that be an issue in Europe?


Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point and always end up comparing apples to oranges???

The role of EU Commissioners cannot be compared to the role of Cabinet Ministers in any national government. Member states appoint Commissioners to the EU Council of Commissioners, in a national government cabinet ministers, most of whom have already been elected as members of the representative body, although in the UK members of the Lords can be appointed as Cabinet Ministers, but all Cabinet Members are appointed by the Political Party that has been elected to govern the country.

Now Kenny B assured us all that it was a fact that all EU Commissioners were elected MEPs they are not - that is fact.

He also tried to tell us {paraphrased} that in the UK the 'unelected' Civil Service dream up whatever legislation is put before Parliament - that is not true and nothing could be further from the truth.

Before Kenny B makes a point of it, who is this character Peploe who complained? You cliché ridden archetypal leftie-wanker - as you seem to be in the name calling mood {Thanks again Michael - you are a gem}


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

So as not to disappoint
Was it a typo? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

It happens to the best? of us

Rudimentry Reading by Boris


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM

"Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point "
WILL YOU ******* STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE - YOU'VE MADE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN THE PAST BY DOING SO AND YOU CONTINUE TO HERE - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU REALLY AREN'T THE BRIGHTEST STARTFISH IN ANYBODY'S SANDBUCKET NO MATTER WHT ILLUSIONS YOU HAVE OF YOURSELF!!
The appointment to any body is on the basis that they represent that body and not the interests of one particular interest - they are there to serve the interest of the body, not individual states, that is fought for by the MEPs.
Do youreally not understand that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM

"Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point "
WILL YOU ******* STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE - YOU'VE MADE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN THE PAST BY DOING SO AND YOU CONTINUE TO HERE - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU REALLY AREN'T THE BRIGHTEST STARTFISH IN ANYBODY'S SANDBUCKET NO MATTER WHAT DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR YOU HAVE OF YOURSELF!!
The appointment to any body is on the basis that they represent that body and not the interests of one particular interest - they are there to serve the interest of the body, not individual states, that is fought for by the MEPs.
Do youreally not understand that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM

Perhaps one of the passing forum fairies who were quick enough to close down threads when we were all slagging each other off might oblige with a quick word in this feller's ear abut his insulting behaviour before this thread goes belly-upward - perhaps that's what he's after.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

Why I wonder, did Boris take so long to make up his mind about which side to support.
He had something to lose if he followed David Cameron and he lost.
Had nothing to lose if his side won and a lot to gain.
Or maybe it was a case of who offered the biggest "incentive" to join them.
Nobody on any of the debates has been allowed to ask him or Michael Gove how much they would personally gain in monetary terms by supporting the "Leave" campaign
In the words of the infamous Bluebottle "Just a thought"

In a northern accent " if some buddy Brexit and it cannie be fixed should I vote for it"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM

Well then 'Wolfie' my little ALW, when it comes to discussion on this forum I am not hampered and tied by your bankrupt, disproven, tired and outdated clichés, mind-set, inverted snobbery and Anglophobia that belong to half-a-century ago.

Your new pal was wrong and if you want to talk of anybody making a fool of themselves on this forum you just continue as you have been doing. If you want two words to describe the Brussels set up that accurately reflects them those words would be corrupt and unaccountable.

IF you think I am talking down to you Carroll then the remedy is simple - RAISE YOUR GAME by trying a bit of original thought and application.

Kenny B if it is thoughts of venal gain that concern you. Where is your condemnation for the Kinnocks who acquired over £10 million supping at the EU trough and acting as paid political lackeys in their own right sitting in the House of Lords.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:31 PM

I'd just like to mention that the spinning of the horrific killing of Jo Cox by the Remain campaign was just about the most cynical and disgusting political action of recent years.

For Cameron to personally link Mr Farage and the Leave campaign in general to the murder, for political gain, was inexcusable.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:32 PM

If you haven't already seen it From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:36 PM

Sorry, something went badly wrong with that link and it has garbled two posts together, didn't realise you could do that!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:51 PM

Here is the video that I tried to link to above which is a summary by someone who actually works in the field.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM

It is perfectly reasonable to infer a link between the murder of Jo Cox by a deranged fanatic, identifying himself as a "patriot" and the increasingly xenophobic rhetoric of elements in the leave campaign.

I would suspect that there will be a good number of till now undecided voters who will come down on the Remain side because they infer such a link.

That is not the same thing as suggesting a direct link. And so far as I'm aware no one has suggested or implied any such link.
..............
As has been pointed out, government ministers are not elected any more than EU commissioners. The process is that the Commission President, who is elected by the European Parliament for a term of five years, is presented with a list of commissioners appointed by EU govenments, and chooses which posts to give them. The complete list of appointed commissioners is then taken back, and is accepted or rejected a whole.

In a sense this is fairly similar to the Westminster model, where Parliament approves a Prime Minister who has been appointed formally by the reigning monarch, on the basis that he or she is able to win a vote of confidence in the Commons. The Prime Minister has absolute authority to appoint anyone he or she likes to be a Minister (they can always be appointed to the Alords if need be), and the Commns has no say in it.

Both systems are partly democratic, partly the reverse. The EU model, constrained by the non-federal structure of the EU, means that by definition Commissioners cannot all come from the same party, and that the whole system is intrinsically multi-party. This has disadvanrages as well as advantages. But not many Brexiters complaining about a democratic shhortfall are advocating a move towards a more fedderal system.

It is possible to think of reforms that would increase democratic control, but of course tyat can only be brought about by people in the EU acting together.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:43 AM

"I am not hampered and tied by your bankrupt, disproven, tired and outdated clichés,"
No - you are hampered and tied by your own attitude to others.
Just as nobody here is impressed by your goosestepping bullying
You have been given my, and other people's reasons for arguing as you do - in typical of your kind fashion you have responded with bullshit and bluster, as you do - it hasn't served you well here in the past and there are no signs of it having done so here.
Your contempt for the members of this forum is palpable - even if you had arguments worth considering, your self-absorbed arrogance prevents them from getting across
Keep it up - every little helps, as the man from Tesco says.
At ease, Captain Mainwearing.
"For Cameron to personally link Mr Farage and the Leave campaign in general to the murder, for political gain, was inexcusable."
For Farrage to make immigrants the main target in an election in a way no other party has done in the past is an indication that his party is a neo-fascist racist driven one.
"It is perfectly reasonable to infer a link between the murder of Jo Cox by a deranged fanatic,"
Perhaps it's worth reproducing this from yesterday's Times:
Jim Carroll

"FAR-RIGHT GROUPS 'ARE INCITING HATE ON SOCIAL MEDIA'
Gabriella Swelling, Fiona Hamilton, Georgie Keate
Police are being urged to investigate extreme right-wing groups and their incitement activities after a series of hateful messages were published on social media in the wake of Jo Cox's murder.
Nationalist groups have been accused of glorifying Thomas Mair, Mrs Cox's accused killer, crowing about the attack and making excuses for it.
It comes amid concern about the rise of the far right in pockets of the UK, notably in Yorkshire, with violence at anti-immigration marches and in¬creasing anti-Muslim hate crimes.
In the days since Mrs Cox's death scores of members of far-right organisations have taken to social me¬dia to make threats to other MPs and to crow about the fate of the 41-year-old mother, who was a prominent cam¬paigner for remaining in the EU.
The northeast unit of National Action, which has campaigned for Britain to leave the EU, tweeted: "VoteLeave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain. Jo Cox would have filled Yorkshire with more subhumans."
The police northeast counterterrorism unit confirmed they were probing a number of "offensive messages on social media and extreme social media content". A spokesman said: "We are conducting checks on this material to establish whether or not any criminal offences have been committed."
There have been numerous other disturbing messages from far-right supporters in other areas of the coun¬try, resulting in calls for police to moni¬tor and investigate online hatred.
A member of the English Defence League, another far-right group, posted on Facebook: "Many of us have been saying for years that sooner or later "SOMEONE" was going to get killed. No one thought it was going to be one of "them" (left-wing) who was going to be the first victim of the coming civil unrest heading towards Europe... BUT he had reached his breaking point (like many of us) and snapped."
One Twitter user described Mrs Cox as a "traitor" while another said she was a "threat to the UK" and described Mr Mair as an "Aryan warrior". Another group, linked to a news story of Mrs Cox's calling itself the Notts Casual Infidels, murder and posted on Facebook: "We knew it was only a matter of time before we take it to the next level. We have been mugged off for too long."
A man associated with Pegida UK, an anti-Islam group, posted on Facebook: "From today the game changed as a good friend said have a look at today's date 16/06/2016. Next time the government must listen to its people."
Matthew Collins, head of research at Hope not Hate, a charity that seeks to defeat the politics of extremism within British communities, said he was con¬cerned that "there are a number of tiny, right-wing organisations that are taking great glory and satisfaction from Jo's death".
He added: "I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division."
Mr Collins said that although there were many people who did not agree with or vote for Mrs Cox, "they had the decency to recognise the contribution she made to wider society".
Referring to hateful messages posted on social media, he said: "These people are so on the margins of society that they no longer have any sense of moral decency or moral codes. I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division and are well aware of what such words have led to. These people are engaged in a whole network of tearing down the moral fabric of society."
Stephen Kinnock, the MP who shared an office with Mrs Cox, was subjected to "particularly venomous" online abuse last week after an article about his family's support for the Remain campaign. One email threatened violence and has been reported to the police, he said.
Mr Kinnock said the far right were a "shady bunch" who had many of their "views legitimised by the referendum and the choice of the Leave campaign to go hard on immigration".
"I get the sense that a lot of rhetoric around the Leave campaign would have been classified as far right only five years ago but now' it's more mainstream. For example, I don't think any political party would have put up that poster of Nigel Farage's then.
"There seems to have been a drum beat over the years for venomous rhe¬toric. A lot of this referendum would have been classified as pretty extreme.
"Many MPs have a siege mentality because of the abuse, so I do think something needs to be done about it, but the question is what. You've got to get a balance between free speech and protecting people's security. The last thing we'd want to do is never hold surgeries, then the bad guys have won."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 05:53 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM

Kinnock Income - Daily Mail

Kinnocks income , initially horrified then I thought what is the going rate for this kind of work? I thought maybe Teribus will know.

The Daily Mail does good hatchet jobs on opponents and their families but it doesn't give comparisons against the "troughing" of Chris Patten over the same period or Leon Brittan over a period of roughly twice the length of the two others purely as examples of UK commissioners from around the same era.
The article also doesn't give a breakdown of the 10m ballpark figure so I ask myself, why? I.m sure it would have provided a breakdown and comparison if it was to its advantage.
Conclusion - Typical Daily Mail rhetoric with no attempt at context in a feeble attempt to influence people to vote Brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

Kenny B wrote: The Daily Mail does good hatchet jobs on opponents and their families but it doesn't give comparisons against the "troughing" of Chris Patten over the same period or Leon Brittan over a period of roughly twice the length of the two others purely as examples of UK commissioners from around the same era.
The £10 million is a mix of past salaries, allowances and pension benefits that allow a super affluent retirement. They probably don't have millions to spend at will. However the point that the EU is a super gravy train for past politicians explains why so many of them are in favour. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas? Well, many would say that is precisely what the Brexiters are trying to persuade the voters to do.

The thing that has been left out of the picture most of the time is that this is not an even choice where you haver around and then come down on the one that on balance appeals.

Out means out - there is no way back. If we have second thoughts down the line, tough. We will never have the option to return to the status quo. Remain, in contrast, is essentially provisional. If we think it wss the wrong choice, we can always decide to leave at any future timme. It's built into the EU treaty. The choice is in our own hands, and always will be.

Only people who are 100 per cent certain that etting out is the right thing to do should even consider voting for it. Any hesitation or uncertain, and voting remain is the only rational thing to do - whatever doubts we might have about whether it is the right thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM

Interesting to note that the Sterling rose in value yesterday on the basis of an estimates 53% support for staying compared to 46% for Brexit.
While its galling to think of these prickeens gambling on our futures, it is an indication of how serious they are taking the possibility of Britain leaving
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM

Some more information for you Kenny B:

Get elected as an MEP
With your Pay + Allowances (All Tax Free) for five years.
That earns you an 80% full pay Pension which is automatically taxed at the lowest rate of tax within the EU irrespective of where you actually live.
You get tax free lump sums to move in and a similar one to leave. If you manage it right you do not actually have to touch your "Salary" for five years.
That is just for an ordinary MEP. The real gravy train starts if you manage to wangle yourself onto EU Parliamentary committees - then you can really start milking the cow.
Best of all however if you manage to get yourself appointed as an EU Commissioner.

Remember the Queen's Speech that Kinnock as Leader of the Opposition refused to attend in the Palace of Westminster because of his deep seated objection to the institution of the Upper Chamber - Overcame those objections PDQ when he was offered his own seat in the place at £300 per day sitting or £150 per day if absent. Neil tends not to sit, while wifie a "Lord" in her own right likes the money and signs in to collect it - doesn't do much else though - hypocrites or what?

By the way Kevin, to become the Prime Minister of the UK you have to have been elected to the House of Commons - now tell me what you have to be elected to, to become the President of the European Union Commission, or become the President of the European Council for that matter - the answer of course is nothing - both are selected from a list of appointees - "the people" have no say and once in place they cannot be removed.

Now the Cabinet of the UK on the other hand:
"Ministers of the Crown, and especially Cabinet ministers, are selected primarily from the elected members of House of Commons, and also from the House of Lords, by the Prime Minister."

Nice try Kevin but there is one hell of a difference.

European Parliament = useless talking shop with no power whatsoever.
European Commission = Unelected clique who dictate policy and further their own interests without any regard for anybody else. Without doubt the most corrupt and unaccountable body on the face of this earth - wouldn't surprise me if Sepp Blatter was appointed as the next President of the EU Commission - after all he did such a great job at FIFA.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM

Look on the bright side Teribus, the Kinnocks getting paid is better than some "Johnny Foreigner" eh.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:03 AM

If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

What will their next move be...???


.. a coup.....????? 😰


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM


If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???


Well, I don't anticipate many of them saying that's democracy and the will of the electorate so we will shut up about it from now on ...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM


If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???


Well, I don't anticipate many of them saying that's democracy and the will of the electorate so we will shut up about it from now on ...


Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:20 PM

"Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat."

Explain to us all why there would be a huge market crash.

On the morning after a vote to leave we will still remain members of the EU for at least two years.

Jim Sillars put it brilliantly the other night:

If it is vitally important for us to consider and protect our£228 billion trade with Europe Why is it considered unimportant for the rest of the EU and the troubled and stagnant Eurozone to protect their £282 billion with us?

Of course there will be negotiations if we vote to leave.

6% of British companies do trade with Europe but 100% of our companies have to pander to the thousands of rules and regulations and cope with the red tape in order to trade with Europe - WHY?

Switzerland and Singapore have made bilateral trade deals throughout the world that have been worth five times the deals made by the EU over the same period - So where is this marked international advantage in being part of the EU?

By staying as part of the EU we cut ourselves off from 80% of the world. Our best performing earner the City of London does not suit the EU - they want to see it severely reduced as they (Germany) want the financial centre of Europe to be Frankfurt - they've already had one good crack at it, which we knocked back.

Last but by no means least can any of the "Remain Brigade" tell me why it is that those in charge of the EU cannot produce a set of balanced accounts that shows where the EU's money has gone? And you seriously want to be part of this circus??


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM

If remain win, it may come to be seen as a mistake by those who voted for it.
Come the 2020 election, as in 2015 the Tories will fear a loss of support to UKIP and may have to offer another referendum to avoid it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:50 PM

"Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat."

Explain to us all why there would be a huge market crash.


There is no point. Firstly, as you are not willing to listen to all the economists who predict it, I don't delude myself you will listen to non-expert me. Secondly, I said 'if' there was a crash, not 'there will be', so I don't have to demonstrate a certainty I didn't claim. But thirdly, should we vote leave we will know one way or the other soon enough without wasting time debating it now.

But I am to read your response as suggesting that IF we vote leave and IF there is a crash, you will be posting here, eating humble pie, saying you were wrong? Somehow, I doubt you are any more likely to do that than Gove or Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:59 PM

Thanks Teribus
but why single out the Kinnocks for being two faced when there are so many others to choose from..

Keith, Keith, Oh please don't threaten us with another fnrendum.
Is that an attempt at scare tactics that has come too late, one that nobody dared give the light of day till now.
Just think of all those politicians, pundits and half-Pun-dits who will jump on the gravy train of giving an opinion.
Have mercy on the mods of Mudcat if nothing else


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:24 PM

"If it is vitally important for us to consider and protect our£228 billion trade with Europe Why is it considered unimportant for the rest of the EU and the troubled and stagnant Eurozone to protect their £282 billion with us?"

Possibly because that £282 billion is divided amongst 28 member states thus £10 billion per nation if divided equally.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:25 PM

DMcG the question is perfectly valid and still holds good. YOU obviously believe it, yet you cannot state why you believe it - Because a "Big Boy" told me?? I obviously must tend to question things more than you as I can state clearly why I think we will be better off in the long term out of Europe and trading with the rest of the world.

By the bye, did your "experts" give any time frame for this inevitable "huge market crash" that I must apologise for should we vote leave? Tell me does a weakened £ help or hinder our exports? Our currency has been too strong for too long, if we leave the Euro will weaken too, then of course there are all those non-binding not quite written in stone promises that "Call-me-Dave" got about us not having to bail out Eurozone countries - they will go out the window as soon as the next inevitable crisis hits the EU's idiotic currency.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:29 PM

You've forgotten to put some blame on decimalisation as well Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:38 PM

Anyone the Prime Minister wishes to become a member of his cabinet can and will promptly be given a seat in the House of Lords.

The point is, no one elects cabinet members or other ministers. No one even has any say apart from the Prime Minister, who was of course never subject to popular vote for that post.

Having the Chief Commissioner elected by popular vote would undoubtedly be a reform resisted to the hilt by all those who fear moves towards a federal structure for the EU. Indirect election by MEPs who have all been themselves elected is the compromise that has been adopted. The same way essentially that our Prime Minister is determined, apart from the relic of the monarch's role of actually appointing the person involved.

Talking shop? That's what the word parliament actually means. Talking being seen as a preferable way of sorting out things than fighting.

The fact that MPs have been individually elected to do one job, representing and serving their constituents, in no way means that they are in any way suited to do the very different job of running ministries etc. The American system where the equivalent of ministers are selected from non-elected members of the public, but subject to approval and rejection by the legislature has problems, is arguably more democratic. There is something to be said for introducing that both for the Commons and the EU.

In the Commons having this system, with sitting MPs not being eligible for government jobs, would end the ability of Prime Ministers to subvert the independence of the Commons by appointing a sizeable payroll vote who cannot act independently.

Undoubtedly the EU needs democratising reforms - as does the British system - but the so-called "reforms" David Cameron was after had nothing to do with getting them. A serious drive by to get them would win support from like-minded people in other countries. If in the next EU election there was a slate of candidates in all countries committed to getting those kind of reforms it might make for an election worth getting stuck into.

But of course that means not taking the irrevocable gamble of voting for out this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM

"Because a "Big Boy" told me?? "
Beats taking the word of a serial bullshitter every time
Jim Carroll
Financial Times


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:06 PM

Your FT article is neutral Jim.
What was your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:13 PM

DMcG the question is perfectly valid and still holds good. YOU obviously believe it, yet you cannot state why you believe it - Because a "Big Boy" told me?? I obviously must tend to question things more than you

i can only smile at that last bit, and I am sure some of the regulars here will smile at it too.

What makes you imagine I can't state why I hold the opinion I do? My policy on this site is to discuss things freely with anyone, but not to get into pointless arguments.   As to the question being valid, I only claimed ia crash 'could' happen not that it 'would'. I am sure you appreciate the difference. I deny it will happen, I assert it could happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM

"Your FT article is neutral Jim."
You haven't read it properly - it gives the pros and cons from an expert point of view allowing the readers to decide for themselves and take into consideration everything it doesn't cover, for instance, do I want to support a campaign that it 'fortress Britain' based and targeted specifically at immigrants and asylum seekers.
What is says on balance is the gains of leaving are fairly unfathomable and marginal, the immediate losses fairly clear and the long term ones - again 'blowin' in the wind'- not exactly "neutral" but I assume you mean, not making a suggestion of which way you should vote - fine by me - I'm capable of doing that fore myself if I am given enough "neutral" evidence to work with.
The F.T, is aimed at economists and investors anyway and as they are very much a part of the problem with Britain, I'm not likely to welcome any suggestion as to who to vote for anyway.
I know that goes against your particularly way of approaching things.
I don't begin to understand the economics of Europe but I know enough to realise this "winning back" of an independence we don't possess is crap.
So - you look at the figures, weigh up what side you are on as a human being and make up your mind on your conclusions - doesn't win any competitions so it's not for you.
The facts that would help me to decide are ethical and moral ones.
I know the neo-fascist right has based their campaign on pure racism - not for me.
Ukip racism
The actual fascists have shown what they are made of with the killing of Jo Cox - certainly a reason to vote stay.
Jo Cox, Brexit and the politics of hate
So - you look at the figures, weigh up what side you are on as a human being and make up your mind on your conclusions - doesn't win any competitions so it's not for you.
Of course we could forget everything and just take Teribus's advice - sure we could!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

I hadn't seen this before, but anyone care to join Boris?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:27 AM

DMcG....You have cited a post of mine which was unaccountably deleted.
I cannot understand what point you are attempting to make, though I notice that Jim has continued to link the campaign to gain some sort of control over immigration to "hated" of foreigners, racism, xenophobia, etc, etc.
People who lead and support withdrawal from the EU, have made it clear that immigration of some sort will always be required, but that to have no control over who comes here from the very poorest countries in the EU and in what numbers, is absolute ideological madness......the present policy of the EU on "free movement of people" is exploitative of the poorer countries and damaging to THEIR infrastructures......it is simply indefensible.


    I don't see any deleted messages from Akenaton in this thread. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:39 AM

The actual fascists have shown what they are made of with the killing of Jo Cox - certainly a reason to vote stay.

Is the attempt to kill Trump a reason to vote for him?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM

"Is the attempt to kill Trump a reason to vote for him?"
Just the opposite - if somebody had drowned Hitler in a bucket at birth the world would be a far better place.
If Trump triumphs there are going to be a hell of a lot of people dying as a direct cause of his policies.
Don't you dare compare heroes like Jo Cox to scum like Trump - haven't you learned your lesson yet?
None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies - though you did get your fingers badly burnt on the Jo Cox thread with your tasteless, but very revealing intervention there.
I take your silence to be a further indication of your own position on this matter, as I do Ake's old usual anti-immigration rant.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

No, ake, my posts related to comments by Teribus. Any relationship to posts by you is accidental.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies

I'll respond. This is wishful thinking, a typical left wing rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:59 AM

"I'll respond. This is wishful thinking, a typical left wing rant."
Bit late in the day, don'cha think?
I have never experienced such an extremist, openly race-based right wing election campaign in Britain - not ever.
Evn Powell's "rivers of Blood" had him thrown out of the Tory party and any acceptable to the Northern Irish Unionists.
Keeping "them" out has been the main objective of the Brexists.
In that light I'm more than happy to be described as a "typical left winger" - must get a tee-shirt.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:05 AM

The Brexit mob have been told to chant brainlessly "take back control" at the end of every other sentence. It means "take back control from all these Johnny Foreigners."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM

We Brits should stand together as Great Britain!. We have the power!. As the fifth wealthiest country in the world, why would any country wish to stop trading with us? The remain party seem to imply that coming out will destroy trade with the EU. So BMW, Mercedes etc etc etc are just going to cut us off are they. NO WAY! They might be a little worried that we would buy from elsewhere perhaps... like Japan, Korea, USA etc etc. So of course they want us to stay in or they might lose our trade!. The fact is that we do not need the EU! What we do need is to come out and appoint a government which is truly democratic (i.e. Of the people, by the people FOR the people)... not just for the rich who get richer in the EU and the poor gradually getting poorer. How many food banks have been set up since our entry into the EU`?. Lets get our own territorial waters back so we can catch our own fish... the EU has put many UK trawler men out of work and fish companies have diminished in our country. We have to buy fish caught in OUR waters from EU countries because we don't get enough of our own. All grown food exported to the EU has to meet certain criteria regarding size and appearance. Each strawberry has to be a regulation size to go to the EU countries. Each cabbage has to be of regular size. Most other harvested crops are governed in the same way. We didn't have those rules before!!!! Do you care how big your strawberries are as long as you get good value for money?
Who are the people in Brussels who are NOT ELECTED and who make all the final decisions? Can you name one? NO because even our top politicians don't know who they are.
David Cameron has tried to win the vote by appealing for different groups at differing times to vote remain..... Parents, It's for your children! Students, it's for your benefit etc etc. What he has not done is laid out a balanced view of the good or bad of IN or OUT.................... HE!!!! wants us to stay in because HE and members of the Aristocracy will get richer whilst the people in general get poorer and governed by more rules from the 'invisible' people in Brussels


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM

No, it means take back control from a corrupt, and bureaucratic cartel.

Never thought I would see you openly supporting the interests of big business Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:01 AM

Radio talk show host Glen Beck suggests that Jo Cox was murdered by her own people. That this nut job was pointed at her in order to gain a sympathy vote to stay in the union. And that "If you think this stuff only happens in Jason Bourne Novels you are hopelessly naive".

But consider the source.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM

Jo Cox was murdered by her own people. That this nut job was pointed at her in order to gain a sympathy vote to stay in the union
Or maybe it was by Brexit campaigners, aiming for a double-bluff.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM

I'm convinced that David Cameron already has a nice cushy job lined up in Brussels. Big salary, loads of expenses and an amazing pension at the end (paid at least in part by you and me of course), all depending on him delivering a 'Remain' result.

And what makes it even funnier is the fact that he has the majority of the Parliamentary Labour party on his side.

You couldn't make it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:15 AM

None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies

Not a fact Jim.
Just a ludicrous assertion from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

"We Brits should stand together as Great Britain!."
The other side of teh Brexit coin - Little England.
The argument that those who take the decisions are "unelected" ia a myth - HERE IS HOW DECISIONS ARE REACHED
Much preferable to the Boris Johnsons and the Nigel Farages of this world.
Britain has no economic base any longer - Maggie made sure of that - its major export is money - that fact benefits only the already wealthy and is the cause of all Britain's problems at present.
If you want to appeal for the sake of our children, tell us where they can go to look for the work Britain is unable to provide when they can no longer look to Europe for jobs.
There is no answer to this question, which is why the whole Brexit campaign is based on racist xenophobia on a massive and dangerous scale.
Thought we'd buried all that with Powell
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

Jim,
though you did get your fingers badly burnt on the Jo Cox thread with your tasteless, but very revealing intervention there.

You need to explain exactly what you mean.
What was wrong with my contribution, and do you think an obit thread is a place for a large cut and paste from a newspaper?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:44 AM

"Not a fact Jim.
Just a ludicrous assertion from you.
"


Keith - read as much as you can tolerate about "Britain First",
then consider the Brexit rhetoric that currently gives them a greater sense of purpose and legitimacy,
and likewise the tip of the Brexit iceberg that "Britain First" speak up for and represent....

Ideological and networking connections between the ultra far right wannabe militias and Boris's Brexit fan boy base,
are there for any reasonable objective observer to clearly recognise,
and in some regards as clear to see as a high powered searchlight... 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:56 AM

" Not a fact Jim. Just a ludicrous assertion from you"

This seems pretty racist to most thinking people professor.

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-profoundly-unhappy-farage-11503175


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:20 AM

"You need to explain exactly what you mean."
No I don't - you damn well know what I'm referring to (or you should), as do those who protested at your distasteful remarks
Your apologising for your behaviour must rank as a Mudcat first!
I'm talking about your casting doubt as to why she was murdered - and you know it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM

G.K.Chestertons apposite words:

The gallows in my garden, people say,
Is new and neat and adequately tall;
I tie the noose on in a knowing way
As one that knots his necktie for a ball;
But just as all the neighbours on the wall
Are drawing a long breath to shout "Hurray!"
The strangest whim has seized me. . . After all
I think I will not hang myself to-day.


Remember, there's no going back...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM

And this could be the last lifeboat off the sinking ship for the next forty years.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM

If the British Film Industry still made Ealing Comedies
Boris would be the Ship's Captain who threw away the life boats, life belts, wireless, and rudder
because he was absolutely certain he didn't need them... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:29 AM

Well we have been beavering away for the best part of 53 years in the EU trying to reform it and what good has it done? It is still as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable now as it was back then - So you can ignore "Call-Me-Dave" and the Remainers chant that we have more influence if we are part of it - truth is that it has been proven beyond doubt that we have absolutely no influence at all with regard to the EU - we just happen to be one of the mugs paying for it.

21 years now since the entire Commission was forced to resign - the Delors Scandal - and not once in all that time have those who run the EU been able to balance the books and account for the money they have squandered. Mind you that is an improvement over the Delors days when they simply made no attempt to do any accounting at all they ran the EU along the same lines that Louis XIV ran France with the citizens of Europe being required to pay into this bottomless pit.

Since 2008 UK economy has grown 6.8%
Since 2008 the EU's economy has grown 1.9%

Unemployment in the UK runs at about 5%
Unemployment in the Eurozone runs at 10.2%

And this is what the Remain Brigade want to shackle us to??

60% of all the rules and regulations put before the Parliament of Westminster come from Brussels, from nameless and unelected EU officials and bureaucrats. I happen to think that our Parliament and our civil service have got better things to do.

Scenes over in Calais of "refugees" and "Immigrants" stoning trucks and cars and causing all sorts of chaos, shouting "F**K Britain" while they attempt to stop traffic to force their way onto trucks to get across the Channel to Britain - BIZARRE isn't the word for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM

no going back...

No going back where Kevin? And who said so? I mean who said so that you could believe, who said so that had the authority to say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

What I really have trouble understanding on the EU issue, is why people are trying to discredit Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and David Cameron over it. Please search for the facts and not the dislike of personalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:48 AM

oh... please don't include Cameron with those two...

He may be an old etonian tory, but for the moment he's our old etonian tory... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:50 AM

Jim,
I'm talking about your casting doubt as to why she was murdered - and you know it.

She was certainly targeted for her views, as was Trump.
There is doubt in that we do not know if the killer and would be killer were insane or just political fanatics.

Being the victim of such an attack is not an endorsement of the victim's views.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

.. besides which.. It's Boris himself who's most of all turned this campaign into a pantomime of egotistical personality politics....!!!!! 😣


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

Pfr, Brexit is a legitimate and respectable cause.
The fact that the far right seek to benefit from it does not de-ligitimise that cause.

Jim claimed, " the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies "

It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM

Pfr, Brexit is a legitimate and respectable cause.
The fact that the far right seek to benefit from it does not de-legitimise that cause.

Jim claimed, " the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies "

It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:00 PM

"It is still as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable now as it was back then"
Sounds like any bank or financial institution you might care to mention.
How many of them have resigned - in fact we ended up paying them obscene bonuses to put right the harm they did.
"Unemployment in the UK runs at about 5%" and in that period
"Unemployment in the Eurozone runs at 10.2%"
This is a totally distorted comparison - Europe is not a single unit made up of different countries with different problems - Britain's 5% is part of Europe's 10.2% and not a separate comparable entity.
Europe's figure includes countries like Greece, with special problems which drive the Europe average up - they decided to stay in and attempt to solve the problem - the Brexit's want to do a runner - to where exactly?
This is typical of the distorted bullshit being peddled along with the racist garbage.
Leaving is more likely to drive up unemployment rather than to lessen it.
Britain can offer no extra jobs to those forced to come home.
"from nameless and unelected EU officials and bureaucrats"
More bullshit - you have been provided with an account of those appointed (from elected members) and how they are chosen.
They are selected exactly on the same basis the Prime minister, the cabinet and those serving on committees and enquiries are - on their ability and merit.
"Scenes over in Calais of "refugees" and "Immigrants" stoning trucks and cars and causing all sorts of chaos, shouting "F**K Britain"Scenes over in Calais of "refugees" and "Immigrants" stoning trucks and cars and causing all sorts of chaos, shouting "F**K Britain"
When there's nowhere else to go, there's always the racism to fall back on.
These are refugees and asylum seekers fleeing from wars and economic conditions we have helped to create - in our pursuit for slave-level produced good and oil and through our propping up and selling arms to despotic leaders.
We have a responsibility to these vicims of our greed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:26 PM

Sayin' it twice don't make it so, Professor.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

" Brexit is a legitimate and respectable cause."
The methods of campaigning for it are not - they are xenophobic bordering on open racism.
This campaign has even dragged fascist a fascist murderer and his supporter out of the woodwork.
"It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right."
you've had the links to the FASCISTS tactics.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:10 PM

Jim, you claimed, " the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies "

It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right.
How would you support your assertion that it is?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:11 PM

No going back is blindingly clear. Even if in a few years what was left of the country applied to join again, and every single EU government was in favour, it couldn't be to the status quo. We'd have to sign up the the euro, Schengen area, no special perks. "Out' means out.

Whereas "remain", and if next year it looked like a mistake there would be a bsolutely nothing to stop the British government deciding to get out. They wouldn't even need to have a referendum, I think, just a majority of MPs thinking that was a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM

If the Brussels bureaucracy refuses to listen to the British public's concerns with a referendum gun held at its head by its second biggest contributor, what hope can there be that it will mend its ways if we vote to remain?

Now that is what I would call a good question.

The absolute mess that the Eurozone countries are in is shameful for an international organisation that claims to bring security and prosperity for all - Ask the youngsters in Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain, Portugal and France what the EU and the Euro have done for them.

"from nameless and unelected EU officials and bureaucrats"
More bullshit - you have been provided with an account of those appointed (from elected members) and how they are chosen.

Heh Heh if that is what you think that link of yours said then you Sir are a bigger F**Kin Idiot than I thought you were. Once again you prattle on about what you think it says not what it actually does say.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

Here is what the late Tony Benn said at the last UK Referendum on Europe:

"I can think of no body outside the Kremlin that has such power without a shred of accountability,"

He warned that Britain was signing up for something that was undemocratic and run in the interest of elites.

No wonder Jom is all for "Remain".

Our ancestors shed oceans of blood to uphold and defend this country's right to govern itself, pass its own laws, raise its own taxes and — most pertinently — get rid of politicians when they abuse our trust. Why on earth should we now want to belong to a dysfunctional club that denies us these rights — a club with an imploding economy, pursuing a frankly mad policy of open borders which, if not checked, will lead to violence between the ugly left and ugly Right across Europe?

53 years we have been in this "Club" that fears free trade with the rest of the world and fears competition it says that if we stay we stand a better chance of forging deals with the world - Perhaps someone can explain therefore why in those 53 years the EU has failed to negotiate any trade deal with:

America;
China;
India;
Brazil;
Japan.

We could negotiate our own deals with any or all of those countries long before the EU could.

Vote LEAVE and let's get out and join the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

"Well we have been beavering away for the best part of 53 years in the EU trying to reform it"

I don't think we have been. All the stuff about "reforming" the UK has been about the UK trying to negotiate variou sorts of special arrangements to suit it better. I'm not aware of any attempts by politicians from the UK to improve the way the EU operates for everyone.

I I'm not sure what efforts have been nade by others to oversome "the democracy deficit". But I'm pretty sure that any such would have been liable to be seen as edging towards a more federal system, and opposed by the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:41 PM

"It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right."
Extreme right politics in the form of Xenophobia is Brexit.
Farage is a racist, Johnson is a racist, one of the leaders of the Brexit campaign has just been forced to resign because of her racist tweets - how could it fail to be influenced?
How would you support your assertion that it isn't?
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM

"Heh Heh if that is what you think that link of yours said then you Sir are a bigger F**Kin Idiot than I thought you were. Once again you prattle on about what you think it says not what it actually does say."

So much for the fancy that Jo Cox's murder might make foor more mutually respectful dialogue...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM

"Once again you prattle on about what you think it says not what it actually does say."
And once again you studiously avoid responding to what is put up and fail to offer anything yourself, leaving us with the dilemma of deciding on the written evidence or taking your word for it.
With your rack record - no contest.
Would you buy a used car from a raving, right-wing, blustering bully because he said it was a good runner?
How long are you going to keep this up - nobody believes a ****** word you say apart from yourself - Keith doesn't count in his present state of mind.
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

Mr Junkers has tonight stated that EU rules regarding the UK will NOT be reformed.

You are all voting on a false premise........Cameron lied when he said that the EU could be reformed.

So you are voting to retain what is there, a corrupt undemocratic shambles, which has ruined most of Europe and will eventually do the same for the UK.

Open your eyes and take a look at what is actually happening politically and economically all over the Eurozone.
Then go out and vote LEAVE.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM

The reforms the EU primarily needs are not "the EU rules regarding the UK". What would be good would be changes to the role of MEPs and the commissioners, and to the way legislation is initiated and agreed and modified - more clearly democratic institutions. And the arrangements about the banking system and so forth. And the way trade treaties such as TTTP get negotiated, and excessive and innappropriate secrecy.

Work in trying to get those changes has hardly started. And the prime movers in getting those kind of things won't be national governments, it will be transnational alliances of political movements.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

Listening to politicians on the referendum trail talking about "voters still making up their minds" it struck me that in this case any making up their mind is by definition unsure about the wisdom of Brexit, and this should imply rejecting it, even if they aren't sure about Remain. The point being, Brexit is irreversable, Remain is essentially provisional.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:49 PM

So, when will we hear election results?
I like the idea of the UK being part of the EU. It makes travel easier by a lot. A unified currency would also help us travelers, but I can understand why an nation might not want to adopt the Euro.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:57 PM

We should have the result well before breakfast on Friday our time. So if you go to bed late on Thursday you might get it. If they bother to put it on the news.

I suspect we pay a lot more attention to your elections than you do to ours. (Not you Joe perhaps.)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:06 PM

Joe Offer wrote: So, when will we hear election results?
I like the idea of the UK being part of the EU. It makes travel easier by a lot. A unified currency would also help us travelers, but I can understand why an nation might not want to adopt the Euro.

-Joe-
Do us a favour Joe. You might like the idea but we will have to live with the results. Do you actually understand what we who wish to leave see as the deficienties of the EU?

The results are expected early Friday morning UK time. I'm hoping for leave and I have no big fears regarding the consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:47 PM

Yes, Stanron, I actually do understand the pros and cons of the UK presence in the EU. Many Americans have far more international sophistication than you give us credit for.
Ease of travel is the primary issue that affects me directly, since I spend a lot of time in Europe and the UK. I won't take a position on other facets of the issue, because I see both sides.
BBC news comes on at midnight here in California. Sounds like I'll have a good chance of learning the outcome tonight.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:54 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

Listening to politicians on the referendum trail talking about "voters still making up their minds" it struck me that in this case any making up their mind is by definition unsure about the wisdom of Brexit, and this should imply rejecting it, even if they aren't sure about Remain. The point being, Brexit is irreversable, Remain is essentially provisional."
REALLY, do you honestly think that you will get another referendum on the subject?, if the vote is Remain, which it will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:36 PM

Do you actually understand what we ... see as the deficienties of the EU?

Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:19 PM

If we actually ever do want another referendum we can get one. The same people who pushed for this referendum will do still be there determined to get another one. There are no constitutional barriers to that, and it is entirely a matter for this country to decide, and this will always be the case under the treaties that underpin the EU.
.............
Obviously those who want to see the Leave vote succeeding will be confident that everything will go well after leaving, Stanron, otherwise they wouldn't vote that way.

Those voting to Remain will be made up not only of those who are confident in the success of the EU, but also those who do not share Stanron's optimism about the inevitable benefits of leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 01:36 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 22 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM

The reforms the EU primarily needs are not "the EU rules regarding the UK". What would be good would be changes to the role of MEPs and the commissioners, and to the way legislation is initiated and agreed and modified - more clearly democratic institutions.

Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that - today we have a chance to get out of a system that is clearly ruining Europe economically and one that you see as being undemocratic, unrepresentative and totally lacking in transparency - yet you will vote to remain - mind you having just read back through that it doesn't sound all that different to the UK Labour Party.

It would appear that you want an organisation that cannot produce a signed off audited set of accounts to oversee and control the European Banking System - rather like putting the fox in charge of the hencoop.

As for the way the EU negotiates trade deals, as I have previously detailed - they haven't negotiated any which is why the Eurozone is stagnating and under dire threat. Years of work with no result because collectively the EU is protectionist, against free trade with the world and scared stiff of competition, which is bad for us and bad for the third world.

The EU is secretive because it is hopelessly inefficient, corrupt and unaccountable.

Work in trying to get those changes has hardly started. And the prime movers in getting those kind of things won't be national governments, it will be transnational alliances of political movements.

Other than UKIP out bursts openly critical of the EU in the EU Parliament I would dearly like to see any evidence of anyone trying to get those changes of yours advanced. Political movements within the EU Parliament are powerless they have voice but no power or clout. The Commission has the power (The UK's last two Commissioners have never been elected to any office and had no experience in Government yet there they were at the heart of the EU making laws and enforcing them) not the Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 01:41 AM

So, it's 0633 in the UK on Thursday, 23 June. I listened to BBC on our local public radio station, and the BBC reported that the polls were going to open - and I expected that the polls would have been closed for quite some time by the time I was listening. In the U.S., the news agencies would have called the election, often basing their predictions on 25% of the total vote. And oftentimes, U.S. candidates will concede to their opponent after only 25% of are counted.

I found a page titled How the BBC reports EU referendum polling day. Apparently, the BBC does not get into this crazy business of shoestring predictions. They don't report election results until they have a good measure of certainty.

It may surprise some of you across the pond, but many of us Americans think that other nations do many things better than we do.

So, I can wait for the election results. I think the BBC policy is a better way of doing things.

-Joe-

Dang. I post this on what I thought was Thursday night, but it was only Wednesday. Guess I have to wait another 24 hours. Vote wisely, friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:18 AM

Come on, fellow Brits of the more sane persuasion. Get up, vote early, vote often, VOTE IN!! 🇪🇺


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:03 AM

"Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that"
Yopur bullying, blustering and fascistt behaviour and Keith's attitude to the killing of Jo Cox is as good a reason as I can think of for voting to stay - confirmation enough that Brexit is firmly in the hands of right-wing extremists.
I'm interested to see that Joe, as an administrator, should visit this thread to post and not comment on your contemptuous behaviour towards other members, particularly as he was the one to bring up childish name-calling - seems like only yesterday that threads were dropping like flies - argument is one thing, persistent abuse is another.
I really don't wish to pester Max with a formal complaint as things stand at present but enough is enough!
Please put a stop to your permanently abusive postings - if you find yourself unabe to do so of your own volition, perhaps there is someone out there who cares enough about this forum to assist you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:18 AM

Wow.

Hi Joe. There would be no passport change for US citizens visiting Europe and the UK if the UK votes to leave. There is an area of Europe called the Schengen area where EU citizens can travel without a passport. The UK is not in the Schengen area. No visa is required for a visit of less than 90 days.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

Jim, I just can't seem to bring myself to be bothered by the likes of Keith and Akenaton. I've never been able to figure out what all the fuss is about. I'm the Music editor, and I don't do moderation work in the non-music threads unless it's a topic I want to keep open like the Easter Rising and the logic thread.

Sorry, but I just don't understand what's so bad about Keith.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM

let us clarify a few points, it is a myth about peace in Europe, we had a serbian croatian conflict[geographically europe] we have had an ongoing war in cyprus[ despite being in the EU. GREECE is a member, so there has been a war between a member state and a country[with a bad human rights record] which could well become a member.. Turkey.
if Trump gets elected and decides to start a world war, or if Putin decides to do this being in europe will make no difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM

"Sorry, but I just don't understand what's so bad about Keith."
My point concerns Teribus's permanently abusing and disparaging everybody who disagrees with him in the most insulting terms - it is little short of cyber-bullying, it's unpleasant and it fouls up otherwise interesting, if occasionally fractious genuine exchanges of opinion.
You were the one who called for an end to childish name-calling - we've made an effort - this clown continues to strut and bluster.
There is nothing wrong with passionate argument - bring it on, it peppers up a discussion, but abusive insulting goes far beyond that - it's like being back in the schoolyard at playtime - the Easter Rising was a prime example.
I think most of us have the measure of what Ake and Keith stand for and are well able to deal with it (except when Keith attempts to block aspects of discussion that don't suit, as he regularly does) - but that can be dealt with too without recourse to intervention.
If it is the job of overseers to keep all us kids in line, that has to mean all of us - it only takes one spoiled brat to feck it up for the rest of us.
Sorry for involving you, didn't really know where to turn short of going to teh headmaster, but this is open and deliberate nastiness is getting beyond a joke.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM

Dick
The Serbo Croation conflict happened long before those countries became members of the E.U., Cyprus is at peace (sort of) - border disputes are not warfare.
Turkey is an interesting point - its membership has been blocked until it cleans up its human rights - a case for Europe rather than against it.
In the present situation Europe has to be regarded as a stop-gap rather than a permanent solution - I wouldn't trust any of the bastards inside or outside of the Union.
Would you seriously consider destabalising the security of Irish kids working abroad if Ireland's membership was under consideration?
In the case of Putin and Trump - in or out doesn't make the slightest difference either way, in or out, so why not take what's on offer anyway?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:44 AM

"My point concerns Teribus's permanently abusing and disparaging everybody who disagrees with him in the most insulting terms"

Ah Jom perhaps you could explain to everyone why it would appear in your eyes perfectly acceptable on this forum for you to be allowed to call someone a "loutish boor" and to fling insults about right, left and centre, then promptly demand that name calling should be stopped.

As I said previously you are very good at dishing it out but not very good at taking it.

I have long happened to think that you are a complete and utter f**kin idiot and have pointed out on numerous occasions the reasons why I think so.

I generally tend to treat folks as they treat me.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM

"I generally tend to treat folks as they treat me."
Nobody other than you consistently talks down to people in the sneary way that you do "Ah Jom ".
My "loutsh boor" was a direct reference to your behaviour in an attempt to stop it, which, it is obvious you have no intention of doing
"I have long happened to think that you are a complete and utter f**kin idiot"
You really have no control of your behaviour - do you
As far as I am concerned your out-of-control arrogance is a deliberate attempt to wreck threads.
You have made my point perfectly - thanks for that at least!
Your behaviour has no place on a public forum - not my decision, of course.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:40 AM

"Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that - today we have a chance to get out of a system that is clearly ruining Europe economically and one that you see as being undemocratic, unrepresentative and totally lacking in transparent"

No we aren"t. Everything you say there is also true of the system we are stuck inside the UK, and it will probably get a lot worse if we leave the EU.

Both systems need reform, and can be reformed.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM

right or wrong, win or lose... the one most prominent characteristic of this campaign as I've seen it,
is the culture of arrogance and condescension amongst the LEAVE leadership.....????? 😣

Cameron may be an old etonian tory toff..
but at least he displays a reasonable degree of humility and humane likability.....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:54 AM

Not true in any respect, Schweik, I am afraid to say.

Serbia nor Croatia are members of the EU. As for Cyprus, there is no "war". The island is partitioned between the Cypriot Republic, which is a member of EU, and a statelet in North Cyprus which is not, and which is not recognised by anyone, except Turkey, which is of course not in the EU.

The very fact that Turkey recognises North Cyprus is a guarantee that, so long as that is the case, it will not be given EU membership, even if all the other conditions it would have to satisfy were met - which is a very long way from happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM

After watching the lunchtime news..

how's the overnight flooding in London & South East likely to affect polling, and announcement of a result...???


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

I think quite a lot of the stuff you talk about there, Joe, would be illegal here. So long as any of the polling stations are open, it's against the law for anyone to report on exit polls or what any local counts might show.

Your situation where candidates might concede in the light of what's happened in the East before people in California or Hawaii have voted would be quite impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:21 AM

"the one most prominent characteristic of this campaign...."
Almost Pfr
Win or lose, this campaign will be remembered for the murder of a gentle, dedicated and moderate politician and the rising tide of xenophobic hatred generated by those who wish to leave.
I've just been somewhat gobsmacked to learn that this is only the third nation-wide referendum ever to be held in British history - whatever happened to "by the people"?
They're as regular as the dawn chorus here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:39 AM

"...by the people" was not a British quote, tho, Jim; it was Abe Lincoln, you will remember. Referenda have only very recently been used here in UK. Previously they were not part of our system: the govt claimed a mandate from their parliamentary majority; and in extreme cases, if defeated in a vote in parliament as with R MacDonald in the 30s, would settle controversies by resigning & "going to the people", ie calling an election. Referenda, aka plebiscites, were traditionally mistrusted as the means by which such continental rulers as Louis-Philippe, Bismarck, et al, would purport to have mandates, which were never regarded here as very trustworthy.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM

Let us know when you've voted, y'all!

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:47 AM

I voted several hours ago. A lady behind the desk said they had had a good turn out. A lot better than the local council elections a month or so ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM

My mum is the same age as MGM·Lion [a month older actually]..

She prides herself on never having missed an election, except for the recent Police and Crime Commissioner Elections,
as she was quite ill with bronchitis & confusion since January.

I'm about to catch a train to spend the afternoon with her.
The plan being if the weather is not too bad, we'll try and walk the 1/4 mile or so to the polling station.

She lives in an extremely conservative part of SW England, so knows her vote has been futile for most of her life,
But she believes voting to be her privilege and duty...

Mum jokes about the tories dragging their elder voters from their death beds on polling days..

Must remember her reading glasses so she doesn't put her "X" in the wrong box....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM

A moment of light-heartedness: I read an account of some of the polling stations being closed because of flooding. And then, a few paragraphs later and apparently by accident, they said the result would depend upon the floating voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:21 AM

"was not a British quote, tho, Jim; it was Abe Lincoln,"
I do know that Mike - I thought it applied to Britain in principle too - maybe not!!
I have no doubt whatever referenda were mistrusted by them upstairs - wonder what would happen in Britain if the held a referendum on whether to make them part of the system!!!
They managed to to put Ireland somewhere into the latter half of the 20th century, regarding homosexuality a couple of years ago - some way to go yet and who knows, maybe we will live long enough to see one make a difference regarding pregnancy termination (one the bulldog-grip of the church is loosened, of course).
If they are untrustworthy, why is H.M.G. holding one on such an important issue today, one wonders!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

I've never understood why they prefer a X to a tick. In most situations a X indicates you are rejecting something, whereas a tick means you support it.

In practice I believe the practice is to accept a tick as an indication you are in favour. But I wouldn't chance it, because officially it's against the rules.

At least we don't have to worry about hanging chads...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:56 AM

"At least we don't have to worry about hanging chads..."
?????
Chads used to be a famous speedway team in Liverpool when I was very young - sure you don't mean 'chavs'?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM

"Everything you say there is also true of the system we are stuck inside the UK, and it will probably get a lot worse if we leave the EU.

Both systems need reform, and can be reformed."


If that is the case then it will be quicker and easier to fix our system on our own away from meddling from 27 other opinions and suggestions as to what needs doing and the best way of doing it. Like their barmy idea with the Euro - one size most certainly does not fit all - even the German Banker who came up with the idea stated quite clearly that the single currency HAD TO BE PRECEDED by full political union otherwise it would not work - he was right the Eurozone is in dire trouble.

Another reason for voting leave if you actually believe what you write in your posts to this forum. The UK system CAN be fixed by political action, the entire system is elected - for political action to do the same in the EU there has to be massive simultaneous conversion in 28 countries to get the European Council thinking along the same lines. That has to coincide with the end of a Commission so the right candidates are put forward and the right President of the Commission is chosen. Timings and reality mean that it will never happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:24 AM

I don't know how far the kind of reforms needed have to be be agreed by all governments, or just by a majority of MEPs, and nor do you. I would suspect that in respect of some significaant aspects the latter is the case.

Any way there's no point in arguing about this kind of stuff at this point. My essential point is that the "reforms" Cameron has been unable to get just were totally irrelevant to what is actually needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:04 PM

"I don't know how far the kind of reforms needed have to be be agreed by all governments, or just by a majority of MEPs, and nor do you. I would suspect that in respect of some significant aspects the latter is the case."

I am very surprised that you are so completely unaware of the limitation of power of the European Parliament. You speak as though they can alter how the EU is run - simply put they cannot as they have little say in how it is run:

"Neither the Parliament nor the Council have the power of legislative initiative. In Community matters, this is a power uniquely reserved for the European Commission (the executive). Therefore, while Parliament can amend and reject legislation, to make a proposal for legislation, it needs the Commission to draft a bill before anything can become law

Exactly the opposite is how the Westminster Parliament is run with Bills being introduced by elected members of the Commons, or very occasionally by sitting Lords, then after having been debated and discussed through three cycles in both Commons and Lords the Bill is then passed to the Civil Service to be codified, formally drawn up and sent to receive Royal Assent where upon it becomes law.

Are the EU Commission's 28 members "elected" MEPs - NO THEY ARE NOT - All 28 are nominees put forward by their respective Governments (The last two put forward by the UK have never been elected to any political office in their lives) The Parliament gets to elect the President of the Commission from a list given them by the European Council (If that list has only one candidate then there is no choice at all) The European Parliament cannot object to or refuse any single candidate nominated and put forward by his/her Government, they can only vote on the Commission as a body - again no real power, they are there to rubber stamp the proceedings, nothing more.

Any reform has to be agreed by all Governments who then somehow have to convince the Commission, whose sworn task it is to look towards what is beneficial to the Community (i.e. Themselves), to introduce the reform Bill, the MEPs only get to look at it after it has been written.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

it will soon be over my prediction is 54 percent for remain


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM

There's a piece that played on National Public Radio in the US titled Britain's 'Brexit' Vote Has Echoes Of The U.S. Presidential Race. An excerpt:
    The key politicians championing these arguments on either side of the Atlantic are Nigel Farage of the nationalist U.K. Independence Party and Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee. Trump has talked about banning Muslims from entering the U.S. and about Mexican "rapists" crossing the border. Last week, Farage unveiled a billboard of a photo of a line of hundreds of refugees. "Breaking Point," the billboard read.

    "I'd put them in the same box," said Elizabeth Evans, a county councilor with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, chatting on the street one afternoon in Aberystwyth, a small city on the Welsh coast. Evans says Farage, like Trump, is a charismatic populist who has tapped into public frustration.


I get the impression from discussion here that it's not only the UKIP that is promoting "Brexit." I've heard all the arguments, but it's hard to tell from here who's supporting "Brexit," and who's supporting "Bremain."

I was born in 1948, and I can remember a time when people in the U.S. thought that periodic wars in Europe were inevitable. I lived in Berlin in 1972-73 - I guess you could say I was surrounded by the Iron Curtain for two years, but I did get a chance to leave Berlin 20 times in the 20 months I was there, and I saw a lot of Europe. My feeling at the time was that periodic European war was still inevitable.

I didn't return to Europe until I retired in 1999, and I've visited Europe a couple of weeks or more every year since then. As the EU came to be, I've seen a lot of improvements, especially in the poorer countries. Wealthier EU nations may resent the money being spent in Ireland and Spain and Greece and other nations; but as an outsider, I can see how much it adds to the stability and security of Europe. I've also been amazed at how easy it is for Europeans to work in multiple countries. As a traveler, I've found the Euro very helpful, and I've found it annoying that I can't use Euros in the UK.

And through the years, it has seemed to me that the EU has taken wiser stands on international issues than the U.S. has.

In many ways, the EU is an ideal that is far from being completely fulfilled - but while the EU exists, the dream can still exist. I don't know that the withdrawal of the UK will mean the end of the EU, but it's certainly a deadly blow.

So, I can see many shortcomings of the EU, and I understand the frustration with the bureaucracy and immigration and all; but I'd hate to see the EU collapse. I'm much rather see the UK put its energy into fixing what's wrong with the EU.

I'm sure it's true that as a foreigner, I have an idealized view of the EU, but maybe it's not a bad idea to dream of ideals and work to achieve them.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM

A European Commissioner is a member of the 28-member European Commission. Each Member within the Commission holds a specific portfolio, and the Commission is led by thePresident of the European Commission. In simple terms they are the equivalent of national ministers
Each Commissioner is first nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President, although the President holds little practical power to force a change in candidate. .

The more capable the candidate is, the more likely the Commission President will assign them a powerful portfolio, the distribution of which is entirely at his discretion. The President's team is then subject to hearings at the European Parliament which will question them and then vote on their suitability as a whole. If members of the team are found to be inappropriate, the President must then reshuffle the team or request a new candidate from the member state or risk the whole Commission being voted down. As Parliament cannot vote against individual Commissioners there is usually a compromise whereby the worst candidates are removed but minor objections are put aside so the Commission can take office. Once the team is approved by parliament, it is formally put into office by the European Council.
It should be noted however that although Members of the Commission are allocated between member-states they do not represent their states; instead they are supposed to act in European interests.
Normally a member-state will nominate someone of the same political party as that which forms the government of the day. There are exceptions such as Member of the Commission Burke (of Fine Gael) was nominated by Taoiseach Haughey (of Fianna Fáil), or where larger states had two seats, they often went to the two major parties such as in the United Kingdom.
In addition to its role in approving a new Commission, the European Parliament has the power at any time to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. This requires a vote that makes up at least two-thirds of those voting and a majority of the total membership of the Parliament. While it has never used this power, it threatened to use it against the Commission headed by Jacques Santer in 1999 over allegations of corruption. In response, the Santer Commission resigneden masse of its own accord, the only time a Commission has done so.
....... European Parliament president Jerzy Buzek proposed in 2010 that Commissioners be directly elected, by member states placing their candidate at the top of their voting lists in European elections. That would give them individually, and the body as a whole, a democratic mandate.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
The European commission is little different than the manner in which the British Parliamentary system is structured; the commissioners are appointed by the member state just as the cabinet is appointed by the Prime Minister.
The main difference is that the Commission is answerable to the Union as a whole so they cannot impose any particular political party agenda.
Academic anyway, Teribus's 'Brave New World' would have us all answerable to the State (Classic Fascism by definition) , even above the interests of the individuals.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:01 PM

The MEPs has to approve the candidate for President nominated by the European Council made up of heads of government. It could refuse to approve them.

That is a significant power, if exercised in an effective power. Initiating legislation is by no means the only significant way of exerting power. After all, very little of the legislation in the House of Commons is actually initiated by the members as a whole - it is handed down by the government, and processed through parliament by it's agents. The power to approve and reject legislation is a very significant power.

The thing is, if the vote is Out, this isn't anything to do with us. If it is Remain, it becomes significant. There'll be problems ahead. But making the system we've got here even as much as it is didn't come easy.

Often enough what matters isn't the formal structure, it's how it gets used.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM

If the UK exits the EU, how easy or how difficult will it be for UK musicians to perform in Europe? It's expensive and complicated for European musicians to get a visa to perform in the U.S., although U.S. musicians don't seem to have that much difficulty performing in the UK and Europe.

It seems like it's more difficult for U.S. musicians to perform in Canada, than it is for them to perform in Europe. That may be just a matter of perception. U.S. musicians may want to go to Canada to do a gig or two because it's so easy to travel there, but they resent having to get a work permit. It may be just as hard to get a work permit to perform in Europe, but Americans don't go to Europe for just one or two gigs.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM

answerable to the State (Classic Fascism by definition)
.,,.
Classic Socialism likewise – that point on the horseshoe where the L/R extremes meet!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:42 PM

Joe says:

If the UK exits the EU, how easy or how difficult will it be for UK musicians to perform in Europe?

Impossible to know. What sort of Visa requirements might be imposed by either size is an utter unknown. Those on the 'Leave' side, may claim that everything will be fine, but they're only guessing...

McGrath says:

I've never understood why they prefer a X to a tick. In most situations a X indicates you are rejecting something, whereas a tick means you support it.

I assume that it goes back to the time when an 'X' was used by the illiterate to show assent to a written document. Whether that predates it's use for an answer being wrong, I know not.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

I don't see why there should be any difference so far as the US and the EU are concerned. The US and all EU members will still have precisely the same status relative to each other, whatever that is.

If Britain ceases to be a EU member that would no longer be the case. Some new arrangement would need to be worked out. And the same would go for UK citizens in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

Or possibly:

'X marks the spot'


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:48 PM

You had already posted that screed a couple of hours ago, Jim. Is your memory playing trick - or your WP?
    Mudcat has been double-posting a lot lately. I deleted quadruplet posts earlier today. I'll delete Jim's duplicate.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

I don't know why, but all my life, it has been difficult for me to make a tick mark and fit it into a box. I can mark a box with an "x" very easily, but tick marks confound me. I don't know if it's left-handedness or a basic lack of coordination - I plead guilty to both. I can type and I can print, but I have difficulty with cursive writing. Maybe there's a tie to my tick mark disability.

Occasionally, I have had papers and ballots and questionnaires returned to me for correction because I used "x" instead of tick marks.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:23 PM

If LEAVE win.. where will the first concentration camps be situated...???

.. just asking because thee's a big empty filed down the road from my mum's house
that's been on the market for ages.......

...and my mum is very friendly and chatty and would be down there making tea and sandwiches for all the interned foreigners and dissidents... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM

Looks like this should be a good place to get results:


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:36 PM

Wow. 4:32 am. 72% Turnout. 52% leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:39 PM

Don't at all see your point, pfr [yes, I know it was meant ironically & as a joke, but even so]. There was a time, you know, tho nobody here seems to recall it, before we ever joined the unmentionable institution under consideration; during which benighted Dark Age I fail to recall any facilities wherein any alien who happened to have had the temerity to set foot on these shores might be interned or incarcerated (apart, obviously, from the emergency regulations in force during WWii). So, leaving aside considerations of sarcasm and jocularity, what was your point precisely?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:46 AM

Well, it looks like "leave" has won at 51.8%.

A quote I came across: Would be a hell of a thing if this ends with a united Ireland and independent Scotland in the EU and a diminished England outside of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:59 AM

1: The people of Northern Ireland have to want a united Ireland before there is any referendum on any change. What any political party says on the matter is irrelevant.

2: The question before the Scots remains the same as it did in 2014 when they said NO to independence. Scotland's biggest trading partner will still be England {80% of Scotland's trade}, there is no short term prospect of a massive hike in the price of oil, Scotland will have to apply for membership of the EU and they will have no interim currency but under current EU rules they would ultimately have to take on the Euro.

Perhaps DMcG will have some comment on people accepting the democratic will of the people, he certainly had fairly definite views on that when he thought that the vote would be to Remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:05 AM

So what's your view on the fact that just 24% of registered electors put a cross next to a Tory candidate in the 2015 general election?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:10 AM

YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom.   Congratulations to the Brexit voters here.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:58 AM

YES !!!! ............ er................. NO !!!!

Yesterday I got 1.30 Euro to the pound, today you can get 1.24 Euro to the pound.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:00 AM

"The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom"
Oh dear - the beast has risen.
The racist nature of the Out campaign and the hairline gap between the yes and no vote gives cause for immediate alarm, certainly not celebration for anybody - who on earth can be happy with a Britain split right down the middle?
A divided and disillusioned Germany gave birth to the Nazi Party - lets hope somebody can get that nice Mr Farrage and Boris the Braindead into their straitjackets before they can do any real damage.
All we need is Trump the Trumpeter in the White House and the rightist nutters will have their 'three-of-a-kind.
"Freedom"....... you read like a bad phrase from Game of Thrones'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM

Obviously that 24% was enough to win the number of Parliamentary seats required - that is our system and had it been a Labour Government returned by the same margin you would have had no problem with it. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth about proportional representation is just so much "magpie chatter" another referendum in 2011 put paid to that system being introduced by two votes to one.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:08 AM

Now down to 1.23 Euro to the pound


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM


Perhaps DMcG will have some comment on people accepting the democratic will of the people, he certainly had fairly definite views on that when he thought that the vote would be to Remain


Ok, let's take the bits of that one by one.

a) I do accept the democratic will of the people.

b) I said that I didn't think Brexiters would stop campaigning to exit the EU is we voted in, especially if the margin was narrow. I still think that would have been the case, because it doesn't need anyone else's agreement to write newspaper articles or whatever. And, as McGrath pointed out, even if we had voted in there was always the possibility of another vote in ten, or twenty or forty years. The reverse doesn't apply: no-one sees a way back into the EU except with the agreement with every other member, and that's not going to happen in any way I can imagine.

b) I never said I thought Remain would win.   Yet again, Teribus, you can't sort out 'would' and 'could'. I hoped it would, certainly. I thought it could, definitely.

c) My other main comment was that I thought we should listen to the experts who were predicting a crash. So far, sterling has fallen to the lowest level since 1985 and there was a drop in the FSTE of over £100bn dollars in minutes. Ok, it may bounce back over the next few days, or it may not. Only time will tell on that one.

d) Irrespective of all that, we have an obligation to make the best of where we are now.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:22 AM

Apologies for "£100billion dollars". I didn't mean to mix currencies like that. Perhaps I should just paste this from the Telegraph:

£137bn wiped off UK stocks within minutes

The FTSE 100 is now down 8.3pc, meaning £137bn has been wiped off UK blue chip stocks within minutes of markets opening this morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:57 AM

Hi

<" YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom.   Congratulations to the Brexit voters here.">

I don't often agree with Ake's views but today I do. The people have spoken and perhaps all parties will note the strength of feeling especially in the North West.

Cameron's gone and Our MP Osborne has been conspicuous by his absence since his wild threats.

Don't expect quick change and there will be bumps on the way.

Cheers

Mikel2




a


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM

" I never said I thought Remain would win."

Doesn't wash DMcG you commented on Leave voters accepting a decision to Remain - under such circumstances which side has won the referendum? My powers of deduction tend towards a win for Remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:12 AM

Hi

Just got 126.4 Euros to pound. Had to shop around a bit.

Cheers MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM

"Classic Socialism likewise – that point on the horseshoe where the L/R extremes meet! "
One ogf the great myths Mike.
Socialism is based on using the state to abolish ("wither away") the state - read Lenin's State and Revolution (a pamphlet on the basic tenets of Socialism in regard to the state).
The difference between Socialism proper and Syndicalism is that the former sees the state as temporary while that latter (impractically in my view) wished to abolish the state from the start.
Fascism it a world where all are subservient to a permanent state - Teribus's arguments being a fine example.
The abandonment of those tenets led to the Stalins andd Ceaușescus, just as the abandonment of the principals of democracy have led to the inequalities and injustices of Capitalism
You are a one for clichés, aren't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:29 AM

" I never said I thought Remain would win."

Doesn't wash DMcG you commented on Leave voters accepting a decision to Remain - under such circumstances which side has won the referendum? My powers of deduction tend towards a win for Remain.


As I said, I had a preference - indeed a strong preference - for Remain to win. That is a totally different thing to "thinking it will win". I have a strong preference for winning the lottery as well.. and knowing I could ... and hoping I will ...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM

Oh well, at lest Donald Trump is happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:37 AM

I'm interested MikeL you say you got 126.4 to the pound was that before or after commission where did you get that price.

The figures I gave were after commission.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM

"YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom."

The road to freedom? Good god man.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM

"YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom."

The road to freedom? Good god man.


Yes, God is indeed good.

The result is also good, and unlike the results of the general election clearly shows the will of the majority of those who felt strongly enough (either way) to express a vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

the abandonment of the principals of democracy have led to the inequalities and injustices of Capitalism
You are a one for clichés, aren't you?

.,,.

Does anyone else find this, addressed to me from Jim, as hilariously ironic [or ironically hilarious] as I do?

As usual, the gr8 democrats, the Shaws & Carrolls et al, are demonstrating their enormous ❤❤❤ for democracy -- just as long as the δεμος do exactly what said Carrolls & Shaws think they should... Talk about bad losers [in US I believe you say 'sore losers']. And what on earth has Mr Shaw's niggling non-point about the %·age demographic of the last General Election have to do with the matter in ☛, does he think?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:38 AM

A good result for the old white folk who had a free education, have left the younger generations with debt, denied the, the right to move between 27 countries freely, study and work in them; entire futures have been denied. A good result for xenophobes, climate change deniers and those who are happy to let workers rights slip further back towards those of the Victorians.

The old white people have swapped one elite for another, rejected equality for all citizens, embraced austerity and have also green-lit the fracture of the union. Worst of all, they have sold the younger generations again, against the wishes of younger people in an act of myopic selfishness.

Well done.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

"Does anyone else find this, addressed to me from Jim, as hilariously ironic [or ironically hilarious] as I do?"
Hilarious but unanswerable apparently Mike as these things usually are.
"As usual, the gr8 democrats, the Shaws & Carrolls et al, are demonstrating their enormous ❤❤❤ for democracy"
You mean as opposed to those who regard the domain of the better off, the priveleged and those of the right colour and religious persuasion - no question of that.
This campaign was based on hatred an Xenophobia - the economic effects were apparent within hours of the result being announced.
Just been listening to an economist predicting on the likelihood of countries investing in Britain now looking elsewhere to re-invest in more stable economies.
"Yes, God is indeed good."
I do wish that these Christians extended their 'Christianity' as far as the consequences that this "good" result will most certainly have on human beings in trouble, particularly the refugees fleeing from poverty in countries that the wealthy west has helped to create by its constant search for chap goods and fuel.
Or the asylum seekers that will be returned to war zones in wars wars we have helped to create by our actions and inaction.
This whole campaign has been an indication that the world is swinging sharply to the extreme right - as if some of us didn't know it already.
Jo Cox was preparing a report on right wing extremism in Britain at the time of her death - following her murder, the right-wing websites were buzzing with praise for her "heroic" murderer.
The right-wing inhumanity has shown itself in some of the arguments here - some I would expect, others I find disappointing being from people who I would have thought, should know better considering their undoubted knowledge of the effects of right wing extremism on humanity.
Happy to put up with your jibes Mike, knowing your soft spot for the nearest thing Britain ever had for a Fascist prime minister.
Now - where did I put my "grumpy 'democratic' leftie" tee-shirt - mustn't get a chill in my "liberal bleeding heart".
You are as much a stereotype as your less-educated friends - Golding's 'Flies" got it just about right.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

A good result?

Sterling tanks worse than 1985.

Already a backtrack on pledge to divert funds to NHS.

Young lose chances to work abroad.

Politics of lies, division, and racism prevails.

Majority rule does not guarantee truth, justice or wisdom. Sure, out had a majority. But more people voted on each side than elected the PM and now where is control and democracy if he is replaced by an unelected heir apparent Tory leader?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

Fascinating to watch the fallout of this result on the news.
Cameron resigned, talk of a new Scottish independence referendum and a border poll on Irish unity, both of whom produced significant majorities to remain.
What has also emerged was that this extremely slim majority was down to how the soft-underbelly of England voted, the South-East.-
All-in-all, we have a possibility of the break-up of The United Kingdom and a divided Britain
Johnson talks about there being no hurry to leave until Britain re-negotiates its contracts with its trading partners - now that will be interesting.
Great result indeed - and it's only just turned one o'clock!.!!!
Racist, xenophobic blind stupidity - as was stated quite clearly by a passing tradesman on the streets of London - though the ones with the posh voices tended to speak differently
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:35 AM

the UK is on the road to freedom.

Give it a few years, Ake - and you'll be talking out of the other side of your mouth.

The Trumpistas have infected the British Isles.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 AM

Its only good news for the 1%.
BBC 1 was hilarious in their CNNesque coverage.
False feelings about heritage and the days of yore probably skewed the vote.
Your new Independence day will bear more similarity to the movie with aliens making silent back room deals regarding trade with a handful of British insiders.

Please do not blame each other. It was the American Wall Street that greedily started this desperation and feeling of powerlessness.

No matter what the vote revealed, this is all part of the blowback from financial theft by billionaires 10 years ago.

There is more than enough "fear of the other" to destabilize things for the next 10 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:50 AM

... and just as my wife was starting to enjoy watching football,
now she is is very perplexed, depressed and ashamed to be Welsh...!!! 😢


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:53 AM

Not exactly a 'jibe', Jim. Just amused by your rehearsal of a concept which, however accurate, was a manifest cliché, followed by a denunciation of my use of what you chose to observe as clichés. On general topic, we shall obviously differ — nothing new there!

Best regards anyhow. By train of thought - Hope the N&Q article on "Married in Green" that I sent you arrived safely.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:54 AM

Less of the "old white folk" please. Plenty of us voted to stay in.

Trump's enthusiastic response is embarrassing for most Brexiters , I imagine. No doubt Putin will be next, and Mugabe after that. I suppose people can't help their friends.

Let's all hope the worst fears of the In campaign will not come to pass. The plummeting value of the pound is not too encouraging in that direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:06 AM

" Hope the N&Q article on "Married in Green" that I sent you arrived safely."
Sorry Mike - yes, got it this morning - it lay on an absent neighbors doormat for a couple of days.
Many thanks - will be in touch -
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:17 AM

"The Trumpistas have infected the British Isles."

No Greg, I think you'll find it's The Murdochistas.

And as one of the 'Old White People', Stu, I did no such thing - I, and the vast majority of my friends, voted 'Remain'. We didn't all fall for the jingoistic, slogan-driven bullshite of the 'Leave' campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:22 AM

I voted LEAVE and am at peace with that decision.

As for jingoistic, slogan driven bullshit, it seems to me ALL politicians were very much involved - of whatever hue.

Along with the media, nobody can really be proud of their conduct during the campaigns.

I'm quite even-handed, I dislike ALL politicians unless they prove they're actually not self-serving, lying bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

I see the finance house Morgan Stanley have announced they are moving 2000 jobs to Germany or Ireland.

Connected to yesterdays referendum result ??


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:44 AM

According to The Independent online That 'fact' about Morgan Stanley has been rebutted.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:47 AM

I voted leave too.
Yes it will hurt. So does a hard session in the gym. You still do it because you know you will be better off as a result.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:48 AM

"I dislike ALL politicians unless they prove they're actually not self-serving, lying bastards."

Well, you fell for their bullshit, lies and fear peddling. You think Farage is self-serving and lying?

Apparently we're not getting the £340 million for the NHS and are no longer the world's 5th largest economy as France leapfrogged us as the pound tanked.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:00 AM

"That 'fact' about Morgan Stanley has been rebutted."
No it hasn't - read what it says.
It says there are no official plans to move or no immediate plans to make changes - the world of difference.
This type of reaction will not be the last.
Apparently, one of the problems ids that once things are in place, British firms will no longer have free passage across Europe with their goods and, apart from the delays, application for permission to cross will become a major issue.
As predicted, this will set the peace process in Ireland back decades, already they are planning to re-erect the border posts.
I've been listening to interviews with Irish citizens living in England - one tearful lady told how she has seen Britain swing to rapidly to the right, particularly on the question of race describing how she was constantly been told about "these bloody immigrants".
When she pointed out that she was an immigrant, the response was "Ah, but you're different" - "White" she presumed they meant.
Her son, who was born in England, was "Feckin' off to Germany - there's no future here".   
On the other hand, an Englishman (extremely lumpen-sounding) man living in Donegal said he had voted 'Leave' because "we want our freedom back'.
I have little doubt that there those who will not be bothered at what's happening to England (I exclude Scotland - they seem to be considering a way back to Europe for themselves.
I feel both worried, for my friends and family, and more than a little ashamed that the people I lived among for all of my life, my people, should have allowed England to sink to this level.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:01 AM

Stu wrote: Apparently we're not getting the £340 million for the NHS and are no longer the world's 5th largest economy as France leapfrogged us as the pound tanked.
I remeember when we were the worlds fourth largest economy. Decades of EU membership resulted in a downward slip. Perhaps now that downward slip is ended.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Ed.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM

Yes it will hurt. So does a hard session in the gym.

Wow! That is possibly the worst analogy I have ever heard. Do you honestly really mean that??? Do you actually understand what Brexit might mean?

You still do it because you know you will be better off as a result.

You don't know that you'll be better off as a result of Brexit. Hope, fair enough. Know? Sorry but you don't have a crystal ball. And to go back to your pathetic analogy, I bet Kamrul Hassan's family wouldn't agree....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM

Raggytash - 24 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

I see the finance house Morgan Stanley have announced they are moving 2000 jobs to Germany or Ireland.


The bit in bold there is the statement that has been rebutted by Morgan Stanley saying that "there are no official plans to move or no immediate plans to make changes".

"Apparently, one of the problems is that once things are in place, British firms will no longer have free passage across Europe with their goods and, apart from the delays, application for permission to cross will become a major issue."

Some massive and extremely pessimistic assumptions there on the part of Jim Carroll all of them highly improbable and completely baseless. Common sense would tell any sentient human being that as the EU does more trade with us than we do with them there most certainly will be some sort of free trade agreement struck between the EU and the UK. If Jim Carroll actually believed for one second that what he had written was correct then the harm to the economy of the Republic of Ireland would be immense.

According to Article 50 the UK will remain part of the EU for at least the next two-and-a-half, possibly three years, during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties.

What will be interesting to see over the next few months is what will happen in the EU member states that are markedly more Eurosceptical than the UK - one prediction in the press today is that the EU and the Eurozone have got five years at most to turn things round or go to the wall. There was little or no prospect of change in the EU as of the 22nd June 2016 - completely different ball game now that their second largest net contributor has decided to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:30 AM

Hi Raggy

I got my Euros at our local post office. A small village sub office.

I have been buying my foreign currency there for some years now and usually get a good deal.

Cheers Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM

"Good god man" Didn't used to believe in "God", but I do now and he voted Brexit....:0)......as all the pissy "liberals" say .. "I'm really loving this!"

Farage for Pope!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

Surely we've had more than enough predictions of what Brexit would mean. Isn't it time perhaps we stopped making them, and sat back to see what will actually happen?

So far developments which were predicted and which have happened amount to the pound taking a nosedive, the Prime Minister announcing his resignation, and Nicola Sturgeon initiating plans for an independence referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

Is NATO next?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:09 PM

Conversation in an Asian fabric shop in Edinburgh today, between the Pakistani proprietor and a Scottish Muslim cleric: since only other part of the UK to vote as strongly for the EU as Scotland did was London, how about we keep London as a sort of Gibraltar when we leave the UK?

I think most of us wouldn't even mind letting London be the capital. The knuckle-draggers in between would be happier with Belfast for a capital anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:14 PM

"According to Article 50"

Ha! No-one's got the balls to press the button. Redwood was on this morning suggesting it will never have to be pressed.


"Farage for Pope!!!"

Yeah, you must be really proud of him. Congratulations.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

"The bit in bold there is the statement that has been rebutted by Morgan Stanley"
Doublspeak
"Some massive and extremely pessimistic assumptions there "
Nope - they've been discussing placing the borders back in place all day here.
The closure of borders to British firms has been a topic of discussion here all day,
Why should British firms have free passage over foreign countries - it has just removed itself from the only reason it has been able to.
"during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties."
Who says and why should countries assist a competitor?
The only reason for this decision to have been pushed through by the wealthy and privileged bit of Little England is the one touted by the Brexits from day one - to get rid of Johnny Foreigner.
I see you fail to commnt on the immediate damage done already - resignation of head of state, threat to peace process, possible break-up of Britain, immediate economic crash, (27 to the tune of 137bn.....
Sneak past the awkward bits, as usual
It's turned out to be a catastrophe on the first day - what can happen in a week, never mind two years?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM

A UK exit from NATO? Don't think so.

Hopefully the EU Army is a dead duck as far as the British are concerned, so far less chance for it to be used to undermine NATO which has to-date been one of the most effective military alliances the world has ever seen.

It remains to be seen if the Scottish electorate get another independence referendum - The SNP may well put preparations for one in train, whether it comes off or not is another thing entirely. Sturgeon must be cursing at present, pressure for a second "indy" referendum from all those people who flocked to join the SNP in the wake of the last one will be immense. The reality however is that all those awkward questions raised in the 2014 campaign are still there only in 2016 the offshore oil & gas industry is on its bones and the oil price is at bargain basement level with little or no sign of it picking up. Go for an independence referendum now and the SNP will lose it - Sturgeon knows that.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM

NBC got up a playliat for the Brexit:

The party's over


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:37 PM

"Why should British firms have free passage over foreign countries - it has just removed itself from the only reason it has been able to.
"during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties."
Who says and why should countries assist a competitor?"


BECAUSE THEY SELL MORE TO US THAN WE SELL TO THEM.

If they do as you suggest they primarily harm themselves and I do not know if you have checked up lately but the Eurozone is not in all that great a shape. Put up trade tariffs and they cut both ways. How does the bulk of Irish exports get to Europe? What percentage of Irish EU trade is with the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:41 PM

"damage done already - resignation of head of state"
.,,.
What! The Queen has abdicated? Away you. It's only the head of Government, who has said he will hand over to someone else within 3 months.

Sorry if this appears pedantic; but alarmist talk is the last thing anyone needs imo.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: olddude
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM

Wow, did you guys tank my stocks here in the states.. But I still love ya.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:57 PM

Trump's enthusiastic response is embarrassing for most Brexiters

Not at all - they're two sides of the same coin.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

As this referendum demonstrated, when it comes to the crunch, people are sometimes in fact less likely to put economic issues first, rather than other things. I can see that applying in a Scottish referendum. Scotland voted fairly decisively for Remain, more so than England voted for Brexit, and now the English choice is to be imposed on them.

That's the kind of thing that can marginalize the economic arguments. "No way!"

David Cammeron must bitterly regret he rejected out of hand the call by politicians in the rest of the UK that the decision to get out would only apply if all four partners voted for it. If he'd accepted that he'd be home safe, with Scotland and Northern Ireland on his side.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

"Away you. It's only the head of Government, "
Semantics Mike - you know very well what I mean - same on you
Maybe I should have said the elected head of Britain as destinct from the figurehead - there, does that make it any better?
I usually expect this level of argument from Teribus and the like!!
"BECAUSE THEY SELL MORE TO US THAN WE SELL TO THEM."
And they can equally buy and sell elsewhere.
Free passage across Europe came with membership of the Union and will disappear with Britain's resignation - or do you suggest that European countries will open their borders to everybody they buy from and sell to - give us a break - not even you.....
No country ig going to give free passage to business of a foreign power which are competitors of thei home grown ones - are you maD?
The question of Britain now facing closed borders has been discussed all day - do you have any examples of contrary discussion taking place
I don't know why I bother to ask - just another make-it-up as-you-go-along kite flyings.
"If they do as you suggest they primarily harm themselves "
No they won't, why should they
Ireland was discussing the possible benefits to firms who would pick up the trade Britain has walked away from by leaving.
One of the panic issues being discussed at the moment is the possible damage done to the economy of Northern Ireland and the need for a border referendum.
Nicola Sturgeon has just demanded a fresh referendum on Scotish Independence.
Have just watched Johnson strutting his stuff and looking for all the world like a Prime Minister in waiting and Farrage talking about what "we" have to do to get Britain back on its feet.
I don't think I have seen a day where a single piece of news has taken up so much attention since 9-11
You rightist clowns have a lot to answer for.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

So what exactly is the purpose of Farrage and UKIP now..???

surely they can close up shop and bugger off on an extended holiday...

.. of course if he chooses a European destination, he'll have to make certain he can still use
a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC).....????? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

"The bit in bold there is the statement that has been rebutted by Morgan Stanley"
Doublspeak
"Some massive and extremely pessimistic assumptions there "
Nope - they've been discussing placing the borders back in place all day here.
The closure of borders to British firms has been a topic of discussion here all day,
Why should British firms have free passage over foreign countries - it has just removed itself from the only reason it has been able to.
"during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties."
Who says and why should countries assist a competitor?
The only reason for this decision to have been pushed through by the wealthy and privileged bit of Little England is the one touted by the Brexits from day one - to get rid of Johnny Foreigner.
I see you fail to commnt on the immediate damage done already - resignation of head of state, threat to peace process, possible break-up of Britain, immediate economic crash, (27 to the tune of 137bn.....
Sneak past the awkward bits, as usual
It's turned out to be a catastrophe on the first day - what can happen in a week, never mind two years?
Jim Carroll


Can somebody please put the above into recognisable and understandable English, so that I can try to put reasoned responses to it?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:54 PM

Um, all the referendum means is there is a known preference, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:08 PM

It means that far fewer than half of the people registered to vote voted to leave. Anyone remember when Maggie tried to insist that no union could call a strike unless there was a two-thirds majority of ALL MEMBERS in favour? 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:11 PM

The late, great, philosopher Marx {GROUCHO] had two quotations which are relevant to this situation:

I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me in it.

and,


Whatever it is, [if Trump in in favor of it] I'm against it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:13 PM

So what exactly is the purpose of Farrage and UKIP now?

They'll likely start a "Britons For Trump" organisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM

Good heavens Jim just when I thought that you couldn't be thicker you go and prove me wrong by demonstrating something else that you are prepared to argue about without having the vaguest knowledge oor understanding of the subject.

By the way Jim which firm in Ireland is going to make the wings, under-carriage and engines for the Airbus?

How exactly are the Germans going to force other countries to purchase the cars that Germany will no longer be selling to British customers?

Ireland's biggest trading partner in the EU is?? The UK. Whoops Jim where is Ireland going to find an alternate market to sell all the stuff currently exported to the UK? And how are they going to get them to their new customers? Can't go through the UK now can they (According to your idiotic take on events).


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:18 PM

Whoopee the UK is free. So how long will it take? According to Article (I can't remember, is it 50?) of the Lisbon (?) Treaty It takes two years. Extensions are possible. Do we still keep coughing up the money during that time? I've heard the view that from today onward we have no 'seat at the table' so if this is so why should we pay?
Anyway I'm glad to say I lived to see Independence Day.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:34 PM

Free from what? Wogs?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM

Worthy Oriental Gentlemen are not referenced. The UK is free from undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt European rule. Hooray.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:16 PM

"Can somebody please put the above into recognisable and understandable English"
Wjat you can#'t answer you don't understand - nothing new under the sun Nige
Typed in a hurry but perfectly understandable to those who wish to.
"Good heavens Jim just when I thought that you couldn't be thicker "
More insulting shit and no answers.
"under-carriage and engines for the Airbus?"
Wheee - all th unemployed can go and work on Airbus""""
Crassness in the extreme.
What is all this about - from the moment Britain leaves Europe we will no longer have free access across borders
Checkmate, I believe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:30 PM

Stanron

Go for it, you're not alone. It's almost worth it just to see so many self-righteous posters stuffed.

Fact is, the future won't be easy, but tell me it was when we were looking at having to absorb the worst excesses of EU rule?

I'm proud to be a 'racist bigot' that had the audacity to stick up for my Britain - like over 30 million others.

In Yorkshire the average vote was 70% to leave - so are we all thick shits?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:48 PM

The last laugh could be on the very people on the right who are gloating.

For millions of people who streamed out to vote Leave from poverty stricken estates and in devastated towns this was seen as their chance to kick the government they loathed, and which most people loathe. ( elected by one in four of tye electorate, and acting like it had some massive vote of confidence behind it).

These were peole who had given up on voting years ago, or never voted in their lives. The structure of the referendum they knew that their vote counted for once.

Those on the left who voted In were collateral damage, as was tge economy.

But now the distraction of immigration controls is no more. This is the chance for a populist movement of the repressed and exploited analogous to Podemos in Spain. The old rule book is torn up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:07 PM

"so are we all thick shits?"
No - only the racist bigots - especially the self-confessed ones.
An on-the spot survey announced today that the majority of those who were questioned and said they supported exit were under-educated - 'lumpen' is the old term.
In one day the British economy has taken a nosedive, the elected Prime Minister has been forced to resign, billions have been lost on the stock exchange, firms are now considering moving to the continent leaving thousands of unemployed in their wake, Scotland has demanded an Independence referendum, a border poll to find whether the Northern six counties should leave the Union has been mooted, the value of Sterling has bombed, Britain's investment in Europe is under threat and the leadership of the nation has been handed to two racist brain-deads, Johnson and Farage - on a plate -and all because 'the lady doesn't love..... Johnny Foreigner '
Don't know about "all", but people who support what has happened today are "thick shits" - they certainly have no regard for Britain and the people who live there.
Didn't think I would ever have lived to see Britain degraded to this level in my lifetime - especially by those claiming to have the interests of the country at heart.
Patriots - I've shit 'em!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:11 PM

The UK is free from undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt European rule.

One small problem, Sunshine.

The UK was never subject to undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt European rule.

As Boris Trumpshit would say: Make Britain Great Again?

Gimmie shelter.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:16 PM

Two contrasting Monty Python scenarios TO COME;

I'm free, I'm free I'm a big boy now I'm free !

or

THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM

Greg F
Assertions are not proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 PM

"Assertions are not proof."
The proof is in the pudding - it's been in the oven all day.
You people have not responded to any of the consequences that have taken place since the result was announced.
Prrof of gross dishonesty, if you like.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM

Assertions are not proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM

The UK continues to be subject to undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt rule. The DIY kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:01 PM

Assertions are not proof.

And I am about to go to bed.

Sweet dreams.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:28 AM

Watching the news today, it appears that Juncker is calling for the rest of the EU to take a hard line against UK.

We should not even think of invoking article 50 until there are terms on the table that 100% protect the rights of UK citizens for freedom to live, move, work across the EU, AND VICE VERSA, for continued access to the single market to protect present and future jobs in the UK, 100% guarantee that there will be no trade tariffs, ever, that the interests of the people of the UK be consulted on all future EU decisions. Once all this is in place, then, and only then should we start any formal process.

I am currently an EU member, and I am disgusted that I am not being represented in the talks the rest of the EU are having, especially as this will have an impact on the rest of my life.

Also, any agreement must include UK continuing to pay into EU to ensure that it continues its work in leveling the playing field for the less prosperous states.

The agreement must also bind the UK to pick up the tab for EU's contribution of development and structural funding etc to be spent according to EU rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM

"In one day the British economy has taken a nosedive, the elected Prime Minister has been forced to resign, billions have been lost on the stock exchange, firms are now considering moving to the continent leaving thousands of unemployed in their wake, Scotland has demanded an Independence referendum, a border poll to find whether the Northern six counties should leave the Union has been mooted, the value of Sterling has bombed, Britain's investment in Europe is under threat and the leadership of the nation has been handed to two racist brain-deads, Johnson and Farage"

Shall we see how much of the above our archetypal leftist wanker got wrong - it really is quite impressive

1: The British economy has taken a nosedive

Nope - in the course of yesterday the FTSE dropped less than 3% overall - it stands exactly where it did last February.

2: "the elected Prime Minister has been forced to resign"

Nope - he voluntarily offered his resignation, to some that is known as taking responsibility for ones actions - a concept totally foreign to an archetypal leftist wanker like Jim.

3: "billions have been lost on the stock exchange"

Nothing has been lost that cannot be recovered, currency fluctuates and the price of shares rise and fall.

4: "firms are now considering moving to the continent leaving thousands of unemployed in their wake"

Are they? Name them. I dare say that once the negotiations start there may be some adjustments, but that will do little to dent the City of London as one of the world's leading financial centres.

5: "Scotland has demanded an Independence referendum"

No it hasn't. Sturgeon has said that they are considering it, but I do not think that will consider it for very long. The SNP have painted themselves into a corner. Should they go for a second indy referendum they will surely lose it as:

- Scotland will be out of the EU and will have to apply for membership
- Scotland out of the UK would have to either create it's own currency or accept one that it had absolutely no control over.
- Scotland would have to budget on running the country on the current low price of oil per barrel (Their sums didn't add up when it stood at $90 per barrel it currently stands at about one-third of that)
- Scotland's main trading partner is the UK (If separation from the EU harms British trade, then it follows that separation from the UK will harm Scotland's)

If a second independence referendum is lost then that will be that issue dead and buried.

6: "a border poll to find whether the Northern six counties should leave the Union has been mooted"

And? The criteria for any referendum on the status of Northern Ireland are clear and agreed.

7: "the value of Sterling has bombed"

Oh hardly, I have seen it worse and it stands a damned sight better chance of recovery than the Euro, if you consider that both currencies dropped and that falls on European stock markets were bigger than in the UK.

8: "Britain's investment in Europe is under threat"

Now what investment would that be Jim?

9: "the leadership of the nation has been handed to two racist brain-deads, Johnson and Farage"

As far as I am aware Jim the leadership of the nation remains the same today as it was last Wednesday - you could of course attempt in your own spittle-flecked multi-coloured ranting manner to prove me wrong but you'd be on a hiding to nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM

I note that the Leave camp has already started to renege on it's promises. The £350 million promised to the NHS on their battlebus will not be forthcoming, according to Nigel Farage.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM

"We should not even think of invoking article 50"
Seems like yesterdays vote was somewhat of a fait accompli - we are where we are and can make no demands as to how we should be treated as non-members.
No country in its right mind is going to allow free border access to a competition nation - why should it, it was a perk of membership.
The same with employment
The vote went as it did yesterday in order to close Britain's borders - "unelected bureaucrats, democracy, taking our own decisions..." and the rest of it, had nothing to do with our withdrawal other than to be used as election slogans - Europe in no more undemocratic, bureaucratic and dependent as is our own Parliamentary system - we elect our representatives on the basis of promises they have no intention of keeping, they reign supreme for a set period serving their own interests, then we go through the motions again... ad infinitum.
Both Europe and the British Parliamentary system are flawed and in need of repair or even replacement, but ditancing yourself from either is an act of madness.
Yesterday was about a number of otherwise unelectable politicians seeking election - Jonson is talking like the next Prime Minister and Farage is behaving as if serious people take him seriously - and the country is heading for hell in a handcart.
Great Britain as a United Kingdom is next in the firing line, I have no doubt that many Tories who no longer have a presence in Scotland would be glad to see the back of it and as for those **** Irish....
Little England, here we come
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:20 AM

My currency exchange company is now offering 1.228 Euro to the pound. Down from 1.30 Euro on Wednesday.(These figures are AFTER commission is deducted)


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM

We need to think now of not will or won't happen, but what can happen. We have now voted away our right of protection from repressive legislation and that is frightening.   Do we really think it is a good idea to allow a parliament the power to reintroduce capital punishment - some may say that is a good thing, but is it worth the risk of a jury of decent people to find people like Huntly not guilty purely on the principle that killing is wrong, even if it is state sanctioned? Then what happens if a future, right wing government extends the scope for executions, say for 'enemies of the state'. It can happen, it has happened.

We are talking about 'fair controls of immigration'. We will not be bound by any treaties which means a future government could start a programme of deportations and interment of its 'undesirables'.

When people talk about regaining our freedom, what they do not realise is they have just surrenders our protections that are inherent in treaties that have being created through concensus and through our own involvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

NI may seek independence from UK!
That alone would make the whole thing worthwhile!

"Business world reacts as FTSE 100 finishes the week up more than 2pc after recovering from 8.7pc drop
Telegraph.co.uk‎ - 4 mins ago"


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

FTSE 100 for the last month


Make your own mind up


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:43 AM

"
Nope - he voluntarily offered his resignation,"
He was left with no alternative in the circumstances a concept totally foreign to an archetypal rightist goosestepper like Terubus.
"Are they? Name them. "
You've had one of them
Northern Irish firms almost universally are now demanding that they be allowed to stay with the E.U. and continue to reap the benefits - if their opting out of the United Kingdom, so be it.
"And? The criteria for any referendum on the status of Northern Ireland are clear and agreed."
And, as with Scotland, a distinct possiblity -leading to the possible break up of The United Kingdom (made the front page of this morning's Times).
this for a start my little jackbooted friend
And these
http://www.search.ask.com/web?l=dis&q=British+investments+in+Europe&o=APN10644A&apn_dtid=^BND533^YY^IE&shad=s_0048&gct=hp&apn_ptnrs=^AG5&d=533-289&lang=en&atb=sysid%3D533%3Aappid%3D289%3Auid%3D0a42db3121ef0199%3Auc2%3D818%3Atypekbn%3D1.1%3Asrc%3Dhmp%3Ao%3DAPN10644A%3Atg%3D&p2=^AG5^BND533^YY^IE
Did you really ask that?
The threayt of Boris the Clit and Farrago speaks for itself
"We are talking about 'fair controls of immigration'"
Come people are - others like Ukip are talking about foreigners per se
We need to be talking of our responsibilities to people fleeing from wars and economic conditions we have helped to cause ant to our responsibility as human beings to people in dire trouble.
If the world had responded to the plight of the Jews in the 1930s as Britain is responding to the refugee crisis now, the death toll would have been far higher than six million
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM

Hmmmmm I thought I'd linked to the past month but yesterdays figures are there for all to see. Like I said make your own mind up.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM

Last link didn't work out
Try these
Or these
Or maybe these
You seem to have come terms with the break-up of the United Kingdom
If Scotland and Ireland go - Wales!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

Lstest on the news - as far the EU founders are concerned, they want to now bulldoze UK out of EU as fast as possible. That is pure vindictivism.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM

That is pure vindictivism
Not really - Farage has proposed same thing
Britain's departure has left the EU with a hell of a lot of pieces to pick up, including the fact that M LePen and her right-wing extreme counterparts from other member states are calling for their countries to pull out (racism is a ticket to State leadership elsewhere apparently).
Why should the EU allow Britain to hang about to sort out its own problems when they have enough on their own plates.
Reminds me of the old fridge magnet parents used to put up aimed at theirtruculent offspring reading, "why not piss off and see the world know while you still know everything?"
We (or the more privileged or lumpen among us) have made our beds - we really are on our own - let's live with it.
I say that as a former British taxpayer who has seen his already pathetic state pension devalued over the last 24 hours - luckily we have no kids seeking employment over here or back home.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM

That is pure vindictivism.

Nope. Its the chickens coming home to roost.

YOUR chickens.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM

The position we are in has nothing to do with democracy, it has not been called in the interests of democracy bur purely as a matter of political expediency on the part of a deeply divided Tory party, backed up by blatant lies, and popularist slogans. All a short time after the Mayor election which didn't allow enough time for local Labour Parties to conduct intensive campaigns - even if we did get a good result in Ealing. We were fed a promise of bread and circuses if the big bad EU wolf was dealt with - the majority of people ignoring the fact that their hardship was brought about by domestic policy.

Morally Juncker owes the UK government nothing, but as a member of the Christian Social People's Party he should be concerned for thoseof us caught in the middle of it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM

Not my chickens,just 27% of the population?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM

I wouldn't consider it vindictiveness either. The EU will continue as a body and anyone not connected with it will be a distraction at least. Therefore in order to clear the decks the UK needs to be put out at the earliest possible so that the rest of the Union can continue without interruption.

Perhaps if the OUT campaign has done their homework they can sort out the situation they have created quickly ............... if they have done their homework.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM

What were the most popular etonian excuses for not doing your homework...???? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:54 AM

Haven't followed the thread.

Been hearing a lot about Brits living and working away and they are pissed off big time. I know a Mudcatter living in Germany and he and his mates feel screwed over by their fellow Brits. I feel for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM

Vote Boris Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM

" he and his mates feel screwed over by their fellow Brits"

Please remind him that nearly as many of us voted against as voted for...

My old mum has been unwell, but she insisted on being helped to walk to the polling station to vote 'REMAIN'...


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM

"Not my chickens,just 27% of the population?"
Exactly - doesn't seem fair, does it?
The deciding number come from the wealthy South East - the soft underbelly of Britain
"Morally Juncker owes the UK government nothing,"
"Christian Social People's Party he should be concerned for those of us caught in the middle of it all."
The Americans invented a phrase for it - collateral damage.
Britain does have a right to re-apply for membership, but looking at the list of possible leaders I can't see that happening.
Boris did promise to apologise if things went badly, but I wouldn't hold your breath!
"I know a Mudcatter living in Germany".......
I heard the tearful Dublin- born mother saying that her Enlish born son was "pissing off to live in Germany as there's nothing for me here".
last year there were 30,000 Britis drawing unemployment benefit in the E.U.
Unemployed Britons in richer EU states outnumber claimants from those countries in UK
There's a figure to conjure with.
Brits on the dole in Europe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM

The deciding number come from the wealthy South East - the soft underbelly of Britain

Not true.
London and SE were for remain.
It was the Labour voting North, including Yorkshire, that swung it.
Even those grieving the loss of poor Joe came out for leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM

Is Calais gearing itself up for a new influx of British refugees paddling unsafe inflatables across the channel to escape the impending civil war...????? 😨

.. I can easily imaging Boris and Gove in natty style dictatorship regime uniforms....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:16 PM

My predicted time-line.

Tory & UKIP Slime fungus (not sufficiently evolved to merit being called knuckle draggers): "Don't worry, when we exit we will whistle and the EU will roll-over and do what they are told"

EU: No we won't

Slime fungus: "EU are just scare-mongering, and besides, we will whistle, and the rest of the world will do what they are told"

Rest of the world: "No, we won't give you special treatment"

Slime fungus: "The rest of the world are just scare mongering, and beside what do they know, they are not in the EU"

Britain exits - everything goes pair shaped.

EU - "We told you we wouldn't give you special treatment"
Rest of the world: - "We told you we would give you special treatment"

The future - all the ills that were there before haven't gone away, and in fact have got worse because we have lost protection from treaties.

Slime fungus: "It's all the fault of all the immigrants" - and this is where life in the UK gets frightening, and the cycle of daily mails disadvantaged person of the month to blame campaign starts again.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:27 PM

"London and SE were for remain."
All the South Eastern counties voted to remain by %51, Eastern counties by %56.5 - only London voted to stay
Try to get it right Keith
Scotland had the highest percentage to remain at %62 (no wonder they want independence again) and interestingly, Northern Ireland voted by %55.8 to stay
Interesting times ahead!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:29 PM

Those who are cheering on Junker & Co., will see exactly why the vote to Leave was the correct one.

Now according to the Treaty the mechanism agreed by all 28 member states covering any member state leaving is Article 50. This says that the member state wishing to leave the EU must formally inform the EU and then the process is put in train and that process takes two years in which negotiations take place to finalise the matter.

The UK has not formally given notice so at present we are still full members of the EU and we should be up until the process is completed - now tell me how Jean-Claude is doing obeying EU rules? Next weeks Council of Ministers is being held with 27 Heads of Government not 28.

Junker & Co can say whatever they want the timing of giving formal notice is up to the UK NOT the EU. As someone has already said one idea would be that if the EU are going to disobey their own rules (Which they do regularly as long as it suits either the Commission, Germany or France) then why should the UK pay into the EU's coffers.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM

It's quite amusing, even in these dark times, when you recall all the crap from the out campaign about how we're being run by a bunch unelected Eurocrats, to contemplate that, come the autumn, the country is almost certainly going to be ruled by a man for whom not a single elector has voted. 😂😂😂 It's also quite amusing to think that the man who is calling for June 23 to be our Independence Day is a man who has tried and failed seven times to get elected to parliament. Think you've won back democracy, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM

Not amusing at all, Steve- I'm saddend & disappointed to know that there are apparently, percentage wise, as many Trumpist arseholes in the UK as there are in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM

Lasted news - France is planning to nullify Le Touquet treaty - have fun Dover!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM

My wife is overcoming her sudden disillusionment & self loathing of being Welsh,
because her drooling lust for pin-up boy Gareth Bale has proven too overpowering to resist... 😜

[currently nil / nil draw..]


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM

Look at these maps Jim.
The largest of the few Remain areas in Englandare London and surrounding prosperous areas stretching West and South, and a few other areas like Harrogate, York, Lakeland and Leeds in the North.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM

"to contemplate that, come the autumn, the country is almost certainly going to be ruled by a man for whom not a single elector has voted."

Really?? The Conservatives are going to elect someone to the office of Prime Minister who is not a duly elected member of the House of Commons? How are they going to do that?

As to what will settle things - and it will not be whatever Junker & Co give out as sound bytes - it will come down to Money, Security & Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM

"Those who are cheering on Junker & Co., "
Who would that be - nobody is "cheering him on, just pointing out what he has to do in his position.
Britain's leaving has placed the E.U. in a position of having to defend the rest of the member states.
It is the job of the commision to defend the Union from possible further damage and it the discretion of the president to decide how that should be done - his first priority is to the organisation itself and not defecting members.
Once again, Britain wants its cake having decided to eat it.
As it stands, Britain is a deeply divided state within itself standing to lose its Great Britain identity.
Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave.
The elected Prime Minister has been forced by the situation to resign, the leader of the opposition faces a vote of no confidence, all due to the 'leave' vote.
Attempting to appease Britain as it now stands would be like inviting a warring family to use your spare room.
It's just been announced that six foreign ministers of the E.U. member states (not just Junker) have asked that Britain leave as soon as possible.
It's also been announced in Ireland that prices in the shps in the Border counties have been seriously effected by Britain leaving.
I fine mess you've got us into Stanley!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM

It's also just been announced that NorthernIrish Post offices have received a record number of requests for Irish passport application forms.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

"Money, Security & Law"
The State before the people again - which is..... what's the word I'm looking for - begins with 'F'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

This is a state of affairs which is not of my (and 37 million others making. Of the other 17 million they will feel the same when the penny drops how they were lied to.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

"Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU.

"It's just been announced that six foreign ministers of the E.U. member states (not just Junker) have asked that Britain leave as soon as possible."

They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK.

"It's also been announced in Ireland that prices in the shops in the Border counties have been seriously effected by Britain leaving."

And that should be the concern of the UK how? Pretty certain that prices in the shops in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain have remained the same as they were on the 22nd June. Bit of profiteering by the latter-day "Gombeen Men" Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?




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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM

Teribus asks:
What percentage of Irish EU trade is with the UK?

16%.

I'm really sorry to see Britain - England, really - vote itself out of the EU. Apparently the EU has done terrible things to it. I don't know what they are.

I've seen the EU behave badly: over the refugees streaming out from under the bombs raining down on Syria and Afghanistan, and running north from the horrors of Somalia - our descendants will look at us the way that we look at the British over the Famine in Ireland. I've seen the EU behave badly over Greese; I'll never forget the sight of Tsipras, the new Greek prime minister, come cringing like a beaten dog out of his first meeting with the bullies. They haven't behaved well towards Ireland, where a completely innocent population has been forced to pay the debts of crooked bankers interlocked with other international crooks.

But in terms of legislation, the EU has been a force for good since it started; we'd have had a long wait for equal pay for women, and for all kinds of other worker rights and human decencies, if we were a bunch of separate little nations in competition.

A bad day for Europe, a bad day for Britain, and they've really screwed Ireland.

Think of this one little example: since most of Ireland's imported food (like most of Britain's) comes from the EU, it has been found convenient to supply it through British centres that have treated Ireland as a 'region'. If this continues, Ireland will have massively inflated food prices due to customs, tariffs and two changes of currency - out of the euro into the pound; out of the pound again into the euro. If the system is changed and the food flies directly from Europe, it will still be expensive, due to the loss of economies of scale.

I know they weren't thinking of us, or of anyone except themselves, but - Albion perfide.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."
Individually, these two voted to leave - they are both States in their own right, however Empire Loyalists might consider them.
If things continue where they are heading at present, it will all be academic - Great Britain will fragment
"They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK."
Let's see, shall we.
These are extraordinary circumstances.
We are witnessing an extremist right wing putsch in Europe at present.
Austria has recently narrowly avoided electing a neo-Fascist party into power, Mm Le Pen's party is on the rise in France, extremist groups in The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Italy have made calls to leave the E.U.   
Brexit contagion
The Brexits fought their campaign on a racist ticket; Farage has already been linked to the European far right, and Johnson has echoed Ukip's anti-emigrant stance - neither are to be trusted not to throw their lot in with the European extreme right.
"And that should be the concern of the UK how? "
Because Britain has just taken a step which has caused those price-rises ans whatever you personally might think of the Irish, Britain is responsible for whatever happens in Great Britain and ids duty bound to put right whatever damage has been done - that is what being part of Great Britain is all about me little Kluxer.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM

"So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???"


As soon as you like pfr.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:38 PM

"As soon as you like pfr."


I don't want to ever.. right.. solved that then, thanks...

If only the rest of LEAVE were as reasonable as you...????? 🙄

Be nice if Boris and Farage should dip their hands in their pockets to reimburse us for any of our hard earned £££S losses caused by their monomaniac ideological over eagerness.....


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

Bugger. Got me facts wrong there. I forgot that Boris got a seat last time out. However, you don't have to be an MP to be PM. Sir Alec was PM for three weeks whilst being neither in the Commons nor the Lords.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM

Ah so it is the duty and responsibility of the British electorate to take into account and put the interests of other nations before their those of their own?? Dream On.

The Republic of Ireland's top three trading partners in descending order of importance are - The USA: the UK; Belgium.

"SPB-Cooperator - 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?


No idea SPB what price have you paid so far?

Yes Jom by all means let's see if the EU Commission will abide by the rules that they themselves imposed upon the EU member states - If they don't then they will demonstrate quite clearly why the UK vote to leave what will have been proven to be a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable dictatorship was the correct thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:11 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"
All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves.

I'm fed up with the abuse being aimed at Nigel Farage, without him there would have been no referendum, for a while he fought the system single handed, demonised by every power hungry party in the country, demonised by every news paper.

He should be a candidate for politician of the year....the man has balls of steel.

Jim says... he is a racist and anti- immigrant, that is untrue he is simply against the free movement of people within the EU and you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see why.
Free movement would be perhaps acceptable if the playing field was level but there will never be mass migration of unskilled labour from the UK to Eastern Europe ......who wants to work for a quarter of what they can make at home.....and no benefits, poor health service and life in a squat?


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM

100 years from now.. will historians evaluate Farrage in the same way we regard Oswald Mosley & Lord Haw-Haw...??? 🤔


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:32 PM

"the man has balls of steel."..... plural...???

errrrmmmmm... something else he may share in common with another 'great' leader from 20th Century history.... 😬


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

How different things would be if David Cameron had agreed to the demand to make victory for the leavers dependant on their winning in all four parts of the UK. I've never seen any explanation as to why he made a decision like that. Sheer stupidity and arrogance?

The other thing that would have made all the difference is if migrants from EU countries had had the same right to vote as those from Pakistan and India and other Commonwealth countries. In the Scottish referendum they were allowed to vote. So were 16 and 17 year olds.

Three ways out which would have made all the difference, all perfectly justifiable in terms of democratic principles.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:08 PM

Or perhaps requiring a clear significant majority either way for an unconditional win..
..and a possible 2nd round for less than, let's say, 5 - 10 % 'victory'...???

.. or maybe a penalty shoot out...?????? errrrmm.. footballs, not bullets.....🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:12 PM

So far as the timetable for leaving, it is obvious that both parties will be trying to arrange this in the way that is most convenient, rather than bending over backwards to suit the other side.

Obviously for the EU it makes sense that, if the UK it should do so as promptly as possible. That means, the two years provided for, quite long enough.

That might not suit the Conservative Party, but so what?

I imagine a fair compromise will be reached. If the Conservatives will have a new leader, and the country a new Prime Minister, by October, that would be a reasonable date for the two year countdown to start.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:35 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"

And the fallout therefrom is just beginning - get used to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:04 PM

I nearly fell out of my standing reading the New Yorker's claim today that America (home of mass shootings, of ordinary people having multiple guns at home, of state executions, of racial discrimination, of sub-prime mortgages, of state assassinations of foreign citizens without trial…) is now the home of liberalism!

Teribus - should the English have considered other nations when voting on their own future? Not what I was suggesting; I was saying you rightly screwed us over, but perhaps that should not be unexpected.

It might be more worrying to consider that you rightly screwed yourselves over, from the look of the economic readouts. As a joker on Twitter said today, "Don't forget that we can restore the value of Sterling simply by buying pounds off each other. I'm offering 30p each."


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Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit