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BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority

Stu 30 May 16 - 03:53 PM
Greg F. 30 May 16 - 03:31 PM
Pete from seven stars link 30 May 16 - 03:27 PM
Stu 30 May 16 - 03:04 PM
Pete from seven stars link 30 May 16 - 02:43 PM
Senoufou 30 May 16 - 01:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 01:08 PM
Senoufou 30 May 16 - 12:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 12:50 PM
Stu 30 May 16 - 12:44 PM
Greg F. 30 May 16 - 12:30 PM
Senoufou 30 May 16 - 12:14 PM
Donuel 30 May 16 - 09:48 AM
Doug Chadwick 30 May 16 - 07:59 AM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 07:53 AM
Stu 30 May 16 - 07:02 AM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 03:26 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 16 - 10:52 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 08:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 16 - 07:29 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 07:18 PM
Pete from seven stars link 29 May 16 - 06:29 PM
DMcG 29 May 16 - 11:44 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 09:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM
Jeri 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM
Jeri 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 16 - 06:47 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 06:39 PM
Pete from seven stars link 28 May 16 - 06:38 PM
Tunesmith 28 May 16 - 02:17 PM
Pete from seven stars link 28 May 16 - 01:22 PM
Donuel 28 May 16 - 11:18 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 07:12 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 05:33 AM
Stu 28 May 16 - 03:55 AM
Greg F. 27 May 16 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 16 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 12:19 PM
Tunesmith 27 May 16 - 11:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 May 16 - 11:33 AM
Pete from seven stars link 27 May 16 - 11:17 AM
Pete from seven stars link 27 May 16 - 11:15 AM
Stu 27 May 16 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 10:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 May 16 - 10:34 AM
Tunesmith 27 May 16 - 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:53 PM

"Ah stu, surprised at you. I thought you were a fully informed evolutionist"

I'm a palaeontologist, not an evolutionist. And I was taking the piss out of the latest creationist trope; dimwits the world over are tweeting this ill-thought out crap like mad monkeys.

"you should know that humans only(supposedly) came from one line of apes."

You do realise there have been many species of human in the past? Do you understand the concept of descent from a common ancestor. Do you understand anything to do with science?


"However, I think that if you were to look , there are instances of organisms washed and buried together"

I didn't say there wasn't. Read my post again.


" Pity he speculated beyond the bounds of speciation within the limits of each organism"

This sentence is total gobbledygook.


"Plate tectonics , would that be slow as now , or rapid plate movements as perhaps occurred at the flood."

What flood? Peer-reviewed evidence links please.


Pete, you might be a nice bloke, but you really should go back to stoning sheep-shaggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:31 PM

More utterly incorrect and ignorant bullshit, pete. Where do you get this garbage from? And more importantly, WHY?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:27 PM

Ah stu, surprised at you. I thought you were a fully informed evolutionist.b you should know that humans only(supposedly) came from one line of apes.          Organisms in fossil layers ? There is a general order as might be expected from 1 not living in the same areas , and 2 some creatures could get further and higher as the flood prevails. However, I think that if you were to look , there are instances of organisms washed and buried together.   If you want to know how speciation works try Darwin . Pity he speculated beyond the bounds of speciation within the limits of each organism. Plate tectonics , would that be slow as now , or rapid plate movements as perhaps occurred at the flood.      And the last ones real easy.... , the snail ,it evolved into a mudcatter who challenged you all to show him some evolution lol !


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:04 PM

"But last I heard it was established they were a species of homo sapiens , as it was found they interbred with other humans."

They've never been a species of Homo sapiens. Ever. Closely related species can interbreed; Homo sapiens interbred with the Denovisians too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:43 PM

Raggy, your link did,nt work for me. You could just tell me what your point is though, rather than posting links without putting an argument yourself. But last I heard it was established they were a species of homo sapiens , as it was found they interbred with other humans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:37 PM

Hahaha punkfolkrocker! I too was educated and influenced along rather progressive lines. I left home very young and have always 'fended for myself' and travelled fairly widely. I suppose that's led me to form my own views and become a bit of a Refusenik. If one is distanced slightly from recognised paths, one can assess mainstream tenets rather more objectively. A Cat Who Walks By Herself.

I know, Jim. Our village church is huge (and draughty!) and there are sometimes only two or three shivering folk sitting under the tiny electric heater.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:19 PM

Senoufou - can't argue with that..


Is 'benigncouldn'tgiveamonkeysaboutitallism' a recognized option...???


...independent autonomous state of mind is where my progressive 1970s education lead me... 😎

Shame kids 4 or 5 years younger had to grow up under the Thatcher regime... 😭


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:08 PM

"I could be in a religious group of one!
"
Sounds like a couple of our local churches (nearly) nowadays.
I remember a vicar telling of a colleague addressing his congregation with the words, "do you know each other?"
Jim CaRROLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:57 PM

I suppose one doesn't actually need an 'ism' at all. One could just have a personal religious standpoint and try to abide by it. There's really no need to join an organised faith. I could be in a religious group of one!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:50 PM

Senoufou - if you drop the requirement for it being a religion, you might very well find all that and more in Humanism..
.. or dare I say.. errrrrrmmm... socialism....????? 🤔


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:44 PM

"I know most of my intent and perspectives are misunderstood and some of it is a waste of time. So goes it for Joe as well."

So it goes for us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:30 PM

Check out Tibetan Buddhism as a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:14 PM

I wonder if a religion exists where the emphasis is on kindness and compassion, practical altruistic help for those in need and a deep love of nature and wildlife? Perhaps one which discouraged aggression and vengeance? And actively promoted understanding and acceptance of diversity?
I think I'd subscribe to that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:48 AM

Scripture, Bible versions, Papal infallibility, Excommunication, strict law, bureaucratic decree and official condemnation, all of this war of words is not the form or function of religion that people need, want or desire.

None of those pursuits do anything for the child newly bullied, the wife widowed yesterday, the hungry next door, the young lady wrongly adored or the soldier now deformed.

People want a religion that is the canvas they can paint a participation of shared interests, recipes, art, sport and perspective, hurt, loss and celebration.

Religion like the invisible framework of dark matter to make visible matter coalesce and draw together with a friendly gravity.

Scripture does not have a damn thing to do with it.

From this perspective you can see that mudcat is a religion that does some o the important work religion can do.


Yes it is a religion. It is one in which Steve Shaw, technocrats and atheists participate and who do so with invaluable perspective and without punishment.







I know most of my intent and perspectives are misunderstood and some of it is a waste of time. So goes it for Joe as well. But we try.

Vivre l'difference et the similarities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:59 AM

...... how radioisotope dating is a fraud ......

Of course it's a fraud. I've been on loads of radioisotope dating websites and they're either after your money or trying to get round the immigration rules. Avoid them if you're looking for a long term relationship.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:53 AM

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/neanderthals-likely-built-176-000-old-underground-ring-094948286.html

Try this if the link doesn't work


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:02 AM

Pete - If humans evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? Get out of that one my fundamentalist friend!

And then explain to me why fossils are arranged in layers containing distinct collections of organisms rather then being jumbled up, as they would if deposited by a flood.

And then explain to me how speciation works. And plate tectonics. And snail evolution.

For how I view these things, refer to the current scientific literature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:26 AM

Neanderthals

I wonder how creationists explain this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 16 - 10:52 PM

I dunno. Sometimes less is more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 08:30 PM

Good grief, Acme, I held back on pete's abuse of English yet here you are going for the jugular. Do you think I'm going all soft and benign in my old age?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:29 PM

creationist scientist (as historically ,most have been) and to say otherwise without substantiation , is just begging the question.

Good lord, (lower case "L"), Pete is still trying to redefine everything to fit his world view, isn't he? "Creation Scientist" is a classic oxymoron. And his nonsense about "without substantiation" and "begging the question" simply mean that he can speak English without understanding it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:18 PM

Well there you go. A Pete tour de force. How can you resist, tunesmith? 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 16 - 06:29 PM

And Steve is usually the one who brings the subject up at the drop of a hat. I could let it go , but I think it worth correcting him for the benefit of anyone else who might want to know what I actually do say. Fossils are not fake and creationists expect there to be a lot of them from the upheaval of the flood.          Radioisotope readings are not fake, but they don't give consistent dates, and assumptions about the unobservable past have to be accepted to arrive at the dates. Different methods have often given wildly different dates , so why trust them so much? Sometimes rocks of known recent age have rendered readings from eons past.    He is not far out with the soft tissue though of course omitting why, ie practical science puts a limit on how long soft tissue can last , under various conditions but such are found often in specimens far too old.       Evolutionists can of course achieve repeatable observationaly verified science , but not in that area, because, believe it or not, time passes and it's gone.         If you can have an evolutionary scientist, you can have a creationist scientist (as historically ,most have been) and to say otherwise without substantiation , is just begging the question.      Yes, I trust the bible , and you trust evolutionism.    Yes, I believe evolutionism is a faith position , and religion , just as some evolutionists have also conceded.       So, tunesmith why do you trust it ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 16 - 11:44 AM

I hope you don't think that is the entire set of possibilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 09:04 PM

Well, Jeri, as long as we're talking we're not punching each other's lights out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM

..and God said.. "Let there be Shite...".... 😇


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM

Yep, Steve, but it's not the same people saying basically the same things. I suppose I have to admit I have a problem with futile repetition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:06 PM

Well, people have been arguing about "this shit" since time immemorial, and will continue to do so for a good few more centuries at a guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM

When he says: "tell me what convinces you that the impossible can happen without a creator, however much time you throw at it ," what he means is that the impossible can't happen without the infinitely more impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM

Stupid, in a "this should be obvious sort of way" answer: it's not impossible. Why are people arguing about this shit (and I mean "Shit") again? Or still? Spontaneous development of function of reliably inoperative brain cells probably IS impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:47 PM

... what's impossible..??? .. it happened...!!!!!

Doesn't mean we necessarily know, or ever will know, exactly how or why... ????

.. But I can live with that... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:39 PM

Why yes he is, Tunesmith. Whatever you do, don't get him started on how fossils are all fakes, how radioisotope dating is a fraud, how soft tissue can't possibly be preserved, how we "evolutionists" can't achieve repeatable, observable science (as if he and his creationist cronies have ever observed or repeated anything), how you can have such a thing as a creationist scientist, how the Bible must be literally true because the Bible tells you that it's literally true, and how Darwinism is an evil, bogus religion. Well no, do get him started if you want to. If you do, it'll be because you have one of two motives: either you want to convert, or you want to have a bloody good belly-laugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:38 PM

Ok tunesmith, apart from your obvious prejudice against biblical creationists, tell me what convinces you that the impossible can happen without a creator, however much time you throw at it .


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 28 May 16 - 02:17 PM

OK Pete, what's your alternative to evolution?
And, I do hope you're not one of those "the world began 6000yrs ago" nutters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 16 - 01:22 PM

So mr brainbox, I suppose you are thoroughly acquainted with all those disciplines !? I am , admittedly giving in to a hint of sarcasm here , stu. But , why not tell me just one thing that demonstrates microbes to man evolution , and that can have no other interpretation of the data .....,just from what you specialise in.                                    Steve, I shall take that as a backhanded compliment lol !                      Tunesmith, your reply evaded my point, and not only that, but what you did suggest is mistaken anyway. Besides those who question evolution who are believers in God , there is a list of academic Darwin doubters , and among those who persist in the evolutionary faith are those who recognise that the current widely held dogma is deeply flawed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:18 AM

I have established that some religions are doing their job and some are not. A consumer satisfaction poll of the practitioners and former members would be very revealing.

Technology can do many of the things that used to be the sole domain of religion. If tech can do it better, it is religion's responsibility to do it better, cheaper and faster. How could religion advance?
They could abolish their old non compete clauses, they could down play their insistence upon old time religion. They could market their wares better by advertising that they are extremely valuable at times of catastrophic destruction of government, resources and order. They would attract a lot more wannabe preppers.

Any thing religion can do tech is beginning to do better.

Tech can even provide Personal epiphany via drugs, electrical brain stimulation of the parietal lobe, sensory deprivation, amygdala manipulation and real time self guided tours of the brain.

Stop me now because I can keep going.

We can and should rate religion on a exploitation-humanitarian scale
Religion has dropped the ball.
Religion will NOT save us from the next asteroid impact
Once the singularity arrives we will finally meet GOD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:12 AM

Oh gosh, capitals more or less In the right places. Oh, the irony! 😳


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 05:33 AM

Well, Pete, when I discern signs of fluency, reasonable punctuation, half-decent sentence structure, capitals more or less In the right places and at least a smidgeon of cohesive thought, who could blame me for suspecting that the work is not entirely of your own hand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 16 - 03:55 AM

"Steve, I don't even know how to copy and paste."

Yet you claim to understand physics, chemistry, biology, zoology, cosmology, astronomy, geology, palaeontology, mathematics etc etc better than any highly trained, expert practitioner of these sciences who thinks the universe is over 6000 yrs old (which is pretty much all of them).

Blimey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:11 PM

Where the church resists homosexual marriage, it is hardly being establishment ,or a tool of such, since it is the established govt that championed the redefinition of marriage.

What the fook? This is even more nonsensical than your usual fundagelical literalist creationist garbage, pete.

You just having a bad day?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 16 - 02:32 PM

Well I think I have as much right to define marriage as anyone else, including whoever it was who defined it in the first place. Who was it, anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 12:19 PM

"hardly being establishment ,or a tool of such, since it is the established govt that championed the redefinition of marriage."
That harking back to the time "were they were the Establishment" or else held it in their pockets.
The reason Catholic countries in particular are still fighting fo sexual rights is that, in many of these places, the word of the church is the law.
It's only since their grip was loosed, thanks to their track record being exposed, that some of them have taken a giant step into - well.... the twentieth century at least.
Following the magnificent victory in the same-sex referendum, the Bishop of Dublin grudgingly described the result as "a wake-up call for the church".
The right wing of the church are still snoozing away in their bedc.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:56 AM

Pete from seven stars link says:

"I hope you apply the same logic to evolutionism , since it's followers can't agree on how it (supposedly) works !"

It seems as that the only scientists that disagree with the principle of evolution are devote Christian scientists.

And, of course, scientists are constantly working towards a better understanding of all things scientific, unlike "well-adjusted Christians" who continue to cling to ancient, discredited texts.

Mankind will not be able to move forward and create a better, fairer society until religion has been totally removed from the workings of the state because religions insidious presence is far to influential.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:33 AM

I don't care if it's God's or evolutions fault.. I've still had another afternoon wasted with IBS,
and trying to convince my mum on the phone that £35 for shopping deducted from £70 = £35 left for next week... 😣

Need to catch a train now to help her out before she gets even more confused and upset.

That's just plain and simple family 'love' nothing at all to do with religion...


There are really more important things to care about than an old book...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:17 AM

.......or as per your words , it's "a huge joke "


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:15 AM

Where the church resists homosexual marriage, it is hardly being establishment ,or a tool of such, since it is the established govt that championed the redefinition of marriage..             Steve, I don't even know how to copy and paste. It was not copied or pasted !            Tunesmith , I suppose you might have a point in that there are texts that can be interpreted variously, or applies in different ways.   I hope you apply the same logic to evolutionism , since it's followers can't agree on how it (supposedly) works !


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:53 AM

In the UK people are also deeply cynical about the intentions of the establishment and it's institutions, such as the church. The fact the church is so far behind the general feeling of the people makes it irrelevant; the ridiculous fuss over women bishops for example, it's resistance to gay marriage for another.

It's obvious the powers that be are working to their own agenda, and when you get a load of old men trying to cling to power by oppressing others then that's guaranteed to make sure people don't take the church seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:46 AM

"The whole Bible thing is a huge joke."
In fairness quite an ENTERTAINING joke.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:34 AM

Who else remembers "Bumper Fun Books"...??? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:23 AM

Trying to make sense of the Bible is clearly a waste of time with so many different - and ever changing - interpretation of what this and that bit of scripture means.
For example, I was on a thread recently, and a poster wrote that the British Queen won't be going to heaven because, to "quote" Jesus:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Well, this caused an outcry among Christian.

One poster replied that Jesus had been exaggerating when he made the above statement.

Another poster claimed that the Queen isn't really rich! ( She's usually quoted as being the richest women in the UK).

The whole Bible thing is a huge joke.


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