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BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority

Raggytash 24 May 16 - 03:47 AM
Stu 24 May 16 - 03:53 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 04:03 AM
Joe Offer 24 May 16 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 04:08 AM
Stanron 24 May 16 - 04:08 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 04:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 04:15 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 04:19 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 04:24 AM
Joe Offer 24 May 16 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 04:31 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 04:39 AM
Senoufou 24 May 16 - 04:45 AM
Joe Offer 24 May 16 - 04:50 AM
Stu 24 May 16 - 04:56 AM
Senoufou 24 May 16 - 04:59 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 05:05 AM
Senoufou 24 May 16 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 05:17 AM
Georgiansilver 24 May 16 - 05:23 AM
Joe Offer 24 May 16 - 05:28 AM
Megan L 24 May 16 - 05:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 16 - 05:51 AM
Doug Chadwick 24 May 16 - 06:06 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 06:07 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 07:00 AM
Backwoodsman 24 May 16 - 07:21 AM
Senoufou 24 May 16 - 07:31 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 08:11 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 08:19 AM
Raggytash 24 May 16 - 08:59 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 09:09 AM
Jeri 24 May 16 - 10:38 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 24 May 16 - 10:51 AM
Senoufou 24 May 16 - 10:57 AM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 11:09 AM
Manitas_at_home 24 May 16 - 11:14 AM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 11:42 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 11:49 AM
Stu 24 May 16 - 12:00 PM
TheSnail 24 May 16 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 16 - 01:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 01:15 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 01:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 16 - 01:59 PM
DMcG 24 May 16 - 02:42 PM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 03:13 PM
Greg F. 24 May 16 - 03:15 PM
Amos 24 May 16 - 03:38 PM
Little Hawk 24 May 16 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 04:01 PM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 04:43 PM
Amos 24 May 16 - 04:44 PM
Pete from seven stars link 24 May 16 - 05:12 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 06:24 PM
Amos 24 May 16 - 06:33 PM
Jeri 24 May 16 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 07:56 PM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 08:22 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 16 - 08:29 PM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 10:45 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 May 16 - 10:48 PM
Stu 25 May 16 - 04:39 AM
Steve Shaw 25 May 16 - 05:43 AM
Pete from seven stars link 25 May 16 - 11:43 AM
Bill D 25 May 16 - 11:44 AM
Greg F. 25 May 16 - 12:17 PM
Pete from seven stars link 25 May 16 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 25 May 16 - 12:42 PM
MGM·Lion 25 May 16 - 01:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 May 16 - 01:11 PM
Senoufou 25 May 16 - 01:26 PM
DMcG 25 May 16 - 01:58 PM
Bill D 25 May 16 - 02:46 PM
MGM·Lion 25 May 16 - 04:54 PM
Joe Offer 25 May 16 - 06:40 PM
Pete from seven stars link 25 May 16 - 06:50 PM
Joe Offer 25 May 16 - 06:53 PM
Pete from seven stars link 25 May 16 - 06:56 PM
Joe Offer 25 May 16 - 07:11 PM
Steve Shaw 25 May 16 - 08:19 PM
Jack Campin 25 May 16 - 09:15 PM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 03:18 AM
Senoufou 26 May 16 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 16 - 06:30 AM
Stu 26 May 16 - 02:54 PM
MGM·Lion 26 May 16 - 02:59 PM
Pete from seven stars link 26 May 16 - 07:08 PM
Steve Shaw 26 May 16 - 07:15 PM
Jack Campin 26 May 16 - 08:38 PM
Donuel 26 May 16 - 10:38 PM
Donuel 26 May 16 - 10:42 PM
Senoufou 27 May 16 - 03:36 AM
Tunesmith 27 May 16 - 10:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 May 16 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 10:46 AM
Stu 27 May 16 - 10:53 AM
Pete from seven stars link 27 May 16 - 11:15 AM
Pete from seven stars link 27 May 16 - 11:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 May 16 - 11:33 AM
Tunesmith 27 May 16 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 27 May 16 - 12:19 PM
Steve Shaw 27 May 16 - 02:32 PM
Greg F. 27 May 16 - 03:11 PM
Stu 28 May 16 - 03:55 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 05:33 AM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 07:12 AM
Donuel 28 May 16 - 11:18 AM
Pete from seven stars link 28 May 16 - 01:22 PM
Tunesmith 28 May 16 - 02:17 PM
Pete from seven stars link 28 May 16 - 06:38 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 06:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 16 - 06:47 PM
Jeri 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 07:06 PM
Jeri 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 16 - 09:04 PM
DMcG 29 May 16 - 11:44 AM
Pete from seven stars link 29 May 16 - 06:29 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 07:18 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 16 - 07:29 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 16 - 08:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 16 - 10:52 PM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 03:26 AM
Stu 30 May 16 - 07:02 AM
Raggytash 30 May 16 - 07:53 AM
Doug Chadwick 30 May 16 - 07:59 AM
Donuel 30 May 16 - 09:48 AM
Senoufou 30 May 16 - 12:14 PM
Greg F. 30 May 16 - 12:30 PM
Stu 30 May 16 - 12:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 12:50 PM
Senoufou 30 May 16 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 16 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 16 - 01:19 PM
Senoufou 30 May 16 - 01:37 PM
Pete from seven stars link 30 May 16 - 02:43 PM
Stu 30 May 16 - 03:04 PM
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Subject: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:47 AM

Some of the members of this site have been maintaining for some time that followers of religion are a minority in the UK. This survey would seem to back up that viewpoint.

Atheists a Majority


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:53 AM

It doesn't say atheists are a majority, it says people of 'no religion' are a majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:03 AM

Definition of Atheists:

Atheists are people who believe that god or gods (or other supernatural beings) are man-made constructs, myths and legends or who believe that these concepts are not meaningful.

You can of course argue semantics if you wish and I'm sure some people will (ad nauseam)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:04 AM

I think the so-called "Fall of Religion" is a healthy thing for religion. When religion was a thing that everybody did, it was an empty ritual for many people who felt social pressure to belong, and it made for lifeless congregations. Now that religion is understood to be a voluntary thing, the people in church are mostly those who really want to be there.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:08 AM

OP,
Some of the members of this site have been maintaining for some time that followers of religion are a minority in the UK.

I have never seen any such claim Rag.
Can you support that assertion, or is it just a made up whim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Stanron
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:08 AM

First three definitions of Atheist in a Yahoo search

Oxford dictionary:        Atheist, a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods:

Wiki                        Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist.

Dictionary.com                Atheist definition, a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


A difference that makes no difference is not a difference, unless you want to defend belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:10 AM

Whatever Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:15 AM

As Stu says, the linked article does not say that atheists are a majority.
Another false claim Rag.
Many people with no religion still have belief in afterlife, spiritual entities and such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:19 AM

Whatever Keith


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Subject: BS: Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:24 AM

Just for the pedants.

Christians now a Minority
    Nope, Raggytash, you don't get two threads on such closely related subjects. I combined them. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:26 AM

I dunno, Keith. I have thought for quite some time that "followers of religion are a minority in the UK." I've read statistics that indicate that to be so. Do I count?
I think it would be a fallacy to say that "atheists are a majority," because atheism seems to be a more active form of nonbelief.

Raggytash, you may think it a matter of semantics, but I would hope to see a day when people no longer see a need to refute or denigrate the belief systems (or nonbelief) of others. It seems that we humans have a tendency to think ourselves right and all others wrong - but that isn't a very good way to live in harmony.

I would like to see a time when people of various schools of thought could learn to go beyond mere "tolerance" to true respect for the way other people think. I think we should all be able to learn from each other and respect each other, without all thinking the same way.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:31 AM

"Whatever Keith"
Amen to that.
Please don't let an interesting topic be led into a blind alley -especially about who said what when
"Many people with no religion still have belief in afterlife, spiritual entities and such."
Or Satanism or tree worship or belief in 'The Little People' or Tolkeinism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:39 AM

Thanks Joe. Hopefully we will not be dragged into semantics now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:45 AM

While I don't doubt the results of this survey, and having seen our village church congregation dwindle over the years, I still think quite a few people say they have 'no religion' while deep down they nourish a faint hope that God does actually exist. This 'hope' often surfaces at times of great distress such as bereavement. I've often been asked to pray for someone by a self-proclaimed 'atheist'.
I also notice many young couples quite like a church ceremony for their wedding. I'm not so cynical as to think they're merely looking for a pretty setting, as nowadays there are some stunning secular buildings available as wedding venues. Similarly, it's quite surprising to see the number of infant baptisms taking place in our church. The parents of the baby are never seen at services, but fortunately our church has no objections or barriers to the baptism of their child.
Many funerals of atheists are conducted with appropriate prayers. I've seen this myself.
I merely state these observations, as I have no problem with atheism, and have never tried to push religion down anybody's throat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:50 AM

I hope it's all OK now, Raggytash.

Let me go a step further in the discussion: I think that when any one way of thinking becomes the majority, it tends to become oppressive. I think that a pluralistic society is far healthier.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:56 AM

Sorry - came over as a tad confrontational. An agnostic is not an atheist, but can still have no religion; headline seems a bit clickbaity to me.

Interesting stuff thought, and no surprise at all. Religion is part of the establishment and has lost it's moral authority in a morass of directionless bickering whilst the modern world moves on in the wider world. Here new moralities are being forged and the old intolerances and hypocrisies of the priests, rabbis and imams look like the relics of a time long gone.

We're better off without them. Secularism allows people otherwise eschewed by the major religions to return to the society they belong in. Religion is rejected along with modern politics because it is an anachronism, corrupt and rotten to the core. That's not to say everyone involved is rotten, far from it as these people work selflessly for others, often in very difficult and dangerous circumstances. Also on a local level religion provide a focus for community that is massively important.

However, the established religions and their proclamations, bulls and fatwas are hopefully being consigned to the dustbin of history where they belong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:59 AM

I agree with that Joe. I have some experience of Muslim societies, and as you say, it's oppressive. The whole community trundles off to the mosque at dawn, and for all the prayer times, and fasting during Ramadan etc. I know several who aren't a bit enthusiastic but daren't opt out for fear of condemnation. My husband is one of those, and felt terribly oppressed to practise Islam in his community. His father actually beat him savagely when, as an adult, he expressed a wish to ease off a bit. That's not genuine, heartfelt religion, merely conforming to a rigid social norm.
I feel that tolerance and acceptance of all religions and none is the only way we can live in truth and peace together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:05 AM

Senoufou, the same could be said of oppressive christianity until quite recently. Thankfully that seems to be increasingly a thing of the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:15 AM

Yes I agree Raggytash. I didn't mean Islam is the only oppressive religion. It's just an example from my own experiences in Africa.

Most of the great religions are awfully dogmatic and rigid, and have caused pain and distress, to say the least, over the centuries. I think they thrived on the fact that in times past, people were more biddable and dare I say, ignorant and gullible. They swallowed whole all the dogma out of, maybe, fear and submission. Nowadays (I'm glad to say) people are more informed and can think for themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:17 AM

"because atheism seems to be a more active form of nonbelief."
Not really accurate Joe - you can reject a belief in God(s) without actually doing anything about it.
The atheist organisations (very much a minuscule minority of atheists as a whole) are merely those who wish to give voice to their atheism
" I think that when any one way of thinking becomes the majority, it tends to become oppressive"
Pretty well the sate of things when religion held sway - let's hope atheists don't treat Christians the way Christians treated atheists, it would play hell with our natural ecology if atheists started cutting down all our trees to burn Christians.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:23 AM

One of the great problems is that schools, including Christian run schools, in the UK, can no longer practice Christianity and all children are expected to learn a little about all 'religions'. The Government is also working oppress Christianity by restricting Christian rights to less than other religions. Christian outdoor gatherings have been prohibited for fear of upsetting people of other beliefs. The UK used to be classed as a Christian country.... now.. there are so many people here who do not know what Christianity is all about that missionaries come here from other countries to try to educate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:28 AM

But somehow, we have to find a way to work together. A coalition of religious and non-religious people opened a homeless shelter in our community last year - but the guiding forces were a Catholic priest and a Seventh-Day Adventist minister, Meals are prepared mostly in church kitchens, and volunteers come mostly from church congregations - and since they do not belong to congregations, it can be easy to forget the non-religious people who also are playing an important part in the running of the shelter. It would seem a shame to strip the religious aspects of what we're doing, because the religious aspects do a lot of good. But for this thing to work, it has to be inclusive. I'm Catholic, but I came to the project through a non-religious community homeless forum - so the people I've worked most closely with have no evident religious affiliation.

Somehow, it's working well and we're having a good time doing it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Megan L
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:46 AM

I have found that people shout very loudly whether they shout of religion Atheism or anything else are usually so narrow minded they encourage ordinary people to dislike whatever their pet hobbyhorse is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:51 AM

Joe,

I dunno, Keith. I have thought for quite some time that "followers of religion are a minority in the UK."


It is true Joe, but many of those who do not follow any religion still have religious beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:06 AM

I can see a difference between someone with no religion and an atheist, beyond semantics.

People who believe in a guiding hand and a common purpose, outside of normal existence, can't be described as atheist. If those same people see no need to worship or praise this abstract concept nor fear its retribution and, therefore, belong to no organised group, they would rightly be described as having no religion.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:07 AM

clutch, straw, clutch.

"The main driver is people who were brought up with some religion now saying they have no religion. What we're seeing is an acceleration in the numbers of people not only not practising their faith on a regular basis, but not even ticking the box. The reason for that is the big question in the sociology of religion."


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:00 AM

"I think that a pluralistic society is far healthier."

Well, it depends. If by pluralistic society you mean that anything goes, I think it needs qualifying. A fully pluralistic society in political/social terms would include socialists, conservatives, fascists, revolutionaries, antisemites, Islamophobes, homophobes and mysogynists, all given free rein. Some things are just wrong and should be opposed. In extremis, the law may be invoked to maintain human rights and proscribe hate speech. I think that religion has done, and is still doing, far more harm than good. It is your human right to embrace whatever beliefs you want to. It is an abuse of someone else's human rights to force religious instruction on children. Many people of faith will use a number of excuses for why this should be sanctioned, including vilification of people like me who oppose it even though its traditional and promotes a cosy sense of community among like-minded people. If your definition of a pluralistic society includes the right to sign up your child to a very adult club at birth and make them sit under classroom crucifixes and chant mindlessly repetitive prayers in an attempt to brainwash them, then I'm not with you. That's certainly what happened to me.

By the way, I don't think the word "belief" belongs in any definition of atheism. An atheist is a person who admits to not knowing whether there's a God or not and who lives his or her life fully free of any shackles that God or any of his adherents might impose. That should not be taken to imply a fence-sitting so equally balanced that the pointy timber on top of the fence is digging uncomfortably into one's scrotum, legs akimbo. Au contraire, if you look carefully from one side you can just see the tips of my fingernails showing at the top.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:21 AM

"An atheist is a person who admits to not knowing whether there's a God or not"

Isn't that an Agnostic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:31 AM

I define an atheist as someone who categorically states and believes that there is no such thing as a God or gods.

As Backwoodsman says, someone who isn't sure whether there is a God or not is surely an agnostic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:02 AM

"can no longer practice Christianity and all children are expected to learn a little about all 'religions'.
Why a problem?
I should have thought it's a necessity to understand other cultures and religions, especially in a multicultural society.
As a fully committed (though totally inactive) atheist, I really don't have any religion being taught as separate philosophies in schools as long as it is in the context of all religions and not that one is "the true religion and all others are "wrong" and practiced by "sinners", which has been the case up to now.
It would be a shame to lose all those lovely folk-tales - unfortunately, the beutiful language has been naused-up by the facile adaptation in the New English Bible (shudder)
Religion should be an guide to how we treat one another rather than a rigidly drawn up and compulsarily applied set of rules imposed on us from childhood.
Religion is the result of primitive man's attempts to explain the world around him/her - much of it has been overtaken by science.
It seems ludicrous to me that, in this day and age people should have to fight for the right to teach children how old The Grand Canyon is because it runs counter to the teachings of the Bible.
Religion has become one of the world's major problems because of the misuse it has been put to, by politicians and churchmen alike
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:11 AM

"any religion being taught as"
Should read any problems with religion being taught"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Anyone who professes absolute certainty that God doesn't exist (or that he does exist, come to think of it) is misguided. God's existence has been placed by his adherents, quite deliberately, beyond the scrutiny of science, therefore it isn't possible to say that he certainly doesn't exist. It is possible to say that, by all application of logic, evidence and reason, the probability of his existing is vanishingly small. That's as good as it gets for a thinking atheist, and it's pretty good. If you want to call us atheists agnostics at the far end of the spectrum, I won't argue. Or you could say that an atheist is an extreme agnostic. We all know what we mean. I've never liked "atheist" because the word defines us within the context of a ludicrous and misguided notion, God. I prefer be defined within a logic and evidence-based context, though I may fall short of the ideal myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:59 AM

I rather like the verse from Grantland Rice, on the off chance there is a god he may think like this.

"For when the great scorer comes
to write against your name,
he writes not if you won or lost-
but how you played the game"

A lesson perhaps for many people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 09:09 AM

It's amazing how many atheists play the game right without bothering to look over their shoulders though, innit? I'm reminded me of a friend who died a few years ago. At his funeral, a religious service insisted on by his kin, the pastor regaled us with how he'd led such a good life by dint of his Christian values. He hated religion and would only go near a church for a wedding or funeral, and even then he never mouthed the prayers or mimed the hymns. Christian values my arse. He had his own values, and he was an exceptionally fine man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:38 AM

It's not religion that's the problem.
It's the belief that everybody should believe the same things as you.
It's the belief that only YOU are right.

You don't have to be religious to be "holier than thou", and I despise the license that attitude gives some people to sneer at others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:51 AM

Agreed wholeheartedly
"It's not religion that's the problem.
It's the belief that everybody should believe the same things as you.
It's the belief that only YOU are right.

You don't have to be religious to be "holier than thou", and I despise the license that attitude gives some people to sneer at others. "

Could the word "religion" be changed to "knowledge" and be inserted as the motto of the BS Section


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:57 AM

The thing is that most of the major religions are evangelistic and require their members to convert others if they possibly can. I've been accosted many times by Muslims persuading me to become one too, as otherwise my husband shouldn't be associating with me (!) and certainly not married to me. Christians too feel obliged to turn everyone else into Christians. It's part and parcel of religion to gain adherents at every opportunity.

I've attended two humanist funerals fairly recently and found them very moving and appropriate. They celebrated the lives of the deceased and music was played which expressed their achievements and interests.

You're right Jeri, no-one should be sneering at anyone else simply because they feel superior in their beliefs.

However, lessons about all the religions are in my view very useful in helping children understand different cultures and practices. That way, we all know about eachother and knowledge begets tolerance. I had to learn about Diwali and Passover etc when I was teaching, in order to cover the topics in RE. I was actually quite ashamed at how ignorant I was. It wasn't about converting anyone, but explaining and removing any prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:09 AM

We got trouble, right here in UK cities, it starts with t a capitol T that rhymes with tooth and that means truth. I tell ya we got trouble. right here in in UK cities. One fine night they leave school or work for church when scarlet women and atheist men take a detour to the pub full of Folk or Rag Time, SHAMELESS music. So parents grab your son and grab your daughters from the heathen jungle animal instincts, mass hysteria, social chaos.

Friends an idle brain is the Devil's playground,

I tell ya we got trouble, right here in U K cities, it starts with t a capitol T that rhymes with tooth and that means truth. We surely got trouble right here in UK cities. We got to figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:14 AM

The Music Man?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:42 AM

The oldest profession, religion sales


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 11:49 AM

"It's not religion that's the problem.
It's the belief that everybody should believe the same things as you.
It's the belief that only YOU are right"

If you send your child to a school where he will told that God and the Bible are the unalloyed truth and where he will be made to chant prayers and sing hymns full of certainties, you must be wanting him to believe the same things as you. You must at least believe that you are more right than people of other belief systems. Otherwise, if you possessed any intesegrity at all, you wouldn't do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 16 - 12:00 PM

"It's the belief that only YOU are right."

Doesn't every person who follows a religion believe this though? Their most fundamental, core belief is that their god/s exist and everyone else who thinks otherwise is wrong? To admit they might be wrong in their believe in their deity would undermine their entire worldview, a hard truth to face.

This is perhaps the single biggest philosophical difference between a true scientist and a true believer, and I'm not sure it's a difference that is reconcilable. Of course there are lots of scientists of faith and I'd like to chat more with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 May 16 - 12:35 PM

I've never liked "atheist" because the word defines us within the context of a ludicrous and misguided notion, God.

I find myself in the strange position of being in total agreement with Steve Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 16 - 01:04 PM

"The oldest profession, religion sales"
A dear Jewish friend of mine, Tony Rose, last heard of running a pub in Stockton, once made a living selling Dayglo plastic Buddhas on the Portobello Road.
Before leaving London, he ran a pub on the corner of Marylebone Road and Baker Street, charging double the price for a pint to visiting Americans on the strength that "This is where Sherlock Holmes drank".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 01:15 PM

If I ever think about it, I am somewhere on the agnostic / atheist spectrum....

It helps that my parents abstained from having me christened, or ever allowed religion to enter our home.

Studying moral philosophy in my early 20s mostly helped cement who I am ever since.....


As I see it, some atheists are more actively fighting to reject religion...


I have a futile wish religion no longer existed, and would rather humanity eventually grew up and ignored it,
and stopped indoctrinating and damaging new generation...


At this stage in the 21st Century [ie.. only last week], we are still reading news headlines and stories such as...


"Ofsted warns over children at risk of 'indoctrination' in illegal schools"

"Thousands of children face indoctrination risk at 'hundreds of illegal schools'
... being taught in unregistered, technically "illegal schools", mostly Islamic or Jewish
"

"Thousands of children taught in 'illegal schools' "

and so on.....etc...etc....

Right at this moment the headlines are still updating...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 01:35 PM

Well children have been perfectly legally indoctrinated in several major religions for many centuries. And when you're told you must believe in something, perhaps under pain of ostracism or eternal punishment or deprivation, indoctrination may be too kind a word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 16 - 01:59 PM

The brainwashing I did get from C of E school was still enough to counter my parent's good intentions,
and effed me up with a few confused ideas about life and afterlife...

Confused doubts and fears that I couldn't shake off entirely until my 20s... 😧


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 16 - 02:42 PM


"It's the belief that only YOU are right."

Doesn't every person who follows a religion believe this though? Their most fundamental, core belief is that their god/s exist and everyone else who thinks otherwise is wrong? To admit they might be wrong in their believe in their deity would undermine their entire worldview, a hard truth to face.

This is perhaps the single biggest philosophical difference between a true scientist and a true believer, and I'm not sure it's a difference that is reconcilable


Well, Stu, I have no doubt plenty of people approach religion like that. but I don't and Joe's post above says to me he doesn't either.
We won't get into formal philosophy if you don't mind, because I think you were using the term informally, but in my view that isn't the important difference: more important is whether you think there is one, complete and invariant way of looking at the world, or whether there can be many, each covering different aspects. And that is not a 'true scientist' versus a 'true believer' difference, but an approach to styles of thinking. Or if you want to put it another way, it is whether I think 'my being right' automatically implies everyone who disagrees is wrong. For religion, in so far as I think I am right, I don't think that means people who think differently are wrong.

This is not really unusual: for the vast majority of things in our life - favourite music, football team (to give Steve's frequent example), art, whatever - we are quite content to recognise that people look at things a different way to us, and while we happen to think we are 'right (in some sense)', we don't think that means everyone else is wrong.

I don't want to turn this into yet another 1000 post thread on stuff covered elsewhere, but I did want to explain to Stu that far from "admitting [I] might be wrong in my belief in [my] deity undermining my entire worldview", it is an essential part of my belief system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:13 PM

There should be an amended version of the sharp declaration "we are right!" into something more truthful like, "by self interest we are right". This way scientists and the faith based share a corrupted but common ground.

Or have I missed the point DMcG?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:15 PM

Christians now a minority

Ad not a fucking minute too soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:38 PM

People who believe in a guiding hand and a common purpose, outside of normal existence, can't be described as atheist.

Wal, mebbe not. A-theism, by definition, is a conviction of the absence of (a) god. But it is perfectly possible to believe in other kinds of "guiding" influence(s) and spiritual purposes outside of normal existence, without having to invoke some singular entity as the repository of those things.

Some folks, for example, believe that individual spirituality is the core nature of being, and that the combined (and sometimes confused) sum of all those many points of being adds up to the common hologram we choose to consider our mortal plane.

Others believe in cosmic principles which cause recurring patterns of balance to come about in the universe, but do not bother to personalize them into an identity such as the one often ascribed to this "God" fellow.

In any case it is disingenuous to say that "religion" has fallen just because of a shift in favorite kinds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 16 - 03:45 PM

This news doesn't excite me too much. In fact, I don't care. It's immaterial. What I have been eagerly waiting for is for nasty, quarrelsome, rancorous, opinionated old gits to become a minority in the UK, but I fear I will still have to wait a good deal longer for THAT to happen. (grin) After all, it would be rather like waiting for the French to stop drinking wine. Or for the Germans to stop creating compound words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:01 PM

"A-theism, by definition, is a conviction of the absence of (a) god."

Not by my definition it isn't, and I am one.

"Some folks, for example, believe that individual spirituality is the core nature of being,"

Indeed. If you want some amusement, try asking them what on earth they're talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:04 PM

Amos, your observations are both expansive and concise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:43 PM

In other words, they are very wide in the narrowest sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 16 - 04:44 PM

Steve:

I don't need to ask, as I understand perfectly.

I suppose you can make the word atheist mean whatever you wish, but you have to pay it a little extra. The Greek prefix "a-" means absence or nullification of, as in adiabatic and amoral, asymmetry, atheism, asexual, and acyclic. IF you espouse a-theism, you are asserting the nonexistence, absence, or nullity of one or more gods, not so? If not, please try to explain the distinction you are making.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 May 16 - 05:12 PM

Someone said that one with God, is a majority. I expect the poll is pretty much accurate, and actually it is in accordance to what the bible predicts. However, though the Anglicans and Catholics ....at least the wishy washy ones that don't trust the bible anyway half the time...are losing numbers ,where I live there seem to be more churches than pubs.   And what about this idea that we cannot say that our own beliefs are right, what's wrong with that as long as you don't persecute anyone else for believing otherwise. But seems to me, that the most vocal evangelicals are the angry sounding atheists that want to enforce their baseless beliefs on society and education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:24 PM

You understand perfectly what they're talking about, or you understand perfectly that they're talking hippie bullshit?

The Greek prefix "a-" does indeed mean without. What it does not mean is anti. Atheists of good will don't really go round asserting things. They go around advising what it is intellectually erroneous to be asserting. Generally speaking, we do a lot of indulgent smiling and shrugging. We haven't really got anything to assert. A good atheist will always tell you that he or she fully respects the beliefs of religious people. Why anyone should believe in total nonsense is beyond us, of course, though we understand about suspension of disbelief when it's used to enjoy good films or operas (which often have the silliest possible storylines), and when we are firing up the imaginations of our children (we do have a responsibility to ensure that, ultimately, they know what's myth and what's truth, a responsibility which, sadly, is routinely shirked by people who raise their children within religious faiths).

I don't assert the non-existence of God. I don't do it because I don't know whether there's a God or not. If you think that disqualifies me from being an atheist, tough. You don't know whether there's a God or not. Pete doesn't know whether there's a God or not and Joe Offer doesn't know whether there's a God or not. The Pope doesn't know whether there's a God or not. Everybody's an agnostic or nobody's an agnostic. I prefer the latter, because no human ever born knows whether there's a God or not. It's just that some of us are humble enough to admit it. A priest or brother in a Catholic school isn't humble enough to admit it, otherwise he wouldn't force the children in his care to chant prayers which assert certainties. Agnosticism is a useless word. Atheism is not a useless word but it's a bloody annoying one, because it defines perfectly innocent people in terms of religion, a human invention, and that isn't right. But I still am one. I can live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:33 PM

Steve:

Your expanded explanation clarifies beautifully, for which thanks.

Why you choose the label atheist (absence of god) rather than a-gnostic (not knowing one way or the other) is an interesting puzzle.

If someone says that they --through personal spiritual epiphany or taking mushrooms or wearing green headphones--have come to "know" God, it seems to me that within their own vocabulary they are perfectly within their rights to say and mean it. After all, an Infinite Spiritual Power is not exactly objective, the way a molecule of hydrocarbon is, and therefore not subject to the rules of objective replicability that we hold engineers and scientists to.

It therefore seems to me that those are agnostic who see clearly that they do not know , and those are gnostic who say they do. Unless, of course, they are just lying through their teeth in order to get at choirboys, or some such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 24 May 16 - 06:34 PM

I don't like the idea of "indoctrinating" children. I also don't like schools whose main focus is teaching children how to think, as opposed to what. I believe that people may have to develop that skill without help, and somehow, they manage to do that.

My mom made me go to Sunday school, but it was at a church where questions were encouraged, and literal thinking (think "creationism") wasn't, and the concept of "parables" was clear. We visited other local churches to see how they did things. I went to my friend's Catholic church to with my mom's approval, and thought it was cool and strange. I eventually thinking that there were so many different religions that ONE of them couldn't be the only true way. I think we all look for some righteous path, whether it's religion or just how to treat other people. I think if whatever it is makes us better, than it's a good thing.

In short, I don't care if people belong to my club, as long as they haven't committed to following the Path of the Asshole.

Amos, I get what you're saying, and this is a small quibble, but "atheism" means "without a god". This doesn't necessarily mean a person has been convinced there is no god, only that they have NOT been convinced there is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 07:56 PM

I choose the label atheist for no better reason than that it's a convenient single word which effectively defines one aspect of me without my having to go into labyrinthine explanations every time. It's a word I've never approved of, for the reason I've mentioned twice already in this thread. As for agnostic, it's a word that has lost credibility because it spreads itself far too widely. You may think me an extremist for saying that no-one on the planet knows now, nor ever knew, whether there's a God or not. That would make us all agnostics. To make things worse for this poor word, agnostics can be people who don't give a damn and who have better things to do than think about it. Even worse, agnostics can be cowardly types who are too scared by their religious upbringing to think for themselves, or, worse still and disgustingly expediently, people who just want to retain a bit of insurance. I suppose I have to accept that a few, just a few people, may be genuine agnostics who have explored the matter of God as long and as thoroughly as their intellects allow, but who still can't make up their minds. Well, they should take heart from the fact that they are, at least, honest brokers, and that they have at least something in common with heathens like me. But they're wrong!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:22 PM

This is not a subject that a dyslexic can summarize in four words but I had Steve pegged correctly from the outset which is like fresh air.

Steve, the points Amos makes are not as narrow as a grammatical detail.

I feel I tolerate Gnostics better than they can tolerate me.
If you are in their temple on their dime I suppose they have a right to make whatever demands they deem necessary. That needs to end at the public sidewalk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 16 - 08:29 PM

Oh, I was just playing with words, Donuel. I just fancied having a quick spar with Amos. He's been gracious so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:45 PM

If there are professional Etymologists, Amos and Rapparee are giving it away for free in MOM. There are undoubtedly many others but literary excellence is like an alien world due to my innate wiring or lack of it.   
Its funny but
As my actual eyesight improves (by 80%) my peculiar mental picturing diminishes.
Perhaps the brain with less stimuli creates its own stimuli just as it does in isolation tanks.

oops there goes my irrelevancy alarm...but maybe this phenomena is related to religious "vision".


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 16 - 10:48 PM

I'll read through this later. I just dropped in to say thank goodness there are no guest posts. It makes life much easier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 25 May 16 - 04:39 AM

""admitting [I] might be wrong in my belief in [my] deity undermining my entire worldview"

Thanks for the reply DmG, interesting stuff. Does admitting you might be wrong in your belief in a deity not mean you have a smidgeon of doubt about the existence of that deity? If it does, how do you address that doubt? Reflection? Scripture?

I'm not sure the analogy with football teams etc is valid though; these are opinions and not beliefs, not the basis for forming a moral code, for example. We accept that other people differ in opinions about football teams and art because we understand these opinions are subjective and however vociferous in our support of our stance, it's only the ignorant who would say theirs was the only correct opinion.

I would class myself as an agnostic, having left religion behind many years ago. I do think about this subject a lot though, but as a scientist I find the scientific method the best way to understand the universe and ourselves, and form a moral framework on the basis of empirical fact. However, science doesn't shelter the homeless or run food banks or give succour to those whom find themselves in distress or suffering; people do that far better and that is why on a local level, churches, mosques and synagogues are vital for our communities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 05:43 AM

That can't be gainsaid, Stu, but imagine a theoretical world in which there was no religion, no churches, no synagogues, no mosques. Do you think that we'd shelter the homeless less, run food banks less, give less succour to those in distress? I don't think so. Kudos to religions for doing those works. We atheists/agnostics/ don't-give-a-damners lack the organisation to operate as they do, which is an observation only, not meant as sour grapes. Local religious groups are vital for our communities in today's context. It's the provisos that come with them that I can't stomach. The baggage, if you like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 11:43 AM

Of course, we can never be sure what a religionless society looks like for sure. However, I think that by and large , in the western world at least, it has been churches and believers who have been in the forefront of social care and transformation of society from the early Christians rescuing abandoned babies in the roman world , through to monastery social and hospital work, through to the Sally army expansive work. .....and much else beside. Of course , that's not to say that atheists don't get involved, but then, they too are part of a society influenced by Christianity , so we can not even be sure they would be the same or not in a religionless society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 16 - 11:44 AM

Jeri said: "I also don't like schools whose main focus is teaching children how to think, as opposed to what. "...

I'd have to hear that explained in more detail, as it seems just backwards to me. I have often dreamed of an educational system that does teach people, from about 2nd-3grade on HOW to think: meaning the rules of logic, rationality, linguistic clarity to avoid equivocation and the identification of the various informal fallacies

This would not tell anyone what to think, but would merely help them to avoid the most egregious errors in the way they explain & defend the 'whats'. One could still 'believe' in various debatable concepts if they understood the status OF their beliefs... (though I assume 'clear thinking' would generally reduce the number & force of subjective beliefs)

As Steve Shaw has said so well, "no one knows whether there is a god or not". Still, the idea of an "intelligent design" leading to an afterlife, salvation and the efficacy of prayer is very tempting and psychologically helpful for many. In one sense, it does not NEED to be 'true' to be comfortable. I, personally, do not feel that lack of metaphysical beliefs make me, or my life, any better OR worse... I try to make sense & 'do good things' because, as Mammy Yokum in Li'l Abner said, "Good is better'n evil 'cause it's nicer."

   I think I can recognize 'evil' in various ways without any formal religion explaining to me in complex ways thru the intervention of arcane books and theologians who interpret those books for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:17 PM

I also don't like schools whose main focus is teaching children how to think

No, God forbid that children were taught how to think.

If that pertained, we wouldn't have Trump as a presidential candidate, or Climate Change Deniers, or Holocaust Deniers, or the Governors of North Carolina & Maine.............................


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:19 PM

I too assumed jeri had got it the wrong way round. In my opinion, at present, kids are told what to believe , and usually not told the evidence that is against what they are told is true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 16 - 12:42 PM

"I have often dreamed of an educational system that does teach people, from about 2nd-3grade on HOW to think: "
Surely that should be "think for themselves" which is a little different from threatening them with the fear of hell-fire and damnation to accept the unproveable and the basis of blind faith.
You may introduce them to all ideas, but one it becomes a dogma it becomes brainwashing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:00 PM

I thought we'd get round to that dreary old cop·out, "Intelligent Design", sooner or later. I've had my say about that gross misnomer on other threads before now. Can you really not see that it's blatantly Unintelligent Design? One of the great consolations of my life, for instance, is having always known that I would not ever have to undergo the dire traumas of childbirth. What can have been intelligent in designing so exiguous an exit for so substantial a delivery, with its concomitant agonising effects,? How could anyone have ever thought that horrible penance, so necessary to the continuation of our very existence, could have been the invention a any sort of 'Loving God' or benevolent deity? Why, they even had to write a whole chapter, to explain it & excuse the cruel old sod of a God, in Genesis; with all that idiocy about fruits of trees of knowledge of good and evil and such patent bummipooze.

'Intelligent design', like Elijah's bumhole! UNINTELLIGENT DESIGN is what we've got. Live with it! -- as in fact we have to do, all the time!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:11 PM

... yeah ... agreed ... I've always believed a benevolent god could thought up a more user friendly way of expelling body wastes...

IBS.. piles.. fissures.. running out of paper.. it's not too much to ask to have been spared all that...???? 🙄

Then again.. evolution has made just as bodged job of it....


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:26 PM

To return somewhat to the title of the thread, do you suppose that, as Christianity declines, Islam rises here in UK? I'm not prejudiced in any way about that (as I've said, my husband is a Muslim) but last week he was actually asked to watch a Government interactive video called 'Prevent' as part of in-school training for all staff.

I had a look at this interesting but rather strange video on Youtube, and it did seem to be aimed at spotting pupils who were being targeted by Muslim fundamentalists/radicals. It appeared to suggest that vulnerable, maybe lonely or depressed young students were in danger of being taken under the wing of recruiters for terrorist groups.
Has anyone come across this 'Prevent' thing? If so, have you any views about it?
My point is that 'religion' may not be falling in UK after all, but that certain sectors of religious adherents are actually flourishing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 16 - 01:58 PM

I'll try an answer you questions, Stu, but in a different order than you asked them, because I find that easier!


I'm not sure the analogy with football teams etc is valid though; these are opinions and not beliefs, not the basis for forming a moral code, for example

OK, they aren't a perfect analogy - nothing is, so let's take a moral code example. You and a friend, A.N.Other, are considering whether the UK politician's second homes dealings were immoral, and you both agree that theft in general is wrong, but that laws in general should be obeyed. Let's suppose you feel that the case is so obviously theft that it is immoral despite being legal,while A.N. insists because it is legal it is moral. You are convinced you are right but if you are fair you can't really say A.N. is wrong, just that he weights the parts differently to you, and that he is entitled to that stance as you are to yours.

Does admitting you might be wrong in your belief in a deity not mean you have a smidgeon of doubt about the existence of that deity?
There are at least three levels to that one.
a) The absolute case: "there is no God". Yes, sometimes. Not very often, but it happens. Dylan Thomas wrote "No man believes who cries not 'God is Not!' and there's something in that. One way of getting a deeper understanding of anything involves running into brick walls occasionally ...
b) The philosophical case: "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." One problem with the word 'God' is that it means so many different things to different people. It is very likely if any two people start talking about 'God' they have quite significant differences in understanding. One of the things that people (largely) agree about God, is that his existence (if any) transcends our ordinary experience. Which makes describing it/him in ordinary words that are non-transcendent almost, or entirely, impossible. Tough one that. And in that sense, I reckon it is extremely likely I do not believe in what you mean by the term.
c) Personal interpretation. My understanding of God is always limited, and always partial. That means at times I can see God as fully embodied in a few mathematical equations, at others shown through nature, at others more like human emotions. All are right, all are wrong, all are incomplete. And in this final sense I'd say I 'disbelieve' in God (in some senses), and 'believe' in God (in other senses) in a way that changes hour by hour.   

If it does, how do you address that doubt? Reflection? Scripture?
Primarily reflection. Pete fired a shot at Christians who aren't fundamentally driven by Scripture. I take the hit: I see it more as exemplars than rules. The one bit I take absolutely solidly is common to most religions and usually referred as "The Golden Rule": it's the one about treating others as you would want them to treat you. All the rest, roughly, is examples of that rule in action in particular situations. But the situation you find yourself in today with certain people doing specific things probably doesn't correspond exactly to anything written. So you have to use your intellect and understanding to come up what seems right. (Which is one of the reasons when people talk about pick-and-mix Christians because they seem to choose some bits of the Bible and not others, it brings a wry smile)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 16 - 02:46 PM

You'll note that *I* did not tout or recommend belief in 'intelligent design'. I merely referred to its widespread acceptance by the hoi polloi as a simple, comfortable concept to cope with the immense complexity of "life, the universe & everything". As a matter of fact, I find it easier to look up, down and around and shake my head at the very notion of it all being 'designed' at all.
   Existence, in all its facets, follows physical laws. No matter where one believes 'everything' came from, once it **happened**, certain relationships between the elements and their elementary particles ensure that certain types of reactions and combinations happen, although in varying amounts in various places. When we observe this, WE are doing so AS a product of the very physical laws we are trying to describe.

Now, as this basic comprehension becomes more widely understood, whether in the UK or anywhere else, it is natural that recourse to metaphysical explanations decreases and church membership also decreases...... although lifelong beliefs and cultural pressures make some of us more... ummm... resistant... to casting off the beliefs of centuries past.

Yes... all that above simply says that 'as science learns more, religion tends to lose its hold'.

As to atheism, agnosticism and skepticism.... people WILL continue to debate definitions. What is important is that **lack of belief**, however you define it or process it, not be treated by believers as 'false'. Non-believers cannot DISprove 'god(s)' anymore than believers can prove him/it/them. In such a system, family, culture, habit and specific educational history will continue to guide every individual's decision about what to think, and if they have learned the basics of the content-neutral HOW to think, they'll do better at coping with life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 16 - 04:54 PM

Yes, I did note that, Bill. Just thought that once the concept itself had reared its head, its hash had best be settled sooner rather than later.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:40 PM

OK, humo(u)r me while I think out loud about this "intelligent design" thing. I've always been a big fan of logic, and I'm convinced that everything in life follows logical rules. We may not yet understand those rules, but I believe there will come a day when we come to understand that the processes we do not understand, are actually quite logical. Things happen, and they have logical consequences.

The world around us is not absurd. We do not live in Alice's Wonderland.

So, I gather that the Intelligent Design folks think that because everything makes some sort of ultimate sense, that there must be One Smart Feller Up There, who designed it all intelligently, in a way that makes sense.

But I don't think the Designer is external. I think the design is intrinsic. The Rules are descriptive, not prescriptive. Nobody made the Rules. The Rules simply describe the way things work. And that's where language fails me. I guess that all I can say, is that it works because it works. And if it didn't follow the process of logic, it wouldn't work; and therefore it would be absurd and would not exist.

Or does absurdity exist, and is that what we call "chaos"?

But there has to be a better way of saying this. My roommate and I did not get very good grades in College Logic; but I'm convinced that's because we were smarter than the teacher, and he didn't understand us. We actually studied the textbook, which taught a modern approach to logic that the teacher didn't like.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:50 PM

Somewhat disappointed lion, at the tone of your post...sounded more like musket. But yes, I do believe in an originally perfect creation. To me it is an historical account, to you it is an excuse for apparent poor design. Either way, there is design which I presume you think arose by accident of evolution. Now that really is a just so story !


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:53 PM

And I agree with punkfolkrocker that The Designer should have come up with a more aesthetic way of "expelling bodily wastes." But I think that logic is not particularly aesthetic - it's functional, though; and the bodily wastes do get expelled in a fairly logical manner. So, I believe that the universe is logical, but lacks the aesthetic taste of a Designer.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 May 16 - 06:56 PM

Dmcg, I was rather referring to believing in the text of scripture, in particular it's historical narrative , more than any rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 16 - 07:11 PM

Pete says: However, though the Anglicans and Catholics ....at least the wishy washy ones that don't trust the bible anyway half the time...are losing numbers....

I think the Anglicans and Catholics trust the Bible just fine. They treasure it as a sacred document that is the basis of their faith. They just don't think it was written to be understood in a simplistic, literalistic manner. They see it as an ancient document that needs to be seen within the context in which it was written. To be understood, it needs to be studied in the same way all ancient documents should be studied - within historical, textual, linguistic, and literary context. But no, it is not a fraud and it is not untrue. It just needs to be understood.

And by the way, many modern Evangelical theologians are beginning to use modern critical tools for Scripture study - historical, textual, linguistic, literary, and redaction criticism. As a result, they came up with the New International Version (NIV), a translation that is intellectually sound and far more understandable than the 1607 King James Version.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 16 - 08:19 PM

Well, on the matter of bodily waste, etc., I think there's something rather Victorian about our somewhat contrived abhorrence. Most other animals don't see things the same way at all. Dogs smell each other's bottoms as a means of recognition and use their urine as a territorial marker. Pigs are very fastidious animals but think nothing of rummaging in pigshit-infested earth In order to find a tasty root or two. Human manure is a valuable soil improver as it happens, and there's absolutely nothing on earth better for starting a compost heap than human urine. And, outrageously, as an inveterate wine-drinker, I'd counsel you to taste your favourite pinot noir from a new perspective. Tell me if you dare that it doesn't have that pleasurable tang of that sucked infant finger that's just been up your own bum...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 May 16 - 09:15 PM

Senoufou:
I have some experience of Muslim societies, and as you say, it's oppressive. The whole community trundles off to the mosque at dawn

Not in Turkey or Bosnia they don't. The majority Islamic tendency in the Balkans (and about 25% of the Turkish population) is Alevi/Bektashi or similar and they don't go to mosques at all.

Your experience is of parts of Africa where Islam has had to adopt some of the most repressive aspects of feudal animism for the sake of maintaining the pre-existing class structure. African Christianity is often pretty brutal in the same way (and just as enthusiastic about exporting misogyny and homophobia to the rest of the world).


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:18 AM

"The whole community trundles off to the mosque at dawn, and for all the prayer times, and fasting during Ramadan etc. I know several who aren't a bit enthusiastic but daren't opt out for fear of condemnation."
That could be a perfect description of the Catholic Church within any Catholic country well within my lifetime, to which yo could add a visit from the priest asking why you hadn't been at mass last Sunday, and if it happened too often, having your name read out in public.
Non attendance could affect your status within the community, even leading to your employment.
Things have changed now, not because the church has seen the error of its ways, but because widespread misbehavior by a large number of the clergy has effected their status within the communities.
Nowadays they look at the poor attendances and yearn for the good old days of what was in fact oppressive in the extreme - the oppressive genii is merely in the bottle waiting to be released, not gone away and one way it hopes for that release is through our children.
In 'modern' Ireland, over 90% of our primary schools are owned and run by the Catholic Church.
In rural areas, if you wish to have your young children taught in a non-denominational school you have to put their name on a waiting list and hope for an available place - if you are lucky enough to find a place, you often have to be prepared to transport them up to 40 miles.
Some overcrowded Church-run schools are demanding evidence of Confirmation before they will accept children.
Despite the clerical abuse and Magdalene Laundry scandals, which still bubble away under the surface, the Church is fighting tooth and nail to hold on tho the minds of children.
Let's not be too smug about the oppressive nature of other religions - "let he who is without guilt" - as the feller said.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 May 16 - 03:39 AM

I agree Jack, my experience is limited to W African Muslims. And my husband is Sunni. And I have found that animism is alive and well in Africa, despite the efforts of imams and Christian leaders to stamp it out.
Regarding Catholicism in Ireland, my mother was a Catholic from Cork and was subjected to exactly that sort of repressive control by the priest. On coming to England, she promptly joined the CofE and never looked back.
But the initial post was concerned only with the UK. My point was that while Christianity is diminishing here, Muslims are flourishing and some sorts are actively recruiting young folk to their cause, which is maybe emphasised by the Government video for all school staff warning about it.
As an aside, I have always found blooming teeth to be a major design fault in the human body. Several of mine are loose, and no doubt I shall need dentures shortly. I wonder if an update (like Windows 10) could be engineered, with no uteri, teeth, bottoms, joints or digestive tracts. These seem to be the parts that cause most trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:30 AM

"But the initial post was concerned only with the UK"
Fine -can't argue with that, but my point has always been regarding religion is that it is a religious problem which knows no national boundaries.
People's beliefs are worth protecting, whether you share them or not, it's the misuse of those beliefs that's the problem and that's applicable to any and all religions.
I have no argument with people trundling to the mosques, temples synagogues or churches if it's a voluntary act.
It only becomes "oppressive" if it is done at gunpoint, or through spiritual conditioning and blackmail.
The overall danger from all religions is when they become toxically mixed with politics - that's what makes headlines and overfills refugee boats.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:54 PM

DMcG - thanks for taking the time to answer those questions, and your candor whilst doing so. Much of what you've written chimes with me as reading your post I realised I thought similarly before I came to the conclusion that Christianity was not for me, after a long period of reflection.


"And if it didn't follow the process of logic, it wouldn't work; and therefore it would be absurd and would not exist."

Logic is a human construct, a function of language and thought and cannot be applied to natural processes at all. Your designer eschews logic as it is not present in any natural system. Natural systems self-organise of course, but this is the result of physics and chemistry, not the guiding hand of a designer and perhaps this might look like it's adhering to logic, but it's not.

Your thought process holds water though, as the idea that all natural processes in the universe are subject to laws contained in a huge set of rules drawn up by a omniscient, all-powerful supernatural being is not in the slightest bit logical, is utterly absurd and and of course neither the rules, or according to current evidence any gods, exist.


"To me it is an historical account"

Demonstrating your self-delusion doesn't help your argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 May 16 - 02:59 PM

@ Pete7* -- Have just looked back at my last post. Afraid I can't make out what you find objectionable in its tone.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:08 PM

Well joe, I soppose the bible is treasured by those that see it as a virtue to reinterpret the plain understanding of scripture . And even Dawkins likes the kjv as literature. I am quite aware that evangelical scholars use various systems of study , and that is good . It is only when the plain meaning is jettisoned in favour of secular consensus that it is wrong. And to suggest that those of us who read scripture according to its plain meaning, and genre is simplistic is begging the question. However, when the text is clearly narrative , and is demonstrably so by textual criticism, we do take that literally.    And it seems to be churches that do retain traditional acceptance of the bible narrative and teaching ,that are often doing better and popping up all over the place. Success of course is not the measure of truth, but it does have a bearing on the OP.                         ........demonstrating your self delusion.....and begging the question don't help your argument either, stu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 16 - 07:15 PM

Where did you copy and paste most of that from, Pete? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 16 - 08:38 PM

Has anyone come across this 'Prevent' thing?

Thought police. Really seriously evil.

There are a lot of papers about it on the sacc.org.uk site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 16 - 10:38 PM

Human nature evolved along tribal community lines for the last 70,000 years with some success. While this survival technique still exists, societal modernism tends toward smaller groups or a solitary lifestyle.

We are adapted to a tribal life but experience it rarely unless it is related to; church, military squad comradery, sport fans, concert goers and political rallies. The TV is now the tribal story teller and the stories preach primarily fear.

We like the communal or tribal experience. When people like soldiers suddenly lose this experience it is a it like PTS. The high suicide rate is among those who have not even experienced active warfare.

When a well adjusted person serves in a religious setting there is very little to worry about. But when a deeply flawed individual seeks out a religious post or education they often choose the worst instincts of competition, arrogance and power. In a sect that espouses greed or god's warrior status, they can be tipped over the edge of reason fairly easily. Tolerance turns to intolerance and empathy can be twisted to be evil. A made up rumor can cause books at home to be put as far away from the holy books as possible until in the extreme, book burning could become the new normal.

The book ends of human nature are the bad apples and the heroic leaders, in-between are the rest of us.

There are bad sects and good sects, each sought out by like minded people. Freedom of religion is no more important than a freedom from religion, each for the right reasons.

A rating system for the sects that are most humane


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 16 - 10:42 PM

...a rating system of sects that are the most humane may be something we should seriously consider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:36 AM

Ah Jack, I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the video rather sinister. It seemed to be encouraging people to watch each other covertly and make dangerous judgements on their observations.
Thanks for the link; I'll look it up.

The video was somewhat wasted on my husband. His English (especially reading) isn't all that wonderful and he hadn't a clue what it was supposed to be about. The government actually paid him for the hour he had to spend, in company with other school cleaners, which I found rather strange. They never come across any pupils, as the school is shut when they arrive. Also, he's a Muslim himself, and felt a bit uneasy that people may be 'watching him' in case he tries to indoctrinate anybody!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:23 AM

Trying to make sense of the Bible is clearly a waste of time with so many different - and ever changing - interpretation of what this and that bit of scripture means.
For example, I was on a thread recently, and a poster wrote that the British Queen won't be going to heaven because, to "quote" Jesus:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Well, this caused an outcry among Christian.

One poster replied that Jesus had been exaggerating when he made the above statement.

Another poster claimed that the Queen isn't really rich! ( She's usually quoted as being the richest women in the UK).

The whole Bible thing is a huge joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:34 AM

Who else remembers "Bumper Fun Books"...??? 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:46 AM

"The whole Bible thing is a huge joke."
In fairness quite an ENTERTAINING joke.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 16 - 10:53 AM

In the UK people are also deeply cynical about the intentions of the establishment and it's institutions, such as the church. The fact the church is so far behind the general feeling of the people makes it irrelevant; the ridiculous fuss over women bishops for example, it's resistance to gay marriage for another.

It's obvious the powers that be are working to their own agenda, and when you get a load of old men trying to cling to power by oppressing others then that's guaranteed to make sure people don't take the church seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:15 AM

Where the church resists homosexual marriage, it is hardly being establishment ,or a tool of such, since it is the established govt that championed the redefinition of marriage..             Steve, I don't even know how to copy and paste. It was not copied or pasted !            Tunesmith , I suppose you might have a point in that there are texts that can be interpreted variously, or applies in different ways.   I hope you apply the same logic to evolutionism , since it's followers can't agree on how it (supposedly) works !


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:17 AM

.......or as per your words , it's "a huge joke "


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:33 AM

I don't care if it's God's or evolutions fault.. I've still had another afternoon wasted with IBS,
and trying to convince my mum on the phone that £35 for shopping deducted from £70 = £35 left for next week... 😣

Need to catch a train now to help her out before she gets even more confused and upset.

That's just plain and simple family 'love' nothing at all to do with religion...


There are really more important things to care about than an old book...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 27 May 16 - 11:56 AM

Pete from seven stars link says:

"I hope you apply the same logic to evolutionism , since it's followers can't agree on how it (supposedly) works !"

It seems as that the only scientists that disagree with the principle of evolution are devote Christian scientists.

And, of course, scientists are constantly working towards a better understanding of all things scientific, unlike "well-adjusted Christians" who continue to cling to ancient, discredited texts.

Mankind will not be able to move forward and create a better, fairer society until religion has been totally removed from the workings of the state because religions insidious presence is far to influential.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 16 - 12:19 PM

"hardly being establishment ,or a tool of such, since it is the established govt that championed the redefinition of marriage."
That harking back to the time "were they were the Establishment" or else held it in their pockets.
The reason Catholic countries in particular are still fighting fo sexual rights is that, in many of these places, the word of the church is the law.
It's only since their grip was loosed, thanks to their track record being exposed, that some of them have taken a giant step into - well.... the twentieth century at least.
Following the magnificent victory in the same-sex referendum, the Bishop of Dublin grudgingly described the result as "a wake-up call for the church".
The right wing of the church are still snoozing away in their bedc.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 16 - 02:32 PM

Well I think I have as much right to define marriage as anyone else, including whoever it was who defined it in the first place. Who was it, anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:11 PM

Where the church resists homosexual marriage, it is hardly being establishment ,or a tool of such, since it is the established govt that championed the redefinition of marriage.

What the fook? This is even more nonsensical than your usual fundagelical literalist creationist garbage, pete.

You just having a bad day?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 16 - 03:55 AM

"Steve, I don't even know how to copy and paste."

Yet you claim to understand physics, chemistry, biology, zoology, cosmology, astronomy, geology, palaeontology, mathematics etc etc better than any highly trained, expert practitioner of these sciences who thinks the universe is over 6000 yrs old (which is pretty much all of them).

Blimey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 05:33 AM

Well, Pete, when I discern signs of fluency, reasonable punctuation, half-decent sentence structure, capitals more or less In the right places and at least a smidgeon of cohesive thought, who could blame me for suspecting that the work is not entirely of your own hand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:12 AM

Oh gosh, capitals more or less In the right places. Oh, the irony! 😳


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 16 - 11:18 AM

I have established that some religions are doing their job and some are not. A consumer satisfaction poll of the practitioners and former members would be very revealing.

Technology can do many of the things that used to be the sole domain of religion. If tech can do it better, it is religion's responsibility to do it better, cheaper and faster. How could religion advance?
They could abolish their old non compete clauses, they could down play their insistence upon old time religion. They could market their wares better by advertising that they are extremely valuable at times of catastrophic destruction of government, resources and order. They would attract a lot more wannabe preppers.

Any thing religion can do tech is beginning to do better.

Tech can even provide Personal epiphany via drugs, electrical brain stimulation of the parietal lobe, sensory deprivation, amygdala manipulation and real time self guided tours of the brain.

Stop me now because I can keep going.

We can and should rate religion on a exploitation-humanitarian scale
Religion has dropped the ball.
Religion will NOT save us from the next asteroid impact
Once the singularity arrives we will finally meet GOD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 16 - 01:22 PM

So mr brainbox, I suppose you are thoroughly acquainted with all those disciplines !? I am , admittedly giving in to a hint of sarcasm here , stu. But , why not tell me just one thing that demonstrates microbes to man evolution , and that can have no other interpretation of the data .....,just from what you specialise in.                                    Steve, I shall take that as a backhanded compliment lol !                      Tunesmith, your reply evaded my point, and not only that, but what you did suggest is mistaken anyway. Besides those who question evolution who are believers in God , there is a list of academic Darwin doubters , and among those who persist in the evolutionary faith are those who recognise that the current widely held dogma is deeply flawed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Tunesmith
Date: 28 May 16 - 02:17 PM

OK Pete, what's your alternative to evolution?
And, I do hope you're not one of those "the world began 6000yrs ago" nutters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:38 PM

Ok tunesmith, apart from your obvious prejudice against biblical creationists, tell me what convinces you that the impossible can happen without a creator, however much time you throw at it .


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:39 PM

Why yes he is, Tunesmith. Whatever you do, don't get him started on how fossils are all fakes, how radioisotope dating is a fraud, how soft tissue can't possibly be preserved, how we "evolutionists" can't achieve repeatable, observable science (as if he and his creationist cronies have ever observed or repeated anything), how you can have such a thing as a creationist scientist, how the Bible must be literally true because the Bible tells you that it's literally true, and how Darwinism is an evil, bogus religion. Well no, do get him started if you want to. If you do, it'll be because you have one of two motives: either you want to convert, or you want to have a bloody good belly-laugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:47 PM

... what's impossible..??? .. it happened...!!!!!

Doesn't mean we necessarily know, or ever will know, exactly how or why... ????

.. But I can live with that... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM

Stupid, in a "this should be obvious sort of way" answer: it's not impossible. Why are people arguing about this shit (and I mean "Shit") again? Or still? Spontaneous development of function of reliably inoperative brain cells probably IS impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 06:54 PM

When he says: "tell me what convinces you that the impossible can happen without a creator, however much time you throw at it ," what he means is that the impossible can't happen without the infinitely more impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 07:06 PM

Well, people have been arguing about "this shit" since time immemorial, and will continue to do so for a good few more centuries at a guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM

Yep, Steve, but it's not the same people saying basically the same things. I suppose I have to admit I have a problem with futile repetition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 16 - 08:46 PM

..and God said.. "Let there be Shite...".... 😇


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 16 - 09:04 PM

Well, Jeri, as long as we're talking we're not punching each other's lights out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 16 - 11:44 AM

I hope you don't think that is the entire set of possibilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 16 - 06:29 PM

And Steve is usually the one who brings the subject up at the drop of a hat. I could let it go , but I think it worth correcting him for the benefit of anyone else who might want to know what I actually do say. Fossils are not fake and creationists expect there to be a lot of them from the upheaval of the flood.          Radioisotope readings are not fake, but they don't give consistent dates, and assumptions about the unobservable past have to be accepted to arrive at the dates. Different methods have often given wildly different dates , so why trust them so much? Sometimes rocks of known recent age have rendered readings from eons past.    He is not far out with the soft tissue though of course omitting why, ie practical science puts a limit on how long soft tissue can last , under various conditions but such are found often in specimens far too old.       Evolutionists can of course achieve repeatable observationaly verified science , but not in that area, because, believe it or not, time passes and it's gone.         If you can have an evolutionary scientist, you can have a creationist scientist (as historically ,most have been) and to say otherwise without substantiation , is just begging the question.      Yes, I trust the bible , and you trust evolutionism.    Yes, I believe evolutionism is a faith position , and religion , just as some evolutionists have also conceded.       So, tunesmith why do you trust it ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:18 PM

Well there you go. A Pete tour de force. How can you resist, tunesmith? 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 16 - 07:29 PM

creationist scientist (as historically ,most have been) and to say otherwise without substantiation , is just begging the question.

Good lord, (lower case "L"), Pete is still trying to redefine everything to fit his world view, isn't he? "Creation Scientist" is a classic oxymoron. And his nonsense about "without substantiation" and "begging the question" simply mean that he can speak English without understanding it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 16 - 08:30 PM

Good grief, Acme, I held back on pete's abuse of English yet here you are going for the jugular. Do you think I'm going all soft and benign in my old age?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 16 - 10:52 PM

I dunno. Sometimes less is more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:26 AM

Neanderthals

I wonder how creationists explain this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:02 AM

Pete - If humans evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? Get out of that one my fundamentalist friend!

And then explain to me why fossils are arranged in layers containing distinct collections of organisms rather then being jumbled up, as they would if deposited by a flood.

And then explain to me how speciation works. And plate tectonics. And snail evolution.

For how I view these things, refer to the current scientific literature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:53 AM

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/neanderthals-likely-built-176-000-old-underground-ring-094948286.html

Try this if the link doesn't work


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 May 16 - 07:59 AM

...... how radioisotope dating is a fraud ......

Of course it's a fraud. I've been on loads of radioisotope dating websites and they're either after your money or trying to get round the immigration rules. Avoid them if you're looking for a long term relationship.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 16 - 09:48 AM

Scripture, Bible versions, Papal infallibility, Excommunication, strict law, bureaucratic decree and official condemnation, all of this war of words is not the form or function of religion that people need, want or desire.

None of those pursuits do anything for the child newly bullied, the wife widowed yesterday, the hungry next door, the young lady wrongly adored or the soldier now deformed.

People want a religion that is the canvas they can paint a participation of shared interests, recipes, art, sport and perspective, hurt, loss and celebration.

Religion like the invisible framework of dark matter to make visible matter coalesce and draw together with a friendly gravity.

Scripture does not have a damn thing to do with it.

From this perspective you can see that mudcat is a religion that does some o the important work religion can do.


Yes it is a religion. It is one in which Steve Shaw, technocrats and atheists participate and who do so with invaluable perspective and without punishment.







I know most of my intent and perspectives are misunderstood and some of it is a waste of time. So goes it for Joe as well. But we try.

Vivre l'difference et the similarities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:14 PM

I wonder if a religion exists where the emphasis is on kindness and compassion, practical altruistic help for those in need and a deep love of nature and wildlife? Perhaps one which discouraged aggression and vengeance? And actively promoted understanding and acceptance of diversity?
I think I'd subscribe to that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:30 PM

Check out Tibetan Buddhism as a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:44 PM

"I know most of my intent and perspectives are misunderstood and some of it is a waste of time. So goes it for Joe as well."

So it goes for us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:50 PM

Senoufou - if you drop the requirement for it being a religion, you might very well find all that and more in Humanism..
.. or dare I say.. errrrrrmmm... socialism....????? 🤔


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 16 - 12:57 PM

I suppose one doesn't actually need an 'ism' at all. One could just have a personal religious standpoint and try to abide by it. There's really no need to join an organised faith. I could be in a religious group of one!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:08 PM

"I could be in a religious group of one!
"
Sounds like a couple of our local churches (nearly) nowadays.
I remember a vicar telling of a colleague addressing his congregation with the words, "do you know each other?"
Jim CaRROLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:19 PM

Senoufou - can't argue with that..


Is 'benigncouldn'tgiveamonkeysaboutitallism' a recognized option...???


...independent autonomous state of mind is where my progressive 1970s education lead me... 😎

Shame kids 4 or 5 years younger had to grow up under the Thatcher regime... 😭


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 16 - 01:37 PM

Hahaha punkfolkrocker! I too was educated and influenced along rather progressive lines. I left home very young and have always 'fended for myself' and travelled fairly widely. I suppose that's led me to form my own views and become a bit of a Refusenik. If one is distanced slightly from recognised paths, one can assess mainstream tenets rather more objectively. A Cat Who Walks By Herself.

I know, Jim. Our village church is huge (and draughty!) and there are sometimes only two or three shivering folk sitting under the tiny electric heater.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 May 16 - 02:43 PM

Raggy, your link did,nt work for me. You could just tell me what your point is though, rather than posting links without putting an argument yourself. But last I heard it was established they were a species of homo sapiens , as it was found they interbred with other humans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:04 PM

"But last I heard it was established they were a species of homo sapiens , as it was found they interbred with other humans."

They've never been a species of Homo sapiens. Ever. Closely related species can interbreed; Homo sapiens interbred with the Denovisians too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:27 PM

Ah stu, surprised at you. I thought you were a fully informed evolutionist.b you should know that humans only(supposedly) came from one line of apes.          Organisms in fossil layers ? There is a general order as might be expected from 1 not living in the same areas , and 2 some creatures could get further and higher as the flood prevails. However, I think that if you were to look , there are instances of organisms washed and buried together.   If you want to know how speciation works try Darwin . Pity he speculated beyond the bounds of speciation within the limits of each organism. Plate tectonics , would that be slow as now , or rapid plate movements as perhaps occurred at the flood.      And the last ones real easy.... , the snail ,it evolved into a mudcatter who challenged you all to show him some evolution lol !


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:31 PM

More utterly incorrect and ignorant bullshit, pete. Where do you get this garbage from? And more importantly, WHY?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fall of Religion UK/Christians now a minority
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 16 - 03:53 PM

"Ah stu, surprised at you. I thought you were a fully informed evolutionist"

I'm a palaeontologist, not an evolutionist. And I was taking the piss out of the latest creationist trope; dimwits the world over are tweeting this ill-thought out crap like mad monkeys.

"you should know that humans only(supposedly) came from one line of apes."

You do realise there have been many species of human in the past? Do you understand the concept of descent from a common ancestor. Do you understand anything to do with science?


"However, I think that if you were to look , there are instances of organisms washed and buried together"

I didn't say there wasn't. Read my post again.


" Pity he speculated beyond the bounds of speciation within the limits of each organism"

This sentence is total gobbledygook.


"Plate tectonics , would that be slow as now , or rapid plate movements as perhaps occurred at the flood."

What flood? Peer-reviewed evidence links please.


Pete, you might be a nice bloke, but you really should go back to stoning sheep-shaggers.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 18 July 2:41 PM EDT

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