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BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

bobad 05 Oct 16 - 02:09 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM
bobad 05 Oct 16 - 01:54 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM
bobad 05 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM
bobad 02 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 04:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 10:35 AM
Teribus 29 Sep 16 - 02:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM
Teribus 29 Sep 16 - 01:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 02:57 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 01:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM
Teribus 28 Sep 16 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM
Teribus 28 Sep 16 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM
Teribus 28 Sep 16 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 02:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 16 - 02:11 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 16 - 08:04 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 16 - 04:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 16 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 07:34 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 16 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 03:04 AM
bobad 26 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 16 - 06:35 PM
bobad 26 Sep 16 - 05:02 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 16 - 04:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 16 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 16 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 16 - 01:17 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM

There are now two Labour threads. This one is utterly toxic and infested by trolls. We don't need two threads. I appeal to the moderators to shut this one down.


Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

The whole point of my last two posts, Stu, is that I AM "giving it a rest," so your non-moderatorial injunction is not appreciated, thank you very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:01 PM

There are now two Labour threads. This one is utterly toxic and infested by trolls. We don't need two threads. I appeal to the moderators to shut this one down.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:54 PM

Uncomfortable truths eh Shaw. Tell us again why you think you're entitled to define anti-semitism for Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

A concerted effort by two trolls on the same day to revive a toxic thread. Very suspicious.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

Labour antisemitism has been high in the news again in the last few days.
It is a current and live issue.
You may wish it was dead, but it is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:27 AM

A dead thread. You're trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

Schwarz-Friesel is one of the most quoted experts on anti-Semitism in both international academic literature and the German media.

In her numerous publications she analyzes and exposes new manifestations of old anti-Semitic sentiments — disguised though they might be — employing much of the same Jew-hatred that has been shaping European discourse throughout the years, even when officially outlawed.

These analyses are evidence that recent anti-Israeli tropes demonizing the Jewish state are actually work-arounds of old anti-Semitic sentiments that have been with us for two millennia.

Zionism is being equated with racism and Israel is being called an "apartheid regime," posing the greatest danger to world peace. Such ideas have nothing to do with the reality on the ground. Instead they reflect classic anti-Semitic stereotypes that have been with us for 2,000 years and that brand Jews as murderers and an omnipresent evil force in the world.

There is a global Israelization of anti-Semitic discourse. The articulation of traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes by projecting them onto Israel is by now the most dominant manifestation of modern Jew hatred.

TOI


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

Wiki,
"Holocaust Memorial Day (HMD) (27 January) is a national commemoration day in the United Kingdom dedicated to the remembrance of those who suffered in The Holocaust, under Nazi Persecution, and in subsequent genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur."


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM

I see Carroll is up to his usual - continually repeating a lie in an attempt to manufacture more anti-Jewish sentiment - he is obsessed.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

" She was just ignorant of the fact that they do share Holocaust day."Whre have they ever been included or even mentioned?
Utter indecent and inhuman crap
It took Germany up to 2011 to invite a Roma as guest of honor at German'y's Holocaust Day - Britain never has, nor probably ever will
How is it possibly an insult to the Jewish people to put that right
Apartheid beyond the grave - sick-sick-sick
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:49 AM


It is not Antisemitic to suggest that othr victims of the Holocaust should share Holocaust Day, b#y any stretch of the imagination


No. She was just ignorant of the fact that they do share Holocaust day.
Walker had just not bothered to check that her beliefs and prejudice were just anti-Jewish propaganda.

To suggest that other victims can't is Apartheid beyond the grave and a conformation of everything that has gone wrong with Israel

It would be if it was true, but it is just lying propaganda. Holocaust Day DOES encompass all acts of genocide since WW2.

It is indecently grotesque to exclude victims from such an event

It would be, but it is not true. It is just lying anti-Jewish propaganda


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:34 AM

It is not Antisemitic to suggest that othr victims of the Holocaust should share Holocaust Day, b#y any stretch of the imagination
To suggest that other victims can't is Apartheid beyond the grave and a conformation of everything that has gone wrong with Israel - a dream shattered by fascistm
It is indecently grotesque to exclude victims from such an event - show me a definition that does
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:17 AM

If suggesting that non Jews should be remembered on Holocaust dat is now antisemitic,

They are. Walker had just not bothered to check that her beliefs and prejudice were just propaganda.


If Jackie Walker is expelled it will be wrong

She is.

nothing she said can be described as Antisemitic

That is just your opinion, and Steve's, but almost no-one in the Labour Party agrees with you. Your view of what constitutes antisemitism is suspect.
You claimed that Shah had not made antisemitic comments.
Her antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you two.

You just do not see it even when your faces are rubbed in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

If Jackie Walker is expelled it will be wrong - nothing she said can be described as Antisemitic
If suggesting that non Jews should be remembered on Holocaust dat is now antisemitic, it is proof positive that there is no longer a working definition of that term.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM

Not true Greg.
I was the one who kept objecting to Israel being discussed.

On this thread, Jim attacked Israel on 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM , and in the other thread he did it on 15 Aug 16 - 02:40 AM .


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM

Now the other thread has become devoted to Middle East politics, perhaps we can discuss the original subject here again.

Says the Professor, who derailed the thread in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 10:35 AM

Now the other thread has become devoted to Middle East politics, perhaps we can discuss the original subject here again.

The latest development is that Jackie Walker, previously suspended over allegations of antisemitism but later re-admitted, has been suspended again!

BBC,
"Momentum vice-chair 'suspended by Labour' amid anti-Semitism row"

"Earlier, the TSSA union said it would "seriously reconsider" its support for Momentum if Ms Walker remained in place and the group said its steering committee would meet on Monday to seek her removal.
But a spokesman for Momentum, the left-wing grassroots organisation set up in wake of Jeremy Corbyn's 2015 election as Labour leader, said: "Members of Momentum's steering committee are seeking to remove Jackie Walker as vice-chair of the committee."

It can not be argued that this comes from anti-Corbynites. These are pro-Corbynites.
BBC again,
"Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA union, which backed Momentum and Mr Corbyn's leadership, said on Thursday he was "deeply saddened that a fellow member of our Labour and trade union family holds such anti-Semitic views" and said she should not be allowed to "remain active within our party".
"I am asking Jackie that in the interests of unity she resigns at once from our party and also as vice-chair of Momentum.
"If she doesn't, both the Labour Party and Momentum need to act to get rid of her at once.
"We would seriously need to consider our union's support for Momentum if she is still in post by this time next week." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37526320


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 02:13 PM

The "anti-Semitism" row continues to rumble on with calls from those within the Labour Party for Jackie Walker to be expelled permanently.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:52 AM

Steve,

Desperate post from Keith. He doesn't recognise the conspiracy against Corbyn even when it rears up and bites him on the bollock.


It has not. Nor has it bitten BBC, Guardian, Indy, Huff or any other rational commentator.
It is just a convenient conspiracy theory to explain away the hard facts.

And anyone who thinks that the Tories have ever occupied the "middle ground" is clearly as mad as a box of frogs. Unspeakable and malevolent rubbish, as ever.

" When David Cameron moved the Conservatives to the centre it caused problems with the Conservative right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31973051"

Does one of the Bs stand for box of frogs Steve?
Are they guilty of being "desperate" and disseminating "unspeakable and malevolent rubbish?

Of course not.
You got it wrong again, and villified and ridiculed me for getting it right again.

You would look less ridiculous if you avoided name calling and ridicule when so often you are subsequently proved wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:38 AM

"facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel" - Jim Carroll

Care to enlighten us as to how that could possibly come about?

Perhaps you could tell us what position British born Hertsmere Labour activist Jeremy Newmark has in the Israeli Government? He after all as actual elected head of the JLM and former CEO of the UK's Jewish Leadership Council, was the man who sanctioned the recruitment and appointment of Ella Rose to the newly created post of Director of the JLM.

It would appear that this "fact" of yours, like so many of your other "facts" is just pure fantasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:57 PM

Still no response to facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel

If it is a fact, support it with some evidence.

Still; no description of the "antisemitism" Labour has been accused of.

Shah's antisemitism has been described.
I am not in a position to know about the rest of it, but the NEC is, and it has also been referred to by numerous prominent members and officials and in Corbyn's speech today, so stop making yourself ridiculous by denying it.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 01:57 PM

Still nothing other than denials
Still no response to facts such as the head of JLM being appointed by Israel
Still; no description of the "antisemitism" Labour has been accused of.
Still no numbers involved.
A trial without specified charges and unnamed accused.
Instead we have unspecified charges against unspecified people against a party that has no record by a group of politicians who are virtually all linked back to a regime that is desperately trying to offset a boycott of goods brought about because of that regime's record of Human Rights abuses and atrocities - the only ones that haven't been were opponents of and have just been thrashed by a leader who supports the rights of the Palesnians and is an outspoken opponent of the people who have instigated these charges in the first place
Think we're done here, don't you?
G'night sweethearts
Jim Carroll
"The question you have to ask yourself is, why? Why has this issue been resurrected with a vengeance, so soon after its previous outing was disposed of as a farce? Is it because of a handful of allegedly antisemitic social media postings from Labour members? Is it because of the tongue-in-cheek map posted by Naz Shah? That's not believable. The only plausible answer is, it's political. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the factual situation; instead, a few suspect cases of antisemitism – some real, some contrived – are being exploited for an ulterior political motive. As one senior Labour MP said the other day, it's transparently a smear campaign."

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

Jim,
You refuse to address the implications of the undeniable links between the Israelis and the attack on the Labour Party.

It is eminently deniable!! No evidence or any fact has been produced.

So far almost every example of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party has been attacks on Israeli policy and behaviour - not on the Jewish people

Not true. Can you find a single such example? NO!

If there is antisemitism in the Labour party tell us what it is and how it manifests itself - so far, you have refused to do so.

I am not in a position to know, but the NEC is.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader

The whole Party, apart from the recent entrants, overwhelmingly did too, so nothing exceptional there.

t's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established -

No it has not! Instead of just repeating your vacuous claims, show us the evidence. Good luck with that.

To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established.

Yes it has!
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party"
" The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

All cases so far have been established as being criticism of Israel, not the Jewish People

No it has not! Instead of just repeating your vacuous claims, show us the evidence. Good luck with that.

All of these statements are based on provide information,

No they are not!

whereas all yours are opinions backed up by nothing.

They are backed by quotes from numerous prominent members and officials, the entire NEC and Corbyn's speech today.
You lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 09:59 AM

"The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader"

Not really surprising that is it? Considering that Corbyn counts Hamas and Hezbollah as being his "friends" along with his total inaction and total failure in exercising any leadership in curbing the excesses of the undoubtedly anti-Semitic elements amongst his supporters (Jewish Members of the Labour Party have complained about it and I have no cause to doubt them and can see no reason for them to deliberately lie about it)

"It's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established - you want to prove that she wasn't - do so."

I believe that Ella Rose is a British Citizen, who was born and raised in the UK, where she went to University. Upon graduating she got a job at the Israeli Embassy, a job she subsequently left to take up her job with the Jewish Labour Movement - now at what point in that career path was Ella Rose ever part of the "Israeli Regime"? I would like to point out that it is not uncommon at all for Foreign Embassies to employ what are known as "locally employed personnel".

"Remind me of how Theresa May set about removing obstacles when she became Prime Minister!!

HUH??? What on earth has that got to do with anything??

"To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established."

Ah so the urgent and immediate recommendations to combat racism (anti-Semitism) in the Labour Party tabled by Baroness Royall were a figment of our imagination were they? What about the recommendations tabled by Labour's newest Peer Shami Chakrabarti who was awarded her peerage after how many days as a member of the Labour Party?

The BDS Campaign is deliberately directed against and affects the people of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

The Jewish Labour Movement voted overwhelmingly against Corbyn as leader
It's links with the Israeli regime by having a leader who was appointed by them from their own ranks have been established - you want to prove that she wasn't - do so.
Remind me of how Theresa May set about removing obstacles when she became Prime Minister!!
To date, no evidence of actual Antisemitsm has yet been established.
All cases so far have been established as being criticism of Israel, not the Jewish People - this is common sense and humanity - not Antisemitism.
All of these statements are based on provide information, whereas all yours are opinions backed up by nothing.
Put up or go talk to your mate - I'm really not interested in prolongling this time-wasting nonsense.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 07:03 AM

No facts just opinions

No link between the Israeli Government and the Jewish Labour Movement

By the way the head of the JLM is it's Chairman not it's Director.

Your Link:

"Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), a leading voice in recent claims that the Labour Party has a problem with antisemitism, has published an extraordinary attack on Jewish critics of Israel, seemingly suggesting that those dissenting from support for Zionism are not actually Jewish."

You mean the same as:

The "Momentum" Movement, has mounted an extraordinary attack on critics of Jeremy Corbyn, seemingly suggesting that those dissenting from support for Jeremy Corbyn are not actually real "socialists" or Labour Party Members.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 06:16 AM

"So the JLM was formed in order to combat the BDS Campaign was it?"
Read the links
No it was not.
"the embassy sees the once defunct JLM " (Jews for Justice)
It eas resurrected and a regime employee was appointed as its head.
Quote in full -again
"Jewish Labour Movement woken by Israel's kiss
A former officer at the Israeli embassy in London, Ella Rose, has been appointed as the new director of the Jewish Labour Movement. From Asa Winstanley's account it seems as though the embassy sees the once defunct JLM as its anti-BDS weapon of choice."
Jews For Justice"
If oyu can't be arsed to read the information put up and respond to it honestly, then I can't be arsed to respond to you.
Haven't you had enough humiliation?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:51 AM

"the fact that the Israelis have revived the J.L.M. and placed one of its own supporters at its head in order to combat the boycott campaign"

What fact?

What connection between the Israeli Government and the Jewish Labour Movement?

The person currently and the person previously at the head of the JLM were both elected, nobody was "placed" anywhere.

So the JLM was formed in order to combat the BDS Campaign was it? Must have had amazing foresight if indeed that was the case the JLM being formed in 2004 while the BDS Campaign didn't form itself until 2005.

Alternatively a movement established in 2004 waits until 2016 and the retirement of it's Chairman to combat and confront an organised campaign that got underway in 2005.

Either way it is totally illogical and ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

You have the fact that the Israelis have revived the J.L.M. and placed one of its own supporters at its head in order to combat the boycott campaign
You choose to ignore it.
That information came from Jews who oppose the regime, your ignoring it is proof that you are more interested in defending and extremist right-wing regime than you are defending the Jewish People.
You move on to even more unsubstantiated quotes from political infighters.
You refuse to address the implications of the undeniable links between the Israelis and the attack on the Labour Party.
So far almost every example of "antisemitism" in the Labour Party has been attacks on Israeli policy and behaviour - not on the Jewish people
THAT IS NOT ANTISEMITISM BY ANY DEFINITION - THE ISRAELIS ARE NOT THE JEWS AND THEY HAVE MADE A POINT OF ATTACKING AND DENIGRATING JEWS WHO OPPOSE THEIR POLICIES
If there is antisemitism in the Labour party tell us what it is and how it manifests itself - so far, you have refused to do so.
WHAT IS THIS SO-CALLED ANTISEMTISM IF IT EXISTS?,/font>
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:20 AM

BBC on Centre Ground.

"Although the voters were moving leftwards, the Labour Party was seen as even further left, and it was not until 1997, when Tony Blair had abandoned the extremes of left-wing Labour policy and moved his party to the centre, that they won."

""Most voters are in the centre-ground. Most party members and most MPs are not," Dr Tom Quinn, one of John Bartle's colleagues at Essex University, told BBC Radio 4's World at One.
"When you see parties which track closely to the centre-ground like Blair's New Labour, it causes internal tensions. So there were always problems between Blair and the trade unions, and Blair and the Brown-ites. When David Cameron moved the Conservatives to the centre it caused problems with the Conservative right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31973051


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 02:11 AM

Jim,
The Group is a political one pledged to defend Israel

Yes it is. What is wrong with that?

- which, in the present circumstances, means the present regime.

Bollocks!. Not this or any previous regime, and it has never suggested this or any were above criticism.

Steve, you must be desperate or dishonest to claim it is all a "conspiracy" and that the Guardian, BBC, Huff Post, Indy etc are all gullible dupes with no clue what is happening.
You are just making yourself ridiculous.

The Independent, 14 hours ago.
"Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis denounces 'appalling anti-Semitism in Labour Party'
Loyal supporters are deserting Labour because of the issue, Mr Lewis says
Rob Merrick Deputy Political Editor @Rob_Merrick 14 hours "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-clive-lewis-antisemitism-speech-praise-rousing-appalling-party-a7333396.html


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:04 PM

Read tha article Keith
The Group is a political one pledged to defend Israel - which, in the present circumstances, means the present regime.
It doesn't matter anyway - in order for the leaflet to be "antisemitic" as claimed, it would have to be attacking the Jewish People - it doesn't - it attacks a group
Accusing a political or workers group criticising the Israeli Regime of being "antisemitic" would be like accusing anybody criticising say the TUC of being Anti-British The Israeli establishment is not, nor does it represent the Jewish People as a whole
This makes my point perfectly - all these claims of Antisemitism aimed at the Labour Party are traceable back to teh Israeli propaganda machine.
If you want to prove that antisemitism is a serious problem within the Labour then you are going to have tyo start coming up with examples stroger than open and obvious criticism of Israel - "produce the body or you have no case"
Jim Carroll
"Jewish Labour Movement woken by Israel's kiss
A former officer at the Israeli embassy in London, Ella Rose, has been appointed as the new director of the Jewish Labour Movement. From Asa Winstanley's account it seems as though the embassy sees the once defunct JLM as its anti-BDS weapon of choice."
Jews For Justice


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 04:10 PM

Desperate post from Keith. He doesn't recognise the conspiracy against Corbyn even when it rears up and bites him on the bollock. And anyone who thinks that the Tories have ever occupied the "middle ground" is clearly as mad as a box of frogs. Unspeakable and malevolent rubbish, as ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM

Jim,
It views Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.

Can you substantiate that? And, what is wrong with being a Zionist?
They are just people whose "aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel". Anything wrong with any of that?

Steve,
Not all "Labour Jews" (Christ on a bike) are lifelong members

Of course not!? They would just be Labour voters, now down to about 8% of Jews from 18%
As you know, I was referring to those lifelong Labour members and activates who are reporting serious antisemitism in the Party, many of whom I have quoted.

What they ALL are are ardent opponents of Jeremy Corbyn,

Most are Labour MPs, and 80% of Labour MPs are indeed ardent opponents of JC. It is not a Jewish thing. Just probability.

The issue has been thoroughly investigated and concluded, though clearly not to your or their satisfaction.

It is clearly not concluded. It is very much a live issue. look at all the articles I have linked to just from recent days, and there were many moree. Today it was on BBC World at One, and in the Guardian 7 hours ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/jewish-labour-members-unified-party-faiths-views

What they want, and what YOU want, is all criticism of the actions of Israel,

It is not what I want, and I do not believe they want it.
Just another wild assertion that you will never be able to support with any single fact. Why do you do it?
Same reason you call me names. Its all you can do.

You and they are part of the pro-Israel lobby,

You said that you are pro Israel Steve!!

your bloody Tories,

Not my Tories actually. Only when they alone occupy the middle ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 09:23 AM

Not all "Labour Jews" (Christ on a bike) are lifelong members and not all supporters of that setup, or of Labour Friends of Israel, are Jews. What they ALL are are ardent opponents of Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong anti-racist and opponent of antisemitism, who are doing their damnedest to undermine him at every opportunity by wilfully exaggerating an issue that has been properly and honestly dealt with, naturally getting the right-wing gutter press, idiots like you and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby's lackeys to keep the fire aflame. The issue has been thoroughly investigated and concluded, though clearly not to your or their satisfaction. What they want, and what YOU want, is all criticism of the actions of Israel, nothing at all to do with true antisemitism, to be suppressed. You and they are part of the pro-Israel lobby, which sucks almost as much in this country as it does in the US for its unprincipled and undemocratic methods. Well tough luck. Bugger off and vote for Theresa May and her scummy bunch of Tory racists instead. But do yourself a favour and STOP LYING about the one party in this country that has made a genuine effort to root out antisemitism, and it certainly had less cause to do so than your bloody Tories, rotten to their racist core.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:41 AM

JLM attacks critics of Israel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM

"The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel"."
Jim Carroll

The Jewish Labour Movement (UK), founded in 2004, is the successor organisation to Poale Zion. It is affiliated with the Labour Party in the UK as a Socialist society. It is also affiliated with the World Labour Zionist Movement, a faction within the World Zionist Organization, and has unofficial ties to the Habonim Dror Labour Zionist youth movement.
It views Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.
Its aim is to promote "a secure, progressive, just and successful State of Israel". It is affiliated to the World Labour Zionist Movement. It campaigns against racism generally (especially the British National Party) and seeks to promote a viable peace plan to the Israel-Palestine conflict. With regards to the latter it upholds the rights of the Palestinian people to live at peace with their neighbours on the basis of a Two-state solution.[1]
In February 2016, Louise Ellman MP retired as Chair of the Movement and Hertsmere Labour activist Jeremy Newmark was elected as her successor. Newmark is a former CEO of the UK's Jewish Leadership Council and a previous spokesperson for the previous Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks. Sarah Sackman and Mike Katz were elected as Vice-Chairs of JLM. Sackman stood as Labour's candidate in Finchley and Golders Green in the 2015 General Election. Katz was selected as a Labour Party Candidate for the GLA in the London Assembly election, 2016.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 07:34 AM

Steve, we are not Jews.
If Labour Jews say they are experiencing antisemitism, who are we to call them all liars?
These are lifelong Labour members and activists, and this is a live current issue.
Anyway, name calling and ridicule should have no part in serious discussion and it should shame you that you need to resort to it.

I have smeared no one and resent another false accusation from you.
I have just quoted those involved.
Is the Guardian guilty of smearing?


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 06:42 AM

Tbose at the "sharp end" of attacks are simply being criticised for blowing up a minor issue that has already been comprehensively addressed out of all proportion for their own nefarious ends, the most significant of which is to stifle any and all criticism of Israeli policies. We can't help it if you dishonestly won't see it, and, as for name-calling, YOU are smearing the good names of hundreds of thousands of Labour members who are one hundred percent intolerant of all forms of antisemitism, the overwhelming majority, so do stop coming the victim, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:34 AM

Guardian yesterday,
"Wes Streeting, the Labour MP who chairs the all-party group on British Jews, said on Monday it was wrong to suggest Labour was a "hotbed of antisemitism", but nonetheless had a problem it needed to tackle.

Streeting told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that a leaflet distributed outside the Momentum event labelled the Jewish Labour Movement "a representative of a foreign power, Israel". He said: "This isn't ambiguous. This is a classic antisemitic trope, at our conference."

Streeting said Corbyn could do more to tackle the issue: "They're not going to listen to people like me. But they do place a lot of faith and stock in Jeremy.

"And as someone who has a track record of tackling racism and discrimination, he has in the past year had a golden opportunity he hasn't yet taken up to show real leadership on this and to help navigate through some of the problems that we face in terms of antisemitism."

Another Labour MP, Luciana Berger, told Today: "There are too many examples of where my Jewish parliamentary colleagues, where my Jewish council colleagues, where Jewish members have been attacked because they are Jewish. We need to stamp it out." "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/26/corbyn-urged-to-show-leadership-in-tackling-antisemitism-within-labour-wes-streeting-labour


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:04 AM

Steve,
In general they do not support the current actions of the extreme right-wing regime in Israel, seeking a more inclusive and less combative way forward.

Of course not. They are lifelong Labour activists! Jews have been an integral part of the Labour Movement from its beginning.
All they are objecting to now is the antisemitism that has very recently become prevalent, along with misogyny and homophobia.

It is silly of you to pretend it is not a significant issue and to call me names and ridicule me for showing that it is. It is a live issue.

Sky News yesterday,

"By Jason Farrell, Senior Political Correspondent
Jewish MPs are outraged by the latest claims of Momentum activists that allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party are exaggerated."

"National Chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, Jeremy Newmark was invited to the Momentum event and challenged the room to produce examples of a "conspiracy to silence legitimate critique of the state of Israel" within the Jewish community.

He claimed that Ms Walker's "use of an anti-Semitic myth" about the slave trade caused "hurt and pain" and led to verbal abuse of a Jewish Labour member.

He argued that there was a serious problem of abuse in the Labour Party"

"Jewish MP Luciana Berger responded to comments from the Momentum meeting, saying: "Those of us at the sharp end of abuse and attacks will be the judge of whether anti-Semitism has been exaggerated or not." "
http://news.sky.com/story/jewish-mps-angry-at-claims-that-anti-semitism-is-exaggerated-10593739


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:44 PM

Oh! Smeg.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:35 PM

OH! Bubo!


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:02 PM

It is from something called The Institute of Palestine studies

Oh! Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:13 PM

The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel".

Well it patently is, and is is not antisemitic to say so. The organised groups of Israel supporters in Labour align themselves with the Israeli Labor Party. They are not my favourite bunches of people but they have every right to be advocates for Israel. In general they do not support the current actions of the extreme right-wing regime in Israel, seeking a more inclusive and less combative way forward. I still don't like them and regard them as wrong-headed, but, to dig up an old cliche, Labour is a broad church. Sorry, Keith, but you are clutching at straws and you are risking the safety and security of the Israeli people by constantly upping the ante. I guess that makes you rabidly antisemitic. Ironic, really, but true.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

Huffington Post, 9 hours ago.

"Labour Party Conference 2016: 'Anti-Semitic, Racist' Leaflets Distributed Outside Momentum Event
It comes after a series of reports of abuse against Jews at the four-day event."
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-party-conference-2016-anti-semitic-racist-leaflets-distributed-outside-momentum-event_uk_57e8c2eae4b0e81629aa08f4

East London and West Essex Guardian Series-9 hours ago

"A LABOUR MP has described controversial leaflets distributed at this week's party conference as "classic anti-Semitic trope".

The literature, reportedly handed out in and around the Labour Party's annual conference in Liverpool, claims the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) "acts as a representative of Israel".

Like many of his Labour colleagues, MP for Ilford North Wes Streeting has expressed major concern over the leaflets and the "undeniable" issue of anti-Semitism within the party.

Speaking on BBC Radio this morning (September 26),
he said: "I wouldn't want to give people the impression that the Labour Party is a hotbed of anti-Semitism, where every event you attend is full of members who have a problem with Jews – this is not the case.

"But this is a problem we have to tackle - because as a party committed to equality we should hold ourselves to higher standards."

The chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on British Jews added that his newly-re-elected leader Jeremy Corbyn has failed to show "real leadership" on the issue."
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/14764480.Controversial_leaflets_are__classic_anti_Semitic_trope__claims_MP/?commentSort=ol


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:43 PM

I don't care whether you, the Beeb or the Guardian think it's a story. At least the latter two, who are obliged to actually report stuff that goes on in the world, present a balanced picture, which you signally did not in your post. As ever, extremely dishonest of you. You didn't even MENTION Jackie Walker at all. What she had to say was far more relevant and significant than the bitter rubbish spouted by your much-vaunted racist supporters of the despicable Israeli regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:36 PM

jim,
"everything that points the fingr at Israel is untrue and witness statements are inadmissible"

None of those "eye witnesses" appeared until long after the event and it has been easy to show that some of their claims are lies. There were no killings or rapes in hospitals.
You have also posted silly inventions from people who were not there at all.

The Phalange were in the camp from 18.30 on Thursday until 08.30 0n Saturday. Friday was the only whole day.

On Friday Siegel says, "a film crew from Visnews came. They did some filming, then left. Late in the afternoon, representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross appeared; they evacuated a half-dozen critically injured children, whom they placed in other hospitals around the city. They also left us oxygen, blood and other vital and much-needed supplies. Finally, the ambassador of Norway came by."
None reported any signs of massacre, so it is unlikely that Israelis outside the camp could!

On Saturday morning The Phalange came out and ICRC, other NGOs and reporters went in. No secret movement of bodies or burials would be possible.

Steve, the BBC do not think it a non story. There was a lot of it on the Today Programme this morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:17 PM

Yes, Keith, but you utterly FAILED (a trait of yours) to even MENTION the far stronger contribution of Jackie Walker to this tired old non-debate. You must think we're stupid, Keith, but, unfortunately for you and your bigotry, some of us choose to read the link. The Labour-riddled-with-antisemitism con is burnt out. It's now just you and a few bitter anti-Corbynite "friends of Israel" (who are actually no such thing - I'm a damn sight bigger "friend of the Israeli people" than any of 'em, including you, as at least I want to keep the Israeli people out of harm's way - Jesus, have you SEEN Bibi cosying up to Trump over his apartheid wall? 😂😂😂) who keep on trying to resurrect it. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can see that Corbyn is a damn sight more opposed to all forms of discrimination and racism than any of the tawdry scumbags who you either support or keep bloody quiet about. Let's take Farage and Johnson as prime examples, shall we? My advice to you, Keith, is to give it a rest. Permanent would be good, you troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:17 PM

Nonsense Keith - everything contradicts Israel's/your version of events - the facilitating of the massacre, the burial of the bodies, the allowing the killers to escape - every singly argument is shot down in flames.
You say you are putting forward Israel's case yet here you describe anything put forward by Palestine as "all bollocks" - that sounds fair!!
I think if you pair had cut to the chase at the beginning by saying "everything that points the fingr at Israel is untrue and witness statements are inadmissible", we wouldn't have wasted all this time
I'm not prepared to waste any more - you offer nothing other than denial.
Unless you come up with some evidence between you, this is finished
Now, go wipe that egg off your face.
Jim Carroll


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