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BS: Gravity solved?

Greg F. 20 Feb 16 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 16 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Feb 16 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Dave 20 Feb 16 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Musket 20 Feb 16 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Dave 20 Feb 16 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Dave 20 Feb 16 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Peter from seven stars link 20 Feb 16 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 16 - 03:22 PM
Donuel 20 Feb 16 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 16 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Rt Rev Musket 20 Feb 16 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 16 - 01:34 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 16 - 12:30 PM
olddude 20 Feb 16 - 12:19 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 16 - 12:10 PM
olddude 20 Feb 16 - 11:15 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 16 - 07:49 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Feb 16 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Feb 16 - 04:10 AM
olddude 20 Feb 16 - 02:00 AM
olddude 20 Feb 16 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Feb 16 - 01:31 AM
olddude 20 Feb 16 - 12:15 AM
olddude 20 Feb 16 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 10:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 10:55 PM
Bill D 19 Feb 16 - 10:51 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 07:51 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 19 Feb 16 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 19 Feb 16 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 07:12 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 03:47 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 19 Feb 16 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Feb 16 - 01:26 PM
Bill D 19 Feb 16 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Musket 19 Feb 16 - 12:46 PM
GUEST 19 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 12:27 PM
olddude 19 Feb 16 - 12:16 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Feb 16 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Feb 16 - 11:41 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 05:56 PM

That's right, Goofus - acuracy IS a big deal!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 05:46 PM

OK..approximately 1950 years ago.....big deal.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 05:01 PM

" Same goes to shimrod , concerning whom, I do not plan to push what I say is a suggestion , and look up sources , when he never provides any evidence to support his assertions."

If you read my posts, they mainly consist of questions - which you can rarely provide satisfactory answers to, Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 04:08 PM

Donuel, Swift has detected 1000 Gamma Ray Bursts in 12 years, some of these will result from the formation of black holes, but not all. The rate won't increase because its limited by the sensitivity of the detectors. It isn't clear that the mission will last long enough to work in tandem with JWST, in any case JWST is not a rapid reaction telescope and is the wrong thing to work in tandem with SWIFT. The Large Synoptic Survey telescope may be, but again its not clear if it will be running during the lifetime of the Swift mission. Networks of smaller telescopes are the thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 04:03 PM

Why is Goofus giving a Wikipedia description of Jeffrey Archer? I said the bible plagiarises other superstitions in the same way Archer borrows from other authors.

Odd fucker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 03:56 PM

Donuel, re the telescope that the Hawaii court revoked the permit for, stick it on La Palma, it would be welcome there. Just as good a site, just not US territory thats all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 03:43 PM

No it wasn't GfS, it was written about 60AD, and now its 2016, my maths says thats less than 2000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 03:41 PM

Bill, you are moving the goal posts again. You already know that I don't claim to be able to give conclusive evidence of the details of my Christian faith , though if we keep to the subject of origins , I think the biblical model is more in line with science , whereas evolutionism is often opposite to the evidence. Same goes to shimrod , concerning whom, I do not plan to push what I say is a suggestion , and look up sources , when he never provides any evidence to support his assertions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 03:22 PM

Donuel: "We know much less than half of what goes on at the event horizon, inner horizon and the so called singularity."

Agreed.

Sounds remarkably like, "For our knowledge is always incomplete and our prophecy is always incomplete, and when the complete comes, that is the end of the incomplete.

When I was a little child I talked and felt and thought like a little child. Now that I am a man my childish speech and feeling and thought have no further significance for me.

At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me!"

Written over 2000 years ago!!

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 02:51 PM

At this very moment the irrational abnormal act of burning out the eyes of an astronomer is happening. It wasn't just Galileo that had religion stop his search of the heavens. In Hawaii there is a mountain top where priests say the gods live. So does a new telescope project and the courts he ruled in favor of the priests.

Religion and Astronomy still clash today. It is not just the religionists that hi jack science threads instead of exploring their own religious threads.

What must entice the religionists is the admission of cosmologists that we do not know what is happening at certain boundaries in our universe. We know much less than half of what goes on at the event horizon, inner horizon and the so called singularity.

The swift telescope will confirm in allegiance with the Webb the formation of one black hole a day and the number of black mergers changing the very shape of the universe.

But as long as earth bound telescopes can have their eyes shuttered by religion we can count on religion to help us learn less.

Science does not forbid religion from choosing knowledge. he Vatican has its own astronomy program. Lets hope religion need no longer forbid science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 02:06 PM

'rational'??, 'normal'??
According to who? You??
..and you are so 'rational'?, 'normal'? to judge that for everyone else???

As far as you referencing Jeffrey Archer, here, from Wikipedia:

Jeffrey Howard Archer, Baron Archer of Weston-super-Mare (born 15 April 1940) is an English author and former politician. Before becoming an author, Archer was a Member of Parliament (1969–1974), but resigned over a financial scandal that left him almost bankrupt.[2] Later, after a revival of his fortunes from the royalties of his best-selling novels, he became deputy chairman of the Conservative Party (1985–1986) before resigning after another scandal, which would lead to the end of his career in elected office.[3] He was made a life peer in 1992. His political career ended with his conviction and subsequent imprisonment (2001–2003) for perjury and perverting the course of justice, which followed his second resignation. His books have sold around 330 million copies worldwide.[4]"

This has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. methinks you are really stuck and bound up by a political conviction(if you will) of convenience of toleration of powerlessness.

Try Love...it works!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Rt Rev Musket
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 01:35 PM

I'm sure it was Magic Steve, fair play.

The Goofus's of this world have another definition of magic though.

The snag is, the supernatural attributes of the bible references to the big JC were nicked in Jeffrey Archer fashion from Mithras and other superstitions.

Dan asks, quite reasonably why the mocking of religion is doing the rounds in this thread. It's because some on here are trying to splice it into reality and the thread title itself, attempting to dumb down science to the paltry level of theological reasoning, and you know, that's not only insulting but has held back research and progress ever since we started thinking further than the next hunting trip.

It's only through dismissing nonsense that the wonderful and exciting discoveries of our universe have been able to develop.   The real universe is far more exciting, wondrous and thought provoking than the dismal limited visions found in religion. Some on here would have children hampered by seeing the make believe at the equal level of reality.

It isn't only insulting and dangerous, but must be embarrassing for normal people who happen to feel comfortable with aspects of faith.

Mind you, it's rather fucking hilarious reading Goofus saying that rational people have closed minds....


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 01:34 PM

Great!!...another tidbit for you...six days after my operation, I had to see the cardiologist (A different cardiologist than the one I referred to in my prior post), for a consultation before release, from the hospital, I sat down across from his desk, with my daughter, and the first words out of his mouth were, (verbatim) were, "Your recovery was nothing short of miraculous, I've never seen anything like it"...Later, in the same meeting, he also said, "By the way, I've heard your music on YouTube, and Man, there is a lot of healing in that music!"
On my five week follow-up visit, I had to meet with him again. This time I brought a stack of CD's, to which I gave to EVERY attendant, Nurses, technicians, assistants, etc, on the floor that I was on, and gave the cardiologist three copies, and the cardiology department three copies, with permission to copy and use those pieces, free of charge, no royalties or or licensing fees...just, as I said, "Hey man, if this stuff works, use it all you want, if it helps heal people."
It is now being used in six hospitals in four states(at last count), in both cardio and psych therapies!!
As far as I know, when I think about it, it's not the notes, or the melodies, but rather, where my head was at when I recorded it, and somehow that is picked up by the patient. The healing then comes from within that patient....repeat: As far as I know ...
Magic??..who knows how we 'define' it.....but there is a power in the unseen elements of Life, that religious institutions or political ideologies(most any of them), that is NOT being tapped on. Instead, they leave their 'members' both disillusioned, and 'in the dark' while posing as solutions...for the problems that they have instituted, encouraged, and prolonged!!..even to the point of just making stuff up, for their 'followers' to think, and live under, and try to impose on everyone else...and it is nothing short of TRAGIC!

hey, next time you pick up your harmonica, remember our exchange here, and play with a lotta' soul, and Love...see what happens!

Yeah!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM

I edited the track for our local dance teacher, who choreographed a beautiful piece of ballet for her older pupils. When I listen to the track, in my head I can still see them dancing it. Lovely it was. Even magic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 12:30 PM

Steve: "If you want to know what's really true, your quest is for evidence."

Consider this, my post was not promoting a 'religion' but a power..the power of Love....

There is an account, written by Mark, but spoken by Jesus, who said, "These signs shall follow them that believe..."
He did NOT say, 'Those who believe, will follow after signs...'

When I had my quad bi-pass, I took over an hour, in ICU, to as the doctor told my family, "He doesn't want to come back"

On a subsequent visit to the first cardiologist, (I was flown from one hospital to another), I told her of what I 'saw' or 'experienced'....and this is what she told me, (verbatim), "You know, I've lost a few patients on the table, you know, really lost them. We tried everything we could to revive them, sometimes frantically, and some we were successful. I mean, they were dead...gone..but the ones who we could revive, and came back, were all telling me the same thing that you are saying." (True story).

Evidence??? That is something for others to 'judge'...but what I can say, is 'Love...and IT will create your circumstances'.

A while ago I posted a link to a film called 'What the Bleep Do We Know?' The film goes into depth about the marriage of known science, and what people call ,'spiritual' or even 'metaphysics'..and they approach it, from a NON-religious angle.
There are too many things that they have found to be true, and verifiable...even the effects of Love on snowflakes, and the molecular structure of water(of all things). Any of you might do yourselves a good service to watch the flick.

All that being said, I am NOT endorsing any 'religion'...in fact, 'religion' has been so destructive, by turning the 'message of the kingdom'(read: 'realm'), of the unseen, into some sort of 'organization' with rules, bi-laws, fear, repression, and often a political structure of elitism....often keeping people totally ignorant of the 'laws' (read: 'properties') of the unseen world, in which contains the very essences of life. Man IS capable of so much more, than we've been led to DIS-believe!!... it can't be even realized, or understood, by the way the 'churches', and 'political movements', have kept its people in the dark..on purpose....for control of a very materialistic hierarchy!!....IT's not about that..so when I read some of your posts, slamming certain churches or religious institutions, I see the bitterness. I see the bitterness and pain, inflicted upon some of you, some starting as a young child, and so getting as far away from those religions was one of the most liberating rebellions in your life....however, the sting of their dogmatic enslavement still lingers....so it seems easier to write it all off....and remain bitter...and insulated and closed minded...lumping it all into a taboo.
Actually, your 'rebellion' from those things were, in fact, a step in the RIGHT direction...and WHY did you 'rebel'....perhaps an 'unseen' force of Love, Liberty, and a Light, inside us, that somehow KNEW this NOT to be right!

Sometimes the 'evidence' is right in front of our noses..sometimes brewing inside us...but we still look for an 'external evidence'...in the physical....when in actuality, the physical, is just a manifestation, of the unseen powers at work!

Fair enough??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 12:19 PM

I will check it out thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 12:10 PM

I don't know why you got the idea I was angry. I'm actually having a very unangry day today. Very placid, looking forward to my pasta with chilli and broccoli, a glass of Nero d'Avola and a couple of Beethoven sonatas. Thought I'd try the F#, Op 78, then the E minor, Op 90. Balm to the soul and plenty of the magic of reality. As long as Mrs Steve doesn't expect me to sit through recordings of Graham f*****g Norton on the telly I'll remain serene. When I post here I'm posting to whoever wants to read it, poor souls. If I want to speak to a particular person only, there's a simple way of doing it. I advise the approach.

As I'm defying the theme of the thread somewhat here, I recommend a YouTube listen to Defying Gravity, sung by Idina Menzel, from Wicked. Very nice song, beautifully sung.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 11:15 AM

I am sorry you feel that way butI wwas talking
To Gfs
Why the anger you can notbbelieve anything
Youwwant


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 07:49 AM

Now a little birdie has just whispered in my ear that a chap whose posts I never read is burbling on about a Godly power, an unseen force, a gravity thing, a consciousness, etc., that is in accord with the laws of physics. I just wondered whether anyone up for it would care to ask him whether he actually knows what these laws of physics are. Better still, ask him if he has the faintest clue as to what he's talking about. If you get a reply, let me know in this thread. I know he could tell me himself, but I don't read his posts, as you know. Very handy thing, this little birdie. I believe in little birdies. They have bird brains I suppose, but they seem to be cleverer than some of those people whose posts I never read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 07:37 AM

Science and maths can't show us glimpses of miracles, and neither can you. There's plenty of magic in the world, for sure, to nick an idea from a Richard Dawkins book title, but it's the magic of reality, not the fake magic of sorcerers or of superstition or of biblical "miracles." And it's much more satisfying. If you want to know what's really true, your quest is for evidence. That isn't a cold, dry endeavour. It's delicious and you have to use your brain, unlike what you do when you settle for "believing in God."


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 04:10 AM

" Shimrod, it was suggestion rather than assertion , even though there is some evidence."

OK, Pete, let's have that scrap of evidence - after all, it's you that goes on and on ... and on etc. about "observable, testable, repeatable science". And turning to that tiresome mantra - which you, no doubt, are 'parroting' from 'Creation.com' - bear in mind that God isn't observable - let alone testable, repeatedly or otherwise. For that matter, the biblical story of creation isn't open to scientific scrutiny either - we've only got ancient texts, of dubious origin, to go on (the semi-absurd convolutions of a couple of contributors above notwithstanding).


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 02:00 AM

Gravity hurts a lot, I fell out of a tree once


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 01:56 AM

1cor13 my favorite passage for sure


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 01:31 AM

Glad to hear from you!!
I agree with a lot of what you said....but what rings through, and louder, is your sincerity!
The path to follow has already been laid...and that is to Love. Death cannot stop Love. Nothing can, although blind morons would try to have us BELIEVE that something can or will...whether it be politics, fear of financial failure, or any failure for that matter. We are, for a bit of time, encased in the physical realm...or 'kingdom'...yet Love is a power, that cannot be manipulated for our own greed or pride or lusts, and remain as Love, intact. We must conform to the will and properties of Love, not by our own will..but by our submission to it.
THIS is the reason why lesser ideologies would prefer to nullify Love, and what it can do, and is doing!
Religions are man's way of trying to reach 'God'.....Jesus Christ was God's way of reaching man!...and what he said, as a law, was Love god above all things, and Love your brother as yourself....in fact, Love opens ALL the doors. 1 John4:8 is VERY clear about this.."The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love."
We are NOT talking about a 'religion'...matter of fact, we are talking about a power, that is even consistent with the laws of physics...but it is an unseen force....you know...sorta like 'gravity',...and consciousness. 'Faith' is just a portal that reaches out from the physical, and moves things in the 'realm' (or 'kingdom') of the unseen. Problem is, when someone says 'faith', it is usually mixed up with faith in a religion....and not in Love...which is God..

Regards!!
Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 12:15 AM

There are no random events in math, only events we cannot yet plot. Deeper youdig the more yyou see God


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 12:08 AM

Gfs,
The creator is so beyond us that we as humans have a hard time following. It is designed that way. The almighty created everything, but understand that a complex set of dynamics was set forth. There is absolutely no conflict between creation and evolution or faith and science. He gave us a free will and a set of very interesting steps to follow to let us see the truth. It is a shame to think that such order such impossible mathematical combinations in such caotic events to create life was just a thunder bolt.. Give the almighty credit. The Bible gave us a start saying the almighty built it. Let science and math show a small glimpse of the miracle. There is no either or.. There just is... A day in the cosmos is irrelevant, man was created. How long the process took in God days is his knowledge not ours. Trying to limit the almighty by just a book is sad. We are given the book as an outline of how to live. Our job is to find our way back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 11:19 PM

Paul, who wrote a few epistles, was originally on a mission to kill, capture and/or persecute the early Christians. As you know, he had an experience on the road to Damascus, which changed his life. He later was killed for his beliefs...but what did they include??

Here, he wrote this:

"If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal. If I have the gift of foretelling the future and hold in my mind not only all human knowledge but the very secrets of God, and if I also have that absolute faith which can move mountains, but have no love, I amount to nothing at all. If I dispose of all that I possess, yes, even if I give my own body to be burned, but have no love, I achieve precisely nothing.

This love of which I speak is slow to lose patience—it looks for a way of being constructive. It is not possessive: it is neither anxious to impress nor does it cherish inflated ideas of its own importance.

Love has good manners and does not pursue selfish advantage. It is not touchy. It does not keep account of evil or gloat over the wickedness of other people. On the contrary, it is glad with all good men when truth prevails. Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.
All gifts except love will be superseded one day

For if there are prophecies they will be fulfilled and done with, if there are "tongues" the need for them will disappear, if there is knowledge it will be swallowed up in truth. For our knowledge is always incomplete and our prophecy is always incomplete, and when the complete comes, that is the end of the incomplete.

When I was a little child I talked and felt and thought like a little child. Now that I am a man my childish speech and feeling and thought have no further significance for me.

At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me!

In this life we have three great lasting qualities—faith, hope and love. But the greatest of them is love."

Now, back to 'gravity'...

GfS

P.S. Maybe when you guys can understand and get past that unseen force of gravity and what it can do, maybe you'll be ready to discuss this unseen force...and what it does...and can do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 11:06 PM

OK..the last one was in jest.
The Bible doesn't include that Pontius Pilate committed suicide, but he did. That comes from other historical sources of that time period....and there are more sources that there was a man named Jesus who walked around and existed back then.
I can't believe that this is even up for debate.....maybe you'd better stick to gravity.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 10:59 PM

Bill: "There ARE figures and places in the bible that are correlated with various historians, and stuff noted by various historians that are mentioned in the bible, but almost NONE in either case that can be verified as direct, eyewitness accounts. Remember, they didn't have the BBC or CNN with videos back then...."

You left out Fox News and the Wall Street Journal!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 10:55 PM

Gosh, for a guy who staunchly denies the existence of a 'God' in any form, because it's not possible, to you, but you believe in 'little birdies talking in your ear'...hmmm.....you could have quit before you embarrassed yourself.....but this takes the cake!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 10:51 PM

"Don't argue with that as long as it is operational science such as I understand is in the scientific method , and not origins assumption that can not be verified, only interpreted."

And biblical 'facts'? How are we to deal with those which "...can not be verified, only interpreted."?

There ARE figures and places in the bible that are correlated with various historians, and stuff noted by various historians that are mentioned in the bible, but almost NONE in either case that can be verified as direct, eyewitness accounts. Remember, they didn't have the BBC or CNN with videos back then to get exact quotes from the source. 99% of everything was 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay... and THAT was edited and translated and 'interpreted' by the few who could read & write..... and when information about **creation** or **eternal life** or who walked on water ...or fed thousands on a few leftovers.... or returned from the dead... was involved, there were folks whose careers & reputations were at stake hoping to convince as many as possible. (no... I'm not claiming they lied...only that they had a vested interest in the beliefs.)

When convincing, hard data is needed on any issue, pretty strict rules need to be applied to all sides... scientific or religious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 08:30 PM

Why, a little birdie has just whispered in my ear that someone or other, probably not very important, has implied that those of us who fail to deny evolution are, somehow, half-wits. Whoever it was, I haven't read his or her post, so it's not easy to comment, but I understand that whoever it was is getting into bed with pete. Now there's a thought. All hearsay, of course, as I haven't read his posts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 07:51 PM

There he is again...pretending to not have read my posts. It's OK if you do...just stop bullshitting us. You are only digging your hole deeper.

Pete, I know that there has been some disputed on some of Josephus's writings, but there is enough there....

All that being said, the post is about 'gravity', and somehow the usual frothing starts up about 'evolution'...and argued by half-wits who really don't know what they're talking about.

OK..maybe they are not half-wits...maybe they are just not fully 'evolved'...maybe even the missing links, which nobody has come up with...except maybe on here....and frankly, I don't give a rat's ass about 'evolution' or 'non-evolution'. It's NOT the point....but it does give the loonies something to yak about, about dodging the real issue....a LOT of real issues!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 07:28 PM

Well let me set the bar very low. Give me some Roman references to Jesus other than the dodgy ones already mentioned. I'm all ears, honest I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 07:27 PM

Well how about that gfs, just as I was posting and mentioning Steves extreme skepticism (at least as far as God is concerned), he was writing a post demonstrating just that !                Shimrod, it was suggestion rather than assertion , even though there is some evidence.   However, since you never give any evidence , other than appeal to authority and numbers for your assertions, you are in no position to ask me to provide details on this !


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 07:14 PM

Some interesting stuff there gfs. Just a note of caution though ,even conservative scholars are skeptical of the second Josephus quote as perhaps being touched up by a Christian / sympathiser. I have never come across the descriptions of Jesus linked at the bottom, but I don't know if they can be validated if they are locked in libraries. Steve did reply to me when I had supplied some quotes , but he would settle for nothing less than the Romans contempories attesting to the existence of Jesus. I guess if you are a committed atheist you set the bar as high as you can!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 07:12 PM

Now just in case someone here whose posts I don't read mentions the writings of Josephus, both Josephus and Tacitus were writing long after the alleged death of Jesus. Their works certainly wouldn't pass the Keith A. test of historical authenticity, as they were references way longer than 30 years max after the event and their works are not generally available in bookshops (except in dodgy compilations, of course). In fact, considerable controversy surrounds their integrity. What is far more striking is that, apart from the one dubious Tacitus reference, there is no mention of a chap called Jesus in any Roman writings, rather odd considering that there are huge volumes of such and that 'twas the Romans who supposedly put this troublesome insurgent to death. Still, he either existed or he didn't, and taking your pick is the only option. A few things are rock-solid certain, however. He was not born to a virgin. He did not turn water into wine. He did not raise people from the dead. He did not walk on water or feed thousands on five loaves and two fishes. He did not die and then come back to life. I'm fine with everything else, honest I am. That's because I'm a grown-up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 03:52 PM

Ah, someone has just advised me that you've just posted accusing me and my ilk of arguing. Obviously, I don't know exactly what you posted as I haven't read it, but let me just say that my last few posts about those posts of yours that I haven't read are actually attempts to AVOID arguing with you, as there's no point. If you want to reply, do you think you could get someone else to post it for you, as then I'd be able to read it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 03:47 PM

Oh bullshit! Some of you, and your ilk, just argue for the sake of arguing.....AND..to prove it, how did you know that I said, "...also, I thought you've said repeatedly that you didn't read my posts.." AND, " I didn't read the post from you accusing me of reading your posts either."

Go back to playing your harmonica. At least there, being a blowhard, MAY have its advantages!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 02:49 PM

I don't read your posts. I predicted in my head that you'd say that Jaysus was a historical fact so I prepared that post several weeks ago, determining to post it this very day, and bingo! It worked! I didn't read the post from you accusing me of reading your posts either. A little mouse told me what you were going to say, and guess what: a little mouse is even brighter than you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 02:10 PM

Steve Shaw: "Historical fact? Evidence, pease."
Musket: Which historical fact is that Goofus?

Steve, For an 'educator' I hope your field wasn't history....and you misspelled 'please'....
...also, I thought you've said repeatedly that you didn't read my posts...oh well, so much for 'reliability'!!


Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of Biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available. AND from contemporaries, who were historians and NOT particularly followers!!

You SHOULD read it ALL!!

    Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod--Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
       "Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."
    Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus--Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
       Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

    Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus--Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
       "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."
    Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
       Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money
       Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."
    Tacitus (A.D. c. 55-A.D. c. 117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus--Annals 15.44
       "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
            Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt
    Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.
       "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
            Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."
            The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.
            Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
    Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.
       "They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
            Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
    The Talmud
       "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover"!
            Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
            Luke 22:1-2, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."
            This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
    Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
       "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
            Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
            Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

Plus:
plus these accounts, one from the centurion, and kept in Roman records

Let's not divert from 'gravity' to dumb questions about if Jesus historically existed, OK?? ..because it seems that some of you have a LOT of re-thinking to do!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 01:27 PM

....or defined by belief in evolutionism.....    Doing science defined by science.   Don't argue with that as long as it is operational science such as I understand is in the scientific method , and not origins assumption that can not be verified, only interpreted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 01:26 PM

May I remind you, YET AGAIN, Pete, that somewhere above you made some assertions about "group think"?

You implied that a few (?) some (?) many (?) evolutionary biologists are really closet creationists who are too intimidated by "groupthink" to step out of line and 'unshackle' themselves from an "evolutionist agenda".

You then failed to provide an estimate of what percentage of scientists, working within the field of evolutionary biology, are closet creationists too intimidated by group think to speak out. You also failed to supply any evidence to show that any such browbeaten closet creationists exist.

Finally, I asked if you believe that modern science is a vast anti-religious conspiracy and if it isn't a vast anti-religious conspiracy, but just plain wrong, why do so many institutions and governments devote such vast resources to it?

You have failed AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN to answer these questions. Could it be that you don't have any answers to these questions? Could it be that your favourite creationist websites have not provided you with any answers, so there's nothing for you to regurgitate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 01:04 PM

Well Pete... you regularly ask for "observational, testable , repeatable verified data ", but then skew the standards & definitions for what counts as "observational, testable , repeatable verified data " so that nothing that seems to dispute the Bible counts.

I'm sorry, but when doing **science**, the criteria for evaluating data is defined BY science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 12:46 PM

Which historical fact is that Goofus?

The only historical facts are that some ancient people with fertile imaginations wrote some interesting stories. Some medieval people changed them to suit their purpose and the marketing carried on from there.

The story of he and his wife and children being banished secretly to France has been doing the rounds for a few hundred years, and the Dan Brown addition is just one of many. Some scholars appear to be looking deeper into this as it conveniently does away with having a dead man coming back to life. It allows him to meet with his mates before getting on a ship etc. Gaul accepted many banished people at the time and many Roman leaders had land there and could give employment to trouble makers if they reformed.

Mind you, as I said.. It is a nice story, but is about as factual as the Jesus concept in the first place. Presumably the borrowed myths about a virgin birth etc may be a little harder to explain away, not to mention that he had a Dad who predates history itself.

In case you hadn't noticed Goofus, this thread is about reality not fantasy.

😇


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 12:34 PM

Fools give full vent to their rage,
but the wise bring calm in the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 12:27 PM

"If it were not for gravity, we would not know if we were coming or going."

Having a poo wouldn't be very nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 12:16 PM

If it were not for gravity, we would not know if we were coming or going.

As a math geek and a highly published one at that, Science strengthens my faith not the opposite. It is sad to think that the path the lord used to create this amazing universe is trivilized by others with faith. The Lord gave us a brain. We are allowed to look at the amazing building blocks of creation and make assumptions and observations. What that does for me is make my faith stonger.. It is a sin to assume the lord works in a trivial manner I think.. Hence for what my two cents is worth


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 12:12 PM

Historical fact? Evidence, pease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gravity solved?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Feb 16 - 11:41 AM

Musket: "I know what it makes me think...
I notice the more rational brethren are exploring the idea again that the Jesus character (or the amalgamation of people that became Jesus) wasn't fully crucified and was sent into exile in Gaul. So much for his supernatural image...."

So they 'made it up'....is that why they, the people who wrote his account, and 11 of his closest followers were all martyred?...rather than to re-cant??..for something that they were pretending????

You make no sense, whatsoever.

You've just taken a stance, and are grasping at straws for ANYTHING, just to make some ridiculous reason, to deny a historical fact.

GfS


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