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BS: boys won't date girls who smoke

SingsIrish Songs 03 Dec 99 - 09:14 PM
Frank Hamilton 03 Dec 99 - 06:57 PM
InOBU 03 Dec 99 - 04:26 PM
katlaughing 03 Dec 99 - 04:20 PM
Marion 03 Dec 99 - 04:12 PM
JedMarum 03 Dec 99 - 03:54 PM
bob schwarer 03 Dec 99 - 03:14 PM
bob schwarer 03 Dec 99 - 03:13 PM
Gary T 03 Dec 99 - 01:40 PM
Gary T 03 Dec 99 - 01:38 PM
katlaughing 03 Dec 99 - 01:35 PM
Mbo 03 Dec 99 - 12:34 PM
Frank Hamilton 03 Dec 99 - 12:28 PM
Frank Hamillton 03 Dec 99 - 12:24 PM
kendall 03 Dec 99 - 11:31 AM
Mbo 03 Dec 99 - 10:57 AM
InOBU 03 Dec 99 - 10:32 AM
catspaw49 03 Dec 99 - 08:23 AM
Mbo 03 Dec 99 - 08:14 AM
InOBU 03 Dec 99 - 07:16 AM
Cara 03 Dec 99 - 12:14 AM
diesel 02 Dec 99 - 10:27 PM
catspaw49 02 Dec 99 - 10:15 PM
02 Dec 99 - 10:00 PM
kendall 02 Dec 99 - 09:49 PM
DougR 02 Dec 99 - 08:17 PM
Little Neophyte 02 Dec 99 - 07:14 PM
Mbo 02 Dec 99 - 06:55 PM
catspaw49 02 Dec 99 - 06:42 PM
Chet W. 02 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM
katlaughing 02 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM
Cara 02 Dec 99 - 03:40 PM
Marion 02 Dec 99 - 02:00 PM
Marion 02 Dec 99 - 01:57 PM
Marion 02 Dec 99 - 01:50 PM
kendall 02 Dec 99 - 12:25 PM
Roger the skiffler 02 Dec 99 - 09:47 AM
catspaw49 02 Dec 99 - 09:33 AM
sophocleese 02 Dec 99 - 12:11 AM
Chet W. 01 Dec 99 - 11:16 PM
sophocleese 01 Dec 99 - 11:15 PM
Frank Hamilton 01 Dec 99 - 09:11 PM
Marion 01 Dec 99 - 07:28 PM
JedMarum 01 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 Dec 99 - 04:53 PM
kendall 01 Dec 99 - 04:30 PM
sophocleese 01 Dec 99 - 04:09 PM
Michael K. 01 Dec 99 - 03:43 PM
Marion 01 Dec 99 - 02:45 PM
katlaughing 01 Dec 99 - 02:20 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:14 PM

It's a personal choice if someone won't date someone who smokes...

When I went off to college and was away from my smoking parents, I realized how horrible my clothes used to smell. I can't imagine how my clothes smelled to my classmates when I was in gradeschool. But then again, perhaps the majority of grownups smoked, too.

I know it would be a factor for me in dating (well, at least cigarette and cigars)--cigarette and cigar smoke are definitely more offensive than pipe smoke. (I have always loved going into the tobacconists shops and inhaling the wonderful aromas of pipe tobacco, though I am not a smoker.

I do like the legislations in the States that prohibit smoking in public places, including bars.

Another factor that really affects me is seeing how my Dad has been affected by smoking. He smoked til he just couldn't anymore--sense of smell got too sensitive. He is now living what is left of his limited life--he suffers from progressive emphysema that is well advanced. Even surgery wasn't a permanent "treatment". Imagine breathing with lungs that are working only at 11%--might be less than that now....It is sad, and he isn't that old either!

Yeah, we aren't going to live forever, but should making the "most of it" include doing something that may cut it drastically short?

Anyway, to each his own.

Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 06:57 PM

A lot of performers are limited to non-smoke venues. I'm one. Even the ones that are ostensibly non-smoking often have smoke drifting in from other parts of the building because of designated smoking areas in the proximity. Also, chemicals are in the walls from the smoking-allowed shows. Even if a venue owner designates a non-smoking show, if he/she also has smoking shows, the stuff is residual and the place smells like an ashtray.

I see this as a kind of tyranny that penalizes performers that choose to be healthy by forcing them to breathe side-stream smoke.

Peggy Lee had emphesyma and didn't smoke.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:26 PM

Hi Kat: Im glad you responded to Mbo, I was going to say the same thing, it is important not to over sentimentalize natives. The brother I refered to, preparing the Kinikinik as completely addicted to mainstream cigs. He did, in the last months of his life, make a distinction and I believe he successfully quit smokeing before he died. I have also made gifts of regular old smokes when I did not have tobacco bundles or my favoirte, some tabocco a freind brings up for serimonial use, grown in the Amazon by the Shippibo. As to the Catholic comparison, another might be that there is a difference between drinking wine as part of the communion and wine for wines own sake, but that does not meen a huge number of priests arent addicted to alcohol. I, on rare occations use tobacco as part of my spirtual life, perhaps less than once or twice a year... Kat, do you know my old pal Dan Charging Hawk from Pine Ridge? He is sometimes seen up Rosebud way. Great story teller! All the best all, and please take the ciggies outside for a puff... enjoy it completely but leave me out of the pleasure.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:20 PM

Bob, maybe to YOUR tastebuds! NOT mine!**BG**


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Subject: Lyr Add: GOOD THING HE CAN'T READ MY MIND (Lavin)
From: Marion
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:12 PM

Yes Liam, good one!

As my last official act as a medal-holding member of Mudcat's Tirage Team, I'm going to convert this into a music thread:

Here's a song by Christine Lavin; it's very funny.

Happy thoughts, darlings.

Marion


GOOD THING HE CANíT READ MY MIND
As recorded by Christine Lavin on ďGood Thing He Canít Read My MindĒ (1988)

1. I am at the opera; I don't like the opera,
But he loves the opera, and I love him.
I follow the libretto; I follow the conductor.
When I follow the plot, my head begins to swim.
I don't understand a word, even when it's English.
Everyone around me says this is divine.
I don't like the opera, but look! I'm at the opera.
It's a good thing he can't read my mind.

[Spoken:] Yes, heís a wonderful Parsifal! And sheís the best Tundra Iíve ever seen.

2. Look at me; Iím skiing, when I do not like skiing,
But he loves skiing, and I love him.
I rent the boots and poles; I shiver in the cold.
Iím charging down a mountain risking life and limb.
There's no exhilaration; I am only feeling terrified.
Everyone around me's having such a great time.
I do not like skiing, but look at me: I'm skiing.
It's a good thing he can't read my mind.

[Spoken:] Yes, exhilarating is just the very word I was thinking of! Scared of heights? Oh, no, not me!

BRIDGE: I am not complaining; Iím just making observations.
Expanding your horizons is a sign of maturation.
Now I tolerate cigars Ďcause he's a smoker.
I'm playing chess, though I confess, sometimes I long for poker.

3. I am eating sushi, when I do not like sushi,
But he loves sushi, and I love him.
I'm poking with a chopstick at a living, breathing fish stick.
Oh, my God! I think it's trying to swim.
Some say eating sushi's just like chewing on your own cheek
Or sucking down a bucketful of tentacled slime.
I do not like sushi, but look: I'm eating sushi.
It's a good thing he can't read my mind.

[Spoken:] Oh, yes this is a very interesting texture. What is it? Ahhhh!

4. So if you see me in the sushi bar, or see me in the mezzanine,
See me on a ski slope, looking scared,
Don't feel sorry for me; I must be in love,
Or why the hell else would I be there?
Before I met him, life was dull; I never took any chances.
Now I leap at every opportunity I find.
I do not like sushi; I do not like skiing or the opera.
Maybe I will in time.
Yeah, maybe I will in time.

[Spoken:] Seconds? Sure, I'd love some. Mmmmmmm, yum!


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:54 PM

I just have to laugh; this thread sure has a life of its own!


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: bob schwarer
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:14 PM

Q: Do you smoke after you have sex?

A: Don't know. I never looked.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: bob schwarer
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:13 PM

Marion:

If God didn't want us to eat meat, why did He make it taste so good?


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:40 PM

One detail in my post didn't seem to be very clear. That's "point seven" seconds--seven tenths of a second.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:38 PM

Cigarette tobacco is cured differently from pipe and cigar tobacco. The method is called "bright" curing. Bright cured tobacco provides its chemical effect to the brain in about .7 seconds after inhaling. A sharp, quick draw provides a stimulant effect, and a long, slow draw provides a calming effect. So here you have the "perfect" drug--generally affordable, so no need to turn to a life of crime to use it; easily self-administered; the user subconsciously smokes it in a manner to provide the desired effect; near-immediate results; and it typically takes decades for it to do you in.

The aromatic ingredients in many pipe tobaccos usually do much more for the pleasure of the bystander than for the smoker. I'm not sure what the reasons are, but surely the tobacco companies have decided that aromatic cigarettes won't fly, sales-wise. They've certainly tried all manner of things to increase sales.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:35 PM

You can get Native American cigarettes which don't have all of the additives in them, etc. I was thinking tobacco was the NA's revenge on the *white man* but, in all of the powwows, sweats, sundances, and other gatherings it has been my privilege to attend or participate in, I saw a lot of Indians smoking regular cigarettes.

In fact, ironically, a pack of cigs was a standard offering to a medicine man who come down from the Rosebud to do a sweat for some of us here. It is sad to see and I don't think even a consciousnes of reverence for tobacco could negate the harmful effects of the regular cigs offered.

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:34 PM

Straying from the subject of addiction and harm, why can't all cigarettes and cigars use pipe tobacco? At least it has a pleasant, non-offensive, fruity smell. I'd date a girl who smoked a pipe!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:28 PM

There is a scientific quest today to determine if there is a gene that makes some people more susceptible to the ravages of second hand smoke. They may have found it.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Frank Hamillton
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:24 PM

Marion,

Didn't say anything about wife-beating. You misinterpreted me. What I said was abuse. This comes in different forms and degrees. When a smoker ignores the rights of the non-smoker to have breathing airspace, this is a form of abuse. If we use the metaphor of "beating," there is a kind of violence that is implied here. There is a tendency for a smoker to think, what's good for me is also good for you and if you don't like it, that's too bad. This is the bottom of what is called addiction. It's the golden rule in reverse. Addiction is abuse.

As to the issue of famous artists, writers, etc., they are not known for their ability to make other people's lives miserable with their addicitions. If they are, this certainly detracts from the gifts that they give us.

I've known and have befriended many smokers and I don't have the attitude that they are bad people or somehow inferior to those that don't smoke. Some of the people who I admire have been smokers. But....smoking is a form of abuse. The lungs are beaten, the airspace is violated and the reason many smokers get mad when non-smokers assert their rights is that they have been made aware of their addiction.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 11:31 AM

what do you think happened to the blacksmiths and farriers when the automobile came in? either they evolved into other work or...nothing stays the same, if it did, we would still be in the caves trying to invent fire. Tobacco will never be outlawed because of the revenue it generates. And, in America, money is more important than people. We should remember, THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 10:57 AM

"'Tis true, 'tis true, 'tis pity, 'tis true." Larry, it's too bad about what happened to tobacco. The Native American's consider it sacred, and use it for special occasions. This I do not have a single problem with, and in fact, I honor the tradition. But you sure don't see those Native Americans who value tobacco as sacred hanging around on corners with a butt in their mouth. They understand it, they don't abuse it. White man came and pumped it full of chemicals and marketed it as some sort of fashionable relaxant or stress buster or something, when really they were chaining people to a potentially dangerous addiction. The modern use of tobacco invalidates everything the Native Americans hold dear about it's special & religious uses. There is a law in my religion (Roman Catholicism) that bring severe penalties against anyone who steals and subsequently sells religious items. I think Native Americans should get together an sue Big Tobacco on this claim, and be rid of commercial tobacco sales. In spite of this, I do feel a great amount sympathy with the North Carolina tobacco growers here, who have grown tobacco for generations, and would be homeless without their cash crop. What to do! What a sad world we live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 10:32 AM

Dear Mbo: Funny where smoking comes from. My specialty is Federal Indian Law, and while working for a small Algonquin nation, a young chief, who died much too young from lukemia, was prepairing Kinikinik, tobacco and sage for a pipe. He was doing so with great reverence and suddunly he grinned and looked up at me, and said, You know Larry, this stuff is sacred to us. It is one of the many things we should not have trusted white guys with - all the stuff they add really mess it up. Thanks for the kind thoughts about my dad, he was a great singer, and it was tragic to see him not being able to sing, even more than when, in the end he could no longer talk. Larry Otway


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 08:23 AM

In truth I always have wished that Sir Walter or whoever it was had stuck the damn thing in his ear and said, "Well fuck this...No thrill here...Does nothing for me." Oh well.....It is a POWERFUL addiction.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 08:14 AM

Thanks for the story, Larry. I'm very sorry for your loss, but I'm afraid that you, your father, and many others who have suffered similarly can do nothing to change smokers. We've been trying to show people it was extremely harmful as well as unsavory since the 1600's. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. People just refuse to understand what they are doing. There was a guy who used to work at the base library who was always telling people about his emphasima. And everyday, when I went there, he'd be outside smoking away. This man had been in WWII and as Tom Brokaw says "Helped save the world" but still couldn't stop smoking. Similarly, I had a relative who had emphasima, who had to wear an oxygen maskjust to breath, and who used to take it off so he could light up. But smokers just roll their eyes at us, and tell us to stop our whining. I wonder who invented the cigarette? I wonder who said "I think I'll roll up this smelly leaf in some paper, catch it on fire, put it in my mouth, and inhale smoke."? Did you know that nicotine is a natural poison created by the tobacco plant to kill bugs that might try to eat it's leaves? It really makes me wonder.

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 07:16 AM

Well... As far as dating a smoker, I am some twenty something years married, but to bring this back to music, my parents both smoked, and it ruined my health, ending a promicing track carreer, as my lung problems are - without a doupt, caused by second hand smoke. I grew up in a music family, and Irish music is a part of my life that I have little choice about, I am complelled to play and it is painful not to, however, the cost to my health from other peoples smoke inculdes an opperation to my throat, which could have taken my voice, which for someone with a long ballad tradition, would not be very nice, and did take away my ability to play the highland pipes, which for an Uilleann piper is not the greatest loss in the world, though it is one I feel, non the less. Law and rights are a profoundly missunderstood concept. A New York judge, in the 1930s, with the great name Learned Hand, once said that your rights end where mine begin, though you have the right to swing your hand, that right ends at my face - to paraphrase slightly. in my middle thirties I decided to go to law school, and had to get an undergad degree, so I spent some 10 years away from the music and the smoke filled pubs, and was surprised at my sudden good health. Now that I have left the legal community and returned to music, the constant smoke has again brought on wretched health. As much as I endorce the right, and it is a right, of smokers to kill themselves, do we not have a right to experience out traditional culture without being murdered by their cigarettes. As to you happy smokers, I spent the better part of a year with my father as he ended several decades of struggle against emhasima. He was a powerful man, who among other things, dug coal at the age of thirteen or so. As a result, his battle against the loss of his lungs was epic. In the end, he did not have the strenght to sit up in bed, and as gravity would pull him down, I had to take him, under the shoulderblades and raise him up on his pillows again, so he could breath. I had to do this, as if the nurces did, he would his skin would come appart where they touched him as they were not so gentle. He was as proud as he was once powerful, and having me have to help him in this little way caused him deep embarassment. We singers are good at remembering history, so let us remember that tobaco, even more than cotten was the industry of slavery, and the sons of sons of bitchs that chained women men and children to plows, now chain men women and children to this weed that is ruining so many lives. As far as sleeping with Ferrets, Little Dorritt, You have sorely damaged my mental immage of Yorksire. I thought sleeping with Ferrets a rather quaint Yorksire tradition! I did a fundraiser concert for the NUM back during the big mine strikes, was it in 86? and my most prised possestion was a NUM union badge from the Yorksire region locals. I lost it while doing a human rights survey among Innu in Quebec, who were trying to stop hydro dams from destroying their hunting lands (sorry Marrion - its too cold there to grow vegies) So, Little Dorret, If you know any NUM members, and they could see it in their hearts, I love to find a replacement for the lost union badge. I can be reached at InOBU@AOL.COM, Sorry for the long ponderous post, Larry Otway


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Cara
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:14 AM

Thanks diesel and 'Spaw for the support. It's appreciated!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: diesel
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:27 PM

Cara - what I would like to add is that if you choose to smoke then it is your right to do so.Who are we to impose laws on others without them having a right to object or vote to repeal such laws.In my own country a pub is where you go to have a pint and meet people,if some of them smoke then it is only a reflection of the society we live in.If I was to object - then what am I doing there in the first place.The laws were not introduced due to health issues - don't belive that for a moment,they were introduced so as to prevent the local authorities from being sued in court for negligence...need we say more. Don't try mask the smell for those 'spontaneous smooches' instead enjoy the smooch - your partner already knows you smoke... If you can accept when there is a wrong time to do something - then naturally you will avoid it (smoking into sombodies face as an example)And if you really believed what your smoking is wrong then you will stop.But right now it sounds as if you are enjoying it - so go for it,meet that smoocher and smooch away. Marion - cop on to reality !

James - a non-smoker


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:15 PM

Well anao, I see why you are, but uh........

There must be a dozen jokes on that line going thru my head right now..........and I'm trying to be good. You're making it very hard...uh, so to speak.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From:
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:00 PM

Once met a woman of the night in a brothel in Subic Bay she smoked cigars with the fire part IN HER MOUTH far as I could tell she had no customers that night


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:49 PM

One of my daughters still smokes..I still love her dearly, but, all the sen sen and perfume in the world will not cover that ash tray odor. She doesn't stink, but, her clothes sure do. Smokers listen up...you have a god given right to smoke in any area where it is legal. No problem..however, under my nose is not a legal area, and, I'm not above caustic remarks. So, as they saying goes..If you know the dog bites.....


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: DougR
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 08:17 PM

As an older man, I won't comment on the original question which was directed, I believe to young men and perhaps young women.

When I WAS young, there were probably more smokers than non-smokers. One didn't even give a thought as to whether one would or would not date a smoker. That has all changed of course.

I smoked for many years. My wife did too. Failing health required that she quit. She didn't want to. I quit because I wanted to, and haven't smoked for twenty years. I love to go to my local pub, but must admit that when I get home wearing smoke filled clothes, I often regret having gone. As long as smokers abide by the rules, however, they have every right to smoke, and I would never consider making unkind remarks to them.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 07:14 PM

Catspaw did you just draw a horizontal version of Snidely Whiplash with a double chin? I reckon he's missing his black hat.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Mbo
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:55 PM

Maybe I should just shut up, ignore humanity and let it's puffing/guzzling/doping habits go to the De'il. I guess I can't change anyone, and my opinions apparently have no merit round here. If I can't get what I want in a person, then alright! I'll stay a bachelor for life! I'd rather get myself self-actualized than bothering with others!

--Mbo


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:42 PM

Hey Cara...I love ya' dear, and I more than understand. In my heavy smoking days, I had a little sign made up for me by a neighboring signmaker, based on a "Shoe" cartoon. It was small enough to fit in my pocket and had a little tab that folded out to make it stand upright. Before lighting up, I simply put it in front of me. It said:

"Thank You for Minding Your Own Business"

HEY BERT---I think we must have gotten married for the no good reason!!! Fortunately the CRS is keeping us from knowing. LMAO (:<))

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Chet W.
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM

Thanks, Marion, and I do respect your choices. And it is true, by the way, statistically more likely that a smoker will be prone to things like crime and irresponsibility (I was a teacher in prison for years, so I kept up with such things). This seems to be connected directly with the fact that there is indeed a big correllation between those who smoke and those who are illiterate or live in homes that are dysfunctional anyway. I guess I'm just sticking up for a person's right to be weak sometimes. One thing I've learned from working with troubled (and, yes, criminal) children is that what looks like a choice to you and me may not look like one to somebody else. And not all people are so well-adjusted that they always do what's best for them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are bad. I have done many things in my life that were not good for me, mostly during times that were not so good. I feel that maybe I should have been strong enough to do the smart thing, but I wasn't always, and I know others have judged me on things that I think are unimportant, and I've suffered for that. Maybe that's why I'm good at teaching disadvantaged and often unwise young people, because I know what it feels like to be generalized out of people's lives, and I know when that's right and when that's wrong. We all have feet of clay; we are all full of germs; we all make mistakes. I think we owe tolerance and vigilance against double standards. I'll never be casting the first stone. (end of biblical images)

Chet


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM

It's the generalisations that'll get any of us in trouble. My smoking Rog has been called the kindest man on earth by several people who've met him. Gawdess knows I have pushed him far and hit some of his buttons with no violent repercussions. Smoking doesn't make him a terrible or mean person, just addicted.

Marion, IMHO, you are wise not to try pot. I never have. My sister was married to a brilliant journalist who baked it in brownies, smoked it, etc. all through college and it did seem addictive and it did seem to have permanently effected his mental abilities. I have friends who swear by it, though, and I do not think it should be criminalised anymore than alcohol. I also feel differently about it being used for medicinal purposes, such as for glaucoma and pain from end-stage cancer.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Cara
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:40 PM

No smokers weighing in on this thread I see? Well, allow me to be the first. It's irritating to me to see how many times "smokers" have been referred to in this thread as if we're one huge cow-like herd who can be easily lumped together. You don't like smoking? It seems as though it should be easy enough to avoid, given the few public spaces that are left open to smokers these days. You don't like to go into smoky pubs? I don't like sitting down at a bar next to someone who makes a face when I light a cigarette. I try to be conscientious and respectful of other people's sensitivity to smoke, but it is my right to smoke in areas that are not designated as non-smoking, and I'm taking it. I really, really try to be a nice smoker, but you would not believe how rude people can be. Holding your breath and saying, "excuse me, but some of us breathe oxygen!"? How rude. There are just so few occasions when rudeness is called for.

Smokers who litter are another matter; littering is not cool in any circumstance. Nor is smoking in a private home if you've been asked not to. But in a bar, or the smoking section of a restaurant, or at an outdoor cafe? Don't go if you don't like it.

Now, do I wish I hadn't started smoking? Absolutely. Have I tried to quit? Yes, but obviously not hard enough. Saying that "cigarettes are addictive" doesn't really do justice to how dependent we addicts are. That's not a good thing, but once you're there...

It does make social stuff harder. I hate sneaking out the door to smoke at non-smoking venues or work functions, and I am incomplete without gum and perfumed lotion to mask the smell. Dating non-smokers is a challenge too, since you want to be minty-fresh for those spontaneous smooches. And, even though my Janis Joplin voice is fun in the morning shower, I'm aware that it will ruin what voice I ever had.

But I really hate the way some non-smokers talk about smokers. I make smartass remarks about how smokers are just cooler people, but I never really mean it. Maybe it's true though, and being a persecuted outgroup will finally lead us to cohere and rise up...

Just kidding, of course. I have a love/hate relationship with my cigarettes, for all of the obvious reasons. It varies from day to day. But I hate coming across venues where non-smokers pat each other on the back and talk about how smokers smell bad, and are thoughtless, and unloveable. That's me you're talking about here folks, and who knows who else on the Forum? Or in your office? Do you think smokers don't know that it's an unhealthy habit that really annoys some people? We do, I promise. But please be polite and limit your personal remarks to smokers who are obviously being inappropriate (i.e., breaking a law, or in your home or car) and just let the rest of us be.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 02:00 PM

Chet! Sorry, upon rereading I realized that my "God forbid you're in the market again" could be radically misinterpreted. I meant God forbid that anything happen to your wife. But if you were on the market, of course it would be a gain for the rest of us. Unless you smoke, of course. :)

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:57 PM

Frank, thanks for your support, but I think you may have gone a little far in implying that smokers are more likely than the average population to be wife-beaters. God knows I'm no big fan of smoking, but I've seen that some of the nicest people are smokers... and I think it's a little harsh to suggest it leads to violence.

I had been pondering whether or not to give pot a try, but I think I won't. I'm starting to hear from people that pot does have a lingering effect on your brain even when done infrequently, and your account is another strong vote against it.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:50 PM

Hi Chet,

I'm not saying I wouldn't dance with a smoker, or read a smoker, or vote for a smoker; I'm saying that I wouldn't marry one.

Unlike Kendall, my main reason for this is not how the man's smoking would affect me personally (health-wise, financially, or aesthetically) but how the man's smoking would affect his compatibility with me.

Yes, that's a character judgement. I don't think character judgements are necessarily bad things: have you ever hired a babysitter?

And in defense of this particular character judgement, I will lay out my three main premises so you can tell me which point(s) you're disagreeing with.

1. Somebody who chooses to smoke has a low level of respect/love for their own body (and by using the word "chooses" I am excluding people who are addicted and want to quit but are having a hard time doing so).

2. The level of respect/love that a person has for their own body is one element of that person's [character/values/standards/priorities/goals/personality/philosophy/whatever you want to call it].

3. When choosing a husband, I can and should take their [character/values/standards/priorities/goals/personality/philosophy/whatever you want to call it] into consideration.

A number of people on this thread have denied my third premise, but I'm not convinced. I suspect that everybody has some mimimal standards that govern who they allow themselves to fall in love with, even if those standards are very different from mine or if they've never consciously spelled them out. Surely, Chet, there is something that your wife could (hypothetically) do that would make you stop wanting to be with her; and if (God forbid) you're ever in the market again, I'm sure there is some behaviour that would make you summarily rule out a prospect.

And getting back to an old post of yours: no, I certainly wouldn't rule out a man because of reckless cycling in the past; heck, I've smoked tobacco in the past. But if he rode recklessly in the present, it would certainly raise a warning sign in my eyes, especially if he had a tendency towards other reckless behaviours. I wouldn't be able to help wondering if he would make our kids wear seat belts or not. The difference between smoking and other less-than-ideal behaviours is one of degree; since smoking is such a flagrant insult to the body, I have a firm policy against it, but for the lesser evils it's a harder call. Since we're on the traffic motif: would you want to partner up with a woman who routinely drove drunk and made no efforts to fix that problem?

Love, Marion

PS. One of my roommates married a man who was dying of cystic fibrosis. I admired her strength, courage, and depth of love to be able to overcome her evolutionary instincts and do that. I don't know if I'd be strong enough to do that. But if his doom was self-inflicted, it would be a different story, both for her and in my eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 12:25 PM

I have never meant to make a character judgement of people who smoke.. I do, however, ask where they get the right to pollute the air that I MUST breathe. I MUST breathe..they do not HAVE to smoke. I have the same problem behind a bus or big truck spewing out great clouds of toxic fumes into the air that I MUST breathe.

Winston Churchill smoked cigars..so? he never polluted the air near me, so, why should I care what he did? There is a story about him, one of many, He once grew a mustache, and a female MP, probably Lady Astor, said "I dont like your mustache any more than I like your politics!" To which he replied, "Dont worry madam, you will never get close to either."


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:47 AM

My other half smoked when we met but only a couple a day, usually small cigarillos, though there is a photo of her on our wedding day in full fig smoking a proper cigar, but after recurring bronchitis each winter she gave up and now we share all our vices: food , drink, jazz,drink, folk,drink, blues, drink ... (though I'm the only one who farts, allegedly).
RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:33 AM

Physical traits, habits, opinions, parentage, race, religion........for anyone that believes these have something to do with love and the perfect partner, well......Thanks for the chuckle!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 12:11 AM

Chet, I'm not mad. I'm thinking. Which is good, I think. I didn't bother that much about cigarette butts until I had babies small enough and curious enough to pick them up and try and eat them. Suddenly I noticed them all over the place. I don't think all smokers are evil planet polluting demons, but I do think most that I have seen don't think twice about throwing butts on the ground. Such absent-minded dumping, when you are super sensitive to everything that a baby can get into, is intensely irritating. We all have our personal areas of persnicketyness. Some smokers are probably appalled at the way I chew my nails. However mixed in with my fantasies of chucking wilted lettuce leaves and egg-shells on the lawns of smokers were attempts to design vandal-proof ashtrays. Maybe I'll just label some old tuna tins and leave them on the picnic tables, but then I might be accused of littering.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Chet W.
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:16 PM

Many of the great minds in human history had weaknesses that could be called bodily abuse. In this century alone we have seen Hemingway blow his own brains out after decades of indulgence, Jack Kerouac drank himself to death, Charlie Parker died from heroin, FDR and Churchill (sp) both smoked cigars. Somebody, probably a lot of them, have said they'd rather go to hell than to heaven because the people would be so much more interesting. If you've seen smokers throw their butts on the ground, do you get to generalize and decide that they all do it, even if only when no one is looking? Is this different from any other kind of generalizing? I have no argument about the legitimate health concerns that people have expressed here. No one should impose smoke or anything else on another, unwilling or unwise person. But I guess it's just a leftover from my youth, when I learned to question all authority and that one orthodoxy is about the same as another. I've attended and played at dances where if you had a beer or a cigarette or a hamburger you had better damn well go and hide yourself when you do it, and I couldn't help comparing this with the historical description of folk dances, which were basically parties where people drank, chewed, and whatever. In Irish Ceilis and Bothys of days gone by, do you think they meditated silently with Enya humming across a room with air as clear as bottled spring water? Today we want everything sanitized, and we pick and choose the parts that we can put up with in out daily lives and our neat homes and apartments. A Commanche blanket looks great on the wall, but how many are even interested in the kind of nature-centered culture that made them, let alone be willing to practice such? A large group of left-wing political types here in the seventies, of which I was a member, decided (not including me) that they were Sufis. The extent of it was that they had circles and group hugs that ended in "Ommm".

I'm not telling anyone to drink or smoke or to endanger their own health by hanging around smoky rooms. I have just so often seen this as more of a judgement of character than a health issue, and that is foolish and wrong. Will we now ban Hemingway for not being a good role model? I suspect so, if he and his work are not just forgotten altogether, as they are in today's literature classes.

Sometimes we give our culture away because it doesn't quite smell right. Sorry if I made anyone mad or uncomfortable.

Chet


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:15 PM

Yes that guest was rude. She was also very funny. For the record my Dad quit smoking many years ago, about five years after that lunch, and he remembers that meal time with great humour.

And Frank what you say about treating the planet badly rings true in our local park. Smokers seem to think the public beach is a public ashtray. I have fantasies of dumping my kitchen scraps on their front lawns the way they dump their butts on our beach.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 09:11 PM

You've hit on one of my pet peeves. Cigarette smoke. I hate it. I've had to put up with it in night clubs and places that I had to play. I've developed a mild emphesema and I have never smoked.

I've observed that people who don't treat their bodies very well tend to treat the planet the same way. Count the amount of cigarette butts on the steps of the office buildings of any major city. In my personall experience the smokers I have known became desensitized to their surroundings and their unhealthy effect on others.

Pot is a total waste of time and does affect your mental capacity. It's as lethal as tobacco in it's own way. I've used pot and regret every time that I have. It has done me no good. It certainly didn't add to my music. And you can get a hangover from pot. Most potheads are pretty ridiculous to listen to in conversations.

Marion, there's nothing wrong about standards for finding a mate. Someone who abuses their body is a possible candidate for abusing you.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 07:28 PM

It's an academic difference for me too, since I don't smoke either, but the reasons that I consider pot to be a lesser evil are:

1. While pot isn't exactly calcium-enriched orange juice, it's not as unhealthy as tobacco 2. Pot isn't physically addictive 3. Second hand pot smoke smells better than second hand tobacco (there's my shallow side), and isn't routinely inflicted on other people 4. Pot has alternative therapeutic uses, while tobacco has alternative insecticidal uses.

And for the record, I think Sophocleese's guest was hideously rude... and I'd rather smoke than commit adultery.

Cheers, Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM

Clinton - great comments! But I do see a big difference between pot smoking and cigarette smoking. Cigarettes may shorten your life, but pot (heavy use, at least) reduces your IQ. I'd rather give up days than brains!

... but then, this is all academic for me; I don't smoke either!


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 04:53 PM

Neat thread... my 0.02...

I smoke, I drink, No other drugs though, I eat meat raw when I can get it, and I wear vegitarian pelts in winter! LOL!

To quote Robert Heinlien (sp?) by way of Stan Rogers... When sampling life, take big bites... Moderation is for monks...

sophocleese: I'd tell the guest to sit out on the porch while my dad finished his pipe...

Marion: I have a hard time thinking of someone more maladjusted than Marge Simpson! LOL! And I as well have a tough time seeing the difference between pot smoking and tobacco smoking?!? Isn't that called a double standard?!? And I believe that, at the same time, love is blind, yet there is someone out there for everyone... If ya'd told me 10 years ago that I'd be married to a woman who's in business (getting her MBA, I'm getting my PHT) I'da laughed till I puked!!


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 04:30 PM

a young secretary was having lunch in a local restaurant. After eating, she lit up a cigarette. An old woman in the next booth said "I'd rather commit adultry than smoke!" the secretary said "So would I. but, I only get an hour for lunch."


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 04:09 PM

Then there was the guest at our house one lunch time who, when my father started his post prandial pipe, proclaimed loudly "I'd as soon masturbate in public as smoke in public!" My father retreated to the porch.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Michael K.
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 03:43 PM

I believe Steve Martin summed it up best.

''Do you mind if I smoke?''

''I dunno. Do you mind if I fart?''

Bottom line I guess, if that if hormones and total attraction are running rampant, a little bad breath is not going to deter a red blooded, heterosexual male. (Just feed her some Clorets first.)

What about kissing someone with wine breath or beer breath? (grin) Same difference if you ask me.


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 02:45 PM

Very thought-provoking, folks. I can't help but wonder who are really the hopeless romantic fools: those who say that love is blind and unpredictable so I shouldn't try to name my terms, or those who say to keep faith that the right person is out there and so I shouldn't settle for anyone else.

Maybe someday when I'm as old as you gang, I'll know. But you'll probably be dead by then so I'll get the last laugh anyway...:)

I can't help but think of what my mentor, Marge Simpson, told her daughter: "Most women will tell you that it's no use trying to change a man. These women are quitters!"

And I can't help but think of what she said when she learned her son had become a vampire: "Today he's drinking people's blood...tomorrow he may be smoking!"

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 02:20 PM

LOL, kendall. Thanks, Bert, I will. He does go outside and has for years, so at least it isn't in the house or in teh car with me. And, he did recently agree to go let the doc listen to his lungs, so....I will try to be patient. Good for Tree!

kat


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