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Ragtime Guitar

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murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 25 Nov 99 - 05:44 AM
Gary T 25 Nov 99 - 07:57 AM
Michael K. 25 Nov 99 - 10:47 AM
Rick Fielding 25 Nov 99 - 11:10 AM
Bob Landry 25 Nov 99 - 11:34 AM
Micca 25 Nov 99 - 01:35 PM
Michael K. 25 Nov 99 - 06:06 PM
Rick Fielding 25 Nov 99 - 06:19 PM
Michael K. 25 Nov 99 - 06:34 PM
Michael K. 25 Nov 99 - 06:38 PM
Micca 25 Nov 99 - 06:57 PM
Michael K. 25 Nov 99 - 07:13 PM
Micca 25 Nov 99 - 08:08 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 26 Nov 99 - 05:18 AM
bassen 26 Nov 99 - 05:53 AM
Frankie 26 Nov 99 - 09:03 AM
Tiger 26 Nov 99 - 09:10 AM
Frankie 26 Nov 99 - 09:31 AM
Terry Allan Hall 26 Nov 99 - 11:52 AM
Bob Landry 26 Nov 99 - 12:16 PM
Rick Fielding 26 Nov 99 - 01:47 PM
RWilhelm 26 Nov 99 - 06:44 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 27 Nov 99 - 01:22 AM
Frankie 27 Nov 99 - 11:53 AM
Rick Fielding 27 Nov 99 - 12:39 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 28 Nov 99 - 12:58 AM
Rick Fielding 28 Nov 99 - 01:43 AM
Frankie 28 Nov 99 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,scott joplin 06 Mar 06 - 05:23 AM
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Subject: Ragtime Guitar
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 05:44 AM

This is related to my posting on the Cincinnati Flow Rag.

I have an idea of what I mean by "ragtime guitar" when I refer to it. I recently told a classical guitarist that I like to play ragtime guitar, and the discussion evolved into one at cross purposes. He read this as meaning setting of formal piano rags (ala Scott Joplin) for the guitar. Apparently classical guitarists like to play these. I meant something different. I meant the style of playing exemplified by Blind Blake, Rev. Gary Davis, Blind Lemmon Jefferson, Blind Boy Fuller, etc. Can anyone come up with a good definition of ragtime guitar.

What came first rags or ragtime? Are rags a kind of ragtime music?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 07:57 AM

In my limited knowledge, it started with rag as a verb--to "rag" a song was to spice it up rhythmically, akin to synchopation.


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Michael K.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 10:47 AM

"Rags" is the short-form or colloquialism of "Ragtime Songs". They are one and the same.

My understanding of Ragtime as it applies to fingerstyle acoustic guitar (and please, anyone correct me if I'm wrong) is the concept of keeping a strong alternating bass going with the thumb, while playing chords and melody lines with the other fingers. The thumb simulates what the left hand would be doing on the piano and the other fingers simulate what the right hand would be doing on a piano.

Generally this style is characteristic for Ragtime pieces however there are many many folk and country blues songs that follow this format as well, which are not considered Rags.


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 11:10 AM

Hi Murray. Mike is right, but in the "folk" nomenclature this sort of thing crops up all the time. We constantly use "nick-names" for things that mean absolutely nothing to folks outside the field. For example, Pete Seeger used the term "frailing" to mean a certain kind of banjo style and years later realized that it was so "colloquial" that the majority of southern banjo pickers didn't know what it meant, while a whole generation of Northern pickers thought it was the "official" term. Same with "ragtime guitar". There are infinitely more accessible notes on a piano than a guitar so any "guitar rag" is by definition only an approximation of the original tune. To a classical guitarist the term rag-time guitar would probably mean nothing. On the other hand "syncopated, alternating bass figured, blues scaled, instrumental music played on steel stringed Spanish guitar" would probably convince him that he didn't want to hear it anyway!
Rick


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Bob Landry
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 11:34 AM

One of the few tunes I can flat pick, sort of, is the Steel Guitar Rag. When I learned it, I added rock rhythms and was promptly told that a steel guitar player could never play it that was. I've since toned it down and now, when jamming with my buddies (including a great pedal steel player), we do a credible job. As far as Scott Joplin goes, I sit and listen to more impossible dreams.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 01:35 PM

If you need definition of Ragtime guitar listen to Stefan Grossman play "Dallas Rag" on his album "Yazoo Basin Boogie", It was this that convinced me to give up any hope of ever playing the guitar.


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Michael K.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:06 PM

To Micca:

I am familiar with this arrangement as I too have the video which contains this tune.

Granted it's not an easy arrangement or suitable for a beginner of fingerstyle guitar to tackle...but if you have been working on more elementary exercises and songs you should be able to work up to the level necessary to tackle it.

In order to improve as a player (and if, part of this improvement is in learning others arrangements --contructive but debatable) you need to have the ''courage'' and discipline to undertake things that may appear to be out of your league or expertise and to not be intimidated by someone else level of playing. That's one of the ways to grow as a musician...and Grossman's been playing guitar for 35+ years.

(Granted some people may not necessarily want to improve beyond their current capability, because they are comfortable with where they are as a player, or do it just for pure fun and don't have the time to practise..or a variety of different reasons. To each his own.)

However, one way to figure out if it's time to grow, is if you find all the tunes you're learning are easy to figure out and play in a short period of time (week or two of practise), then you're definitely ready to challenge yourself....assuming you are up for the challenge.

When I got back into fingerpicking a few years ago (after a 25 year absence from touching a guitar - long story) I bought quite a few of Grossman's videos because at the time I couldn't find a teacher capable of taking me in the direction I wanted to go.) Unfortunately and again this is my taste only, I was disappointed with the selection of a lot of the tunes on his videos. That is not to say that there wasn't a lot of useful information nestled within those tunes - there was and I absorbed it) but a lot of the times I would take what I considered the ''intellectual hearts'' of the tunes and learn those sections without necessarily learning the entire arrangement. I could then craft my own tunes and improvise around these licks, riffs, chord formations and shapes and suit them more to my taste.

Personally, while I find Stefan a very technically excellent and knowledgable player and a good (albeit highly opinionated) teacher, it just amazes me at what a horrible, dirty, scratchy sound he gets out of his expensive Franklin guitars and, in a lot of cases his playing seems totally devoid of any soul or feel...more like listening to a machine. This is afterall a guy who spent his formative guitar learning years, learning to be an imitator and emulator of other people's styles, most notably Rev. Gary Davis who was his teacher, as well as Blind Blake, BB Broonzy, John Hurt and many many others...and of course on his videos he encourages you, the student to become an emulator as well. But this is my opinion only and I am sure there are many others that would totally disagree with me and think me out of my mind. That's fine.

Fortunately, for the past few months I have been working with an excellent teacher and have learned more with him and improved as a player in a few months, than in all the time I spent solely working off of video instruction and tab arrangements.

Don't give up playing the guitar if it brings you joy. It's not a competition. Playing and practising should be enjoyable. If it reaches a point where it isn't, then perhaps you have to rethink the situation (and if you're using an old vintage Martin to practise on and want to sell it (- call me!):-)

Personally, I do it as a hobby and have no desire to go and do gigs or be on stage performing. (Been there done that.) But I aspire to be the best fingerpicker I can be, given the capabilities and limitations I have and, I have a certain standard that I expect of myself, which I know (from years as a professional piano player) I am capable of attaing. I want to sound as good as any top recording fingerpicking artist, but without the pressure to perform or gig. I just like to hear that level of sound coming out of me. It's almost better than sex. (grin)


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:19 PM

Jeez Michael, you use my name to get me in trouble with Easy Rider, and then DON'T use it when you're being complimentary!!

Micca. I've seen Mike play Grossman's arrangement of "Dallas Rag", and you're right. It's very difficult. Don't let that throw you though. There are very few folks capable of playing something that difficult ...well. Mike does. But... a slightly simplified version might be well within your grasp and sure as heck is still ragtime. Do you have any friends you can play with? Split the tunes into 2 parts with one person taking melody and the other doing the bass. It'll sound just as good and take about one tenth the time to learn.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Michael K.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:34 PM

Rick Fielding is a wonderful teacher!

Okay?


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Michael K.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:38 PM

To Micca:

Further to Rick's message there is a more simplified arrangement of Dallas Rag (and it's not easy either but definitely easier than Grossman's verion) and it's done by David Bromberg. He also combines it into a medly with a watered down version of Maple Leaf Rag.

There is also tab available for it, if you have either the Tabledit Program or the Guitar Pro tab program. If you have either of these, let me know and I'll email you the tab arrangement.


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 06:57 PM

Forgive me, I didn't put the historical context to this I saw Stefan in the late 60s when he regularly played and appeared in London(UK)at a small folk club in Soho. Watching him simply pointed up the fact that I was not, and would never be prepared to devote the time and effort to acquiring that level of skill. I have a lot of difficulty with the period of time while learning when you are so bad that you sound awful I never really got over that. BTW another very talented Ragtime picker was John James who was also around at that time I noticed that they have re-released some of his albums on CD. A real treatif you can find them. Many thanks for your comments


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Michael K.
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 07:13 PM

Micca, Thanks for the perspective. So did you ever get past the - ''I have a lot of difficulty with the period of time while learning when you are so bad that you sound awful'' - period?

Years ago when I was a young pup, I was shown some very basic fingerpicking patterns using alternating bass. I learned them very quickly, but eventually got away from guitar playing.

A couple of years ago when I decided to get back into it, I did a stupid thing. I mean who goes and shops for a good (and expensive) acoustic steel string guitar without being able to play it? (I couldn't even make a clean sounding E chord at the time), and without having any callouses on one's fingers? All I had on the brain at the time was M A R T I N.....so I had other people in the store play a new reissue HD28-VR and they all gave me the nod...so I bought it. I spent the next two months practising my ass off, and undergoing the pain of redeveloping callouses. I sounded awful....BUT I knew deep down, that I'd get past this point if I stuck with it because I knew what I had once sounded like with a guitar and figured if I could do it once I could do it again.

Ironically my playing didn't seem to be improving during the first couple of months, but the callouses were happening all right. I came to a painful realization that it was the guitar not me....so I took it back to the store where I'd purchased it, ate humble pie and felt like an idiot and told the boss, "I just cannot play the neck on this guitar....I need something I can play."

I must have spent 3 hours there that day playing everything they had in the store, and nothing felt right. Finally at the end, I was about to leave and the owner said "Hang on. I got something in the back that just came in you should try." I had never heard of this company at the time but didn't care. I only wanted something that felt playable. I started playing this guitar and suddenly everything that I had become frustrated over, for the past few months was as clear as a bell on this instrument and it was effortless to play. I traded the Martin and bought the instrument and I've loved it ever since. In fact I use it to work out everything on, and then port the tunes over to some of my other guitars - but it continues to be the main woodshedding axe for me.

That guitar? A Collings OM3H. (Everyone I've shown and let it play it seems to want to mug me for it. (grin))

This was kind of an exceptional situation because the usual axiom is ''ts the player; not the instrument.'' In this case it WAS the instrument that was holding me back.

I have since learned to get around comfortably on Martins and V-necks...but I don't recommend them to someone starting out. Low profile or "soft V" is easier on the wrists and fingers.

(Sorry for the babbling.)


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 99 - 08:08 PM

No i never did , I got in to singing a bit and writing the odd parody, I still do not play an instrument except singing and any second now Liz the squeak will tell you how badly I do that , but it gives me a lot of pleasure and so long as you wash your hands afterwards......


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 05:18 AM

Mica: Don't forget that Stefan Grossman started to play the guitar when he was nine years old and made it his main interest.

Mike: I don't find Grossman as soul-less as you do. I do find that I get tired of listening to him for any length of time, so, given his technical brilliance, there must be something missing. I think part of the reason he seems to have a scratchy sound is because he is too heavy-handed on the bass. The boom-CHICK eventually dominates what you are hearing instead of acting like an accompanyment.

Bob: Is the Steel Guitar Rag actually played with a slide?

Mike and Rick: A lot of the Piedemont style players don't stick to an alternating bass; but sometimes "walk the bass" and sometimes have piano-like bass runs. Since this is "rubbish Stefan Grossman day", I think he loses this effect because of his heavy bass. I have a tape with him playing some of Davis's pieces and then Davis playing them. Quite often you are not even aware of the bass in the Davis version. (although I am sure you would miss it if it wasn't there!)

Murray


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: bassen
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 05:53 AM

As an apostate classical,(narrownecked, nylonstrung guitar with my legs crossed), ragtime and general fingerpickin' guitarist for the past 35 years (yikes!) I got used to using thumb and up to three fingers picking from the start. Once I got the rhythm of alternating bass and syncopated picking, I almost couldn't not pick that way. People got fed up with me syncopating everything. I figured out a credible version of Cincinnati Flow Rag from the Rev. Gary Davis recording, it's simplified and it keeps growing as I figure out how to do some of the stuff Davis does and then try to work that in to what I can do; his rag flows into mine...

I had a hiatus of about 10 years where I virtually didn't touch my guitar (carpal tunnel syndrome, 2 kids, new job etc) but found to my astonishment that after 10 years I could still whack out basic ragtime guitar.

Micca, for me it was simple, although a rank amateur and pretty much nonperformer, there were still a number of years where I simply could not exist without my guitar at arm's reach - I think it was more therapeutic than musical tho', thankfully I was never tempted to go on stage with "diary and Iwannagetlaid songs", but singing and playing them for myself for about 10 years certainly improved my picking! But I know what you mean, I've been listening to Leadbelly recordings since I was 14, I know I'll never come close to some of his guitar playing.

I always had the feeling that Grossman just didn't get inside what he was playing so to speak, in concert I kept my eyes on his hands, the songs never got to me as songs.

bassen


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Frankie
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 09:03 AM

Murray, going back to your original posting, if your looking for a term to describe the type of music that the country blues artists that you mentioned played, Grossman put together a great collection of arrangements by those artists called RAGTIME BLUES GUITAR (it also included himself Willie McTell, Bill Broonzy). I worked my way through it years ago and it's still paying dividends.

As for Stefan's playing I have to agree with many of the opinions here. He's done an awful lot for fingerpickers like me but I find most of his playing kind of stiff and almost didatic, like he's demonstrating rather than actually performing. There are some notable exceptions though like Bermuda Triangle Exit off his first collaboration with John Renbourn, which is beautifully rendered. Of course I generally find solo guitar a lot more fun to play than to listen to.

Regards, Frankie


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Tiger
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 09:10 AM

Michael K.......

I'd love to get that Bromberg tab, too, if it's not too much trouble. I use TablEdit and the computer stuff works fine - now, if I could just get the fingers to work as well!

I'm at: rsbassoc@neca.com

Thanks,......Tig


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Frankie
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 09:31 AM

Micca, I remember John James from a couple of Kicking Mule recordings, which I still listen to and he was (is?) great. He was pictured with Fylde guitars and his tone was really beautiful and unique. You know watching a guy like Grossman or Kottke can be intimidating but fingerstyle doesn't have to be complex to be good. I started out by learning John Fahey's stuff which is relatively straight forward but is still, to this day, very powerful and moving music.

F


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 11:52 AM

To Bob Landry:
To continue your threadlet on "Steel Guitar Rag"... Check out the original version of "Guitar Rag" by Silvester Weaver, that Leon McCauliff (sp?) "borrowed" (and took credit for!)...NICE LITTLE INSTRUMENTAL!...Another example of a black man's music stolen/exploited by white men.


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Bob Landry
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 12:16 PM

Mjurray, I don't use a slide (never tried one). Just a flat pick in my right hand fingers while the stiff fingers of my left hand move faster than they want to. The group I usually play this with involves two acoustic guitars and a pedal steel. The pedal steel player is the only one wth a slide. Everybody takes a turn at lead while the others do back-up. I start off because I'm the weakest player. Despite my fumbling, what a great sound we make.

You do bring up a good point. A single guitar player using a slide would come closer to emulating the sweet sound of the pedal steel. I'll have to try that.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 01:47 PM

Let's always keep in mind that it's guys like Grossman who put in the time and effort to popularise this music. Yah, he might be super-aggressive, and know how to run a business, but I wouldn't doubt for a moment that he absolutely loves and lives this music! I worked with him on a show in Toronto and he was gracious, friendly, and interested. He also seems to have little tolerance for folks he considers less-commited. But remember..He DID the work. Who would have heard the magnificently eery Mickey Baker (aside from his two rock hits) were it not for Stefan?

Rick


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: RWilhelm
Date: 26 Nov 99 - 06:44 PM

Murray,

Blind Blake, Blind Boy Fuller, Rev. Gary Davis, et al. played a style that is now called "Piedmont." It is considered a blues style heavily influenced by ragtime. You could use that term to differentiate their style from guitarists who play classic piano rags on guitar.


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 27 Nov 99 - 01:22 AM

I'm glad you said that Rick. The comments have been about playing style. I owe a debt of gratitude to Grossman for his recorded lessons that really got me started. You can imagine how hard it would be to find a good country blues guitar teacher in Sydney. I finally found a teacher who was a good guitarist and who was interested in learning this idiom himself and we bashed through the lessons together. I experimented with lessons by Rory Block and by Fred Sokolow; but it was Grossman's lessons that brought it all together.

I have emailed him from time to time with specific questions about details of Mississippi John Hurt's and Rev. Gary Davis's playing. He has always responded quickly and with relavant answers. I consider this a great luxury, since he played with those guys and learned directly from them.

Perahps in criticising one aspect of his playing I am being like the guy in the joke who was taken to his first vaudaville show by an enthusiastic friend. The last act consisted of a guy who played a gypsy violin while he kicked a pyramid of chairs into position and balanced himself on the top of the top chair on his nose and began to juggle five balls with his feet. At the end he jumped off the chairs, kicked the balls back into their box, and finished the tune--all without missing a beat on the fiddle. After the wild applause died down the enthusiast asked, "Well, what do you think of that?" "A Heifiz he's not," answered the first timer.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Frankie
Date: 27 Nov 99 - 11:53 AM

Rick- Amen to that, Stefan did do the work and is still doing it.I can't imagine someone sitting down in the mid-sixties trying to transcribe BL Jefferson off a scratchy old 78 and thinking this is my ticket to untold riches. Had to be a labor of love. You got me thinking that without him we wouldn't have a good part of Reverend Gary Davis' repertoire and may never have heard of players from the Kicking Mule era like Duck Baker, Ton Van Bergeyk, Dave Evans et al. More recently I've been knocked on my ear by a couple of great CD's he's produced, Ramble to Cashel and Blarney Pilgrim which introduced me to Pat Kirtley, Tom Long and Steve Baughman and caused me to get serious about DADGAD. Will the man never cease!? I hope not.

As for his heavy handed bass and "scratchy" textures I think that's quite deliberate. To my ears he's a string snapper in the tradition of Willie Brown and Bert Jansch to name a few.

Regards, Frankie


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Nov 99 - 12:39 PM

Thanks guys. Actually the "string snappin'" and buzzy basses brings up a good point. Remember when you first heard Charlie Patton? You'll never forget him, right? Not because of any virtuoso licks, but because of his "style" (and whacking his guitar was sure a style). There have been many others who sounded like they might have been "doin'things wrong" but it worked for them. Bob Dylan played his J-45 with low action and incredibly dead strings on his first album, and if that wasn't exciting dynamics, timing and great "feel" I don't know what was. If he'd been using a D-28 with medium action, it just wouldn't have sounded the same, and who knows whether his career might have taken a (slightly) different direction.
Back to Grossman, I didn't appreciate a live tape where I heard him badgering the Reverend into playing the blues (while his wife was supposedly in the other room) but once again, the energy level to do all that he's done is probably fuelled by a pretty big ego and "belief in self".. I'm okay with the "attitude" when I look at what he's produced for my enjoyment.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 12:58 AM

Did Davis's wife dissaprove of him playing the blues? I know Son Houses wife never would attend one of his performances for religious reasons; but I didn't know about Mrs. Davis.

I also notice on a tape (maybe the same one, Rick) that Grossman is coaxing Davis to sing the words to a tune (as I recall, something about Chatanooga). I am sort-of sorry he doesn't suceede, although it never occured to me that Davis might be refusing on principle.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 01:43 AM

My memory wanders at times Murray, I think that's the tape, and yup, Mrs. Davis didn't approve. It was just the stridency that I objected to. Kind of a "respect your elders thing". Maybe if I heard it for the first time recently it might not have bothered me.
Rick


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: Frankie
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 05:35 AM

Whoa, that one's tickling the fringe of my memory. I remember a recording of the reverend playing a tune and someone (Stefan?) saying "come on, sing it" and the Rev. going "uh unh".

Frankie


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Subject: RE: Ragtime Guitar
From: GUEST,scott joplin
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:23 AM


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