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guest nights and singaround clubs

Vic Smith 26 Oct 14 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 14 - 09:15 AM
TheSnail 26 Oct 14 - 07:00 AM
Musket 26 Oct 14 - 02:37 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Oct 14 - 02:15 AM
Jack Campin 25 Oct 14 - 09:04 PM
Richard Mellish 25 Oct 14 - 05:44 PM
Musket 25 Oct 14 - 04:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 14 - 02:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM
Musket 25 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 14 - 09:52 AM
Musket 25 Oct 14 - 09:28 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 14 - 08:37 AM
The Sandman 25 Oct 14 - 06:37 AM
Musket 25 Oct 14 - 05:36 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 14 - 05:39 PM
Richard Mellish 24 Oct 14 - 05:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Oct 14 - 04:21 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 14 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 14 - 09:47 AM
Musket 24 Oct 14 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 14 - 07:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 14 - 07:44 AM
Dave Sutherland 24 Oct 14 - 07:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 14 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 14 - 07:35 AM
Musket 24 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM
The Sandman 24 Oct 14 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 14 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Derrick 24 Oct 14 - 05:07 AM
r.padgett 24 Oct 14 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 14 - 03:47 AM
Musket 24 Oct 14 - 03:11 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 14 - 06:27 PM
The Sandman 23 Oct 14 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Bignige 23 Oct 14 - 03:37 PM
Vic Smith 23 Oct 14 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM
Musket 23 Oct 14 - 01:40 PM
The Sandman 23 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 14 - 12:10 PM
The Sandman 23 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 14 - 10:51 AM
johncharles 23 Oct 14 - 10:41 AM
The Sandman 23 Oct 14 - 09:54 AM
The Sandman 23 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 14 - 08:36 AM
Teribus 23 Oct 14 - 07:47 AM
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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 09:59 AM

I dropped out so as not to spoil another thread with our bickering and back-biting - suggest that everybody else does the same.

Hoo-bloody-ray!


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 09:15 AM

I responded to two questions directed at me (I was taught it was good manners)
I dropped out so as not to spoil another thread with our bickering and back-biting - suggest that everybody else does the same.
You want to continue this, open a thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 07:00 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 08:37 AM

This will be the last posting I make here


He's only posted twice since then so he's not doing too bad.

His attitude to me seems to be mellowing. He now only compares me to his old teachers. He once compared me to Goebbels.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 02:37 AM

Or the term for travellers as used by travellers round these parts. Diddycoys.
💤

You really know how to kill a good thread Jim. Once you work out that your view is not definitive no matter how many times you name drop people from the past, you might even have something to contribute. After all, looking to the future is helped by understanding the past.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 02:15 AM

"Come to think of it, I can't see where anybody alluded to Travelers in this thread until Jim did, either."
Sorry, my mistake, I should have said 'diddy' (diddycoy) referred to in his usually disparaging way by Muskie - equally objected to by the Travellers w know.
Apologies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 09:04 PM

Nobody used the word "knacker" in this thread until Jim brought it up.

News to me that it had anything to do with Travelers - in the language I speak, it either means a glue factory or a pair of testicles.

Come to think of it, I can't see where anybody alluded to Travelers in this thread until Jim did, either.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 05:44 PM

Much of this thread has been a mixture of reasoned debate and playground name-calling. Latterly the reasoned debate has largely dried up, and what little remains has been repetitous; while the name-calling is going stronger than ever.

I'm out of here too. The trolls can go on feeding each other if they wish.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 04:19 PM

I'd echo that but Al beat me to it
😄







Ithankyouverymuch


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 02:42 PM

Jim - you would make the first fifteen in any league of sneering . belittling. abusing team of bullies. your claims to have been bullied are bloody ridiculous,

you could bully for the small minded nations cup.

i always found Ewan and Peggy to be quite reasonable - however seeing you in action , has made me realise some of the criticisms of them might be justified. you must have picked that technique up somewhere.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 02:38 PM

Jim - you would make the first fifteen in any league of sneering . belittling. abusing team of bullies. your claims to have been bullied are bloody ridiculous,

you could bully for the small minded nations cup.

i always found Ewan and Peggy to be quite reasonable - however seeing you in action , has made me realise some of the criticisms of them might be justified. you must have picked that technique up somewhere.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM

You don't say.

Good job I've got you to teach me what we thick buggers are too poorly educated to know. Were you that condescending to your diddycoy mates?

Give it a rest Jim. You just keep digging your grave with your gob when it comes to credibility.

😸


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 09:52 AM

Flashman
"Flashman is a fictional character created by George MacDonald Fraser (1925–2008), but based on the character "Flashman" in Tom Brown's School Days (1857), a semi-autobiographical work by Thomas Hughes (1822–1896).
In Hughes' book is portrayed as a notorious bully at Rugby School who persecutes Tom Brown, and who is finally expelled for drunkenness".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 09:28 AM

Flashman?

I suppose that term is in keeping with living the dream. I assume it is an insult mind.

You know, if I were to read my contributions to this thread, I doubt you will see anything other than observation and personal predilection.

Not that it stops Jim.

We are supposed to be discussing The UK folk scene. I suppose my next observation would have Jim calling me a goose stepper again. 😄. Out of interest I have never called diddycoys knackers. 😇


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 08:37 AM

This will be the last posting I make here; I want no part of a set-up which indulges in attacks on Travellers (knackers) and who allows open insults of elderly singers, no matter what mealy-mouthed excuse is given for doing so.
There is a great deal of whingeing taking place about my insulting people.
Muskett, who has consistently attacked everyone who disagrees with him, often in abusive terms and has now swamped three discussions with his persistent abusive bullying – behave like a bullying thug if that's what turns you on, but don't be surprised when you become identified as one.
By the way – you were not called a "goose-stepper" because of your ideas, but because of your 'Flashman-like' behaviour – don't suppose this will stop you from hiding behind your dishonest claims, though.
Bryan the Snail, who appears to be incapable of addressing an arguments without couching his postings in supercilious and unfriendly terms, and whose dishonest claim of my "going into clubs brandishing a copy of '54", and "selective reading" elicited my response of "arrogant little pratt"
I have always found his attitude on this forum reminiscent of all those teachers way back, who felt that their role in life was to make us understand that our opinions were worth nothing and the sooner we understood that fact, the better we would make our way through the adult world – "arrogant pratts all".
Then there's Al, who took his harp to a party and nobody asked him to play.
In revenge, he started off by describing The Grey Cock as unfriendly (debatable, but credible), then warmed to his theme by claiming the residents to be talentless messers dressed in fishermen's smocks – an utterly ridiculous invention about a group of artists and enthusiasts with an enviable track record to show otherwise
I bothered to respond, eventually angrily, to this nonsense because I was familiar with the club, I visited it on numerous occasions and I guested there once as a singer – I knew many of the people involved personally, mainly as accomplished singers and musicians who dedicated a great deal of their time to the music I love.
I find the public denigration of any fellow devotee of music distasteful at any time, even when deserved (unless, of course, their behaviour damages that music in any way), but Al's unmerited attack was beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned.
He topped of his accusations off by quoting the supposed support of one of the leading figures in folk music, Martin Carthy, by claiming to quote something he had been told IN CONFIDENCE – I wouldn't buy a used car from someone so prepared to break a confidence – but that's me!
Last but not least, we have Dick, who is still whining about my calling him a talentless moron.
Dick has stalked me throughout at least ten threads now with around a couple of dozen abusive postings offering virtually nothing else other than abuse – included in these was a threat in the finest "Stay out of Tombstone stranger" tradition.
I have requested him not to stalk, even to the extent of threatening, to report his behaviour to the thread administrators, in an effort to make him stop, which he did for a period - now he is back, larger than life and twice as inarticulate.
I'm finished with this rather unpleasant slanging match – I'll leave it with those with stronger stomachs than mine to continue, if they find any value in it.
If this is a sample of what the folk scene has to offer nowadays, I want no part of it.
Have a good day, y'all – I'm off to do a couple of day's work on recordings of people who loved the music enough to throw open their house to aspiring young singers like me (way back when) once a week for ten years of their busy lives – they are the people I like to remember as being part of the folk music scene – a million miles from all this!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 06:37 AM

I was called a talentless moron.
There are very few people who do gigs, whose instrumentation smothers the words.
I get booked consistently because [live] I have good voice projection that is not smotherd by accompaniment a number of people also like my concertina acompaniments, a remark was made by Jim about a clip of John of dreams, in fact the words are very clear, even with poor recording equipment [one cheap microphone], obviously for commercial recordings I would use more sophisticated recording equipment., but these clips are not commercial recordings. Jim has never heard me live, but insults me by calling me a talentless moron.
[fact]
I sang the song last night live [it was very well receieved] at least 3 people complimented my singing, this is not bragging but a statement of fact.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 05:36 AM

No problem with calling a spade an earth inverting horticultural implement.

Or calling Jim a daft twat for that matter. I suppose that if someone says you don't love the music you love and questions your intelligence all for pointing out that folk music carried on after the old men Jim revered isn't folk. Point out the lack of logic in his stance and you are suddenly a goose stepper.

From then on, I treat him as a foolish old man with no credibility and nothing to offer. Taking the piss is far better than debating with pork.

So daft twat isn't too bad after all. Cathartic and surprisingly accurate.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:39 PM

Now, what do the words "you daft twat" add to that discussion?

About as much as "arrogant little pratt".


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:30 PM

None of us is perfect, but I take exception to some of Musket's recent posts, particularly
"Jim reckons good technical guitarist skill has fucked up many a folk song.

No, you daft twat. It has made some crap songs listenable."

Jim has an opinion. Musket has a different opinion. No problem there: we're all entitled to our respective opinions. I happen to share Jim's, but many people evidently share Musket's, and demonstrate it by themselves indulging in instrumental playing that smothers the words. That's their choice in a free country. (I have done it myself, but only rarely and definitely not intentionally.)

Now, what do the words "you daft twat" add to that discussion? Hint: they don't advance the case of the person using them.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 04:21 PM

well Jim, would it were four.

one decent gentle guy, earlier in the year asked me how to deal with an avalanche of nasty abuse you had heaped on him because you felt you had superior knowledge about some topic.

i explained that you were greatly respected on the English scene. but things hadn't really worked out for your faction of the folkscene. MacColl had expected to be the big cheese, but had been cruelly supplanted by younger fresher talents. and the bitterness and vitriolic anger that spewed out from you was in some way forgiveable because of the feeling of rejection that you laboured under. so we all cut you an awful lot of slack, and just walked away when the nastiness got too intense.

you have a real talent for abuse. a real deafness and blind eye for any opinion that doesn't chime in with you. characters like musket and myself have developed hides like rhinos - after a lifetime in northern clubs, and amongst the mining villages of notts, derby and yorkshire. but others find your abuse very very hurtful.

stop using folk music as an excuse to be nasty to people.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

"Jim, I don't know if you have noticed but you have managed to piss off an extraordinariliy diverse range of people. Time for a little self analysis perhaps?"
And then there were four
Time for a change, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 11:19 AM

Jim, I don't know if you have noticed but you have managed to piss off an extraordinariliy diverse range of people. Time for a little self analysis perhaps?


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:47 AM

"If you are never gratuitously abusive, a good start would be to stop being gratuitiously abusive"
Once again - show me where I have
I have responded to your bullying strongly, but I have continued to put forward my case, despite your constant misrepresenting of it and my requesting to do so.
You have set out to inslt those who oppose you, you have derided traditional song and the old people who sang them and those who like them - your behaviour has been one of a bully.
If I have lost credibility, as you claim, show me where I have.
Personally, I have had enough of your behaviour and ham happy to leave you to wallow in it - in which case, you have won - in your way.
I hope that gives you a degree of satisfaction.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:29 AM

I've been many times Dave and was made welcome. It is a club that infers traditional music, so that's what I sang and presumed others would be singing. A long time since I got down and great to hear it is still going strong. If it were other than a traditional club, I would have geared my songs to fit. I recall my mate Mitch getting a good reception mind, and he has only ever sung songs he wrote..

Jim. If you are never gratuitously abusive, a good start would be to stop being gratuitiously abusive. As ever, I started laughing at you and dismissing you as daft as a result of your attacks on any view other than yours. You insist that you know what is folk, what is expected by the word and what is wrong with it.

Having lost credibility, your posts now just attract the attention of pomposity bubble prickers, of which I have a long service medal.

Your move.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:53 AM

"You live in a vet glassy house Jim."
I may lose my rag but I am never gratuitously abusive, as has happened time after time on the last three threads.
Perhaps you have something to say on the subject, or perhaps you want to just join in the kicking match?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:44 AM

very not vet!


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:43 AM

"The folk clubs doing best seem to be those who recognise all folk and welcome all styles within the genre"
The folk club that I help run in Long Eaton is called "Traditions at the Tiger (Tigerfolk)" which suggests that you could expect to hear traditional folksongs, music and stories there. Last time I counted we had been running for twenty three years and we are booked up until this time next year.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:41 AM

You live in a vet glassy house Jim.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:35 AM

"reckless old farts who like to play time capsules. "
Can I make a request here.
Can I ask that, out of common decency, if nothing else, this ends here.
I have no objection to beinf g rgued against or disagreed with - I'm quite prone to losing my own rag on occasion.
What has developed among a couple of of people is deliberate insulting and stalking - insults and invective instead of argument.
It is a form of bullying in order to silence opposition.
Dick has made around twenty insulting postings, mainly directed at me, but others have pointed out his insulting behaviour.
Muskie has now begin stalking from thread to thread with sneery insults and very little content, sich as above.
Isn't it about time this stopped?
If it doesn't, maybe a site regulator can have a word in the right ear.
Enough is enough - the pair of you, you are deliberately nausing up argument.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:26 AM

Folk clubs are doing fine Jim. The popular revival of the genre just isn't part of it.

The folk clubs doing best seem to be those who recognise all folk and welcome all styles within the genre. The others will sadly fade.

Generally speaking, those that would dismiss your main stance as irrelevant are growing, not that they gave ever heard of you that is. If you say Walter, they say "pardon?" There is usually one stickler for a club that never really existed in every club, but Jim and likeminded seem to have developed a commune on Mudcat.

The saddest part being that Father Time will play a game of last man standing if the evolution of folk is held back by reckless old farts who like to play time capsules.
😴


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:24 AM

folk clubs are places where people go to listen to folk music to sing and to socialise.
Folk club organisers particularly those like the organisers of LWES THURSDAY CLUB who have done it for 40 or 50 years, have done a great job.
I find it sad when no one is prepared to take over a long running club, there are probably a host of reasons, but it is still sad, and those people who have run clubs for many years deserve a lot of praise for their work.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:15 AM

"depend on you attracting sufficient numbers to make it viable."
I agree, and attracting and keeping them depends on presenting evenings that do not fall below a certain standard, not necessarily particularly high, but at least competent - certainly not embarrassing, as some I have attended, have been.
In my opinion, the success of any club depends on local participation, not jut as bums on seats, but as singers and organisers - you can stay at home and watch the 'professionals' on tele.
The 'grass-roots' nature of the folk scene is what made it unique.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 05:07 AM

What ever you call your gathering,folk club,session,or open mike night,or any other title you have an idea of what policy and content you want to present.
You advertise said gathering and hopefully give an indication of what your policy is.
If people are interested they will come and try out your gathering.
Continued success will depend on you attracting sufficient numbers to make it viable.
This applies to any form of policy,be it a club of the sort that Jim believes it should be,or Musket,Al or Gss or anyone else would prefer to see.
Clubs,sessions or any other gathering only work if enough people in your neighbourhood have a common interest.
If you are the only person who has that particular vision it will fail.
That's life.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 04:30 AM

we do seem to be going round in circles

I posted this on a mudcat thread recently:

""I have recently had a long fb argument re Folk21 which I will not start here!""

However we have now got Concert clubs booking guests regularly weekly or monthly etc with quality guests costing money and needing audiences

Folk clubs are different and may book say once a month guest doing say 2 x 45 mins and other weeks with a singaround sort of set up and some who will not go when a guest is booked as they want to play/sing etc or Hot Spots of say 40 mins

Voices singarounds which meet say once a month (like Birstall and Lincoln) no instruments singarounds

Sessions which are music only (Celtic sessions) for example

Mixed sessions catering for song/instruments and accompanied and unaccompanied

Fragmentation, but the scene could be said to be the better for it, (or not!!)

The scene has moved on and different set ups require different "folk" from "book" singers to concert artists and everything in between, soem work some don't

Ray


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:47 AM

"No bloody wonder the folk revival taking place under our noses is happening everywhere other than in folk clubs."
Where is it "taking place under our noses" if not the clubs
You've been telling us that the clubs are doing fine - now you're saying that nothing is happening there - consistency boy, consistency
Who do you think you are telling us what we should be interested in and what we should be discussing?
You've already demanded we turn folk music of to the pop music industry- now you're telling us how we should enjoy it - books next!!
THE FUTURE FOR FOLK CLUBS
Do you really mean to troll this thread to death as you have the last two?
Kindly mind your own business and let those of us who are interested get on with it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:11 AM

Whoa betide any poor bugger who just goes for the fun and entertainment. We can't have the committee proposing a vote of censure on people who go to see their mates, can we?

I apologise on behalf of thousands of people who over the years have misinterpreted the rules of Jim's hobby and thought it was entertainment. If only Jim had sent us all a set of standing orders and memorandum and articles of association, then we wouldn't be so confused over the rules.

No bloody wonder the folk revival taking place under our noses is happening everywhere other than in folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 06:27 PM

"I feel it too but the alternative was for us to plod on and become less effective with age and see a decline set in"
I was sorry to see your club Vic - I know we valued you as someone we could approach when we had a guest's tour to organise (and of course, to lose another principled club).
I am sorry to have involved you in this, but I thought your own position was not unsimilar to Peggy's after Ewan's death - close or see the club run down after a long and pretty proud history
I think we've had enough of this nonsense Dick, don't you?
You think folk clubs are social clubs were people sing - I think they are clubs set up to sing and listen to songs - silly me.
Let someone else have a go, shall we
"Meanwhile Festivals appear the thrive"
Takes the 'local' aspect out of the scene for me - and excludes too many people, particularly the less well off and those with families - no comparison, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 03:42 PM

"no, people go to socialise at folk clubs they always have done,"
In the clubs you go to maybe - the ones I was involved in where the people wanted to sing or listen to singing"
correct, they do both,i have not said they did not go there to sing or not to listen to singing.
"you are the one that has said singing of any worth cannot take place unless they are present"
where have i said this? i have not, stop making things up.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 03:37 PM

I know of quite a few clubs in our area with the same problem, ie ageing organisers, no young blood interested in taking over, dwindling audiences. Meanwhile Festivals appear the thrive, the King is dead, long live the King.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 03:08 PM

I was saddened when one of the Lewes Clubs closed when Vic and Tina Smith retired
Well, we had to sometime and my 70th birthday and with the club still vibrant and financially viable, it seemed to be a good time to pass on to someone else. We gave 12 months notice of our intention to stand down after 50 years of running a weekly folk club - and we both had and still have many regular commitments to the folk scene including the Lewes festival. We tried to groom younger residents to take more responsibility but all to no avail. The person who showed the most interest in taking over was three months younger than me! Sadly. when we went through the list of things that we did on a weekly basis to ensure that there was a sizable audience and enough quality performers each week, I'm afraid that we frightened him off.
Yes, Jim, it is sad; I feel it too but the alternative was for us to plod on and become less effective with age and see a decline set in. As it is we can both look back with a sense of achievement and pride.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:41 PM

"no, people go to socialise at folk clubs they always have done,"
In the clubs you go to maybe - the ones I was involved in where the people wanted to sing or listen to singing
It's bloody nonsense to organise a singing club for any other reason - you may as well stay down in the bar and "socilalise"
"They also go to listen to folk music"
No - they primarily go to listen to songs or sing them.
They may meet other people, but they can do that down in the pub
This is grotesque
"you are the one that has said singing of any worth cannot take place unless they are present"
No I didn't - you can stay home and sing in the bath.
"provided they practise, it is about having a professional approach, not being paid for it."
Now you are prevaricating - we are discussing booking paid performers, which you have advocated BECAUSE, ACCORDING TO YOU, THE STANDARD OF SINGING IN SINGAROUNDS IS SO BAD - SHUFFLING PAPERS, ET AL.
I have asked you a couple of times now to state whether this is your position - perhaps you might care to do so now.
"The Singers club closed?"
Sorry John - missed a bit - the Singers Club closed shortly after the death of Ewan, basically on the departure of Peggy to the States.
Earlier, it had tried to cope with a crisis when the Critics Group broke up acrimoniously
It continued for a while as Ewan and Peggy's club, with the support of a few others
When Ewan died, Peggy continued for a while, but when wshe went, there weer not enough people of skill and experience to make a go of it.
I was saddened when one of the Lewes Clubs closed when Vic and Tina Smith retired - not an unsimilar situation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:40 PM

Jim reckons good technical guitarist skill has fucked up many a folk song.

No, you daft twat. It has made some crap songs listenable...

I wish you understood music as well as you do cataloguing and noting.


😂


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM

"people go there to socialise as well, more so than they do with concerts."
NO THEY DO NOT - this is the arrogance of the professional performer - that singing of any worth cannot take place unless they are present"
no, people go to socialise at folk clubs they always have done, that is what a club means, they also go to listen to folk music, they got to meet other people who are interested in the same kind of music., and also listen to that music.
you are the one that has said singing of any worth cannot take place unless they are present, i certainly have not said it, i believe anyone can sing well provided they practise, it is about having a professional approach , not being paid for it.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 12:10 PM

"people go there to socialise as well, more so than they do with concerts."
NO THEY DO NOT - this is the arrogance of the professional performer - that singing of any worth cannot take place unless they are present.
THEY SHOULD GO THERE PRIMARILY TO SING - socialising is, or should be, subsidiary to this.
I can go down to the pub to socialise, and if the landlord is tolerant enough, we might even get a few songs in.
"i disagree it makes a lot of difference as does having ten good residents."
Are you suggesting that paper=-shuffling is the norm?
Why did the clubs close - been through that - probably because too many clubs decided not to tell the potential punters what they were likely to hear when they turned up at a folk club - it's why me and my mates stopped going.
Some of the best singers on the scene did a runner when that became the norm.
I couldn't give a toss if Boomtown wannabes are virtuosi or have to read from crib-sheets - it's not what I want to hear at a folk club - not the organisers of some clubs nowadays, apparently
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM

I agree clubs are different from concerts, people go there to socialise as well, more so than they do with concerts.
why did the singers club close?
"I suggest (or I hope) that your description of "half a dozen or ten regulars shuffling papers" or being "unprepared" - in which case an army of paid guests isn't going to make a happorth of differenc"
i disagree it makes a lot of difference as does having ten good residents.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 10:51 AM

"but if the club does not have good resident singers,"
If a club does not hve a team of competent ("good" is too loaded a term) turning it into a venue for guests is not a viable alternative - you may as well abandon running a club and just hold concerts, it ceases to be a club.
I suggest (or I hope) that your description of "half a dozen or ten regulars shuffling papers" or being "unprepared" - in which case an army of paid guests isn't going to make a happorth of difference
Unless club organisers get up off their collective bums and change that situation, they may as well just run concerts - I'm sure local councils would be happy to co-operate in such enterprises.
Personally, I'd rather there was a good local scene up and running before you embark on paying out for guests.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 10:41 AM

So why is it that clubs with great residents and guests e.g. The Singers club closed?
john


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:54 AM

this is what i said,
Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM

ubject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Oct 14 - 11:08 AM

In the past, the best clubs were those that you field a team of their own residents good enough to take a whole evening to themselves
Singers from the floor spots gave visitors a chance to be heard and, if good enough, be invited to perform regularly.
The most imaginative clubs were those that ran workshops to enable new or inexperienced singers to develop and gain confidence.
The clubs I was involved with had a conscious policy of only having one guest night in every four - none of them ever really needed more than that as the residents were competent to take full evenings themselves, that way, we could use the door-takings for publicity and projects such as research and producing song books.
Too many guests always seemed to me to be counter-productive - far more valuable to establish a strong home-base
Jim Carroll"
Yes very good points,
but if the club does not have good resident singers, or only a couple of good residents it is better to have guests who are professional in their attitude and are good competent performers, rather than having MANY singers who are unprepared, shuffling though papers etc, most people will tolerate the occasional duff unprepared performer, but not half a dozen or ten of them.
And AS YOU AND EVERYONE CAN SEE i also said you made very good points, when you say something i think is good i say so.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM

no jim, you have misunderstood me, I am arguing the same as you for high standards professionalism or attempts at that.
i agree with you that the best sorts of clubs are clubs that have a good core of high qualityy singers such as the Wilsons club[ which just for the record I have been boooked at a number of times ,
what i have said that if that if the club does not have a lot of good residents perhaps only one or two then a professional guest will help bring the standard up, if you go back and check my posts you will find that is what i said.
I said "that if they did not have much in the way of home grown talent", not that booking professional guest was better than having a lot of good residents.


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 08:36 AM

"no one can accuse me of being a copyist"
Nobody has, as far as I know, but the thrust of your, and other arguments seems to be that in order for clubs to improve they should rely on professional gusts rather than their own home talent.
If clubs are to have any future, they have to develop a basis of local performers rather than become mini-concerts for superstars.
The best clubs in the past, London, Manchester and Birmingham in my experience, used traditional songs as a foundation and developed from there, extending into songwriting, folk theatre and local research - not in flapping and saying "Ooooh, there weren't enough people here last week, lest book a few 'names' to boost the numbers" - there is no future for that sort of policy.
It should never be about putting bums on seats alone.
Head counting has apparently taken the place of everything, including definition (it can only be a folk song if it's in the top twenty)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:47 AM

Some great lines in this that I most heartily agree with:

Jim Carroll - Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:59 AM

1: My point is - not particularly with Simpson but all those 'superstars' who made instrumental accompaniment an object in itself rather than what it what it claims to be - 'accompaniment'.

2: I particularly remember one of the electric groups (Steeleye maybe) playing a reel in the middle of a long, narrative ballad - utterly ludicrous!

3: The clubs began to career downhill when they filled with Waterson wannabes, or Joanie clones or Martin mimickers and when singers stopped trying to sound like themselves.

4: The joy of folk singing is giving your own interpretation of a song and not somebody else's - that was the privilege performing in clubs gave us."


WELL SAID!!!


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