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BS: scottish independence

Jim McLean 04 Sep 14 - 01:06 PM
Rapparee 04 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM
Ed T 04 Sep 14 - 09:02 AM
Howard Jones 04 Sep 14 - 08:43 AM
Ed T 04 Sep 14 - 07:29 AM
Stu 04 Sep 14 - 07:16 AM
Stu 04 Sep 14 - 07:03 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 14 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Grishka 04 Sep 14 - 06:17 AM
Jack Blandiver 04 Sep 14 - 05:07 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM
Musket 04 Sep 14 - 04:31 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Sep 14 - 04:14 AM
Dave Hanson 04 Sep 14 - 02:48 AM
michaelr 04 Sep 14 - 01:18 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 14 - 09:46 PM
Bill D 03 Sep 14 - 08:10 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 14 - 07:56 PM
The Sandman 03 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 01:06 PM

It comes down to the term Democratic deficiency. It makes no difference how Scotland votes, the Westminster government will be decided by the English majority so independence will redress this. The rest of the UK will have the government it elects and everybody will be happy! And it should be emphasised that this is not ethnic nationalism but civic nationalism, independent of one's nationality, the voters will be those living in Scotland at the time of the referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

I have a unique culture and would like to become my own country. My culture is positive, my language gibberish, my money...WHAT money? I don't got no money. A positive Wassermann is probably not unique enough.

Ah, well....


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 09:02 AM

Does having a unique culture make a successful country alone?

I suspect economic matters are an important, if not a greater, consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 08:43 AM

After 300 years Scotland retains its distinctive culture and its own legal system. Devolution has already given them a great deal of autonomy. It even has its own banknotes, and although they are not legal tender they are accepted as if they were. Nationalists complain about being ruled by distant London, but Scottish votes have a disproportionate effect on the balance of power in the Westminster parliament.

From an English perspective I'd say they were doing pretty well within the UK and would be mad to give it up. In reality an independent Scotland will still remain heavily dependent on the rest of the UK simply because we are their much bigger neighbour, but they will have far less influence.

It's hard to guess how it will turn out, with the polls being so close. The "Yes"s certainly appear to be running a more vigorous campaign. Scots have a reputation for canny hard-headedness, especially where money is concerned, but they are also quite romantic about their country. Will head rule the heart?

If the referendum goes Salmond's way on the 18th, I'm looking forward to seeing his face on the 19th when Shetland declares independence. The same arguments apply - they have their own culture, as much if not more Scandinavian than Scottish; they are as remote from Edinburgh as it is from London; and they have half the oil. That would put the cat among the pigeons!


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 07:29 AM

The real test would not be for the wish, but in the details of what would happen afterwards?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 07:16 AM

'islands'


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 07:03 AM

"The cumulative effect of the Clearances devastated the cultural landscape of Scotland in a way that did not happen in other areas of Britain"

The Acts of Enclosure had a similar effect in England, where an entire people were dispossessed of the common wealth that was the land. This was at least responsible for the death of a culture as ancient and valuable as any other culture on our islands. As usual, toffs and businessmen were behind it.

C'mon Scotland. Shake off the Norman Yoke that has blighted our island for a millennia.

Diggers' Song

You noble Diggers all, stand up now, stand up now,
You noble Diggers all, stand up now,
The waste land to maintain, seeing Cavaliers by name
Your digging do distain and your persons all defame
Stand up now, Diggers all.

Your houses they pull down, stand up now, stand up now,
Your houses they pull down, stand up now.
Your houses they pull down to fright poor men in town,
But the gentry must come down and the poor shall wear the crown.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

With spades and hoes and ploughs, stand up now, stand up now,
With spades and hoes and ploughs, stand up now.
Your freedom to uphold, seeing Cavaliers are bold
To kill you if they could and rights from you withhold.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

Their self-will is their law, stand up now, stand up now,
Their self-will is their law, stand up now.
Since tyranny came in they count it now no sin
To make a gaol a gin and to serve poor men therein.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

The gentry are all round, stand up now, stand up now,
The gentry are all round, stand up now.
The gentry are all round, on each side they are found,
Their wisdom's so profound to cheat us of the ground.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

The lawyers they conjoin, stand up now, stand up now,
The lawyers they conjoin, stand up now,
To arrest you they advise, such fury they devise,
But the devil in them lies, and hath blinded both their eyes.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

The clergy they come in, stand up now, stand up now,
The clergy they come in, stand up now.
The clergy they come in and say it is a sin
That we should now begin our freedom for to win.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

'Gainst lawyers and 'gainst priests, stand up now, stand up now,
'Gainst lawyers and 'gainst Priests, stand up now.
For tyrants are they both even flat against their oath,
To grant us they are loath free meat and drink and cloth.
Stand up now, Diggers all.

The club is all their law, stand up now, stand up now,
The club is all their law, stand up now.
The club is all their law to keep poor folk in awe,
Buth they no vision saw to maintain such a law.
Glory now, Diggers all.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 06:32 AM

the leader of the no campaign is the nephew of the duke of westminster, the duke of westminster like the queen owns huge parts of scotland,.
here is some information about the highland clearances,
was this how the duke of w got his land
The Highland Clearances (Scottish Gaelic: Fuadach nan Gàidheal, the "expulsion of the Gael") was the forced displacement during the 18th and 19th centuries of a significant number of people from traditional land tenancies in the Scottish Highlands, where they had practised small-scale agriculture. It resulted from enclosures of common lands and a change from farming to sheep raising, an agricultural revolution largely carried out by hereditary aristocratic landowners. A Highland Clearance has been defined as "an enforced simultaneous eviction of all families living in a given area such as an entire glen".[1]

The clearances are particularly notorious as a result of the brutality of many evictions at short notice (year-by-year tenants had almost no protection under Scots law), and the abruptness of the change from the traditional clan system, in which reciprocal obligations between the population and their leaders were well-recognized. The cumulative effect of the Clearances devastated the cultural landscape of Scotland in a way that did not happen in other areas of Britain; the effect of the Clearances was to destroy much of the Gaelic culture.[2]

The Clearances resulted in significant emigration of Highlanders to the sea coast, the Scottish Lowlands, and further afield to North America and Australasia. In the early 21st century, more descendants of Highlanders are found in these diaspora destinations than in Scotland.[3]

The Clearances were a complex series of events occurring over a period of more than a hundred years


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 06:17 AM

There were times, just a few decades ago, when national independence really meant national independence. These times are gone, at least for societies that do not want or have to live like North Koreans.

This means that from every change in world affairs, there will be a group of people to profit, and another group to lose, rarely identical to all citizens of particular countries, or to all members of an ethnic or religious group. Propagandists often try to persuade people that what is good for the nation is good for the citizens.

Selfish behaviour by "independent" governments is sometimes successful, but always threatened by sanctions. This includes Swiss bankers and Russian oligarchs. International cooperation, as close as possible, should be the best bet in the long run.

There are some areas of politics where regional autonomy is advantageous, for example, which folk songs should be sung in schools.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:07 AM

Being a Northerner I never think of Scotland as a different country. All the Scots I know live in England, and all my friends living in Scotland are English. If I want to feel culturally cosmopolitan in a truly European sense, I go to Edinburgh.

Between Scottish independence and UKIP, I'm beginning to feel like stranger in the land where I was born.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM

It'll be a disaster for England. The CON-servatives lose 1 MP, "New" Labour loses 40.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 04:31 AM

True, The UK would be better off without their drain on resources.

However, I keep trying to argue that it is folly to have a referendum when not a single set of "this is what it will look like" scenarios has been put forward for voters to consider.

The whole thing seems to be a combination of ugly nationalism and giving the present UK government a bloody nose.

Instead of saying where the money and trade will be coming from, the SNP just prattle on about promises they can't make regarding subjects not in their gift to promise.

If an independent Scotland can make a better Scotland without making a worse UK, brilliant.

But nobody has explained how that might work..

If I thought the majority of people living in Scotland believed promises from politicians when asking for their vote, I'd set up a shop in Edinburgh selling snake oil and long weights.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 04:14 AM

The SNP (Scottish National Party) which is leading the campaign for independence, has stated categorically that an independent Scotland will not be willing to have nuclear weapons on its soil or in its waters, and that the UK nuclear submarines will not be allowed to be based at Faslane.

I would like the Scots to have whatever the majority wish for - if that's independence from the United Kingdom, so be it.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 02:48 AM

Being English I am against it, if I was Scottish and lived there, I would probably be in favour.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 01:18 AM

That submarine base employs a lot of people, who are feeling a bit insecure at the moment. Britain has said they won't leave their nukes in a foreign country.

Can it be said that the Scots feel as strongly about this as the Irish do/did?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:46 PM

The referendum on 18 September.

Echo Bill D.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 08:10 PM

I saw some debate in the Scottish parliament recently. Some simply doubt that the economy is strong enough to go it alone. Some feel that independence is worth any temporary problems.
I just wish them well...


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 07:56 PM

We're beginning to hear a few stories about that over on this side of the pond. This morning the news discussed that deep water submarine base. The U.S. has bases all over the place and accords with nations to do so, so with that model in mind, is this a huge issue? Or do Scots in general want to get rid of it?

SRS


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Subject: BS: scottish independence
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM

do people think it is a good or bad thing


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