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BS: scottish independence

Musket 14 Sep 14 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Sol 14 Sep 14 - 06:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM
selby 14 Sep 14 - 05:06 AM
Musket 14 Sep 14 - 04:16 AM
LadyJean 13 Sep 14 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Scabby Douglas 13 Sep 14 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 13 Sep 14 - 07:49 PM
Musket 13 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 14 - 05:55 PM
Musket 13 Sep 14 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,h 13 Sep 14 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Over the bar 13 Sep 14 - 04:19 PM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 14 - 09:37 AM
Musket 13 Sep 14 - 06:23 AM
Howard Jones 13 Sep 14 - 06:14 AM
JHW 13 Sep 14 - 04:48 AM
Musket 13 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM
GUEST 13 Sep 14 - 02:46 AM
Musket 13 Sep 14 - 02:33 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 12 Sep 14 - 03:19 PM
Jack Campin 12 Sep 14 - 02:25 PM
akenaton 12 Sep 14 - 02:20 PM
Gutcher 12 Sep 14 - 12:42 PM
Musket 12 Sep 14 - 11:52 AM
Rumncoke 12 Sep 14 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM
Ed T 12 Sep 14 - 09:17 AM
Scabby Douglas 12 Sep 14 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Grishka 12 Sep 14 - 07:57 AM
Stu 12 Sep 14 - 06:55 AM
Howard Jones 12 Sep 14 - 06:51 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 14 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,Rahere 12 Sep 14 - 03:58 AM
Musket 12 Sep 14 - 02:53 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 14 - 02:26 AM
Ed T 11 Sep 14 - 07:51 PM
michaelr 11 Sep 14 - 07:33 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 14 - 06:21 PM
Ed T 11 Sep 14 - 05:13 PM
Musket 11 Sep 14 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,weerover 11 Sep 14 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,DMcG 11 Sep 14 - 02:44 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 14 - 01:56 PM
DMcG 11 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM
Ed T 11 Sep 14 - 01:31 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 14 - 01:02 PM
Musket 11 Sep 14 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 11 Sep 14 - 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:28 AM

Whereas a smaller Scotland with less oil assets than many third world countries and uncertainty as to currency and banks could make a better go of it?

The devolution Max would be the best solution as nationalism is just another word for bigotry whereas pragmatism might just put food on the table. Cameron refused to offer that though as he felt he could keep the union. The third way would have been best all round and would have got a resounding majority.

You can't blame the blue rinse brigade Al. Labour offers them fuck all in the same way Conservative don't understand an idealised "Oop North."


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:36 AM

That's more or less spot on, Al.
Tony Blair made Labour 'Tory light' leaving Scotland with no choice but turn to the SNP


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM

ladyjean has a point. the governance of Britain has always been a bloody mess.

Scottish independence got its biggest push by the Thatcher government   - so many callous decisions. but it didn't stop there, and that's why if they're wise Scotland will take over their own affairs -whatever the immediate problems. the tory government has all its support in the south east and most of the marginal seats are there - so that's labour fucked - and there lies the problem Musket.

sadly i can't agree with you. whether independence is the answer - i don't know. but it will be a reaction born out of the realisation of many Scottish people of how desperate the situation is.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:06 AM

Why does Mr Salmond never give robust replies to the issues being raised. Surely he cannot continue to kid people that it is all a plot and personal against Scotland. There is also the issue of Scotish Elections does he think that the SNP is elected for life or is that something that will be made law if the Yes vote win. My Father used to say when elections came and the Party he wanted to win lost "empty heads voted them in but empty stomachs will vote them out"seems to me to be relevant at this point. We where in Edinburgh last year to witness a young man in a kilt with the flag painted on his face shouting at someone you can take my country but you cannot take my soul methinks to many of them have been watching a Hollywood film made and starring a Australian actor and have lost the plot. All the north has suffered while the south has flourished I suspect the south west and wales will say the same a lot of young people from these areas with degrees can only get work in London investment in the north is nil but Scotland gets more titbits from the London table than the north does. My only hope is that whatever happens the Scots People will be happy with the Majority want as there is no going back in four years time this is for life and their children's children
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 04:16 AM

Are you sure about that LadyJean?

You see "the British " describes 68 million people, 10% of whom are in Scotland and the majority of the rest have little in common with the Home Counties as you put it. Even a huge number of those who live there.

Sweeping condemnation of people who don't fit your particular bill is neither helpful nor accurate.

Leave that nonsense to Salmond and his personal mission to screw up a country that is trying to recover from err.. following idealistic dreams of low intelligence politicians.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 08:08 PM

One of the things I find really annoying about the British is that they seem to have decided that English men and women from the home counties are the only people who matter and everyone else is a joke. I'm not surprised a few of the everyone else are getting fed up.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 07:55 PM

I was at the Glasgow Proms In The Park concert. None of the Pomp and Circumstance section was shown on the big screens on Glasgow Green. The BBC learned a fair few years ago not to cut to Glasgow (or any place in Scotland for any of "Jerusalem". Similarly, I think "Rule Britannia" could have been tricky....

The stuff we got instead was very enjoyable....


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 07:49 PM

"Has the potential new interim governing body (or the "yes, lets separate" proponents) put forward a strategy to deal with the potential economic impact of starting a new government and economy - while starting out with a debt and likely significant deficit?"

It would seem that they have not!

There is online an analysis of Scotland's options absent Salmond's claimed currency union with rUK.

It suggests, based on the countries with population and GDP closest to Scotland, that the best case scenario is that Scotland would have to float a debt burden of more than 50% of GDP to support its independent currency alone, while that would increase significantly if start up costs were factored in.

The Scots economy would of necessity have to borrow massively, or be in a position where a run on its currency would mean bankruptcy.

And of course, if Salmond's plan to hold Scotland's share of UK debt to ransom in an attempt to force currency union ends in repudiation of the debt, this will be regarded worldwide as defaulting on commitment.

What price borrowing then?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM

I once saw a wonderful cartoon of the pied piper playing his flute, being faithfully followed around by old bastards in orange sashes...


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:55 PM

pity we've lost the Ian Paisley thread on the very day the orangemen are parading through Edinburgh.....


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:37 PM

Just watching Last Night of the Proms... In fact, got a few friends round for it and having a cracking good night.

Cameras cut to those watching and listening on big screens in Belfast and Swansea. Nothing in Och Aye the Noo Land though.

Are you really going to swop Pomp & Circumstance and Jerusalem for Donald Where's Your Troosers?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,h
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:32 PM

In all wars the politicans should be forced to take to the front line with their families in close support---how many illegal wars would we have then Mr Blair? and you too Mr Cameron, who has, today, stated that he cannot rule out going to war in Syria/Iraq.
Is it little wonder thinking people wish to be quit of a regime which has opened up such a can of worms with their illegal acts.
At least a YES vote would give us the opportunity to oppose, with more chance of success, such people. It is of course the people who are sovereign in Scotland unlike England where the Crown stll reigns supreme backing the landed/wealth interest to the hilt.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Over the bar
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:19 PM

WHat is ENland going to do about the cannon fodder?, if SCotland says yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 09:37 AM

Scotland already runs 90% of its own affairs. What is so important about the remaining few matters which aren't already devolved?

Taxation, military spending, social security, foreign policy. I'd say that was a bit more than 10%.

The Bedroom Tax alone shows what the Cameron/Clegg/Farage/Miliband clique want to do to Scotland if they get the chance.

Question for the NO-sayers. Would you advocate abolishing the UK Parliament and having everything it currently decides put in the hands of the EU? If not, what is the difference?

The only relevant difference I can see that the UK government is likely to be run on behalf of the US by a bunch of loony overprivileged right-wing sectarians for the foreseeable future, so it's obvious why a loony right-wing pro-American xenophobe would see a difference. For the rest of us it's equally obvious that having no vote at all and having everything decided by a colonial administration in Paris or Berlin would be an improvement on the status quo.

The most convincing piece of propaganda I've seen from the YES side is a sticker saying "Vote Yes and end Tory rule forever". There'll be a lot of folks the other side of the border wishing they had a way to sign up to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:23 AM

Willing to live with it?

Fine if it didn't affect you. But already, even before any outcome, the markets are down, investors are looking elsewhere and the largest single source of UK GDP is very concerned that this lunacy might just go ahead. Anyone booking their holidays for next year abroad will find prices have gone up over the last two weeks as the pound loses value (and influence.). Anyone living on state benefits will soon learn where the treasury will look to make the required savings..

Don't worry. The government can always cut pensions, cut benefits and let inflation creep up to make up the deficit. (Tory led government, remember?)

It's alright shouting eat the rich and investors can go to hell but don't scratch your head too much when the government (both North and South) cannot afford social infrastructure at the level people are accustomed to.

Now some home truths are at last materialising, we can see that this affects The UK, not just the 10% voting in it. If Salmond seriously thinks the period of negotiation means him getting half what he promises, the other 90% will have to be asked if they are willing to have their lives affected so. You could fund The NHS for ten years with what the price of rearranging absolutely everything from currency to assets will cost.

Ed Milliband got it right for once when he said no UK minister can negotiate away the legitimate interest of the people in favour of foreign interest. It isn't a vote to affect you for the next four years, it is a once only deal and only delivers uncertainty.

Meanwhile, Salmond is quietly tying the SNP day to day policies into the vote so he can say that whoever governs Scotland, some SNP policies are enshrined in constitutional law.

Fucking scary if you ask me. Not to mention undemocratic.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:14 AM

It appears to me that this is principally about mational pride and a sense of nationhood, both of which the Scots already have in spades. In terms of government, they already control most matters, including the NHS which Salmond claims is under such threat from Westminster. The impression is being given that this is simply a re-badging exercise, with nothing much changing except Scotland's legal status, everything else will be business as usual. However that's not true. Separation will tear down all the structures which currently underpin Scottish prosperity. They will have to be built up from scratch, and more importantly paid for.

Scotland will inevitably remain economically tied to its larger neighbour, but will have lost all influence over it. If it succeeds in joining the EU (still a big if) it will cede much control to Brussels. Is that independence?

I understand the emotional case. I describe myself as 'British' but I feel 'English', and I understand why Scots have such a sense of their own identity. However whenever I visit Scotland I am left in no doubt of that. Would independence increase that sense of identity?

Scotland already runs 90% of its own affairs. What is so important about the remaining few matters which aren't already devolved? Could an independent Scottish government actually deliver on these? It strikes me odd that a supposedly socialist country doesn't understand that 'unity is strength'.

It's an emotional argument against a logical one, so they're never going to come together. The 'Yes' responses to the logical claims are either 'we don't believe you' or 'we don't care'. Perhaps that's enough to build a new state with. If the vote is "Yes", I sincerely hope it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: JHW
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:48 AM

I'm all for letting the Scots vote how they wish.
No pressure, no scares, no this will or won't happen or work. Just let them decide and live with it.
And no wingeing or 'told you so' after, whichever way it goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM

NATO says fine. But you keep the strategically placed nuclear subs.

I can understand the idea of simple folk who like to blame everybody else for their own failures seeing that from their perspective, you may as well vote yes because the only way is up when you are at the bottom. But the same people don't have any concept of how far from the bottom they really are.

You just have to see Mudcat's resident homophobe in bed, as it were , with the political champion of gay rights to see how surreal the yes camp are in their reasoning. They push the ideals of one particular party and say this is what independence would look like? Independent from what?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:46 AM

Watching Jim Sillers on Sky News sums up the Scottish error: anyone who disagrees with him, even the interviewer, is rude and ill-mannered. He is entirely egotistical and thinks the sun shines out of his arsehole. When his time ran out, he was sarcastic, thinking he had a divine right to spout nonsense until the cows came home. He utterly failed to realise that it's a two-way street, that a company has as much right to say no, I won't deal with you, as he has to choose to walk away himself.

It's the Scotish problem writ small. Scotland doesn't have the couraage to issue its own currency, so tells England it wants to keep on sponging off it despite being told by the Chancellor and Governor of the Bank, NO. It tells the EU it is going to continue being a member, when it isn't and doesn't qualify because it isn't prepared to take on the Euro/ It tells NATO the same, when it doesn't have ther income to qualify.

Where's the money going to come from when all the business leaves? Wake up and smell the coffee, once again you're in the hands of another Sir William Paterson, an ill-advised fool leading the Scottish nation over the edge of the cliff in the Darien Scheme, all promises and no effective ways of making them happen.

With no business, where's all the taxes, the money you need to have coming in to be able to spend it on the pensions for starters, going to come from? Or the wages, or - well, the list is long. Once again, you've fallen into the hands of insane mountebanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:33 AM

It does seem a pity that it takes till now for the consequences of following a nationalistic dream to be hammered home.

One lesson for all here is that interdependence in commerce, banking and ability to carry out social programmes means there is no independent western state, not even USA.

Independence seems to be another word for losing influence in what affects you most. Whereas union is another word for risk pool.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:19 PM

Unfortunately, the chances are that you don't own the mineral rights underneath your house, so if consent is needed to frack it probably won't be you who gives it.

Also a Scottish government dependent on oil revenues isn't going to stand in the way of something that will bring in cash. Whatever politicians may say now, they will have to face harsh reality once in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:25 PM

The NO supporters who've been most in the news in the last few days:

Fred the Shred's bank
The company that brought you Deepwater Horizon
20,000 (they hope) Orange marchers

These are the people you want running a country?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:20 PM

Yes Gutcher...agree 100%.

This is turning in to a re-run of the last referendum in 1979, all the lies, misinformation and threats are coming out as polling nears.

Even the language is similar, and the false promises.....more powers my arse, the Westminster Parties are nowhere near agreement on which powers are to be falsely promised.

Make no mistake this is developing into a battle between the "have nots" and the "we're holding on to what we've got" factions

Right from the start, the NOs have had no vision for a better Scotland, just unremittingly.....more of the same
We simply must get our young people back into meaningful employment, even if jobs have to be created and subsidised by the bonus of oil revenues.....there are thousands of homes required, hundreds of projects which need to be started and the young folk, during this campaign have shown willingness to be politically involved...they have taken inspiration from the chance to renew their "ain country."
I was personally inspired years ago by Communist ideals.
I am humbled to see again a spirit I once thought dead.

A life on benefits will not do and our youth will, after the vote, never accept it.

The selfish well off will not triumph in the long term even if they steal another referendum, the project of building a new different kind of society could start right here.....Vote Aye! The way is clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Gutcher
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:42 PM

RE Mr Camerons meetings with latge companies---Asda, John Lewis etc. in an effort to have them pursue the No campaigns "project fear" [ the No campaigns self given title] Most of these companies work on a profit margin of 8 to 9% so it is little wonder that their market share has been falling steadily quarter by quarter following the vast expansion of at least two Continental supermarkets, who I understand sell at a profit margin of 2%, this is the problem these businesses should be addressing not the threat of increased prices as their customers will continue to desert them in ever increasing numbers no matter what the outcome of the vote on 18th. September.

Anent self interest.
Sir Ian Woods sudden reversal of his recently published agreement with the oil experts estimated figures of the amount of oil reserves----would this much published change have anything to do with his recent aquisition of Fracking rights/technology from America.
His children and grandchildren certainly stand to lose billions in the event of a Yes vote and if a Scottish Parliament resinds the law at present being pushed through Westminster to allow fracking to take place under YOUR HOUSE WITHOUT YOUR AGREEMENT


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 11:52 AM

But why does an independent Scotland mean no "bedroom tax"?

It isn't that SNP are cynically confusing independence with the aspirational policies of their particular party, it's that many people fall for it that gets me.

When Salmond says no this, free that, better the other, he also speaks of negotiating terms with The UK. Rather convenient then to say The UK played hardball so we can't afford this that and tue other. And it's all the fault of Westminster, not the err.. Independent Scotland.

In reply to the NHS point earlier, I can confirm that NHS is based on central funding on a per capita basis, adjusted for local need. Scotland has been funded and indeed governed by and for Scotland from the outset. Health legislation is Scottish in origin and whilst the basic concept is similar, the rationale has always been how Scotland has organised it. The money goes straight to Scotland. The Dept of Health only doles it out to England. Wales and NI agree funding via their assemblies, hence having their own health ministers too.

In fact, with rural access to services meaning some NHS services being provided in rural areas where for most of England they would be more centralised, and the high levels of health inequalities and co morbidity in many urban areas, Scotland as a whole receives more NHS funding than England, per person, just. However, Scotland also sees slightly less of that spent on direct clinical costs, having to provide some expensive services to low population numbers.

Put simply, improving NHS services in any part of The UK is not easily delivered by political promise, because nowhere in The UK has all the specialist staff they need, as a combination of poor long term training planning and tightening of immigration and work visas means we are all suffering from staff shortages, especially consultants. Hence politicians can promise seven day hospitals all they wish, and The NHS agrees with the idea for many services, but where you are going to get 40% more specialists from when we can't fill existing posts is beyond me...

A thought. An independent Scotland could have a more relaxed approach to immigration and fill more doctor posts? Lots of ifs there, but they could steal a competitive edge, assuming they could afford it.

Meanwhile, Mrs Musket, a fellow of The Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh got a letter the other day saying they have opened an office in Birmingham...


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Rumncoke
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:39 AM

The bedroom tax is not exactly a tax but the reduction in housing benefit which results if a claimant is living in a property where there are more bedrooms than are thought necessary.

Unfortunately this has resulted in situation such as a disabled person living in a rented flat carefully adapted for their requirements with storage for their mobility scooter etc. is unable to afford to go on living there when a child leaves home to go to university.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM

IRISH COMMENT ON SCOTS INDEPENDANCE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 09:17 AM

""To transform passion and anger into institutional and finally political change requires the founding of institutions, of political parties, of news organizations, of local and neighborhood associations, of economic clubs and discussion groups that think about the interests of the nation, not of a single group or faction.""

IMO, the real litmus test of successful political change is in what happens after a vote occurs. I suspect, like with many change movements, there are many different interests, with different expectations, joined together now- hoping for a nation building change. If a successful "yes" vote occurs, divisions will likely begin, with each group expecting their interest and vision to be the new focus and priority.

Unfortunately, as reality comes into play, politicians normally face similar challenges and issues (some not within their control)- and quite often, over the longer term, they tend to resemble the political system and politicans they have replaced.

I recall a statement from a local politician, who few likely know here:"" I was elected mainly because I was not another politician, and eventually I will be replaced by a politician, who will likely be elected because he is not me""


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:41 AM

@Rahere...
I was maybe a bit too elliptical when I said:"Rahere, Don't know where you got those numbers from ..."

What I meant to ask was : Where the hell did you get those figures from? Latest... from where?

All the best,


Steven


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 07:57 AM

1: "governments we didn't vote for"
If this indeed is a reason for splitting a political entity then stand by for further splits
An important point. There are two unquestionable notions of "we": a) my family, b) mankind. Anything else is an alliance for a purpose, and thus subject to abuse by rhetorically talented leaders.

Democracy can never be perfect, but can always become better. Units of democracy between family and mankind need a clear definition and well-tailored responsibilities. It turns our that the roles of ethnicity and historical units are grossly overestimated nowadays. (At other times and places, religion and dynasties were and are considered paramount - equally inadequately.) Therefore, we - mankind - must demand a new political system that takes account of that.

It would be unreasonable to hope that those currently in power collectively abandon their privileges by their own will. Ordinary people must demand it, after thorough discussion. The referendum, however the outcome, may bring about a chance to think about new constitutions, not just oil and currencies and other things "we" may have.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:55 AM

For crying out loud Scotland, don't balls this up. If you vote no you'll only have yourself to blame, no shifting it down south.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:51 AM

Whilst the banks' move south would be legal rather than physical, it is more than symbolic. The banks want to be assured that they will be protected by the Bank of England and will work within a recognised regulatory framework. After independence, if they remain they would have to hold considerably higher cash reserves, as they could not rely on the Scottish government to bail them out. There are also uncertainties over tax.

They are also anticipating a flight of capital south of the border as Scots take steps to safeguard their savings and pensions.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:37 AM

Thought that this from Matt in todays Telegraph was hilarious:

"The Flying Scotsman"


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:58 AM

GUEST 11 Sep 14 - 09:25 AM
That's because
1. Your figures are not up to date: I used the latest figures. But then again, no figures can be relied on when there's no coherent State financing plan - it nearly sank Belgium when they were at this stage, only saved by someone who had the cash, owing 30% of the country, to pay the first month's bills, which Scotland lacks.
2. Many soldiers are still overseas.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:53 AM

Salmond seems to be shouting about taking legal action against the treasury. A bit desperate, but there again, so is the roadshow him and his No.2 are embarking on, reiterating the SNP manifesto as being the benefit of an independent Scotland...

Meanwhile back at the ranch.. The no vote seems to be getting stronger in the polls and The Scotsman newspaper is saying in its editorials that nobody has made a case for an independent Scotland and that for all its bluster, the SNP led parliament hasn't even used the tax raising powers it has been given, preferring austerity you can blame on others.

Quite..


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:26 AM

""Knowns": governments we didn't vote for; Trident; foodbanks; bedroom tax; erosion of the NHS; governments hell-bent on getting everyone (even those in dire need) off benefits; a mindset of still being one of the world's super powers; Boris Johnson; UKIP..." - Guest weerover

1: "governments we didn't vote for"
If this indeed is a reason for splitting a political entity then stand by for further splits in your newly independent Scotland - After all you are setting the precedent. In your newly independent Scotland the political shade of every Government that will be elected will decided by those living in the Dundee-Edinburgh-Glasgow belt - predominantly "socialist" - those in Shetland, Orkney, the Western Isles, the North East, Highlands and the Borders - will never get the governments they vote for - it is called democracy the will of the people - all the people - live with it.

2: "Trident"
The majority of people in Scotland see the need for the country (The UK) having a nuclear deterrent and actually support the replacement of Trident according to polls on the subject. The banishing of WMD from Scotland is an SNP matter not a Scottish one.

3: "foodbanks"
These exist in one form or another in practically every country in the world. The Scottish Parliament since 1999 has had the the power to raise taxes in Scotland by 3% - now would the money that could have been raised using that measure gone anyway towards alleviating the problem? If it would then can you explain why the predominantly socialist governments that have been in power continuously in Scotland since 1999 have not done this? And once independent what measures has Jowly suggested to see the end of "foodbanks" in Scotland?

4: "Bedroom Tax"
Ah this one is my favourite - Tell me "weerover" how much bedroom tax do you pay? - Myself I have spare bedrooms yet I pay nothing - care to tell us how that comes about if there is such a thing as a "Bedroom Tax"?

5: "erosion of the NHS"
What erosion of the NHS? None as far as I can see, although Musket would be able to supply information on this point in greater detail. The NHS is funded in Scotland as in the rest of the UK by money from central Government. They are given a budget which they are free to spend as they see fit to provide the service and care required. The Scottish Government has been in total control of the NHS in Scotland since 1999 and the NHS in Scotland has been independent of the NHS in the rest of the UK since it was formed.

6: "governments hell-bent on getting everyone (even those in dire need) off benefits"
Hysterical, emotive, claptrap. Every Government in the world today seeks to reduce costs right across the board - Vote YES on the 18th September 2014 and the first Government of an independent Scotland on the 24th March 2016 will do everything in its power to reduce the amount it spends on benefits - If you think or believe anything different from that then you must be deluded - But as you have swallowed all Jowly & Co's BS you probably are deluded anyway.

7: "a mindset of still being one of the world's super powers"
The UK is a permanent member of the Security Council of the United Nations, It is the keystone of the second largest international organisation in the world after the United Nations, it has the sixth largest economy on the planet, its trade is world-wide - Nothing to do with "mindset" weerover - those are FACTS

8: "Boris Johnson"
Well unlike Alex Salmond or John Swinney, as far as I am aware Boris Johnson has never deliberately and knowingly told the electorate of London blatant lies to fool and mislead them.

9: UKIP
Just couldn't believe that you included this one.

Let me see now UKIP a separatist party anxious to take the country they care about out of what they perceive as being a damaging Union that they believe acts in a way that is counter to the best interests of that country and its people.

Now tell us what the SNP and the YES campaign are all about weerover?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 07:51 PM

Is your link the same link material that I posted earlier today, Michaelr?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 07:33 PM

Interesting analysis from one of the US' foremost economists here.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 06:21 PM

I very much doubt that a Scottish Labour Party would support the retention of weapons of mass destruction(Trident), or any of the other "knowns" that wee rover has mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 05:13 PM

What is a bedroom tax?


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 05:06 PM

Trident?

What has that to do with an independent Scotland ?

Sounds like the manifesto of a political party to me? If Labour get in at a first Scottish election, they have said they support keeping it.

So... Other than listing English parties and personalities, please say what makes an independent Scotland different?

If you cannot differentiate between a concept of nationhood and the aims of one particular political party, do democracy a favour and don't bother voting in a referendum you clearly don't understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 03:18 PM

"Knowns": governments we didn't vote for; Trident; foodbanks; bedroom tax; erosion of the NHS; governments hell-bent on getting everyone (even those in dire need) off benefits; a mindset of still being one of the world's super powers; Boris Johnson; UKIP...


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 02:44 PM

It's not my vote so I don't feel I should argue for either side. I apologise if my phrasing misled anyone


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:56 PM

I don't see how your perfectly proper argument makes the NO side right DMcG.

The No's could win by a few votes from The Orange Order who have a sectarian agenda.....that would be worse than a pair o' silly Scotsmen? :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM


DMcG....what you say could well be true, but if we are to have a "democratic" voting system that is always a possibility.


I agree, and certainly going 60/40 split wouldn't really help, even ignoring the problems. But on this point the 'no' campaign is right, even if you disagree on everything else they say: it isn't like a normal election. If the same situation arises in a vote for Westminster, whoever was elected would be supported by more or less half the people, so a 'random choice' is not so unreasonable, and it is in any case eventually reversible. Here, whoever wins it is unlikely to be reversible for a hundred years or so.

Don't expect me to come up with an answer - I'm not sure there is one. (JS Mill had some ideas, but I doubt they could ever have been applied ...)


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:31 PM

Who says there is a common language in the UK of today?
:)


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM

Jim Knowledge....you're wan eh of the things aboot England that ah'll really miss! :0)

Bring yer taxi uptae Glesca park it outside the SSEC an' get up on the stage......ye wid make yer fortune.......Thanks fur aw the laughs.


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:02 PM

DMcG....what you say could well be true, but if we are to have a "democratic" voting system that is always a possibility.
The alternative would be perhaps a sixty/forty vote in favour of the status quo, but just think of the problems that would cause.

The whole issue could have been solved to your satisfaction, had Cameron allowed Devo-Max on the ballot paper, a good majority could well have accepted that, but only when it became clear that he could lose the YES/NO vote, did he bring forward the promise of increased powers as a bribe.

I vote in the 1970s referendum, and the same promises and divisive language(ripping Scotland out of the UK etc), were used.

The country voted NO and nothing materialised in the way of new powers, what we did get was eighteen years of Mrs Thatcher and plenty of unemployment.

Don't believe the lies of "Team Westminster", if we vote NO we will be punished, if we vote AYE we can hold our heads high.

Isn't it lovely to have ones own personal stalker.....:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 12:56 PM

The Catalan will do nothing.

Mainly because Spain has said that whilst it will not interfere in a referendum in another country and is neutral on the aspirations of the UK residents in the Scottish counties, it will however protect its interest regarding setting a precedent for EU entry of breakaways from existing EU states.

Although of course , Salmond reckons that with a mandate from Scottish voters, he can dictate to foreign leaders and for some reason, they have to listen! (See his comments re the pound.)


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Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 12:55 PM

I `ad that Rab MacTavish in my cab yesterday. I picked `im up outside "The Flying Scotsman" pub near `olborn. `e was waving a bloody great saltire on a stick and singing "I Belong to Glasgie".
I said, "You O.K. Jimmy? Where to then?"
`e said, "Kings Cross station please Jim. I gottie get `ame tae vote in the referendum and I gottie take driving lessons as soon as poss."
I said, "gawd `elp us Rab. With your track record on the juice you`ll be death on wheels."
`e said, "Dinna fass yesel aboot that Jim. I`ll be a different mon. Alec says when we get independence we`ll all get a BMW and I cannie miss oot on that!!"

Whaddam I Like???


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