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BS: Caliphate

Stu 04 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM
akenaton 04 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM
Musket 04 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM
LadyJean 04 Jul 14 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,# 04 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM
GUEST,Mrr 03 Jul 14 - 08:29 PM
Ed T 03 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM
bobad 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 04:43 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 03:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM
pdq 03 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 14 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM
beardedbruce 03 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM
Musket 03 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,# 03 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM
Teribus 03 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM
akenaton 03 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 AM
bobad 02 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM

"I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon."

There's a lot to be said for atheists attending church. I don't go but can see the attraction, I like the ritual (which I find comforting in its consistency) and who can resist a good sing-song? The fact I don't believe a word of it is irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

In response to Lady Jean, I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon.
He is an intelligent if somewhat "ecclesiastical" man......I have never heard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions.

In fact, I have never heard or read anything of that nature from practicing Christians, all of whom are extremely tolerant, even of my well known atheism.

I have always tried to understand why some folks feel the need for spiritual support, and have learned a lot in the process, Christians on the whole, try to follow the teachings of Jesus.....they are good tolerant people.
Islamists are crazy dangerous fanatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Over thirteen thousand posts.
Not very helpful.

Please produce just ONE example of my "form."
Make it the very WORST example you can think of.

Will you?
OF COURSE NOT!

How could you when there are NONE!
It is all just more Musket made-up shit.

You are a hopeless liar Musket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Me too (if not provoked otherwise)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Fine, Jim; I have no wish to be prescriptive. It has become a hobby of yours, and far be it from me...

I think I shall probably just stop following this particular sequence...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:45 AM

I keep telling you. Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Quite simple really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

Will you give an example of my "form?"
Of course not!
You can't.
Just more made-up Musket shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM

And to occasionally defend yourself from reason...

Sorry Keith, you have form and it isn't just Jim either.

Do you also defend "we" from the "left"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.

I do not, except to defend myself from your wild accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith"
Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.
That he is the extremist he is is fine by me - there are lots of extremists in the world - thankfully they don't saturate the threads after thread of this forum with their extremism with a last-man-standing attitude until they crash to the ground in flames.
Nor do they use this forum as a competition in order to "win" something, or to declare themselves "infallible" and those who disagree "muppets"
Nor do they try to run this forum as if they owned it, telling the rest of us what is and what is nor relevant, or what right we have to comment on subjects because we "no longer live here", or we are "anti-British because we criticise her policies and politicians..... or all the other unpleasant tricks used to divert from intelligent discussion
I really am not interested in Keith's politics - I'm not sure what they are and I don't think he is fully - they are certainly not backed up with any fore-knowledge, so they seem not to inspire enough interest for him to have made any efforts read up on the subjects he declares himself "infallible" on.   
The vast majority of contributors here take part out of a genuine interest in the subjects - to Keith, it is a matter of "I win - you lose" - which fucks it up for everybody else over and over again - go and count how many times he has said exactly that, or how many times he had dominated the thread with his postings, or has been the last poster.
I enjoy discussions like these - I don't get a lot of them here in the wild west.
They help me keep in touch with things and stimulate me to follow them up.
I have learned a great deal from participating in them - mainly from people I don't necessarily agree with - and would not like to see more threads naused up by Keith's attention-seeking and (often self-declared) ignorance on subjects he knows s.f.a. about, but which interest me and others.
Taking part in these discussions with Keith present is like trying to carry on a serious conversation, with a precocious, attention-seeking child in the same room.
Also in the spirit of rapprochement, sometime you give the impression of a proud parent whose child can do no wrong - we rally do need to 'Talk About Kevin' - sorry, should have said Keith.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:14 AM

Every religion has it's share of crazies. But they do not represent the majority of the faith.

I am a Christian. The Reverend Fred Phelps was also a Christian. (Allegedly) We didn't see eye to eye on much. Most Christians didn't see eye to eye with that jerk.

I knew a group of Iranian Muslims in college. They were very nice people, who dressed and behaved like the rest of us, except that they liked brighter colors, and they didn't drink alcohol. (Just very very very strong coffee.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM

The opening post:

"Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?"


The answer: No


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:29 PM

Oops that was me, again, as guest. And I was hoping to get people here to give an answer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM

"Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split."

Kinda reminds me of RC church believing that the Christian leadership should follow St. Peter through the Popes-cheating a later spilt and significant discord (even lots of bloodshed) with other Christians, who saw things differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

My friend, Tarek Fatah, expounds on what constitutes an "Islamic State":

http://tarekfatah.com/what-in-the-world-is-an-islamic-state/


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM

Guest, your question was answered days ago. I'll re-post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/opinion/the-caliphate-fantasy.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

So, do I have to start a new thread to get my question answered without all the brouhaha about who said what how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Otherwise, I warn you yet again -- You shall not go to the Ball...


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

Don't know about 'everyone'; but I surely wish Jim would drop it.

Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith with, not finding it, & having to fall back on this one yet again -- which, as you know, I think you got wrong from the off, but no point going into that again (I at least flatter myself that I know when a topic has served its turn & it might be the time to find a new one, or else shut the hell up).

Give it a rest, Jim. Seriously. You are not going to impress or convince anybody by boring them into a permanent coma...

Best

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:48 PM

Guest#, that would be phase 2, not the "end goal."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM

The more you wriggle and try to blame somebody else the more dishonest you appear - and the more fun this gets

Only you find this tedious old shit "fun" Jim.
Everyone else on Mudcat wants you to drop it.

I do now believe that culture caused the over-representation because all those well known and respected members of that culture said so.
They know more about it than us.

I think culture effects us all to some extent.
If you challenge that, what proportion will you accept Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:43 PM

In the spirit of the thread title and what it's s'posed to be about, I am wondering just how many of you people have contemplated ISIS and part of its end goal.

Here is the ISIS map as they view the future.

Any comments from anyone? Because what we are seeing is a blueprint for World War III.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:58 PM

"They all acknowledge the over-representation, ascribing it to the culture (NOT religion) of their community."
Who is talking about "over-representation" - stop changing the subject
Your claim was over all make Muslim Pakistanis - and you damn well kow this - that is what you claim to have been stated by others and that was an extreme example of extremism
That is what will return to bite your bum for the foreseeable future.
"Culture is "implanted" in all of us."
No it isn't, and certainly not to have it off with underage women
"but that is how Don put it to me."
So now it's Don's fault you made your claim
The more you wriggle and try to blame somebody else the more dishonest you appear - and the more fun this gets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

Your persistence in driving these threads into the ground with your Islamophobic rantings
Jim, I have NEVER posted an Islamophobic rant.

failing to produce a single example from anybody else
I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation, ascribing it to the culture (NOT religion) of their community.

Culture is "implanted" in all of us.
Not a word I would choose, but that is how Don put it to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

I have long supported the establishment of a free state for the Kurds called Kurdistan.

If it is going to thrive, it must have a port on the Mediterranean Sea.

That would require concessions from Turkey, which are unlikely.

Kurdistan would also need to get land now considered part of Iran, although a trade with Iraq for the Shiite-controiolled area in the southheast is a possibility.

A viable Kurdistan is unlikely with just a division of current Iraqi teritory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

"Levant" is used as a translation of part of the Arabic name, ISIL (ISIS); an old term for the eastern Mediterranean area now Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Jordan. This is not what is meant by the leader and self-proclaimed caliph, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

More elements of the rebels fighting the Syrian government seem to be falling to ISIL. Most of the villages along the Euphrates River are under ISIL control.
Associated press, July 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:17 AM

The claim to a caliphate by ISIL has little to do with the caliphate as an historical unit; it died with the sack of Baghdad and the removal of the caliphate to Cairo, where it became a tool of the Mamluk rulers.

ISIL claims to be the successor to the political and religious community established by the Prophet Muhammad. The ideal of a united church and state leadership is an old one, and desired by many Muslims.
With large areas in Syria and Iraq, ISIL has effectively eliminated the boundary between the two areas.

Muslim beliefs at present range from moderate to rigid. Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split. It is doubtful that the groups will get together, especially with the jihadist elements in ISIL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

Your persistence in driving these threads into the ground with your Islamophobic rantings would be more than enough, if it wasn't for your having summed it up so beautifully in one posting
When you are challenged about your statement, you have confirmed that it is still your belief, you have blamed somebody else for putting the idea into your head (failing to produce a single example from anybody else), now you appear to be claiming you only confirmed it was your opinion because you were quoting Don (whatever that particular piece of gibberish means!).
Whoever said it, it a racist statement, and anybody who says he "now believes it" is a racist.
To misquote my old mun (she of the world's oldest profession, according to Terry the Toy Trooper) - "if Jack Straw put his finger in the fire, would you do the same?"   
Anyway, despite the fact that it's always a pleasure talking to you, song annotation calls - only another 200 to go!!
"Misinterpretation" now - is it - that's a new one to add to the list!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

Historian Juan Cole looks at the history of caliphates, and their varying meaning over time.

Let us please call it the "so-called Islamic State," since it bears all the resemblance to mainstream Islam that Japan's Om Shinrikyo (which let sarin gas into the subway in 1995) bears to Buddhism.
... After Ali's assassination, the Umayyad kings ruled (661-750), and though some scholars have found that they claimed religious charisma, they were just Arab kings. A branch of the family of the Prophet tracing itself back to his uncle Abbas began making claims to rightful rule, however, and they were popular among the new converts from among the Persians in Iran, and in 750 they made a revolution against the Umayyads. They became the Abbasid caliphate, ruling until the Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258.
Following that defeat by the Mongols, the caliphate in its original form was pretty much dead. Cole writes that while many kings and rulers styled themselves as caliphs, they didn't have the religious authority that implied. Though the Ottoman Sultan declared himself Caliph in 1880, he was not always seen that way by the world's Muslims. While the Turkish state's abolishment of the caliphate claim in 1924 is generally seen as a great tragedy, it rests on revisionist history, in Cole's telling.

The end of the caliphate did not matter to most Muslims. You don't need a caliph to pray five times a day or fast Ramadan. In Egypt, Ali Abd al-Raziq, a court judge, argued in modernist fashion that no caliph is necessary. Some Egyptian clerics were uncomfortable with the idea, but they lost the argument. There was some jockeying to resurrect the caliphate in the mid-1920s, and the Egyptian king, Fuad I, threw his crown in the ring. But the fact is that none of the newly forming nation-states wanted a transnational authority like that, and no consensus could be reached, and the caliphate (such as it was, since I don't think most Muslims bought into Abdulhamid's project) lapsed again.
Small groups of cult-like fundamentalists ever after hoped for a restored caliphate, but it isn't something on the minds of 99% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims. Sunni Islam has come sociologically to resemble Protestant Christianity, lacking a formal center and largely organized on the basis of the nation-state.
Col. (Ret.) Pat Lang, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency's Middle East desk, is on the same page.

IMO, this declaration of the caliphate of Ibrahim is a terrible blunder for ISIS.   The Islamic world will unite in hostility against such ambitions and claims. Most people in these countries want to retain their local national ientities or at least to have states that may better reflect their ethnic identity. Even the Saudis, who have toyed with the notion of absulute authority given to their wahhabi faith, will recoil in horror from the evident threat presented by the idea of an umma ruled by the likes of these people.
To be sure, Brigadier FB Ali, a retired Pakistani officer and frequent contributor to Lang's blog, says there is cause for concern.

Undoubtedly, governments in Muslim countries will reject this declaration. However, this 'caliphate' may well appeal to the many Muslims all over the world who want Islam to govern their lives and the countries in which they live, but who reject their present governments as not being Islamic. Especially vulnerable to such ideas would be young men in the Muslim diaspora, many of whom feel this need more acutely than their brethren back home. ISIS can expect an increase in Muslim recruits from the West.
What lends substance to this declaration by ISIS is its capture of a large piece of territory in the Muslim heartland, something the other jihadi outfits cannot match.
Writing at the Long War Journal, Thomas Joscelyn points out that 9 major jihadi groups in Syria have already rejected Baghdadi's claim.

In a series of tweets in both English and Arabic, Abu Sulayman al Muhajir, a top sharia official in the Al Nusrah Front, sharply criticized the Islamic State's announcement. While using the hashtag #Khilafah_Proclaimed in his tweets, Abu Sulayman argued that the Islamic State's failure to consult jihadi leaders before making the announcement "is a clear breach of Islam."
"The situation has not changed at all here," Abu Sulayman said in one tweet, referring to Syria. "Only difference I see is there is a stronger 'Islamic' justification for them [the Islamic State] to kill Muslims." The Islamic State has long justified the killing of other rebel fighters and leaders by arguing that it is the only legitimate authority in Iraq and Syria.
Abu Sulayman, who is from Australia, served as a mediator during al Qaeda's early attempts to reconcile the ISIS with other jihadist groups in Syria. When those efforts failed, he became a vocal critic of the ISIS and is now a staunch opponent of the Islamic State.
Time will tell if Baghdadi's grab for power will allow him to hold on to a piece of Iraq and Syria. The smart money is that he won't, if history recent and distant is anything to go buy. The Ottoman Sultan declared himself a caliph in 1880, partly in the hopes that Indian Muslims would turn on the colonial British administration there. It didn't work - and during World War I, Indian Muslim troops under British command helped defeat the Ottoman Empire in what was to become Iraq.

The Taliban's Mullah Omar tried the caliph gambit too. In 1996, shortly after after conquering Kandahar and on the verge of controlling Afghanistan, he wrapped himself in a cloak purported to have been worn by the prophet Mohamed and declared himself the leader of the world's Muslims. Today, Omar lives in Pakistan."


http://news.yahoo.com/self-declared-iraqi-caliph-wants-rule-world-193418351.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

ISIL (Islamic state of Iraq and Levant) threat discussed by Saudis and John Kerry, also support for moderate opposition in Syria. The Saudis increase forces on border with Iraq.
At present, the Saudi king is pressing Sunnis in Iraq to support the Iraqi government (see Reuters report, June 28, "Saudi king tells Kerry he will press Sunnis to join Iraq government." The Saudis distrust Maliki because he seems to represent only Shias in Iraq, but the ISIL forces are getting close to Saudi (Sunni) territory.

The stupid and childish "he said/he didn't say" argument is tiresome and contributes nothing to a cogent discussion about the effect of ISIL on the Iraq-Iran-Saudi Arabia region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

Black is the new white

Demographic is the new Muslim


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM

I have no contempt or hatred of Muslims and have never expressed any.
In that thread I stated probably a dozen times that it was not about Muslims or Islam.
All you can do is wilfully misinterpret that single three year old post.
Nothing else from that whole thread or all my years of posting supports your made up accusation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Bunny boiling is one of Keith's specialties - I think Jamie Oliver has made an offer for the recipe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM

Did you two guys ever watch the movie, Fatal Attraction?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM

"Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads."
It is not up to you to decide what is "related and unrelated" - you have been told this often enough.
As far as I am concerned, anything you have to say on Muslims id directly relevant to your contempt and hatred of them, as confirmed so clearly by you in your statement - look on it as having your record being taken into consideration before passing sentence, if you like.
You are entitled to open as many topics as you like, just as I am entitled to post where I consider relevant - if you in any way attempt to interfere with my right to do so again I will have you stopped, and if you persist, I will request your removal.
You challenged anybody to show how you have not attacked the Muslim people or their religion - I responded to that challenge - yu don't like the response - tough!
No matter how many names you put up, you have at no time produced a single statement of anybody of note condemning an entire ethnic community in the manner you have - it would have been both illegal and and career suicide for any of them to have done so.
Now, get out of everybody's way and let us get on with these discussions without your interference.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

Corrected version.
sorry.

Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads.
This is the last response I will make here.
I will open another if you keep on.
Pity they closed the last one opened for that purpose.

And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote

I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation and ascribe it to the culture (nb NOT religion) of their community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM

Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads.
This is the last response I will make here.
I will open another if you keep on.
Pity they closed the last one opened for that purpose.

And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote

I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin-Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation and ascribe it to the culture (nb NOT reigion) of their community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

Keith has form when it comes to saying something and later saying he was only quoting. Happy for it to be from him till he gets challenged though, on numerous occasions.

Untrue.
Just more made up Musket shit.

I was just quoting back to Don his question FROM THE PREVIOUS POST if you care to look.
That is why it was in quotes.
I used quotes to show that the words were not mine.

What is the demographic you feel ok to demonise as groomers and rapists then Keith?

None.
I did refer to the fact that offenders of one specific crime were disproportionately from the British Pakistani community.



"Mr Shafiq profiles the offenders as Asian men, predominantly Pakistani, who want easy sex and are prepared to pay to abuse girls as young as 13.
Of 68 recent convictions for on-street grooming, 59 were of British Pakistani men.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9252003/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Mohammed-Shafiq-the-campaigner-who-stood-up-to-the-abusers.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM

I found this on Wiki and was trying to think what it reminds me of.

"It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, or enslave the Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic populations, whom they considered inferior, and to repopulate the land with Germanic people.[2][3][4] The entire urban population was to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.[2] The policy of Lebensraum implicitly assumed the superiority of Germans as members of an Aryan master race who by virtue of their superiority had the right to displace people deemed to be part of inferior races.[3] The Nazis insisted that Lebensraum needed to be developed as racially homogeneous to avoid intermixing with peoples deemed to be part of inferior races.[3] As such, peoples deemed to be part of inferior races living within territory selected to be Lebensraum were subject to expulsion or destruction.[3] Nazi Germany also supported other nations' pursuing their own Lebensraum, including Fascist Italy .[5]"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM

"Keith A has told you repeatedly that the comment you ascribe to him was a Quote from someone addressing the phenomenon of gangs grooming vulnerable juvenile females for sex in the UK
And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote - there was never such a quote from any public figure and if there had been, it would still be a racist smear on an entire community.
As it is, he invented his 'quotes' to dig himself out of the Klarts

Perhaps you might like to fill in his omission -
No?
Thought not!
You might have some luck on the 'BNP', 'Muslim, Watch', or similar sites
Read what has been written Corporal Jones
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

"Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then" - Christmas wrongly attributing a comment to Keith A of Hertford that HE didn't actually make

Keith A has told you repeatedly that the comment you ascribe to him was a Quote from someone addressing the phenomenon of gangs grooming vulnerable juvenile females for sex in the UK.

Unfortunately Christmas only hears what he wants to hear and only reads and acknowledges whatever suits and agrees with his preformed opinions on any given issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

You are just believing your own prejudice and preconceptions.
I have no agenda, and you have no grounds to assume such a thing.

You have never highlighted any bigoted statement of mine, only claimed that I must have made them.
I never have.

Instead of just applying labels to me that do not fit, please just respond to what I actually say.
Discuss and debate.

I have never criticised Muslims or Islam, only ever Islamists and Islamism.
In discussing grooming gangs, i referred to a factual over-representation of one demographic, never "people of colour."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM

"I have not checked but I think I have seen posts by Bobad on other topics."
Bobad has a tendency to draw his cut-'n-pastes (he offers nothing else) from extremist sites like 'White Supremist' and 'Muslim Watch' (probably the largest selection ever on this forum).
Recently he has tended towards 'Gatestone' and extremist Zionist site.
"I have never criticised Islam or Muslims in general."
Sorry - "all Male Pakistani Muslims" isn't quite all Muslims, but the entire male gender of a million and a half people is enough to be going on with.
If not religion - why specify Muslims?
As Richard points out, your persistent attacks on Muslims, not to mention your domination of thread after thread on the subject until they disappear into oblivion (known as filibustering) indicates somewhat of a tendency, you might say.
" I will open a dedicated thread so no-one has to see us rehash this shit yet again."
Please don't claim this as a blessing as you have in the past, but open as many threads as you like - that is your right as a member.
I will raise your extremist Islamophobia wherever and whenever I see fit - that is my right as a member.
Don't you ***** dare interfere with that right ever again - who do you think you are?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

It is very odd, Keith, how you say you do not intend to slur all Muslims, but so many of us see that your repeated comments - almost all of which criticise some Muslims or persons of colour - can only, in reasonable eyes, convey the impression that you seek generally to denigrate Muslims or persons of colour. These are the preponderance of your posts. The only reasonable interpretation is that that is your agenda.

Much the same goes for Terry, and Ake.

I have not checked but I think I have seen posts by Bobad on other topics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

Jim,
Yet you make sweeping derogatory statements about Muslims,

This is a lie Jim.
I have never criticised Islam or Muslims in general.
Never.
In that thread I was at pains to state over and over that it was nothing to do with religion.
I had made abundantly clear that the word "Muslim" in Don's question had no relevance, but I quoted him.

If you want to discuss it with me further, do it on pm or I will open a dedicated thread so no-one has to see us rehash this shit yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

This issue has gone beyond debate, these people are dangerously crazy and dangerously well armed.
Every day they become more powerful, the "fifth columns" are already at work in every country in the world.

Aided by.....what did Stalin call them?    "useful idiots"?
These "idiots" are drawn to every divisive and destructive cause, social and political.

In truth they are in themselves a menace to society.
They have created a Disneyland Society, where all is sunshine and flowers, problems are carefully airbrushed away, until, as Teribus has remarked, some poor bastards have to face up to them.

Are they fools or enemies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM

"The Cambridge Union Society's debates are at least as good as those at its Oxford "
If you think Keith is a "good debater" it's a pity you didn't attend more of them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 AM

Bobad and Akenaton.

Serving the community in restoring your cynicism in the human race.






Jesus fucking wept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM

Guest#, your link to the NY Times article by Khaleb Diab says virtually the same as he does in the link I posted here: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=154376&messages=1412&page=2&desc=yes#3636008 the one to which Musket remarked "What's all this bollocks about wine etc?" and to which I responded "Good ol' Musket, clueless as ever - talk about thick. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

The Cambridge Union Society's debates are at least as good as those at its Oxford equivalent, which it preceded in foundation by eight years (Cambridge Union 1815; Oxford Union 1823 obviously in imitation).   I debated in the Cambridge Union frequently 60 years ago in my student days, & was also a member of one of its administrative committees. So I don't quite know what Jim on about at 0258 pm; but that's nothing new: he does rather tend to make his facts up, rather than ascertaining what is correct -- Cambridge Union Society & Oxford Union Society can both be easily accessed on Wikipedia.

~M~


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