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BS: Caliphate

Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 11:05 AM
Greg F. 12 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Aug 14 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 06:16 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Aug 14 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 14 - 02:45 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 14 - 01:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 02:41 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 01:54 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 01:45 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM
bobad 11 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM
bobad 11 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM
Greg F. 11 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 11:41 AM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 08:31 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Aug 14 - 05:38 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM

"I'm not at all sure that Ireland is an exact parallel, Jim."
Sorry Richard - I assumed everyoe knows what happened on Easter Week, 1916.
At the beginning of the week a group of rebels entered the GPO in Dublin, held it for a week and, following a period of bloody fighting, surrendered.
As a national rebellion it was a non-event.
They were regarded as a bunch of eccentrics and the British soldiers had to protect the rebels from an angry crowd of Dubs demanding to know why they weren't "in the trenches, fighting alongside our lads(WW1)".
Most of the rebels were imprisoned in Frongoch, in North Wales, but the leaders were all taken out and summarily executed - the prevailing image of the period is that of James Connolly who was so badly wounded, he had to be strapped into a chair in order to be shot.      
In a matter of months, an "eccentric adventure" had been transformed into a nation-wide war of Independence (more thuggish British brutality), leading to the signing of a treaty within 6 years because of Britain's neanderthal reaction to a valid political uprising.
"When will they ever learn?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM

Clearly true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM

Greggie doesn't bother to read things before he lies about them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:05 AM

If you read it you would see that the source was Reuters Greg.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/uk-lebanon-security-arsal-idUKKBN0GC0I020140812


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM

Source, Bullshot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM

Islamic State insurgents who seized a Lebanese border town this month planned to turn Lebanon into another Iraq by unleashing sectarian war between Sunnis and Shi'ites that would have endangered the nation's very existence, the army commander said.

General Jean Kahwaji told Reuters that radical Islamists on the march in Iraq and Syria still posed a "great threat" to Lebanon, which was torn apart by a 1975-90 civil war and has been badly buffeted by the Syrian conflict.

"The army hit them and continues to, smashing their plan," said Kahwaji, 37 of whose soldiers were either killed or captured in the battle for the border town of Arsal. "But this does not mean that the story is over," he said.

"They might think of another plan and try another time to cause Sunni-Shi'ite strife," said Kahwaji, 60.

The Aug. 2 attack marked the most serious spillover to date of Syria's three-year-old civil war into Lebanon and the first time a foreign invader has taken Lebanese territory since Israel entered the south during its 2006 war with Hezbollah.

Battle-hardened in Syria, the insurgents were members of radical Sunni groups including the Islamic State, which has redrawn the borders of the Middle East by seizing territory in Syria and Iraq. The group's advance has accelerated since it seized the Iraqi city of Mosul in June.

Dozens of the militants were killed in Arsal during a five-day battle with the Lebanese army, according to army estimates. The militants withdrew into the mountainous border zone last Thursday, taking with them 19 captive soldiers.

Kahwaji, dressed in military fatigues, said the Islamists' aim had been to turn the Sunni Muslim town of Arsal into a bridgehead from which to advance on surrounding Shi'ite villages, igniting a sectarian fire storm he said would have destroyed Lebanon.

"The strife in Iraq would have moved to Lebanon - 100 percent," said Kahwaji, a Maronite Christian.

He said he was basing his assessment on the confessions of an Islamist commander whose detention on Aug. 2 was the immediate trigger for the battle. The commander, Emad Gomaa, had been "fine tuning" the plan at the time of his arrest, Kahwaji said.

Gomaa, 30, was a member of the Nusra Front, al Qaeda's affiliate in the conflict, but had recently switched allegiance to the Islamic State. He had previously worked as a purveyor of dairy products, Kahwaji said.

His confessions had led to the arrest of a number of militant cells in different parts of Lebanon, he added.

"Would there have remained a state? It is a battle for the survival of the Lebanese entity," Kahwaji said.

Tensions between Lebanese Shi'ites and Sunnis are already running high, exacerbated by the role played by the powerful Shi'ite group Hezbollah fighting alongside President Bashar al-Assad's forces in Syria.

Lebanese Sunnis have broadly been supportive of the uprising against Assad, a member of the Alawite sect, which is an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam. Lebanon is also now home to an estimated 1.6 million Syrian refugees, most of them Sunnis.

Though its arsenal is more powerful than the Lebanese army's, Hezbollah stayed out of the Arsal battle, wary of wider sectarian strife in a country already hit by suicide bombings, gun battles and rocket attacks linked to the Syrian war.

The arrival of Islamic State fighters waving the group's black flag on the northeastern border triggered panic in a country that is home to many religious groups at risk from a movement that has beheaded and crucified its opponents.

Kahwaji said: "If the world and the people give up, then the black flag will arrive in Lebanon. But the people are with the army and they won't let them arrive."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:38 AM

I don't see that one can execute prisoner ex-combatants without due process, but I don't see much alternative to blasting the crap out of Isis from the air and on land. Air power only will not do the job, and so far local ground forces have proved ineffective.

However, we don't really want most of Iraq and Syria turned into fused glass, and Vietnam for example tends to show that where the enemy can hide in plain sight it can easily strike, vanish, and reappear to strike at will. Yes, I accept there are more trees in Vietnam.

I'm not at all sure that Ireland is an exact parallel, Jim. There the UK was vastly outnumbered on the ground AND the enemy could hide in plain sight. If one put enough forces on the ground against Isis it would probably be possible to take territory - but keeping it and keeping the occupying force safe could easily get a bit like Afghanistan - where I do not doubt that most people would dearly love to be rid of the Taliban and Taliban-alike but are oppressed by the greater firepower and inhuman viciousness that the religious fanatics can muster. Yes, there is some similarity to the IRA but not a huge amount.

What would you suggest, Jim, if land and air firepower cannot largely exterminate Isis?

The situation bears some resemblance to a parent with a delinquent child. How hard do you beat him or her and will it work?

I'd like to see that map, Terribilis. Have you a link?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

"Kill every single IS "fighter" in existence and not one single person would rise up to avenge them"
Yeah sure - just like happened in Ireland!!
You really are a brain-dead thus, aren't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:55 AM

"A bunch of religion-driven fanatics just need a bunch of martyrs to pour some petrol into their tank, and the world just needs to see the U.S, behaving just as brutally as Isis.
The Isis leadership should be put on trial bu the International Court of Human Rights, charged with war crimes and when found guilty, sentenced accordingly."


Kill every single IS "fighter" in existence and not one single person would rise up to avenge them - they are complete scum that not even their own co-religionists want any association with.

Why go to the trouble and expense of trials and incarceration they wish for, above anything else in the world, a "martyrs death" - every possible means in the world should be used to aid them in achieving that goal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:16 AM

"they need to be killed, the sooner the better"
What a mind-numbing piece of neanderthal stupidity on all counts
I would have thought that we could have learned from history that executing leaders has the reverse effect of what is trying to be achieved - 1916 Ireland should have thought Britain that
A bunch of religion-driven fanatics just need a bunch of martyrs to pour some petrol into their tank, and the world just needs to see the U.S, behaving just as brutally as Isis.
The Isis leadership should be put on trial bu the International Court of Human Rights, charged with war crimes and when found guilty, sentenced accordingly.
I do hope you wear gloves Terpsichore otherwise your knuckles must get very sore being dragged along the ground.
By the way - if that's what Obama meant, he should have said it and not have us all worrying when the next bunch of Marines were going to parachute into our back gardens
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:34 AM

I think Richard President Obama was saying that IS in Iraq is an Iraqi problem that they {The Iraqi Government} will have to come up with a solution to that problem - in the meantime the US will respond to the Iraqi Government's request for assistance in the form of supplying air power in support of both military and humanitarian operations.

Interesting map shown on the Beeb yesterday it showed IS "controlled" areas in Syria and in Western Iraq. It would appear that all they really control are lines along certain roads, and that apart from Aleppo in Syria they must be getting tanked there - Assad's forces are winning their battle.

Now should I find myself at the receiving end of the effects of "air power", the very last country I would want to have on my case would be the USA. Using certain parts of Iraq as a live firing area bit by bit over the coming days and weeks IS will find itself paralysed, unable to move anything by road or deploy and use any of these "toys" they have picked up along the way. The reverse will be true for their opponents. Hopefully there will be no intention of capturing the members of this Islamic State they need to be killed, the sooner the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM

"By its charter the UN is bound to intervene to stop genocide."
There's always someone ready with a veto, used extensively by the U.s. and Russia, to stop such things happening if it doesn't suit them - maybe it's time they scrapped that right.
Still doesn't acknowledge the 'catch-all' rider added by the U.S. to protect its own interests
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:29 AM

On paper US (and allied) ground forces might be some use - after all they spifflicated Saddam Hussein's ground forces who had something of a reputation as desert warriors - but there are several buts. First they would properly need the permission of the legitimate governments of all the territories involved, and second that is likely to involve a deal with Assad (devil, long spoon, etc), and third - is it not going to create more martyrs?

Second option, not an offensive ground war but simply a defensive one - but I am pressed to think of times this has been successful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM

If air power can not do it, and the Iraqi and Kurdish forces can not do it, what else is there?

By its charter the UN is bound to intervene to stop genocide.
Sadly, it never has before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

And now the USA officially agrees with me - air power alone cannot stop Isis. Come on armchair warriors - how about a battle plan for a solution rather than simply saying "they are Muslims".


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM

Sorry - did that actually mean anything, me little goose-stepper?
America, by announcing her policy in the way it was stated, gave herself the right to extend her action to wherever there are American interests
Isn't your reader up yet - maybe you should leave it till later!
Not one of you bunch of warriors has commented on the comments of the list of Jews who find all this as offensive as the rest of us
no surprise there
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:54 AM

"Maybe Middle eastern oil is no longer of interest to the U.S."

In which case Christmas, my batty little fruit cake, why mention it, or does it have to be mentioned in accordance your little lefty-Stalinist script.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:45 AM

"What oil interests, Christmas?"
When the U.S. announced its intentions to become involved in this, it did so on the basis that it was doing so on humanitarian grounds - excellent, pity it didn't apply in Syria or Gaza, but there you go.
It added the rider "and in order to protect the interests of the American people", which left it free go "go where no man ought to go" wherever and whenever it saw fit
Maybe Middle eastern oil is no longer of interest to the U.S. and we no longer have to concern ourselves with Gulf Wars or Weapons of Mass Destruction - what does your friend, who reads these things for you think, me little Tortoise?
Asleep on duty again, tsk, tsk, - you'll be put on a charge.
Back to your post.
"I am just questioning why Israel's actions are so much more discussed than the much worse behaviour of others"
No you are not - you are just claiming infallibility for Israel once again.
Israel has just slaughtered around 2000 people; in the past it engineered the rape and massacre of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees.
It has given itself the right to declare Israel to be wherever she wishes it to be, to evict or slaughter anybody who gets in her way.
She has the manpower and weapons, including nuclear facility, to carry out such a policy and is ruled by an extremist right-wing government driven by a mission and a 'God-given' right.
She has the power to reduce the Middle East to ashes, making her a far greater threat than all the other fanatical headbangers rolled together.
We've just seen what she is prepared to do to anybody who interferes with her ambitions.
She is the leading threat to world peace and safety today.
"You really could benefit from psychiatric help, you know"
Too late for that, I'm afraid - he's "infallible, don't forget - someone else with a Messianic Mission.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:42 AM

" I am against the United States using the plight of those "suffering, desperate people" as a window of opportunity to protect its oil interests."

What oil interests, Christmas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 02:41 PM

I am not claiming "absolution" for anyone.
I am just questioning why Israel's actions are so much more discussed than the much worse behaviour of others.

Guardian,
"Tiny Israel ranks fifth in the list of foreign countries most reported on by the Guardian. Gaza is an important news story – but the wall-to-wall coverage leaves many scratching their heads. Nobody seems to recall similar attention devoted to the far greater civilian casualties of the UK's operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM

Keith, you are trying to grant absolution to Israel for irrational reasons. Even if there should be more coverage of Isis and Boko Haram, none of that exculpates Israel, and the insistence that it is "antisemitism" frankly does those suffering from real antisemitism a disservice.


I would however ask why it is that you and your fellow travellers decry what you allege to be a PC reluctance to investigate alleged wrongdoing by Muslims, or their prevalence on schoolboards - but support a definition of antisemitism that (by way of my paraphrase) includes as a form of antisemitism the questioning of whether Jews have excessive influence or control of media or the law or of legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:54 PM

Greggie boy,

As you are the certified insane resident bigot, I ams sure you know far more about needing psychiatric help than the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:45 PM

Special privileges like you Boo & etc. grant to Israel you mean, Bullshot?

WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD???

You really could benefit from psychiatric help, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM

Greggie,,

ANd if we do, YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Are you still claiming that YOU get to do things tat the rest of us are forbidden to do? That you and your stooges have special privileges, and don't have the same rules to follow as those you DEMAND of the rest of us?


WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD???


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic...

Amusing, Boo, especially as you, Bullshot & FKWT constantly do the same thing when you can spin it to Israel's favor.

Have you got a mirror in the house?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

There has been much coverage since Quraqosh and Sinjar fell, but little previously.
Guardian,
""Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

Keith, you are imagining that predominantly only Israel is criticised. There were pages on ISIS in the Mirror just recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM

BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,keith A - PM
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:36 AM

If only all those people and politicians now opposing any intervention had expressed that view back when Obama first announced that he regarded chemical weapons as a red line.

If only they had objected at the time that they actually did not care what methods of slaughter were used on Syrians, Obama would have known what to expect.

No-one on Mudcat came out and said it was not our concern whether gas, germs or radionucleides rained on innocent families, but now they are outraged that Obama assumed decent people would support him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM

"The weapons inspectors have resumed their work."
Excellent - hope they get finished before the Brits and US invade, as they seem to have decided (at long last) to do
Jim Carroll

chemical weapons in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:31 PM

If we do not treat nerve gas as different to every other form of violent oppression, it will become just as common.

At the moment it is still a "red line."
A "game changer."

If we lose that we condemn unknown thousands to death by nerve gas because any tyrant can get it cheap.

They might hesitate if they know it will cost them their presidential palace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM

Yes Jim, but Obama's proposed intervention over CW was over a year later, and I supported it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM

You are a ******* liar Keith
Not only did you not support intervention, but you expressed fears at what would happen if Assad fell - you actually supported the bastard while at the same time wringing your hands for what he was doing.
Correction - you are a hypocritical liar
Jim Carroll

"Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:25 AM
I am criticised for not having any solutions to the crisis in Syria.
That puts me in good company with the world's greatest statesmen and leaders!
I DO NOT FAVOUR A MILITARY INTERVENTION.
I ALSO FEAR FOR SYRIA'S CHRISTIANS IF AND WHEN THE REGIME FALLS.

I started the thread to express horror at the indiscriminate attacks on civilians (hand=wringing sympathy according to the Hard Left), and anger that all attempts to secure a Security Council resolution were being blocked by Russia and China who also continued to arm the regime.
The Hard Left seemed not to share in that anger, reserving it all for Britain."


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM

I guess Mr. Abbott has forgotten about the "trophies" that soldiers - U.S, British, Austrlian, etc - took in Vietnam, eh Boo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM

TONY Abbott has denounced as "hideous" and "barbaric" a photograph of Australian terrorist Khaled Sharrouf's son holding the severed head of a slain Syrian soldier.

The shocking photograph — posted on Twitter by a proud father with the words "Thats my boy!" - drew condemnation from across the political divide after being published in The Australian today. The picture has attracted worldwide news coverage.

Barbaric image of Khaled Sharrouf's son a warning to the world: Tony Abbott


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM

Jim, I did support Obama's proposed intervention over CW.
So did France's socialist government, both US parties and all 3 UK main parties.
Against were the Tea Party, UKIP, and all your Mudcat mates.
Remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM

Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton blamed the rise of Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria on failures of US policy under President Barack Obama

Bullshit, Bullshot.

Blame lies with the failed interventionist policies of U.S. Presidents Bush I, Ronnie RayGun & Bush II.

This one ain't down to Obama. Hillary is just starting her presidential campaigning a bit early.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:41 AM

It is the massive emphasis only on attacking Israel for its actions.
It's fairly obvious that the Israeli propaganda factory is getting its act together in presenting opposition to the Gazan massacre as 'Antisemitic' - it's a ploy that will backfire on every Jew on the planet
"I think you made that up Jim, but he did support Obamas' proposed intervention over chemical weapons like You and I did"
You have opposed all intervention in Syria and you described my doing so as "invasion" (which you continue to do) "warmongering and fascism"
Why do you make these statements publicly if you intend to lie about them later, and if you supported intervention, why did you propose providing anti-riot equipment and defend the sale of sniper rifles and chemicals for weapons
The lobotomy obviously didn't work!
Jim Carroll

Jews for Justice
American Liberl Zionist Response
Jewish blogs
Independant Jewish voices - Canada
Crisis among American Zionists
Global Jewry
Stop the War Coalition
Jewish Voice for Peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM

Washington (AFP) - Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton blamed the rise of Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria on failures of US policy under President Barack Obama, in an interview published Sunday.

Clinton specifically faulted the US decision to stay on the sidelines of the insurgency against Syria's President Bashar al-Assad as opening the way for the most extreme rebel faction, the Islamic State.

"The failure to help build up a credible fighting force of the people who were the originators of the protests against Assad —- there were Islamists, there were secularists, there was everything in the middle -— the failure to do that left a big vacuum, which the jihadists have now filled," Clinton told the Atlantic.

Clinton, widely considered an undeclared presidential candidate, was an unsuccessful advocate of arming the Syrian rebels when she was secretary of state during Obama's first term.

She was interviewed before the US president's decision Thursday to order limited air strikes to check an IS offensive into Kurdistan, which threatened US nationals and facilities and sent thousands of refugees fleeing into the mountains.

Obama, who oversaw the US withdrawal from Iraq in 2011, vowed not to send US troops back into the country and said Iraqis needed to confront the jihadist threat by forming an inclusive unity government.

Clinton, however, suggested in the interview that Obama lacked a strategy for dealing with the jihadist threat.

"Great nations need organizing principles, and 'Don't do stupid stuff' is not an organizing principle," she said referring to an Obama slogan.

She said the United States must develop an "overarching" strategy to confront Islamist extremism, likening it to the long US struggle against Soviet-led communism.

"One of the reasons why I worry about what's happening in the Middle East right now is because of the breakout capacity of jihadist groups that can affect Europe, can affect the United States," she said. "Jihadist groups are governing territory. They will never stay there, though. They are driven to expand. Their raison d'etre is to be against the West, against the Crusaders, against the fill-in-the-blank—and we all fit into one of these categories.

"How do we try to contain that? I'm thinking a lot about containment, deterrence, and defeat," she said.

Her arguments, seen as an attempt to distance herself from Obama, echoed those of Republican critics who accuse Obama of allowing a power vacuum to develop by failing to bring US leadership to bear in conflicts from Syria to Iraq to Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamic State militants have killed at least 500 members of Iraq's Yazidi ethnic minority during their offensive in the north, Iraq's human rights minister told Reuters on Sunday.

Mohammed Shia al-Sudani said the Sunni militants had also buried alive some of their victims, including women and children. Some 300 women were kidnapped as slaves, he added.

"We have striking evidence obtained from Yazidis fleeing Sinjar and some who escaped death, and also crime scene images that show indisputably that the gangs of the Islamic States have executed at least 500 Yazidis after seizing Sinjar," Sudani told Reuters.

Sinjar is the ancient home of the Yazidis, one of the towns captured by the Sunni militants who view the community as "devil worshipers".

"Some of the victims, including women and children were buried alive in scattered mass graves in and around Sinjar," Sudani said.

The Islamic State, which has declared a caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria, has prompted tens of thousands of Yazidis and Christians to flee for their lives during their push to within a 30-minute drive of the Kurdish regional capital Arbil.

The Yazidis, followers of an ancient religion derived from Zoroastrianism, are spread over northern Iraq and are part of the country's Kurdish minority.

A deadline passed at midday on Sunday for 300 Yazidi families to convert to Islam or face death at the hands of the Islamic State. It was not immediately clear whether the Iraqi minister was talking about the fate of those families or others in the conflict.

The militant group, which arrived in northern Iraq in June, has routed Kurds in its latest advance, seizing several towns, a fifth oilfield and Iraq's biggest dam - possibly gaining the ability to flood cities and cut off water and power supplies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM

Richard,
What some have appeared to argue is that if not enough is done about Isis it somehow justifies Israel's (actual or alleged) war crimes. That is another manifest stupidity.

No.
It is the massive emphasis only on attacking Israel for its actions.
Guardian 3 days ago,

"Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM

Islamic State has crushed a pocket of resistance to its control in eastern Syria, crucifying two people and executing 23 others in the past five days, a monitoring group said on Monday.
The insurgents, who are also making rapid advances in Iraq, are tightening their grip in Syria, of which they now controls roughly a third, mostly rural areas in the north and east.

The group, an al-Qaida offshoot, has fought the Syrian army, Kurdish militias, and Sunni Muslim tribal forces.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a Britain-based monitoring organization, and residents in Syria's east said that fighters from the al-Sheitaat tribe in eastern Deir al-Zor had tried to resist Islamic State's advance this month.

In al-Shaafa, a town on the banks of the Euphrates river, Islamic State beheaded two men from the al-Sheitaat clan on Sunday, the Observatory said, and gave residents a 12-hour deadline on Monday to hand over members of the tribe.

In other parts of Deir al-Zor province, the militants crucified two men for the crime of "dealing with apostates" in the city of Mayadin, and two others for blasphemy in the nearby town of al-Bulel, the Observatory said.

Islamic State has made rapid gains in Syria since it seized northern Iraq's largest city, Mosul, on June 10, and declared an Islamic caliphate on territory it controls in Syria and Iraq.

The Observatory said a further 19 men from the al-Sheitaat tribe were executed on Thursday, 18 shot dead and one beheaded, on the outskirts of Deir al-Zor city. It said the men worked at an oil installation.

"No one will now dare from the other tribes to move against Islamic State after the defeat of the al-Sheitaat," said Ahmad Ziyada al-Qaissi, an Islamic State sympathizer contacted by Skype from Mayadin.

Tribal sources say the conflict between Islamic State and the al-Sheitaat tribe, who number about 70,000, flared after Islamic State took over of two oil fields in July.

One of those, al-Omar, is the biggest oil and gas field in Deir al-Zor and has been a lucrative source of funds for rebel groups.

The head of the al-Sheitaat tribe, Sheikh Rafaa Aakla al-Raju, called in a video message for other tribes to join the fight against Islamic State.

"We appeal to the other tribes to stand by us because it will be their turn next ... If (Islamic State) are done with us, the other tribes will targeted after al-Sheitaat. They are the next target," he said in the video, posted on YouTube on Sunday.



WINNING RESPECT

A Syrian human rights activist from Deir al-Zor who fled for Turkey last year said rebels opposed to President Bashar al-Assad had retreated to al-Sheitaat tribal areas from which they had been trying to mount resistance to Islamic State's expansion.

He said, on condition of anonymity, that the resistance had been crushed in the past few days. "The situation is very bad, but the people can't repel them," he said.

He said that in tandem with their violent campaign, Islamic State was distributing gas, electricity, fuel, and food to garner local support.

"It is a poor area. They are winning support this way. They won a lot of support this way. They are halting theft and punishing thieves. This is also giving them credibility."

More than 170,000 people have been killed in Syria's civil war, which pits overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim rebels against Assad, a member of the Shi'ite-derived Alawite minority, backed by Shi'ite militias from Iraq and Lebanon.

The insurgency is split between competing factions, with Islamic State emerging as the most powerful.

In Raqqa, Islamic State's power base in Syria, its hold appears to be growing only firmer even as Syrian government forces intensify air strikes on territory held by the group.

One Syrian living in an area of Islamic State control near Raqqa said the number of its fighters in the streets had grown dramatically in the past few weeks, particularly since it captured the army's 17th Division at the end of July.

The group has carried out beheadings, levied a tax on non-Muslims, and settled foreign fighters in confiscated homes, said the resident, who asked for anonymity because of security concerns.

But despite that, as in Deir al-Zor, it has won a degree of respect among locals by curbing crime using its version of law and order. For youths without work, salaries offered by Islamic State are one of the few sources of income.

"The (Islamic) State has respect and standing, and its voice is heard," said the resident, speaking by Skype.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-islamic-state-beheads-crucifies-in-push-for-syrias-east-2014-11#ixzz3A5abtQKb


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM

Thank you for apology, Richard. My Californian relations do spell it Mayer: & in fact Louis B Mayer of MGM was my 1st cousin twice removed, ie my paternal grandfather's first cousin. So my initials, and the use I put them to for my current Mudcat name, are not entirely adventitious. Sorry if you got confused.

I suppose that means that delectable Judy Garland must have been some sort of mistress-in-law of mine. & much good may that do me!

I wasn't thinking of British Lion, but of the creature who always gives those three "Grr·ROARrr·Rrr!'s at the beginning of all Cousin Louis's films.

FWIW, the only one I have actually met is my [can't work out how
many·℔] cousin Danny Mayer, who was a dancer who always came over as part of Judy Garland's company for her annual season at the Dominion in Tottenham Court Road, during one of which she died. A couple of years before, he contacted my grandmother, then in her 80s and living in Kensington, & we all went to tea to meet him. He was one of the dancers in the crap-game-in-the-sewer sequence in Guys & Dolls. Next time you see it, watch out for the one in the big green fedora hat; that's my cousin Danny!

All of which has a great deal to do with the Caliphate, eh?


                   ~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:42 AM

No - Cameron proposed sending armed assistance,
I think you made that up Jim, but he did support Obamas' proposed intervention over chemical weapons like You and I did.

Cameron's problem was that he sold ammunition to Assad,
No he did not.

In the middle of the Homs carnage one of Cameron's ministers declared that the the conflict must in no way interfere with future British trade - Rule Britannia, eh?

Made up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM

"I supported that too Jim."
No - Cameron proposed sending armed assistance, which you opposed and described as "fascism" and "warmongering" -
You supported selling him "riot control equipment because ""even democracies have to be able to maintain law and order".
Cameron's problem was that he sold ammunition to Assad, as well as riot control equipment, armoured cars, tear gas and water cannon which you supported
Two weeks into the Arab Spring protests he opened a massive arms sale aimed at some of the dictators under fire by the protesters - that nice Mr Cable said it was common policy, so we ca have more to look forward to in the future
In the middle of the Homs carnage one of Cameron's ministers declared that the the conflict must in no way interfere with future British trade - Rule Britannia, eh?
Never advocated invasion and how could you support anything long before as Britain never mentioned acting in any way until they put it to a vote in parliament - your nose must be ten times as long as Pinocchio Blair's by now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:31 AM

PS - every so often one still hears uses of "nice" that do to some extent reflect the first English uses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

Sorry, Myer, about your name. Your adoption of a conflation of the names of British Lion Films and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer boggles my mind. I infer it indicates some conceit or other: something not alien to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

What I proposed is exactly what I said, which was what Cameron proposed

I supported that too Jim.
You me Bobad BB and Teribus were the only ones here who did.

Long before that you (alone) were advocating a Western invasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:38 AM

"it means to kill one in ten, as Meyer says. I do not agree with him that the prevalence of ignorance makes ignorance wisdom".
.,,.

I* do not agree that acceptance of the evolution of the meaning of a word to differ from its original meaning necessarily constitutes 'ignorance'. It is a familiar process with regard to much of our vocabulary. A nice point, one might think: by which I don't mean a pleasant one, but one with certain distinctions of meaning to be observed. I would suggest trying to trace the history of that word "nice", before inaccurately attributing opinions which they do not in fact hold to those who might just know better than oneself. I have mentioned before how much confidence I consider it would be appropriate to place in the linguistic & semantic opinions of Mr Bridge (or, as he would himself so courteously put it, "of Bridge".)

≈M≈


*[who am called Myer as it happens; it is generally regarded as a courtesy to get people's names correct; I always try to take care to do so myself]


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM

1. I know the accurate meaning of the word "decimate". Historically it means to kill one in ten, as Meyer says. I do not agree with him that the prevalence of ignorance makes ignorance wisdom. I said "decimate (or worse)". Any attempt to assert that there is a material difference between that and "decimate or worse" is a manifest stupidity. To exterminate a set of people is in many respects worse than killing one in ten of them. I was, therefore, right in what I said.

2. Yes, there are rules of war. Anyone who asserts that that is not so, or that that should not be so, is an actual or potential war criminal.

3. Whatever their religion, Isis are criminals. Their actions, not their religion, make them legitimate targets. The problem is how to stop them. No-one here has ever suggested that what Isis are doing is right or justified. What some have appeared to argue is that if not enough is done about Isis it somehow justifies Israel's (actual or alleged) war crimes. That is another manifest stupidity.

4. It might be interesting to examine whether the sources of Islam (see here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books) - and as to the forms (yes, plural) of teh Quran see here: http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/tt1/tt4.html - including the Sunnah and the Hadith - do support the establishment by force of a caliphate and the "conversion" by force of those conquered.   I doubt whether any of us here are sufficient Islamic scholars or could in the available time become sufficient Islamic scholars to spread light, rather than heat, on that subject.

5. A side question would be the reliability of the text of the Quran. It is wholly unintelligent to assert that its form is divinely cast and certain in that there is no single text that predates Uthman's consolidation of previous texts.   

6. What is the best way to stop Isis? Previous US reliance on air power has largely led to disaster, or, over time, the worsening, in one way or another, of the situation, in many different places. Is a ground war likely to be more effective? The Nigerian experience with Boko Haram is a poor parallel because of the systematic weakening of the Nigerian army, over a considerable period, for political reasons - but the experience of ground forces in Afghanistan should worry those who want armies sent in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM

"So your claiming any sort of equivalence between the two elements was tendentious,"
Not when the intention of the poster is to represent one particular brand of extremism as being superior to another, as it has been from the beginning by this particular poster.
The problem with all these 'discussions'(sic) has been, from the beginning, that there has been no genuine attempt to discuss them, rather, it has been examples of defences of personal preferences.
Your "wotterboutery" is an inevitable consequence of this
You want to discuss Muslim extremism in context of its causes - fine, I've always been game for this - you want to just to throw up example after of example in order to present extremism as being 'Muslim' - expect counterbalance.
These subjects have become little more than diatribes of hate and intolerance and Booboo with his persistent drawing of examples from some of the most extreme sources, is one of the main culprits.
Not really prepared to sit on my hands while he turns these discussions into hate-fests, sorry, and all that.
Jim Carroll


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