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BS: Whither now England?

GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 26 May 14 - 04:35 PM
Jim McLean 26 May 14 - 03:37 PM
Musket 26 May 14 - 02:41 PM
Jim McLean 26 May 14 - 02:31 PM
akenaton 26 May 14 - 02:26 PM
Musket 26 May 14 - 01:55 PM
Jim McLean 26 May 14 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 May 14 - 08:18 AM
Stu 26 May 14 - 07:51 AM
akenaton 26 May 14 - 05:19 AM
akenaton 26 May 14 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 May 14 - 04:48 AM
Backwoodsman 26 May 14 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Eliza 26 May 14 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Eliza 26 May 14 - 03:52 AM
GUEST 25 May 14 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Giok 25 May 14 - 11:27 AM
akenaton 25 May 14 - 08:28 AM
Musket 25 May 14 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Guest,Over the bar 25 May 14 - 06:44 AM
akenaton 25 May 14 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 May 14 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Allan conn 24 May 14 - 07:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 14 - 05:15 PM
Jack Campin 24 May 14 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,LynnH 24 May 14 - 02:04 PM
Musket 24 May 14 - 10:48 AM
Stu 24 May 14 - 10:24 AM
akenaton 24 May 14 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 May 14 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 24 May 14 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 May 14 - 03:51 AM
akenaton 24 May 14 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Eliza 24 May 14 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 May 14 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,LK867 24 May 14 - 02:29 AM
redhorse 23 May 14 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Dáithí 23 May 14 - 08:13 AM
Musket 23 May 14 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 07:51 AM
Musket 23 May 14 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 May 14 - 05:03 AM
Stu 23 May 14 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 May 14 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 May 14 - 04:35 AM
Stu 23 May 14 - 04:17 AM
Jim McLean 23 May 14 - 04:16 AM
akenaton 23 May 14 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Eliza 23 May 14 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 May 14 - 02:30 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:35 PM

Remains to be seen, I presume , how ukip fare in a general election, if all the policies musket describes are presented then. The opinion of the common market is another matter, that has been expressed by ukips success now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:37 PM

Musket, I think he embarrasses most decent people although I suggest "embarrassing" is a rather mild description of the effect he has one me, at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:41 PM

So in other words, UKIP won.

Regarding the post above yours, I might point out that in his Orwellian world, he would fit in nicely. After all, he calls gay families a mad social experiment and puts the word marriage in parentheses when the couple are the same gender.

If he was educated and intelligent he'd be dangerous. In the meantime, he sees shouting down bigotry and intolerance as er.. Intolerant?

Back in your hole worm. You are even embarrassing Scottish nationalists, and that takes some doing, listening to SNP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:31 PM

Musket, as I said the three unionist parties voted tactically to ensure the UKIP member won. When his address was read out at the declaration, the public laughed as he gave his address as London! The whole UKIP setup in Scotland was laughable with infighting and slagging matches so I am waiting to see their candidate unravelling. UKIP's share of the Scottish vote was just over 10% and only narrowly beat the Green Party who had no great media support. UKIP was never off the TV in Scotland unlike the SNP and Greens. Some people have spoken in favour of UKIP as is their democratic right with a little help from their Labour, Tory and Liberal friends .. but it will be regretted. Their message is pure poison but Scotland no doubt has its share of poisonous, xenophobic louts. But at least, Musket, UKIP were only fourth in Scotland while the SNP won the Scottish election by topping the polls ... not bad for a government in its 7th year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 02:26 PM

The protest part of the vote had nothing to do with "left" "right" politics; and everything to do with "liberal" cant, and if left unchecked, its inevitable destruction of society.


As I have said, we were headed for an Orwellian world, where freedom of speech and thought on social issues was proscribed.
The media had become too powerful, any pretence of democracy abandoned, any dissent demonised. The gang we see on these pages trying to silence discussion by smear and insult are a wonderful example of "liberalism" in action, thankfully admin is brave and strong enough to ensure we keep these pages free. People in the real world had thought it was impossible to speak against the power of the media, till Mr Farage showed them it could be done.

But this is about issues of sovereignty and society.......if we dare to attack the system, we will be NOT be tolerated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 01:55 PM

How did UKIP do in Scotland Jim? What does this tell you about September's referendum?

I'll tell you what, it isn't half interesting for the chattering classes but what happens when people forget to return to less extreme options now they have given real politicians a bloody nose? It isn't just ignorance and stupidity that has flocked to UKIP.

Real people with real concerns are either wanting proper politicians to sit up and listen to their fears or they actually agree with far right thugs.

I don't know how many are in each camp. Does anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:40 AM

UKIP's policy in Scotland is to end devolution and any aspiration for independence. The three unionist parties untitled to ensure the Liberal seat would NOT go to SNP. Remember, the government of an Independent Scotland will not necessarily be the SNP so a referendum on the EU could be on the cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 08:18 AM

You know, it isn't fair to say UKIP have no policies other than immigration.

I'm not sure those who voted for them want;

A 33% flat tax rate on everything you earn.

Fox hunting legalised.

Reducing the sentencing criteria for cruelty to animals.

Opting out of Human Rights.

Bars and restaurants allowing smoking.

Married gay couples being told their marriage is now illegal.

I haven't managed to find much about losing the stock market, losing 50% of export markets, losing multinational companies who provide jobs here as a gateway to Euro markets, employee rights, NHS...

Of course, regarding immigration, leaving Europe may prevent hitherto legitimate immigration from EU countries but illegal immigrants? Err.. It just means they land on our shores rather than Italy and Spain. Euro cooperation on borders wouldn't apply. The French holding camp at their end of the tunnel? Gone.

Be careful what you wish for. Akenaton is licking his chops over this, and if he's happy, just remember that earlier today he called gay families a mad social experiment on an Adjacent thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 14 - 07:51 AM

"To be a truly independent nation we must not surrender sovereignty to the Brussles."

Or the Bank of England.


"I have said for years that Scotland is a socially conservative country"

Blimey. England is a naturally left-leaning country that had had enough of Labour's fiscal ineptitude at the last general election and let the tories in, who have gone on to decimate our social structures, alienate a whole start of society with lies and have attempted to redefine us as a nation of corporate slaves. Even the Scots, the great democratic hope for these islands elected a UKIP candidate.

The results of the local and EU elections are interesting, as it seems the slaves have had enough. In the local elections, the right was divided and labour romped home, and the fact in both elections labour did well in London only goes to reinforce the claim we are being ruled by the same elite that has oppressed us for centuries. It's going to be hard to blame the ordinary working people of the capital for the woes of any of the regions when they have so comprehensively rejected the right-wing parties. Good on 'em, they are as much under the Westminster cosh as the rest of us (and they have Boris to endure too).

It's also no coincidence that in the most multicultural area of the country, the working folk have rejected the xenophobia of the middle-aged white men and women of UKIP. Out in the shires the overwhelmingly white populace has been cowed by the likes of Farage and his public-funded media campaign (thanks British media!), and have swallowed his nasty establishment bile wholeheartedly; thank the maker there are enough of us with a conscience to provide an adequate counter to these myopic, intolerant 'old school' brits.

If anyone looking on wants to know how Britain ended up with an empire, the likes of Farage built it on the backs of the working people for the aristocracy. These are the tosspots you should direct your anger at. They hate everybody BUT the establishment, which they worship.

So we wake this morning with less relevance in Europe than ever before. In some ways it's deserved, as a people we are becoming split and reverting to nationalism and all the baggage that brings with it. It's a shame we don't feel as strong together as we actually are.

But then, perhaps it has ever been thus. They hate the idea of communities coming together, becoming active and steering their own course for the common good. I have more hope for England after these results. However the media spin the xenophobe's victory, there are enough of us left who care about our society to ensure we don't let these misogynistic, homophobic, anti-intellectual, anti-art, pro-corporate, mean-minded people take this country over without a fight.

The spirit of the Diggers and the Tolpudlle Martyrs isn't driven from the land yet!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:19 AM

What I will say, as a supporter of Scottish Independence, is that Alex will have to start giving some serious thought to our position regarding the EU.

I have said for years that Scotland is a socially conservative country, and many here are appalled by the acceptance of EU laws and regulations on social and economic issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 14 - 05:06 AM

"The media has spoken"

No it hasn't. The media is thoroughly pissed off, listen to any of today's interviews. The bastards are crying their eyes out, their ideology, which you follow slavishly, has been proved a mirage and their smear tactics ineffective.....take the hint Ian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:48 AM

The media has spoken.

I always look for positives and hopefully this Europe wide dissatisfaction with how The EU has been managed will result in two things.

1. A complete overview of the structures, including the will of the people when it comes to widening the zone.

2. The people actually taking an interest. The opportunities to oppose expansion were ignored by constituents, media and Westminster politicians. The EU has been seen as something to do with measuring bananas.

With 50% of our actual trade and the huge numbers of multinational companies providing jobs here due to our membership, the only danger is that this could be compromised.

I heard Farage say that it is only the common market that Europe needs. I can't disagree but would point out that many of the policies he opposes are there to create a level playing field for said common market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:46 AM

Do you have a link, Eliza?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 14 - 04:02 AM

It looks as if the French want out as well, judging by this morning's News.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 May 14 - 03:52 AM

akenaton, I agree with everything you say. We must get out of Europe and not after a possible referendum in 2017, but immediately! Just look at the results coming in. Farage has risen to first position in the list. Why will the government not listen and act? This is a democracy after all, and if the majority want out then get us out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:48 AM

Well, you'll find out tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 25 May 14 - 11:27 AM

"Given that the media have given Farage a campaigning platform on every bulletin this is hardly surprising. You could put a used bog roll up for election and it'd poll high with that amount of airtime."

The coverage he gets, is because he is news, unlike the other boring old farts, who are scared to say anything, that is not, right on message!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 14 - 08:28 AM

"The trick isn't to fetter Europe, but to make it fit for purpose."

Don't you realise that we are no longer in a position to dictate to the EU? Germany and France have made it quite clear that there will be no re-negotiation.

We have become a hindrance, while they search for markets and influence in Eastern Europe. we are simply a parking ground for economic migrants, we are effectively being used by the EU, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Scotland, after independence will be forced to address the issue of Europe and remove herself. Unlike the UK, we are in a relatively strong position regarding trade, "Scottish" being a very strong brand in various fields.

To be a truly independent nation we must not surrender sovereignty to the Brussles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 25 May 14 - 07:22 AM

We are a trading nation. A stockbroker by the name of Nigel Farage even said so.

50% of our trade is with our European partners. The common market is a bit of a success story. Farage would risk that in order to isolate us for no given reason. I was in Norway recently and one problem they have is the need to abide by many EU directives whilst not being able to influence or veto them in order to achieve free trade.

What pays for UKIP voters benefits

The trick isn't to fetter Europe, but to make it fit for purpose. The conservatives run scared of nationalistic buffoons and try to emulate them whilst Labour roll with the punches in Brussels. I'm not sure our political parties help themselves here as both parties accidentally or otherwise allow idiots to blame the bits that prop up our economy for the bits that don't work.

At least Scotland realises the importance of remaining in Europe, and both sides of the debate agree on that much at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Guest,Over the bar
Date: 25 May 14 - 06:44 AM

Strong showing by the Sinn Fein in north and south,KKK, GET ON YOUR BIKE.
.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 14 - 05:45 AM

To say the media "assisted" Mr Farage and his party is ridiculous.
Every news and media outlet including the Mail, did their worst to smear Mr Farage and to stop discussion of his policies.

The crux of the problem is of course our membership of the EU and Mr Farage is Quite correct in stating that most of our social and economic problems spring from that.

The Open Door immigration policy will never be re-negotiated, Mrs Merkel has made that perfectly clear, we don't have the funds available to provide the infrastructure required to care for a huge number of economic migrants.
The whole mad scheme was dreamt up as a means of "making the UK more competitive in the Global market place"

So much for the brilliance of political thought.
We should never have joined and must get out as quickly as we can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 May 14 - 04:03 AM

They do have blood on their hands Jack. But they also haven't given his ideas and wishes any credence.

The media are clever, don't ever forget that. They love his beer and fags approach but which one followed up Nick Robinson's hard questioning ? They concentrated on the hard time he got, not the lack of answers.

As I said, not a single tabloid journalist has examined what UKIP represent. There again, in the last general election , Farage famously claimed he hadn't read his own manifesto.

The media built up an image. They haven't given policies any scrutiny because that would shatter said image. I have genuinely looked for what they would do if they ran a council. I am still none the wiser.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan conn
Date: 24 May 14 - 07:58 PM

Again stu i never said Scots had a monopoly on being welcoming. I compared the policies of the snp against ukip. I drew no comparison between Scotland and England and have no desire to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 14 - 05:15 PM

Shouldn't it be "Wither now, England" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:11 PM

Not one single reviewer, not a single journalist nor commentator has given UKIP policies and ideas credence

Crap. They're entirely a media creation, and the publishers and broadcasters responsible have blood on their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:04 PM

If you live in the EU, Switzerland and selected other countries your UK pension increases by the same amount as it does the UK. We get the GBP10 Xmas bonus as well.

AS for intelligence and education- if the Daily Wail, Sun, Mirror et al tell them white is black then Jack and Jill Average will believe it, more so if they can blame someone else for telling them otherwise. Independant thought, analysis and deduction are too much like hard work for them. Remember the NotW anti-paedophilia campaigh which resulted in a flash mob attacking a paediatrician......


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:48 AM

We certainly can Shimrod. But as you see, gullible impressionable fools have a vote, and that is still the best political system there is.

I would have thought that education and general intelligence would mean most people could see through the media coconut shy that makes Farage seem respectable.

Not one single reviewer, not a single journalist nor commentator has given UKIP policies and ideas credence. Their only credibility is from those taken in by irresponsible claims of a better tomorrow by blaming others for our situation.

No wonder his power base is Essex. Sophistication city....


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 14 - 10:24 AM

"This is not racism"

If it's not racism, it's certainly xenophobia. Unless you've been on the moon for the past week then you'd have seen our heard his interview during which the interviewer drew Farage's utterly unreasonable attitude to (amongst other things) people not speaking in English in trains and labelling all Romanians as antisocial.


"We may not agree with Mr Farage, but he has been straight with the electorate and they seem to be responding."

Where does this myth that Farage is "straight with the electorate" come from? Are people watching the same news reports? The man is the worst kind of hypocrite, and it's those voting for him he's laughing at as he takes their tax money for not representing our best interests in the European parliament. He's old establishment and not of the ilk of most of the people voting for him.

Furthermore, given the blanket coverage the BBC has given Farage (notice he's pretty much the ONLY person from the party to ever appear in the media, apart from one airing of the execrable Neil Hamilton on Question Time). The turd has been truly polished, and with our licence fee.


"There is no comparison between the inclusive welcoming (i.e. to incomers) nationalism of the SNP and the xenophobic rants of some UKIP candidates."

Yes, but no-one in these islands has the monopoly of being welcoming to incomers. England has always welcomed people to her shores and part of the strength of English society is its multicultural and diverse nature. It's reflected in our art, sport, music, literature and pretty much everything else. Heck, even our most popular dish is an Asian fusion concoction.

The problem is the Tories have imposed austerity in a way that means they can accomplish their idealogical aims of destroying the NHS and whipping up fear about johnny foreigner coming over here nicking our jobs.

Like I keep saying, we can do better than this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 14 - 09:06 AM

Shim, what motivates the electorate is hardly the fault of Mr Farage or his party, he has set out his argument against membership of the EU very well and also his opposition to unregulated immigration from EU countries.....This is not racism, and to infer that it is , is lazy and crass.

I remember the electorate voting en masse for a "liberal" Labour leader, who shamed us all by assisting the US in a war which cost many lives and left Iraq in a worse state than before.
We were never told of Mr Blair's intentions, the details of his deal with Bush have never been published. Don't talk to me about political manipulation!

We may not agree with Mr Farage, but he has been straight with the electorate and they seem to be responding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 05:26 AM

He certainly doesn't blame German immigrants even if he does Romanian ones. You see xenophobia is fear of all foreigners. Racism is distinguishing which to hate.

Eliza's unfortunate experiences show that any ideology can fall into the hands of those who would serve their country best by changing their odious approach.

Of course, the newspapers who built the monster up now have the opportunity to knock him back down again. Now he has a few councillors, their lack of coherent direction and policies can be scrutinised by those who put their faith in them.

I shudder to think what would crawl from under a stone if any of their nonsensical claims had substance. Who'd have thought a stockbroker would advocate losing the London Stock Exchange? If he gains enough MEPs, the Frankfurt stock exchange will have to put in planning permission for their larger premises...


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 May 14 - 04:22 AM

"Mr Farage does not blame the immigrants ..."

Questionable! Nevertheless, I strongly suspect that most of his supporters "blame the immigrants".


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:51 AM

"So this would presumably affect the not insignificant number of British pensioners who have retired to Scotland, if the split happens."

Don't know how many times things have to be repeated in the same thread. Re the Scottish gvt's White Paper any British citizen habitually resident in Scotland would automatically qualify as a Scottish citizen and re said white paper plus their paper on pensions existing pension rights will be protected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:35 AM

"Everybody at a very base personal level has fear and mistrust of others and likes to blame others for perceived predicaments"

You've got it wrong there old boy. Mr Farage does not blame the immigrants, I have heard him saying that he cant blame anyone from leaving a bankrupt, basket case of an economy, to come to a country where they can earn and send money back to their families.
That is simply self interest and self preservation.

Mr Farage blames a series of UK governments, for following a media, and short sighted economic agenda, which caused all the social and cultural predicaments.

Remember how UKIP was demonised by "liberals"? Their agenda has been scrutinised and found to be flawed......Surprised?

You want a capitalist economy, you must be prepared to exploit everything and everybody......but you must be sure you have the infrastructure to carry it off.   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 14 - 03:14 AM

We were accosted by two very rude ladies in Norwich last weekend. They were anti-UKIP and positively shouted at us not to vote for Farage's Party as it was terribly racist. They stuffed their leaflets into our reluctant hands, and one lady put her face right up to my husband's and bellowed, "Don't vote UKIP! They'll make things difficult for people like you!" (Meaning I suppose that as he's black, he'd better watch out.) He drew himself up and replied firmly, "I will vote for who I like, thank you!" I was quite proud of him. Not a very pleasant encounter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:43 AM

They certainly didn't "frock" to UKIP. That particular set of people don't like cross dressing poofters ! (My iPad makes those autocorrect mistakes too. I sympathise.)

Everybody at a very base personal level has fear and mistrust of others and likes to blame others for perceived predicaments. The likes of Farage play on this, as did the rise of fascism 80 or 90 years ago across Europe.

The UK resisted it then, including denouncing Mosely, so it is rather sad that with education, social mobility and opportunity, society has still failed a hell of a lot of people. Farage isn't the answer but the dismal intelligence of those who voted for him tells us a lot about the failures of present politicians and the lack of alternatives.

If most of their voters are one off protest, they are playing a dangerous game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 24 May 14 - 02:29 AM

According to the press, British politics has now got a fourth party. Was this a knee jerk protest vote or did the British public frock to a party prepared to address issues where other parties fear to tread ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: redhorse
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:28 PM

It's my understanding that British pensioners resident in another country don't get their state pension increased with inflation. Previously it was just those resident in non-EU countries that got heir pensions frozen, but I'm sure I read that the current government extended it to all countries.I think the argument (spin?) was that those not living in uk are not affected by uk inflation. Can anyone confirm this?

So this would presumably affect the not insignificant number of British pensioners who have retired to Scotland, if the split happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:13 AM

How about a federation? Separate governmanet and independence (whatever that means - all economies are inter-dependent nowadays)for Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland,with their own parliaments etc - but all represented at a Federal British Islands Forum, to replace the UK Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 08:06 AM

Any reason for reacting Keith?

This is a serious thread. Let's not pollute it with the tripe that informs your fixation with me. I'd be flattered if you happened to be a person of consequence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 14 - 07:51 AM

What kind of a person sees others as "little people of no consequence?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 06:41 AM

As we see, put the idea into some peoples' heads that sections of society aren't equal and they will believe any bullshit you can throw at them that there are reasons to "deal" with them.

You can even trawl threads here to see it. Luckily, the ones here are little people of no consequence, but a vote is still a vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 May 14 - 05:03 AM

It's the same old, old, old story, isn't it? If you want power, wait for one of those periods of economic instability and austerity, that capitalism produces at regular intervals, and then blame foreigners, outsiders and the poor and all of the ignorant, selfish, xenophobic nerds and gits will fall over themselves to vote for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:51 AM

I do wonder if there is a bigger picture here. The right are making gains across Europe, and the rise of austerity has coincided with the increasing inequality within our societies. I'm not sure I know a soul who believes that our politicians are anything but people in it for themselves, to accommodate big business and maintain the status quo. Thing is, Farage is a variation of the status quo, a sort of sub-species of right-winger and not a challenge to it at all; they want a blanket 33% tax rate, a policy that would plunge a fair number of their supporters into the poverty they fear.

We need to remember our own radical social history, give prominence to those who worked for the common good of all the people on our islands and beyond, and the English need to invoke the spirit of these people and embrace our natural desire to build a fair society. We are not the politicians, oligarchs and aristocracy of that rule without accountability and without compassion.

We are better than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:44 AM

Come on Stu you can look on the internet in discussion groups and on youtube etc on any subject and there are trolls and idiots throwing insults at each other. I'm talking about reality amongst the population as a whole. Amongst Scots in general there is not the festering hatred that you suggest - and the debate is not based on that.

The second comment that you're replying to was not my comment just in case anyone thinks it was. I have no truck with UKIP and the Daily Mail in Scotland has even been trying to liken Salmond to Farage over the past week or so. Which of course is ludicrous. There is no comparison between the inclusive welcoming (ie to incomers) nationalism of the SNP and the xenophobic rants of some UKIP candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:35 AM

Ask people if they want mass immigration and they will say no.

Ask people if they want doctors and nurses when they need them and they will say yes.

UKIP aren't a success story for far right thugs, they are a failure story for complacent incompetent present politicians.

If people actually thought, and serious commentators are providing the information to form a view, that UKIP in Brussels is a positive contribution to our influence and dealings with partners, or that their ideas as opposed to thought out policies would increase or even sustain growth, or even worse, that a gang of stockbrokers, bankrupted disgraced ex Tory politicians and racist thugs give a tuppenny toss about the poor and vulnerable in society....

It is interesting that the majority of people voting for them would suffer most under them.

To date, they have and will not have a single council. BNP put up many of the same candidates and got some council seats a few years ago. Most didn't run the course as you can't represent your ward from a prison cell. Their backgrounds get analysed by the media and the love in with Farage won't last forever.

The media only set you up in order to kick you back down.

If the voters want the smell of smoke again in public places, people being told their marriages are illegal, import tariffs on what they buy, export tariffs on what they sell and kicking out of NATO, carry on following the racist buffoon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:17 AM

"So don't quite know why you're throwing that at me."

Please don't take anything personally, I'm not throwing anything at individuals, just trying to stimulate discussion. Also, I'm in the Yes camp.

There is, deny it or not, much pejorative talk about 'the english' in this debate (not here perhaps, but go check out the comments sections on many of the major newspapers sites). This idea that there is some separation of us as a people beyond our regional cultures is simply wrong. There is a distancing (necessary to a degree, I understand) that has become something more; look south to see how that ends up.

"No matter how much we deny it, UKIP is saying what the electorate want to hear."

Given that the media have given Farage a campaigning platform on every bulletin this is hardly surprising. You could put a used bog roll up for election and it'd poll high with that amount of airtime. It's easy to scapegoat certain parts of the population in times of austerity. The fact UKIP hate anyone not british, women and homosexuals makes their job easier as we seem to be undergoing some sort of social regression as a society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:16 AM

Latest paper released by the Westminster government:

SCOTS can expect to remain ­British citizens if they vote for independence, the UK Government has conceded.


In its latest analysis of the consequences of independence, focusing on borders and citizenship, it says it is likely that Scots would be able to hold dual Scottish and British nationality.

The next generation of Scots would also be British, the paper suggests, as children inherit citizenship under present UK rules.

Their children would not be British, as British citizens outside the UK cannot pass on their citizenship more than one generation.

As British citizens, Scots would keep their existing passports and continue to qualify for UK consular help abroad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:12 AM

UKIP make large gains all over England, despite a huge propaganda campaign by the media, to smear the party as racist and homophobic.

An example. Mr Jon Snow anchor man of Channel 4 news, when interviewing Mr Farage on his stance on Europe, made the following snide smear.   "Mr Farage, I hesitate to use the word "black" in front of you, but wouldn't you accept that you are a bit of a black sheep in the European Parliament?"

I don't agree with all of UKIPS policies, but these results provide a well deserved slap on the face to the people who think their ideology should apply to and be adopted by, everyone in the UK..... who accept no alternative views and discount whole swathes of what used to be known as the silent majority.

Congratulations to a brave man who spoke his mind against the combined power of the media, and found his ideas reflected in a large part of UK society.    Well done England, and I hope the Scottish people will continue the revolution against cant and idiocy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:52 AM

That's reassuring, thank you Allen. She really loves Scotland and would never consider coming south now.
Won't it be interesting to see how everyone voted yesterday? I've spoken to several friends in the village and they say they intended to vote UKIP but changed their minds at the last minute and voted Green!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Whither now England?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 May 14 - 02:30 AM

Another point Eliza. You say she has never worked in England so wonder what will happen to her NHS pension? In truth though it is an NHS Scotland Pension Scheme that she will be in. The NHS is not one single UK wide institution and never has been. The Scottish and the Northern Irish National Health Services run their own pension schemes seperate from the scheme run by the NHS in England and Wales.


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